tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC July 7, 2016 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
u r -- police use and deadly force. and other parts of the country. we have been covering this live, during the special edition of the last word, which has become live coverage of the situation >> good evening from new york. i'm lawrence o'donnell. breaking news at this hour, there are reports of shots fired at a protest demonstration in dallas. those shots resulted in the shooting of two police officers, according to reports, who were reportedly injured. again, unconfirmed reports that there is a sniper with a long gun still at the scene. this was the scene in dallas within the last hour. [ siren ]
>> get out of the way. >> that chaotic scene comes against the backdrop of growing demonstrations and vigils around the country, including this one tonight in dallas where this shooting has occurred. the demonstrations and vigils have been about killings by police, the two killings we have seen on video this week, of alton sterling in baton rouge, louisiana and philandro castile in falcon heights, minnesota. i will go to cal. what do you have? >> latest from dallas police, please be patient while we sort out all the information in what is still an active scene. the gunman is still not in custody. the latest is the omni hotel in
downtown dallas. it seems like the crime scene is moving and you can see them taking cover behind that police car. i'm told we now have audio of the gunshot, if we can go ahead and play that. [ gunshot ] [ gunshots ] >> somebody is really armed to the teeth. this is not one person. [ gunshots ] >> this is a person with a big magazine.
>> i want to go to james cavnan nar. that estimate we heard of possibly 60 shots fired is possible. >> it's really echoing. you can't tell if it's one gun echoing or two shooters. it's hard to count the shots when you get those echo effects in the city, but that's probably a rifle probably from an elevated position. it will be very difficult for police to find this position if they moved out of there quickly, the area is so large. downtown dallas is so large, so many caverns, unless you get a bead on his location quick and that's the challenge they're fa facing. dallas swathd, one of the best in the country.
dallas fbi division has a big s.w.a.t. team there and atf has a regional tactical team there. >> we have breaking news. >> two separate police officers hit with gunfire, one taken to baylor hospital and the other to parkland. police have the shooter cornered in the downtown area and speaking to him through a negotia negotiator. it seems they have the shooter cornered. the other thing about that video police are talking about, it sounded like controlled fire, not indiscriminate fire. >> let's go back to you on this. you've been in in these negotiating situations like this. what happens now? >> it's talk talk talk. if he's barricaded by himself, this is the best thing. it's good news they can even find him. that's good work. if they have found him and have him isolated and he's by himself
that. that changes everything. you can slow back down, tacky -- tactical can get in perimeter right and if everybody is under cover, they'll draw him out. he'll talk. he's there for a purpose. it doesn't mean it might end -- he could kill himself. he could still be talked into surrendering himself. the main question is, is he alone. they have him surrounded but is he alone. >> knowing the area as well as you do, if a shooter went there with the intention of escaping, firing some number of shots and esca escaping, how easy would that have been? >> it would have been easier probably if he hadn't fired so many rounds. i would have thought that witnesses could picked up his muzzle flash and saw him. historically just blocks from here when jfk was killed it was a dallas motorcycle cop marion
baker riding in the president's motorcade and heard the shots, 1, 2, 3, right in front of him and saw the pigeons fly in front of a book depository and said the shots must have come from there and he was the first person to confront lee harvey oswald inside the book depository. many forget he was released by the superintendent and said he was a book employee. and they may have a situation like that tonight when all those shots were fired. muzzle flashed and sounds picked up and officers were able to get a bead on his location and squeeze it down until they have him located. that's good work. >> let's go back to that video where we can hear the shots fired. [ gunshot ]
[ gunshot ] [ gunshots ] >> somebody's really armed to the teeth. this is not -- this is not one person. this is a person with a big magazine, a few magazines. >> now, breaking news from our local affiliate in dallas rep t reporting two officers shot. seven people injured. the extent of the injuries unknown at this time. that latest update now confirmed is two officers shot, seven people injured. you just heard the gunfire that produced those wounds to those police officers and the injuries that we now have reported, the seven injuries. mark claxton, when we hear the audio, video and audio of those
shots, we hear police sirens going before we hear these shots fired. but in a large demonstration like this tonight, you could hear at random moments i suppose, police vehicle s with some siren on them not necess y necessarily in reaction to shots fired. >> i was just about to say that. it's not necessarily responding to the shots fired, maybe some other emergency call or as part of the movement that's going on with the protests, demonstrat n demonstrations themselves, too. this is really disturbing and horrific, as indicated earlier, this is a police officer's nightmare situation here. you just have to pray for the safety of all individuals involved. that means the civilian population that's out there and police officers that are resp d responding to apprehend this shooter or these shooters. >> when you hear that audio of
