tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC July 7, 2016 11:00pm-12:01am PDT
to consider will there be more suspect and booby traps. police may say lets hold back and lock gas in if it is a close location. they'll try to do these i true s true -- intrusive way to neut l neutralize the shooters. we would be working very hard trying to hook this guy just like a fisherman goes out and tries to hook a trout. we psychologically trying to hook that guy and trying to reeling him in about 85% of the time we are able to do it. there is a lot of cars and wrong side of this guy's death. he may well thinks he wants to die. the police are going to be there and they'll accommodate this.
they have to keep him contained so that gunfire hopefully is not going anywhere out on the streets where other civilians or police getting injured. >> veteran of the fbi and a veteran profiler, one of the people we turn to. sadly, because we cover mass sho shootings in the country far too often. we now want to bring in congresswoman jackson lee. i am told we are accomplishinaccomplishing accomplishinaccomplishing accomplishing -- establishing. >> democratic of the state of texas. congresswoman are you here with us? >> yes, i am. i guess we are all equal in being in our sadness and shocked that this is happening in the streets of not just american city of dallas texas in near home state. i am curious of your thoughts at
this hour. >> we are overwhelmed and we are shocked because we valued america to be engaged in peaceful protest and we also value of the work of men and women who serve as law enforcement. this is another mass shooting and a direct attack on the men and women who wear uniforms of law enforcement. there is no doubt. we realized that they are there to protect americans who are protesting. we thank them for that. you can clearly see it. we know in dallas there is been a great effort engaging in the community to involve with policing and representing houston. we work very hard with our police and law enforcement agencies.
i am sad because i believe that what we saw today was directed to divide and to use this peaceful protest to attack law enforcement officers. that's the scary part. we have the gruesome death of castillo and sterling. the scary part is if this is what and what you and i suspected it to be, it is a terrible thing, a gruesome thing to have been planned and executed in the short amount of time that would have taken to plan and execute this. >> that's the case. we expect that there will be protests regarding of the actions of officers and many
officers will tell you that they do not appreciate this. in fact there are protests right here in washington dc. and so if there are those peaceful protests that'll be going on will use it to turn this into an ugly and disaster way. it attacks on protesters as they are marking. as we look at the video you can see the vast of protests of children and grandparents and families. when we were watching in washington, there were families protesting peacefully marching. now, we have to find out whether there is conspiracy of the
circumstances of citizens have come together protecting in the line of duty and the other petitioning which we do all the time. we have to be alert. it is important for the fbi to be engaged and dallas officers are working a great deal, we determine at gun point where the motives were and this protest will continue throughout throughout the days of the week >> thank you for being with us. >> we are reacting to this awful news. cal perry is part of our team here in new york monitoring not just social media but official statements and photographs and what police know and what they believe they know. that's going been a moving kind
of liquid thing all night as these numbers have gone north. >> yeah, during the news conference by the dallas police chief, some of our viewers maybe wondering why he used the word "ambushed" or details like "police shot in the back." one of the things we have seen online are a variety of videos. one o f the officers being shot in the back at street level by a gunman using a long rifle. you see the high velocity rounds hitting the pavement it is graphic and difficult to watch. it gives us a better idea of the nature of this attack. it is complex attack and it was an ambush on these officers and the video bears out of what we heard in that press conference of a number of these officers were shot in the back as they were responding to what we understand to be at this point
gunfire that is two snipers firing at the same locations from different positions. this video makes it clear that at some point that gunman or one of those gunman came down at street levels and getting behind police and opening fire on them. >> unbelievable. >> the dpragraphic of the botto your screen, we have changed it to reflect new information. sadly the bottom loine is we ha 11 police officers hit by sniper fires tonight in dallas, texas. four officers have died and others are badly wounded. this happened during a peaceful protest in dallas texas. some of them had been sponsored by the black lives matter movement, many of them took place in cities and towns across this country tonight.
most were peaceful. dallas police officers, dallas transit officers were standing by, not in riot gear but in their normal shortsleeves, summer service uniforms. and, as you just heard cal perry said, one of them targeted in the back. this is a sniper's plan execution and assassination of police officers. in an earlier police briefing, they described the scene where there was almost a kill zone downtown with more than one gunman and perhaps now we learn of a woman been arrested and in connection with this as well. we have and if you believe reports earlier on in a situation like this, aborof thr people under arrest, we have one
person who has engaged police in further gunfire and conversations conversations, the second left of the five story garage in the district of dallas, texas. jarvis wright was one of the protesters marching tonight, jarvis, i think i have it right that it was a peaceful demonstration, folks coming out of a hot night but they included families and kids and there were speaker and there was a march? but this was a peaceful night at dallas? >> yes, it was, that was accurate >> tell us what you saw and heard and when you saw it and heard it. >> well, we were actually pretty much done with the march and we were headed eastward on maine.
i was at the intersection of maine. i was standing with some of the protesters. i noticed some people are running a block ahead and i am like what are they running and i heard somebody said they're shooting and shooting. i heard gunshots. i thought what the -- they're actually shooting. people started screaming and yelling and i have been in several protests before, i saw my daughter, she was with me. i found her and know that she was safe, i started directing away from the direction of the gunfire. they were just hysterical. i just started to direct people away from gunfire. i had no idea. i started running and continue and it was chaotic at that
point. >> when did you realize that the targets of the gunfires were police officers around you? >> where i was at, there were not any officers immediately where i was at. all officers were kind of up a block ahead where the media protests were so to speak. i didn't know that officers were targeted in this situation. somebody told me that two officers actually got shot. i had no idea. >> jarvis, do i have it about right that they were in a peaceful stance tonight that they were not aggressive at all, they were on the perimeter, keeping the peace in their basic uniforms. >> yes, they were. that's accurate.
>> what was the substance of the demonstration tonight and what was said at the protest? >> well, i got there kind of late. i did not see the speakers. the substance of the protest was not -- also, was to -- how can i say this? just being engage in the community and the city of dallas and make them aware of what's going on overall. what we were doing bringing light to a situation that we have been trying to ignore and trying to unify all races to come together and stand and stand as one. to try to bring some justice and
some border to what is going on as it applies to people of color. by no means that my of my comrades who organized this, by no means -- of this disaster. none of us look for thed for th thought of this. all we want is to engage in the city of dallas and unify the city of dallas. that's all we want. >> and, i guess another way to put it is because names matter, the last thing folks wanted was for castillo and sterling to be linked with something like this after what we all witnessed and been through. >> exactly. >> exactly.
>> and if i can and i need to say it, the person who law enforcement had as a point of interest, i don't know him personally, i saw that he was armed. however, when those shots rang out, i was standing right there, his brother instructed him to disarm himself and take his wife out and give it to the offic officer -- it was an hispanic officer. i watched him. i thought this hispanic officer catches his name down. >> there is no way that guy they
had is a point of interest could have done this. he marched with us the whole time. i witnessed him getting his wife to a dallas police department officer, a hispanic one. the story that his brother gave is very much true. i was standing right there. >> i had to let that. >> jarvis thank you for saying that. >> we did show an interview with his brother david pointing tout same thing saying that this was a big mistake for the police to run his photo and ask everyone to help turn him in that they had the wrong guy and hearing from you while in an open carry state, he had of what looked to
be to be an ar-15. he handed that weapon over to police officers who become targets of the snipers tonight and further the story, they had the wrong man. >> jarvis, i am sorry for what your city had been through and sorry for everyone and given the fact that together peaceful in protest together to mourn these two deaths that had been in the news and now the city of dallas will be mourning these four police officers out of eleven people hit by gunfire tonight. jarvis wright have been kind enough to join us having been one of the participants and witnesses. we are joined now with wesley lowry who won the prize for his reporting on police involved
shootings. prior to these news, you were writing or have written. >> i guess every good person's worse fear that this is kind of a proverse urban army of two or three people in the names of sterling and castillo. >> this week has been a sleep less world win of pain and death whether those viral videos of baton rouge as well as suburbs of saint paul, minnesota. now, what we are seeing out of dallas which is one of the worst targeted a bush event or attack of police officers in america's history. it has been years that this many officers were killed in an ambush attack. this is certainly that any
reasonable person takes is pained by. >> prior to this news tonight and i happen to be driving in my car and i was trying to listen to all the coverage available. a lot of people were saying that the conversations that everyone thinks need to be had should start at the level of the nation's 18,000 police officer chiefs that the conversation should be about training and about police hiring practices. i heard one analyst reminding everybody that not everyone should be a police officer. perhaps some of the people police officers should not have been hired and controversial and part of conversation, that's fine. no one guessed and there were people who read random things on facebook that were kind of along the line of an eye for an eye.