the number of shots fired, and we have one witness who was there who estimated it to be 60, which the video indicates it could well have been, in that neighborhood, it is remarkable that what we're recoporting nows two officers wounded, seven people injured in this situation. by the way, the injuries could include falling while running and some kind of stampede situation. we don't know that all of those injuries are gunshot injuries but some of them certainly could be if not most of them. when you hear that number of shots fired we are lucky tonight we are not reporting higher numbers. >> nothing short of a miracle, actually, if we're fortunate enough not to have any fatali fatalities. you're talking about some high powered weaponry there, semi-automatic weapon there, multiple rounds in a large group
of people. we have police officers mixed in with civilians. it would be miraculous collectively if we walk away relatively unscathed, if there are no fatalities and minimal injuries, it would be a tremendous miracle. >> mark, talk about the police officer's reaction on the street. you've been in that uniform in situations on the streets of new york. here they were out there, very peaceably as a police force covering, monitoring a demonstration in which things were going so smoothly that the police were tweeting about it. suddenly, shots fired, they have training patterns they're supposed to swing into at that point. and presumably, through their radios and communications with each other, the word spreads as they're trying to do their job office protecting people, of
stopping this shooter, the word spreads to them that there are two officers wounded. >> right. >> what kicks in there is the police officer's training. these are times it is true you don't get paid for what you do, you get paid for what you may have to do one day and automatically professionally trained police officers can easily position from crowd control into a clearing out, into a more militarized or structured enforcement model when you're attempting to apprehend individuals. that's all part of police training and happens in the drop of a dime and many different scenarios. everything happens out of the blue. at one point there could be peace, the next point, there could be panic. you as a police officer have to maintain a certain level of
professionalism and be able to operate under the most stressful situati situations. that's why it is an honorable profession and those of white house have engaged in it are very proud of that, along with the respect police officers receive, there is an awesome responsibility and obligation you have to take very seriously and you have to be prepared for nights like this. >> this is certainly the proof of that. we have new video from a witness at the scene. let's watch that. >> while we were making our round down main street to the red brick house, we were making our second lap. as we were going toward like the center towards el centro, we heard shots, we heard like -- we smelt gunpowder. that's when everything got really really intense and really really surreal. you heard gunfire, you heard
people like you heard a dogfight. ain't no one could no what was going on. we started to run and grab kids and help their mothers get somewhere safe. we didn't want any else to get hurt. >> reporter: what's the dilemma you're in on the street corner? >> i'm trying to get home so i don't get hurt like somebody else. >> reporter: it's been an emotional night. >> see -- i'm tired of waking up every morning and seeing the same thing over and over and over again and no one has any answers, so we take to the streets and we say, all right, don't shoot. and the same thing happens. >> we're going to go back to play the video that includes the sound of the shots that he just described. [ gunshot ]
>> somebody's really armed to the teeth. this is not -- this is not one person. this is a person with a big magazine, a few magazines. [ gunshots ] >> scott friedman is a reporter with kxas in dallas. he is on the scene right now. scott joins us by phone. what's the situation now? >> lawrence, a couple minutes ago officers came by and asked me and people standing by to move back from the corner where we're at and advised us to stick close to the sides of buildings as we walked away from that location for our own safety. one of the officers said to me his understanding is they
possibly have a suspect cornered at this point and it's still an active situation, it's not safe to be any closer to the scene than where we are right now. >> scott, did you get any indication that that officer knows where the shooter is corn cornered? >> i don't have that information, lawrence. we had heard earlier police radio traffic indicating it may be in or around a building at el central college at dallas. we have to caution that's information police are reporting over the radio in a very chaotic situation. we don't have confirmation of that from officers here at the scene. >> we have video of officers in some situations ducking behind c cars, looking up possibly in the direction of where that shooter would be. scott, what's left of the crowd that you were there to cover at that demonstration?