no one could have guessed this kind of thing, protests, yes. maybe violent protest in the hot day of summer, yes. nothing like this. >> of course. >> it is difficult because with suspects still at large and still engaging officers, we had no idea of what they their stated motivations are going to be. they often claim solidarity with some cause and some movement whether that be terrorism or whether that be something related to policing. it will be difficult to seeks out motivation here. dallas has a unique relationship between police apartment and protests. as you know there are 18,000 police departments in the united states of america and 18,000 police chiefs and chief brown
brown is seen as one of the shining stars and leaders and speaks to relationships between the community his police department and he's someone who is very proactively welcoming protests and demonstrations. if you look at the dallas police twitter feed today, they were posting pictures of themselves. and shockingly, of officers being killed. this is in dallas of places we have seen massive protests and of 2014 of the killing of michael brown and ferguson and for it to have something happening here is certainly in my ways is more painful. this is a stipulate that has seen massive peaceful protest. >> wesley, to that exact point. i keep on trying to point out of number one, dallas pd used
social media showing their officers with some of the peaceful protesters tonight and not in riot gear, that's exactly what was supposed to happen, post ferguson and post president obama's task force on the subject. and, second, it is important right now with the conversations we are having and have to have about policing and these officers voinvolved fatal shootings to remember. look at these pictures who's running towards the in coming fire, is police officers. >> of course. like i said, this is the worst going back to at least november 2009, the worse ambush attack on police officers in the united states of america. that attack where we had four officers killed in washington state as they shot in a coffee shop.
i talked to my colleague at the post, one thing that comes up after interview after interview is this concern of this ambushed style attack. it speaks to how tragic this is because it is often years between shootings where you see multiple officers ambushed this way of shot and killed. certainly 11 officers being shot total is something that outside of deep out liars aers and thes the type of incidents that we see being wounded and killed. >> on this awful night with us from the washington post, larry, thank you very much for stopping by and talking to us on this awful night. we branwant to bring our viewer interview that was conducted
with teresa williams. this aired on our dallas fort worth tv station, kxas. her sister was injured in the shooting. he was at the rally with her four boys. she jumped on top of her sons as the shots were fired. >> i went to the rally. it was a peaceful rally and right towards the end of the rally, i said we are walking away and as they turn to walk away, she heard the first shot and they did not know what it was so she kept on walking. after the first shot another shot went off and it became a lot of shots fired. they all begun to run and she started to run. she immediately jumped on top of one of her sons and covered him and the other three ran in different directions.
right now currently two of my nephews are locked inside the tower because they cannot get out. we found one that someone took to the apartments near by and they called us. she's currently going through surgery ruight now. >> she just went to the protest >> she just went to the protest >> how old were the kids? >> my nephew are 15. >> others? >> twelv12, 13 and 17. >> she's in surgery right now? >> what did the doctor say? >> right now the bullet they think is still in her leg. she should be in for a few days. >> how was she? >> she's in a lot of pain right now. >> she's heavily medicated and a
lot of pain and she's more so -- >> unbelievable of one of the stories tonight of a woman with her four children came out to be apart of this peaceful protest. here is what we are going to do. what you are about to hear is our nbc station kxas, this is their local coverage. we have just heard through their reporter, we heard there is a sound and an explosion of a bang. because we learned way too much of police tactics in the modern era, perhaps a flash bang grenade or an attempt to take this gunman down and end this thing. lets listen into their coverage. >> scott, can you walk us
through the blast that you heard and what time did you hear it and how long ago? >> the last several minutes here. again, one loud blast that's come frg ting from the el centr parking garage. later in the third floor of the building and i am walking out and certainly over the area and again a shining spotlight down on that location. the reason i believe -- one of us taking cover and be aware that something was about to happen if we hear something shortly. something that police planned to do. we did not heard any gunshots.
just that one loud bang. again, it may have been a police device that were used to stun the suspect in the situation. >> it could have been a device and could have also been -- we know the suspects have mentioned to the police that there were bombs plant inside the garage. don, would it be possible that police detonated the suspicious device. >> it is possible and at this point, everything is on the table. they want to get this suspect in custody. >> and what scott had just mentioned, of a stunned grenade. >> they are called flash names. they it is very loud. they used to force entry
situations and houses and businesses. >> all right, scott, standby and keep us posted on anything you see there. >> lets head out to julie fine at baylor hospital. do you have an update from there? >> we know something is happening here right behind me, you can see tow truck is here and it is going to be taking one of those police officer cars away moem tementarilomentarily. it was not clear whether they are collecting evidence or what they are doing >> this is local coverage in dallas, fort worth and it is what our viewers are watching there. we are the biggest local story that happened in the dallas fort worth metroplex, perhaps, since the assassination of john f. kennedy. everything is a crime scene or
everything is evidence. a police cruiser pulled in there at a high rate of speed to bring an officer to the er, if that cruiser has a round blet ullet t or blood of everything, they got to assemble the case. that would be taken presumably to an in pound lot along with anything else that had any connection tonight. i want to bring in jim, i recall the first time i ever went out was infantry in impliplaces lik iraq. they were all wearing ear plugs or head phones with their radio system on it because it is the concussion on the ears. if you are zoout and exposed ton explosion that could be
crippling and disoriented. >> it is the same theory behind a flash bag reggrenade. >> and the overwhelmingly d distracting. >> the blast over pressure and the con constitution is not something that you can symptoms. if it is thrown in a roam, for example, it is going to stun him and -- its official name is the flask. it just stuns the person and there is no fragmentation and there is a bright flash from the expensive charge and of course, tactical team practicing it all the time but were able to deal with them. they know how to move behind it and know how to use it directly and all of major tactics being used. that could have been that glass and could have been a counter
charge or a bomb squad disrupter that were shooting his suspicious baggage. it could have been the suspect throwing something of a bomb or get nad. y grenade. you see sometimes people making homemade devices. any of those are possibilities. when you hear that glass and you expect what's going to happen. >> well, jim, i am now learning that we are able to talk to the man who first reported this. >> scot-free man from kxas. scott, we just dipped into live local coverage and heard you of the report from the explosion. it did not occur to me that it
could have been the bad guys i was praying. all you though is you heard a black and not a gunshot and stronger than that from the area from the parking garage. the only reason that it was the police right before it happened, the officer came over and you said something was about to happen, indicating it was a good time to take cover. you are going to hear some things. >> that seems to be an indication that this was something planned by police verses something that the suspect may have done. >> my two guesses and that's all they are. >> if they have been a poli police -- they are designed to distract the suspect and it is also possible that we heard from
the dallas police that they have concerns of these suspects and of explosive devices the area. this was a charge used by a police arm squad. maybe a suspicious items they found, some where in the parking structure. >> i could not believe the canter of your police chief. i guess everyone in the command structure in dallas texas is in shock along with half of us watching. >> whn he said, he used the word vulnerable. something you don't hear from a public officials. >> he said in effect, he would ask his folks to come back to him with plans and suggestions, how are you going to end this? >> that would certainly square of what you are reporting. >> absolutely. >> brian. >> we should point out, they are very kpeernsed squat team and well trained here.
>> the dallas police department, along with your -- there is plenty of experts here and dealing with explosives and with our people. this is a community that pride itself on law enforcement response. everything we've seen tonig tonight -- there is strictly no resources. i came in from home and i was called out. i packed up my gear and heading in hours before it was scheduled to start. all of them, devastated tonight as they are coming the realizizati realization that they have lost it. >> scott, we are all going to
get to know far too much about the mayor and the police officer chief for all the wrong reasons. as they become very familiar personality to us. in the media, all right, tonight you are seeing at more than one briefing. i know mayor rawlings is a democratic. and he came to elect politics of business and the triumph sector, tell us what you know about your police chief. >> chief brown had been here for many years and came up -- one time he was in charge of the s.w.a.t. team. >> from a tactical standpoint, she commanded that not a large police district here so we'll appear it a time. a number of experience through