>> lawrence, i got here afterward. after the shooting happened. i was not here to cover the protest. there are folks around me now who were part of that group. a lot of them are just waiting outside restaurants or standing on corners a little bit back from the action here, many of them trying to get back to their cars or trying to get to a train to leave the area and they're just not able to move very much right now because again, police are at each street corner here in the west end of downtown delays and are preventing people from moving across many of those streets. >> scott, what about the conduct, the behavior of the crowd at this point? are they just silent bystanders now to what's happening? >> everybody very calm. a lot of people walking by me a minute ago shaking their heads about the whole situation, some sitting at tables, texting friends or family from here,
very calm where i'm at. again, this is an area that spans a number of blocks. it may be different at other ends of the scene here than where i'm at. i can only tell you what i can see from my vantage point, at one end of it. >> i want to go to lewesley lowery, a pulitzer prize winner from the "washington post." i want to get your reaction to what you're seeing tonight. >> it's horrified the idea that any has been injured much less police officers or dem straion r demonstrators. it's preliminary and i've been following eagerly the reporters on the ground there as they're interviewing witnesses and what not. we know very often in these crowds it creates opportunities for trouble makers one way or the other. i'm eager to hear more and hopefully obviously the time for conversation about what exactly
happened comes after the active incident is over and it seems unclear that's even the case yet. >> you've been covering police use of deadly force and the demonstrations that follow in many places around the country, you've seen police departments out there on nights like this with crowds like this. >> yes. >> overwhelmingly peaceful, most of them, this one tonight, completely peaceful, friendly even, all reports it was a friendly atmosphere with police who were there tonight. >> when i first got an e-mail from a colleague or text from a colleague alerting me to what was going on, i was shocked and surprised because dallas has a reputation, while there are certainly complaints among community members of the police department, there is a reputation for a department that takes seriously its image with the community.
it seemed like a friendly and in some extension jovial reaction of activists and the police department. this was not one of the mo standoff type of protests what i had been seeing via local reporters. it was surprising. like i said earlier, when you have massive groups of people no matter where that is, ferguson, new york, dallas, that does create a cover of the crowd, someone looking to do something and someone looking to cause harm can be anonymous in part because of the danger and officers i've talked to and i'm eager to hear more of what happened once the suspects are taken into custody and praying any officers involved or any else injured will be okay. >> i want to go back to scott friedman of kxas on dallas.
he is on the street, the scene there near where shots were fired, joining us by phone. caulk to us about the dallas police relationship with the local community the way the dallas police handles a situation like tonight, a demonstration like tonight under normal conditions. >> one of our other reporters out here covering the protests tonight said there were moments in the crowd police were even posing for pictures with some of the protesters. we've seen that happen before in some incidents and other parts of the country where there have been marches, they've been very pea peaceful. dallas police have done a lot to try to aleve concerns in the community and try to build those relationsh relationships. so this is very surprising to everybody tonight. this was not anticipated to be a very tense protest or situation where any felt concerned about this kind of thing, i think,
heading into it. >> scott, it wasn't expected to be tense because of the way the dallas police conducted themselves in these kinds of situati situations, because there is a general lack of tension there between the community and the police? what would be the set of particulars that would allow people to expect in dallas this will go smoothly? >> i think it's just the way those marches have been handle here before. it's been police who dealt very politely with protesters and groups that have conducted the marches here over the last year or so as we've had incidents in other parts of the country have also tended to have a fairly good relationship with the officers at least there after the location of the protest. not to say like any major city there aren't situations here there are community concerns about police or where there may be friction between police and
the community. as far as these protests have gone, we have not seen violence during those events. >> we now have an updated report on the number of injuries and sadly we are increasing the number of police officers to three who are injured. the previous report indicated two officers shot. we now have a report of three officers injured, apparently three officers shot. seven people injured. we don't know how they were injured or the extent of those injuries are. we don't know if they're gunshot wounds or what happened after the chaos occurred. scott, we have the report yet another officer injured shot in this situation, three officers shot. if no one else was shot, if
others were injured in some other way, possibly the movement of the crowd, the rush of the crowd, whatever, this would s e surely indicate then that the shooter was aiming at police officer s. >> yeah. we don't know because it's been so chaotic and speak with police officer s to get a sense of what happened. the one witness i spoke to at a location where one officer was hit said they could not tell where the shots were coming from. he heard multiple shots. they appeared to him to be coming from somewhere above. other officers in the area were looking up to try to determine the direction of the fire. >> i want to go back to wesley lowery in washington, "washington post." the "washington post" has been the leader journalistically on the subject of police use of deadly force. the "washington post" trying to,
what would be the first time in our history, get an accurate count of the number of people killed by police in the united states in a given year. it's one of the statistics in the country that has collected statistics on everything, it's one of the neglected statistics that has not been collected. these demonstrations tonight around the country were about what the demonstrators to believe to be improper unjustifiable use of police deadly force. here we have the horrible other side of that story, which is the fear that police officers live with at all times, that they never know when the next shot or a shot may be fired at them. now, the truth of life in police work is that most police offi r officers are never shot at, they never hear gunfire in the course of their entire careers and never called upon to draw or
fire their guns in their entire care careers. that's how statistically rare it is. you can't talk about how statistically rare it is when you're taubing about the individual cases of people killed by police who these demonstrations were about tonight or the horrible situation of these three officers being shot in dallas tonight. >> exactly. what we see here is a nightmare. what we've seen the last two days is a nightmare, interaction that ends either with injury or a death, whether that be death at the hands of a police officer, the end of their gun or injury in terms of an officer being targeted. what we know and difficult for us as a nation and we talk about this, very often historical justice policing is governed by emotion. we don't always have accurate data. >> i have to drop you with our latest report that is tragic.
it is now a confirmed report of four officers shot in the last two minutes, the number of officers shot is up by two, up to four and tragically, one officer dead. we have one officer dead in this horrible situation that has developed in dallas tonight and four shot. i want to go back to jim cavanaugh. you worked with the dallas police department there. you know the area very well. to have any situation in which more than one officer is shot in any police department anywhere is one of the great tragedies and rare things to occur. here, we have three shot, wounded, one dead. >> it's devastating, lawrence. it's heartbreaking. the tweet you just showed up there is from the d.a.r.t. police, the dallas area rapid transit police. they ride the buses and trains,
a force of 300 officers. dallas police is 3500 officers. they work with dallas police, fully accredited officers, just their mission is transit. they may have been near a bus or train or bus station and they were targeted because they had a uniform on. it's going to be devastating to the d.a.r.t. police department and dallas area law enforcement community to lose an officer like that. let's hope they pull through. the other thing is the rifles, a devastating wound, a military weapon and can really hurt. as we've seen, they are fatal y fatalities. >> we have confirmation s.w.a.t. team negotiates are talking to the gunman. negotiato negotiators. >> that's a positive step if they're talking to him, he's alone, more positive.