situations. i am trying to remember the exact time line >> we at a an tactic here on the dallas ed quarters. >> that situation would ended by -- an hour later, this is a -- this is obviously, is nothing like what they seen. >> we should point out of the last time a police officer was shot and killed in the line of duty was 2009. >> it is been many years. and tonight they have lost three. >> scott going into this evening, so much of the public
conversations of this country, this country was about two men and two deaths, police involved deaths and always sterling and castillo, can you believer that a few hours after that all this media attention, all the networks are online and the eyes o f the world are on dallas texas because you had 11 police officers targeted and four of them killed. >> i know, any time, it is unreal. >> particularly in the city that has done pretty well with these kind of protests. >> last summer, we had several of our demonstration and a police chief had worked very hard to telegraph to the protesters that they are out there doing the time. as they are walking in the
marks, it had been very peaceful. there was no killing tonight that i am aware of and there was any concerns about of this rally, the crowd of people and they have an extra number of officers there. >> it does not sound like nilg we could have imagine here. >> i think the gafty is building. we are in the midst of an active situation. >> where are you right now in relations to the four or five story parking garage. >> are you in a position if there is further eck change of gunfires, and this thing gets vol resolved, you can hear it? >> yes, we are about as block and a half from that structure and near one of the edges of the el centro building where both of
these were happening tonight. >> the suspect is on the third floor up in the parking garage. it is continuing to make a threat. police have isolated for your locations. i am walking down the streets and headed in that direction. dallas police, every single block in this area except -- so what is it? >> it was a crowded area this evening with protesters and markers the out and it has really cleared out and it is a large portion. up tonight, you are in the middle of dallas. >> because it is -- dallas has one of the most successful city
creating a night life and vibrant central business district and now that's -- >> that's a good point. we don't see olt a lot of buy i the downtown area. >> we have our share of crime issues but dallas town area is typically a place where people feel like they are out of the eechbing with a lot of concerns. >> this is just stunned of everyone that's here tonight. when i arrived, i talked to the man standing here one of the officers who was shot. >> he said it was really -- what frighten him after that, in addition to see an officer down is that other officers were looking up and stand ng the sky and trying to figure out where the gunfire was coming from. >> obviously, it was a terrifying situation where anybody in the area and not
knowing. >> where to run from? >> scott, that's the scary part. >> we heard other people say some where around 16 rounds is what they heard in that and this. if you can stay with me one more mee moment. we want to run a piece of video that we just received from an eye witness. >> okay, like inside the parkt. >> first, you can identify it because -- the officers pushing me out of the way. >> you can see i am scarring up. >> next thing you know -- we.
>> reporter: officer down on tn coast. >> he starts running around in corners and they froze. that what's i am going to do. >> so that's the scope of the urban warfare tonight in dallas texas. >> note the man he was talking to the camera there. he's an american guy. >> he's the kind of guy that you see everyday and that's the point of tonight's demonstration. it brought together families and young and old and rich and poor and white folks or people of color. all of it center around two names. >> castillo and sterling. that was was what everyone was talking about. >> until they in the ooerching
in the east coast when this peaceful demonstration of this sizable ma sizable march and police hanging back being not at all aggressive and crowd controlled. that demonstration turned into an absolute nightmare. >> i guess i should ask if there is anything else from dallas that perhaps you know on the local level that we have not reported before. i let you go do your job. >> brian, we still have the same questions as you do and trying to serve out the number of people involved. >> the one suspect cornered in the parking structure. we had a woman taken into custody earlier tonight. >> the rest of this in terms of the who and how many and why, we are still trying to sort out and
frankly it is doult do ifficultt at this point. most of folks are in the downtown area and not to mention so many command staffs that folks have been at the hospital here as well and trying to assist the family members of the injured and killed. >> we have been taking to trauma centers and close to the area. >> scott freeman. kxas tv serving our dallas fort worth station there. we are so importathe busiest ni the tragedy of dallas texas. thanks, we'll be talking again along the way. this was just handed to me of the new york post. >> not a comment to ha"not a co
to have it was certainly an act of urban warfare, as we said. an attempted assassination. the successful assassination of at least four police officers. and i'm not sure we have a good idea of the full number of the wounded and injured. there were early reports that minor injuries were sustained, major enough to require people going to the e.r., because of the sheer mass of people, the stampede effect to get out of there. we saw the gentleman who spoke to us from the hospital door. wounds that have to be called superficial in light of the terrible gunshot wounds we've seen tonight.