they will be able to deal with him, win that barricaded gunman situation. dallas pd is very good. if they have him and they're talking with him and he's alone, i would say this thing is on a downward slope. >> i don't want to get ahead of ourselves. if they're talking to him, that means they know where he is or is it possible they would be talking to him by phone and not know where he is at this point? >> right. they could have him possibly in a large area they don't actually see him. they may have him penned in somewhere and able to somehow communicate with him. he may be in a large building, parking area, who knows, somewhere they were able to communicate with him and it him somehow. they could be talking to him just yelling or police hailer,
yelling at him or talking to him on his cell phone and could have gotten his identity from a license plate some way and call his cell phone. or he can reach out and say what he's doing, i'm here to kill police officers and they can call 911, somehow whether it's yelling at him or through a loud speaker or cell phone, they're talking to him. that's the first step of diff e diffusing everything and saving even his life. the police will try to save his life and end this thing. >> we're joined by clint van zant law enforcement analyst. what's your position at this point in what is now a real tragedy. one dallas police officer shot and three wounded? >> i watched this start to unfold, lawrence, about 10:00 a.m. east coast time. i was watching a dallas
affiliate at the time. if you've seen those clips or shown them to the audience, really horrific, they're like combat clips one would see in an overseas environment. in that, you see one officer for sure, sprawled on the street and not moving. you see a second officer shot down behind a car and the other officer pinned down. i heard your conversation with my good friend, jim cavanaugh. when you hear an assault rifle start cranking off and hear those multiple rounds, that's something street officers don't deal with normally, they carry handguns and used to confronting knives, maybe other handguns but you get them with an assault rifle or sniper like these persons were performing, that
puts police at a real disadvantage as well as civil n civilians. if this count is right with one officer dead and potentially three wounded and a number of civilians down, what we're told may be two shooters have created a tremendous amount of damage. jim cavanaugh and i are both hostage negotiators and both talked people out of situations like this even when they've been shooting in the past. i agree with jim, if law enforcement has these people corn cornered, there's a good chance they can get them to say what they want to say and get them back out. but it could be a person who called in and picked up a phone in a building. >> we have an update now and the updates are coming fast and tragically and the numbers are going up here as they have already. from the dallas police chief we
have a confirmation that there have been two snipers involved. 10 officers shot, three officers dead at this point. in dallas. that is from the dallas police chief saying there are two sn e snipers, know one in custody, two snipers involved in this. they have shot 10 officer, three of those officers now dead. that is the latest. clint, tragically, just sitting here, we saw this wounded count of police officers double over a matter of just a couple of minutes and then five minutes later we saw it go up again. we can only hope that it stops here. the news there are two snipers involved helps explain this very large number of shots we heard in the audio, the video that includes the audio of the shots
fired. >> it's very easy if someone has -- one or two people have a semi-automatic assault style rifle with a magazine anywhere from 15 to 30 rounds, semi-automat semi-automatically, you can dump the rounds in that magazine fairly quickly. if you have the high ground and you're shooting on those men and women in blue, they're pretty standout targets. the normal body wear a police officer wears during the day probably won't stop a very heavy caliber semi-automatic round. sometimes those rounds can punch right through the routine body armor. whether it was planned event over a period of time or whether it just generated based upon the shootings the last two days across the country, these individuals came in to kill, it sounds like, came in to target police and get as many rounds off as they could and perhaps hit as many police officers as
they could also. the challenge is getting your hands on them before they get out of the area. again, i know you talked to jim about that and how it's going to depend on the mentality of the shooter, the snipers. do they want to stay, fight, gain notoriety, kill more people and then die some type of hero's death or do they want to sneak away perhaps to be able to do this again. law enforcement knows what they want. they'd like to communicate, talk, get them pinned down in one place and resolve this with no one else being hurt. with this many police down, this many civilians injured, i'm sure law enforcement will throw everything they have from a local level, federal, state, to try to close this perimeter in and get these shooters trapped inside a perimeter before they're able to escape and then we've got this long term investigation trying to identify the shooters.
>> we now have the written statement from chief brown. the chief of dallas police. i want to read it a tragic statement to read. tonight it appears two snipers shot 10 police officers from elevated positions during the protest rally. three officers are deceased, two are in surgery and three in critical condition. an intensive search for spurkuss is currently under way. no arrest is made at this time and asking if you have information call wo 146713482. we will provide more information once it's available. please keep us in your thoughts and prayers tonight. we are joined now in dallas by nbc news producer, al henkel. what's the situation where you are? >> the situation is confusing
right now at best. the statement you just read from chief david brown of the dallas police pretty much says it all. the rally was very peaceful and was winding down, according to most witnesses and shots rang out obviously targeting the police. several of the officers have been taken to parkland hospital. you can see from video from the scene at parkland hospital that there is a police officer with a long gun guarding ambulances as they come in. the affiliate here reported that a police car screamed up to the emergency room exit, a woman and a child got out. we can assume from that, it's the family of one of the wounded officers. i'm sure it will be a very long night for police here in dallas. >> what do we know, if anything, about the positioning of the sho shooters, this report there are
two snipers, do we have any indication whether they are together or in separate locations? >> we don't know that. the only official statement we have is the one you just read from chief david brown, that they shot from elevated posit n positions. there's a parking garage by the park where the rally is happening and you assume shots came from that elevated parking garage. we don't know anything for sure yet. >> we had some reports indica indicating that the police are in negotiations with at least one of the shooters. can you confirm that? >> that, i cannot confirm or deny other than no suspects are in custody at this time is all the chief would say. i don't know if they're talking to them or just don't know where they are. >> we have some new video we're just going to show you because i can't tell you what it is, meaning i don't know. we will go to that video now.
[ gunshots ] >> they're shooting right now and there's an officer down. it's coming from the right over there, from around these buildings. i don't know where. main street and lamar. main street and lamar. . there's an officer down. they're moving in on somebody. . >> i think they might have got somebody.
>> don't worry. i'm behind a tree. i think another officer is down around the corner over here. they've got s.w.a.t. over here. i can't really. i can't really get any closer. i'm safe, man, don't worry about it. i appreciate it, though. i love y'all. so they just dragged one of the officers in the police car here. there's somebody else down over there. you can see around this corner, i don't know if y'all can see that. >> get out of there, get out of there. >> they're telling me to go. i've got to go.
i got everything, man, got it everything. all right. i'm going to have to switch over to another app because i've got to get my boss -- >> two extraordinary videos, that first one in the crowd that was marching along as the first shots were fired. and we see terror break out on the streets of dallas with the sound of those shots fired. and then that video we just saw apparently by michael bautista, where he is very very close to the action and seems to be narrating it with an amazing steadiness and able to see things that we can't quite see within what he's framed for us. that number of shots that we heard in that video sounds like even more than what we'd heard
in the earlier video. >> right. i suspect there's some return officers firing here as well. these shooters now, we heard a report of two shooters firing that many rounds, you will have a lot of muzzle flashes. they will zero in on the rounds, the patrol officers are and there will be some gunfire back from the shooters towards police trying get their colleagues to safety and pulled behind the cars there. they were dealing with somebody at the entrance of the parking garage, not quite clear, if that actually was a shooter and you discussed it, reports of negotiations, are they negoti e negotiating. that's all unclear at the moment. it's devastating, 10 officers shot, three dead, unbelievable to happen in an american city at this time and age, and the
families that will be hurt by this, so terrible. >> a night that began with demonstrations and vigils across the country in reaction by shootings from police captured on video this week in baton rouge and minnesota. that night has now ended in dallas with the shooting of 10 police officers, three confirmed dead at the hands of two sni snipers, according to chief david brown, of the dallas police department. authorities have indicated that there will be some sort of press conference possibly in about 20 minutes. clint van zant, the scheduling of a press conference, can we take that as possibly indication that this situation mayby under control? >> the plays may feel it's stabilized right now, lawrence. the best case would be the two
believed snipers are in custody at this point or perhaps one in custody and one escaped far enough away where they felt it was safe to do this. having been in these chases before, police don't start feeling safe until they get that second person in custody. there will be, especially with this blood letting tonight, there's going to be a lot of different city, county, state and federal agencies on the street trying to put this together and trying to find anybody else involved, as the night goes on. press conferences are fine, but it looks like cops will be be beating up shoe leather tonight trying to find out who did this before they do it again tomorrow night. >> we're joined now by phone, by morgan lyons, communications director for the dallas area rapt transit police department. sir, could you tell us
everything you can confirm for us at this point, in terms of the number of officers shot, dea deaths, injuries, as much detail you can give us about th thisizatiothis izati situation? >> right, lawrence. i don't have a lot of additional information. i'm with the transit authority. the reports we have four of our officers, d.a.r.t. police officers were shot this evening. they were in different locations. three of the officer's injuries are not life-threatening, however, unfortunately one of our officers is deceased. we're not releasing any identification because we're working to notify family members. our officers were working with dallas police and other officers this evening during the prote protests. >> did the transit police have duties that were in any way different from the dallas police
tonight? >> no. our officers are sworn texas peace officers just like dallas police officers. they have a similar jurisdiction. we cover 13 cities 700 square miles, light rail, commuter buses. they were working downtown. all four of our rail lines plus the trinity express commuter rail line comes to downtown. all our service has been suspended in the heart of downtown. we've been able to open up bus service on the eastside. typically in a situation like this, we're working with dallas police and focusing on our as t assets. we have a number of stations in downtown for the four light rail lines and commuter line and a lot of our bus service. our officers were deployed at various locations, primarily in