but there are a lot of folks who are going to be seeking treatment for wounds in dallas, texas. remember, with all these rounds in the air, the possibility of being struck, ricocheted rounds off pavement, off a building. the same thing you encounter in warfare. and then we have the ongoing investigation. as scott friedman helped report on our air, they heard a single explosion in the last 30 minutes from the vicinity of the parking garage in downtown dallas. earlier tonight, about an hour ago. we heard the following from the dallas police chief about where the investigation has taken them so far and those already in custody. >> we just are not getting the cooperation we'd like to know that answer of why, the motivation, who they are. but our detectives are
diligently interviewing and interrogating these people, and we'll find that out and share it with you as soon as we have it. >> so, chief, fair to state you're talking about four people, one in the garage, two in the car, and the other one was in the garage. you believe they were all working together at this point? >> that's our assumption now. and working together with rifles, triangulated at elevated positions in different points in the downtown area where the march ended up going, the route of the march. and so there had to be some speculation from us that there's some knowledge of the route, where you'd be, because how would you know to post up there. so we're leaving every motive on the table of how this happened and why it happened. but we're waiting for the suspects to break and let us know what they're doing. >> but it's clear you have a lot of resources at your disposal. were these people on anyone's radar? you had the fbi here, i know. you had a lot of other agencies.
>> we were monitoring social media, and we had attended many of the planning meetings for the protest group. and we have yet to determine whether or not there was some complicit with the planning of this. >> cal perry is with us here in our new york studios. the most chilling word, cal, the police chief used is triangulated, and it really -- it's right out of warfare, really, the thought that this was snipers working in concert to create a kill zone and trap officers below in it. >> so the u.s. military referred to this as a complex attack in iraq, and it was something that the marine corps became all too familiar with. it was something that unfortunately all of us who cover that war became too familiar with. and tomorrow morning in police departments all across the country, there's going to be
updated information on kevlar vests. there's going to be an updated posture. there are still some protests taking place across the country. there's one taking place in harlem. there's something going on in portland, oakland as well. the chilling effect this is having on police departments across the country as they now don that basically combat gear, those kevlar heavy vests, those high-powered assault rifles, as they switch from low-velocity weapons to high-velocity weapons. the chilling effect this will have on protest groups and groups that have gathered peacefully. today we saw in new york, i did about two tours around manhattan with a group of protesters who were working hand in hand with the new york police department. that is exactly what was happening in dallas. the dallas police department had taken to twitter and was live-tweeting this protest, was keeping people in dallas updated on the progress of this protest. that posture, both on social
media and on the street, i think, changes tonight. >> another way of putting it is after ferguson, a lot of people in law enforcement and a lot of people in the white house realized that we had allowed certain police departments to become too militaristic. military vehicles had come on sale for the multiple market off war surplus. the vehicles you and i saw in the desert overseas were now on the streets of the united states, along with a kind of combat gear for police departments. i think a lot of big city police departments have been struggling to come off of that look, to come off of that stance, and sadly tonight we've had police
officers targeted. so this will mean a backsliding in all those post-ferguson reforms. and if what you're saying is correct -- and i think you're probably absolutely right -- it's going to go back to the way it was. >> and there's a feeling that you get that is uncontrollable when you see someone wearing a kevlar vest and holding an m-4 rifle as opposed to somebody in a blue uniform who is leaning up against a car, talking to you as you cover a protest. and because of the danger that now exists in every city in this country -- and, again, i can imagine in that briefing room tomorrow morning in new york, in los angeles, in chicago, they're going to be going over this incident. they're going to be going over their equipment. they're going to be going over their posture. and any progress that we may have seen tonight across the country in what were peaceful protests, in what were acts of police departments hand-in-hand
working with black lives matter organizers -- and you heard the police chief there saying, we attended some of the planning meetings. that kind of coordination, that kind of growth and healing that we had just seen, i'm afraid, disappears tonight. >> and not too put too fine a point on it, but i was amazed to see some m raps, not only did i see one in ferguson, but you've seen them on the streets of other communities in this country. cal spent a lot of time in baghdad. the mrap is a vehicle that came out as an improvement over the armored humvee. it has a v-shaped hull. it can carry large amounts of troops high off the ground, but it was designed after the ied, the improvised explosive device, became a thing among the terrorists. the mrap was designed to deflect
the charge, deflect the blast, and hopefully, preferably, keep going. they are massive vehicles, literally bomb-proof. that was the essence of their design. and, cal, some of them came onto the military surplus market for, you know, domestic cities and towns. >> and when you have somebody holed up in a parking garage saying that they laid bombs across an urban area, those vehicles become necessary. that's the issue. you don't want them to be necessary. i don't want to see police officers outside 30 rock wearing heavy kevlar vests, scanning rooftops. but imagine yourself in this position. your posture is going to immediately change. and then unfortunately just the posture of people around you is going to change. >> you mentioned outside of this building in new york city, outside a growing number of buildings and landmarks in this city, we do see m-4 rifles.
we do see kevlar and riot helmets, part of the anti-terrorism task force in new york city. they have been deployed for a couple months, and they appear to be out there to stay. >> and if you talk to these police officers, so many of them are veterans, and one of the first things they will tell you is they hope they never, ever have to put on that heavy vest again or wear that rifle here in the united states. and, again, so much of this is about community relations. so much of this is about the ability of police officers to talk to people on the street, whether they're protesting or not. and this just inherently changes things because the threat is so much different. snipers triangulating fire. improvised explosive devices. i mean these are phrases that we use when we talk about war and when we talk about events overseas. dallas, #dallas is trending
right now in kenya to give you an idea of sort of the scale of what we're witnessing here because, i think, again it just inherently changes things. and unfortunately it may erode the improvement that we saw tonight, earlier tonight, in cities across america where we saw police departments hand in hand working with protesters to get rid of a lot of the angst that we've seen slowly building in the last 24, 36 hours. >> cal, our nbc station in dallas fort worth, kxas, they've been -- their coverage has been so good tonight. their people have been so helpful and so generous to us as a news organization. they are reporting the worst possible news at the end of this awful night in dallas, texas. and that is according to kxas, they've lost another police officer. that would put the death toll at
five. again, we have two different jurisdictions here. the dfd, the dallas police department -- i'm sorry -- dpd, dallas police department, and d.a.r.t., dallas area rapid transit. officers from both of those departments were killed tonight. we don't know if this fifth fatality was with the dallas police department or the transit police there. but this is a massacre. it's an assassination. this was a targeted killing, the very worst kind. these men and women were shot at tonight during this demonstration because they were wearing the uniform. as cal perry and i have been discussing, as others have made clear, they were not in riot gear. they were wearing -- a lot of
them -- the least protection available to them. that is evidenced by -- we keep repeating these pictures because it's what we're limited to in these early hours as the video we have. but a shot we keep repeating shows them lifting a heavy canvas black bag out of a back seat. and, cal, these vests are sizeable. they're heavy. a lot of them contain a front plate and a back plate in addition to kevlar, the material, added armor front and back. the helmets are heavy. it's an ordeal getting it on. >> and in the summer, it's that much worse. it's that much more exhausting. i think our viewers would probably be horrified to know that a high-velocity round will still go through a vest like that. and, again, you know, we're talking about equipment that's made for war zones being used now in an american urban
setting. certainly for these police officers -- and you see them taking cover behind engine blocks of police cars, which is exactly what you're trained to do in only the worst of situations. >> rounds can go through a lot of other pieces of a police car. cal's totally right. officers are told the one impenetrable part of the car is up front on either side of that engine block. try to put it between the suspect, the gunman, and yourself. tonight the perversity of this was that these gunmen, these shooters, used the height, the protection of tall buildings and perhaps even a drive-in garage rooftop, using height to their advantage in shooting down, triangulating to quote the police chief, to try to create an urban kill zone. this was, make no mistake, an
act of urban warfare, a kind of domestic terrorism tonight in dallas, texas. at the bottom of your screen in the red graphic is the new update. the terrible news, 11 officers shot. five have now died, and we don't have an accounting of civilians wounded. we've got several hospital emergency rooms up and running. among the great ironies of tonight, as i said at the outset of our coverage, this is happening a very short distance away from deally plaza. the texas book depository is even pictured in some of the video we've seen tonight. parkland hospital, there was a film of the same name because of its role in the kennedy assassination. unbelievable that dallas, texas, is back in the news in connection with violence.
jim cavanaugh, formerly special agent in charge, atf, jim, you were talking earlier and perhaps for our later audience's benefit, talk about the time you spent in and around dallas and your experience and exposure to both the dallas transit cops and dallas p.d. >> yeah, right. well i was the assistant special agent in charge of the atf division in dallas. it's right there downtown blocks away from the shooting there. we worked, of course, extensively with dallas p.d. we had a lot of dallas p.d. officers on our task forces, and they worked the violent crime in the city with us. you know, we were trying to help them. of course they were a larger force than we were. but we targeted, you know, gun violence. that was atf's mission. of course, the bombs. we'd work with them constantly. we knew their command staffs. we met with them all the time. they're just one of the top police forces in the wo