and around our facilities. because it's downtown, we touch pretty much every part of downtown. >> mr. lyons, i want to thank you for joining us tonight on this very difficult night for dallas and you personally as member of the law enforcement community down there, to have police officers attacked like this, four of your officers in your department shot, one dead, a total of 10 officers shot, three dead. from these two snipers. i just want you to give us some feeling about the personal repercussions for this. you have five officers in your department whose families have to be notified, four of them -- actually four officers shot. >> four officers. >> but the one deceased. could you tell us what you've been able to do in terms of communication with those families and what aid you've been able to give to those
fami families, particularly in the case of the officer you lost in the line of duty tonight. >> thanks for those sentiments. as you can understand, this is an incredibly fluid situation. we're working to make contact with family members. i know particularly in the case of the deceased officer, we're trying to take care of that now. that may have happened in the last bit and i'm just not aware of those details. we have had staff deployed to the hospitals where the officers were taken. tonight, those of us -- the d.a.r.t. police department is an essential part of dallas area rapid transit. there are 3700 employees who just lost a colleague. >> mr. lyons, again, i'm very very sorry for what's happened there. i know in new york city, the
transit police was, for a very long time, a separate police department. >> that's the case here. >> but eventually they recognized the fact that their duties were exactly the same and the transit police were merged into the nypd. i think some people around the country that don't have transit police force might think there's some different level of jeopardy or lower level of responsibility. what we see here tonight is that the officers in your department were obviously tragically, as much on that front line as the regular dallas police officers. the losses that you have suffered in your department are statistically disproportionately high compared -- you're a department of about 300, is that correct? >> we have 200 sworn officers and then support staff and enforcement officers.
yes. it's quite difficult. if you don't mind, i hate to cut you off, but i've got to take some other calls and try to respond to other things and get additional information. i apologize, lawrence, i appreciate your courtesy but i hope you understand i need to move on. >> morgan lyons, greatly appreciate your time and very very sorry for your loss. >> thank you much. >> thank you. we now have the sound of a new eyewitness to what happened there tonight. let's listen to this. >> i was walking and the sniper just started shooting, man, like all the cops were getting shot. i just saw cops bending over. there had to be like five or six cops they were all getting shot down. it was right after the rally. we were just walking to the car, like all the cops. >> how many? >> i saw about three. i saw three. we was running. they kept shooting them. we don't know where it's coming from. i didn't see anybody else get shot, it was just the cops.
>> jim cavanaugh, i want to get your reaction to what we just heard from morgan lyons, who represents the rapid transit police department you had told us earlier is a relatively small group and almost half of the officers shot were from that much smaller department. talk about the impact on that smaller department of a signatur situation like this. >> yeah. it has a tremendous impact. four officers of 200 officers have been shot. it really devastate s an agency. i dan take you back to atf we had four killed at waco, four men dead in one day. it impacts your agency and people. we had a lot of other agents wounded. those things are devastating. d.a.r.t. is suffering tonight and dallas pd as well, we're y
sayisay ing 10 officers shot and three dead, they're a tight-knit group, too, they're large but a family. they're a great force. i worked with them daily when i was there and respected so much, dallas p.d., a great police force and to see that happen to them is awful. >> clint van zant, given what we just heard from the witness about the chaos, given everything wae've heard and the different videos that captured the sound of the gunfire, talk about what it's like to be on the ground there as a police officer and you're in the middle of that wchaos, trying to determine where the threat is coming to you.
>> i have been in that chaos and i'm sure jim has, too. part of your training kicks in. you're looking where the threat is coming from and looking to put something between you and the threat that will stop bul t bullets. you want to cover yourself and want protection concealment. you have a job to get the shooter. you're calculating numbers, do i go myself? wait for one or two other officers? do i wait for s.w.a.t. and if we do, he might get away. there are a lot of calculations going on. when i saw the early pictures when the shooting first took place and saw that police car brokeen down in the middle of the street and saw one and two officers proned out in the middle of the street. they weren't proned out trying to keep low, they were shot and not moving, you knew this was really really going to be bad.
it was really going to go down the very hard way. and then the challenge of trying to locate the shooters, where they're at, get a perimeter around them, shoot them out and get a dialogue going. >> let me stop you with breaking news we have. this situation is not near being settled. gunfire is still continuing. the dallas police chief just reported an 11th officer has been shot in what is continuing gunfire at this time. clint, that certainly changes or gives us a much more specific feel of what we're discussing here. we thought we were discussing something that had entered the negotiations stage with the shooter or shooters. we are back to the shooting stage. >> well, we don't yet know accurately how many shooters we have, lawrence. that seems to be the challenge, too. we're told the number two.
but you and i know from the reporting many times it's not accurate when it first comes out. we have to keep playing and working this and finding what we have. it can be three different sho shooters in three different pla places. it could be a shooter and somebody negotiating together from the same point. there's a lot going on. "the posthe positive would be i enforcement had them circled in an area you couldn't shoot down. you and i are at texas and let's go back to the texas tower sh t shooting a former military student got up on top that texas tower and was mowing students down from hundreds of yards away and the only way to stop him were two or three cops saying we have to do something about it and forcing their way all the way up to that texas tower to engage the shooter.
it could be a scenario like that, too. if police can get ahold of one or two individuals and talk. it's hard to talk and shoot at the same time. we'd much rather have somebody talking. if they've made up their mind they will continue this sho shooting, it will eventually lead law enforcement to them. law enforcement will have enough firepower to stop this situation. as you just told us, yet another life is in danger and another life may die. we don't know how many more times this is going to last, this night until either these killers are captured or killed or somehow stopped from what they're doing. the police are frustrated because they're working as hard as they can. >> we have an updated written statement from the chief of dallas police i will read to you including a person of interest.
his written now says an 11th officer was shot during an exchange exchange of gunfire with one of the suspects. the officer is being transferred to the hospital. we have a person of interest. please share this picture and help us identify this person. citizens are asked not to approach. as you can see from the picture, this suspect is armed and dangerous. we're going straight to the press conference now. >> these suspects were positi positioning themselves in a way to try ang late on these officers from two different perches in garages in the downtown area and planned to injure and kill as many law enforcement officers as they could. we are reaching out to the families of all these officers and getting them transported to the hospital so we will ask for your prayers for these families
and we ask that you give our officers strength to catch these suspects and bring them to justice tonight. if any has information about these suspects, please, please call the dallas police department. call 911 and give us that information, so we can bring these people to justice. we also believe that these suspects have threatened to plant a bomb in the downtown area. we have reached out to our federal law enforcement partners, both the fbi and the atf, to help us search for both the suspects or maybe it's more, and to do a very thorough search of this area where we believe there might be a bomb planted. again, i will quickly take some questions but i want to remind
you, we've got one of these suspects cornered and i need to get back and take care of the business of protecting this city. >> let me finish and then we'll take the questions. okay? i ask everybody to focus on one thing right now. that is dallas police officers, the families, those that are deceased, those that are in the hospital fighting for their lives, let's all come together and support our police officers. i've never been as proud. i believe we have one of the best forces in the nation and we've done things with civil rights in the right way and we've done it for the safety of our citizens, so, please, let's come together right now as a city. let's take some questions. >> talk about the pictures you guys want to put out. who are these people you're
looking for in the pictures. you handed a bunch of these out. >> we wanted to show a person of interest who witnesses at the scene say were involved in the sho shooting, it witnesses at the scene say was involved in this shooting in some way. so this is a person of interest, as you can see, they're in camouflage, and they have a rifle strapped, slung, with the butt sticking up. we know that rifles were used to injure and kill dallas officers and our d.a.r.t. officers. so if anyone knows or recognizes this picture, please, immediately call 911. do not approach this suspect. we'll bring him to justice. [ inaudible question ]