following from southwest michigan. two court bailiffs were killed in a shooting at the berrien county courthouse in st. joseph, michigan. as you can see, in the southwest corner of the state. a deputy sheriff and several others were injured in the shooting. they're right now being treated at a local hospital. the shooter, we are told, was killed by police. the county sheriff says the gunman was in court before that shooting. he has not said what the suspect was in court for just yet. the governor of the state of michigan rick snyder tweeting earlier, msp has secured the seen at the berrien county courthouse and started its investigation into the shooting that occurred this afternoon. and donald trump shortly thereafter tweeted, thoughts and prayers with the victims and their families along with everyone at the berrien county courthouse in st. joseph, michigan. we'll keep you up to date to that. a news conference is scheduled from there at about 6:00 this evening. division, anger and hurt
still hanging over the nation after a series of violence rocked this country. thousands of protesters marching throughout the country across the u.s. hundreds were arrested and detained as they decried police tactics. protests continuing today. tension still boiling over after a gunman killed five police officers and wounded nine others. president obama returned early from spain late last night so that he can attend the memorial service for those slain officers to take place tomorrow. he will make remarks there. he'll also be joined by former president george w. bush and vice president joe biden. back in dallas, investigators found three firearms at the scene of the shootings. in addition to the sks assault rifle already at that scene, two semiautomatic pistols have been recovered. law enforcement found a .22 rifle and a pound of binary explosives, as they are described. typically the ones used for bomb making at the gunman's home.
the parents of the gunman, micah johnson, expressed their sadness in an exclusive interview with the blaze. >> i don't know what to say to anybody to make anything better. i didn't see it coming. >> he was a good son. he was a good son. >> i love my son with all my heart. i hate what he did. >> that is the father of micah johnson there in texas. we'll have more on the latest in the fallout from that ambush in dallas. right now, we have brand-new video just in to us. nbc's lester holt just sitting down with vice president joe biden in the wake of the violence in dallas. we want to direct you now to
that interview. >> mr. vice president, thank you for being with us. you had meetings with law enforcement today. you'll be chairing more meetings with law enforcement and activists, politicians. are we still trying to grapple and define what the issue is, or can we move on to the solutions phase, and what are they? >> i think we can move on to solutions. the issue everyone agreed with is there's a great deal of anxiety and fear. fear on the part of police officers that they become targets and fear on the part of some of the communities that they are, in fact, targets of the police. and the truth of the matter is the vast majority of the police, the overwhelming majority of police apply the law accurately and fairly. and most of the people in the community are -- just want -- they want to be seen. you know, there's an expression that commissioner bratton in new york said. he told me about. he said there was an woman activist when he was commissioner in l.a. and she said there's a greeting the
masai tribe in africa has when they see someone. it's we see you. i see you. the problem is, we're not seeing each other because there's been a cut in the funding for local law enforcement. community policing is a highly intense, resource intense undertaking. what's not happens what happened in the '90s is you don't have police officers out of the car knowing who runs the local grocery stoerks showing up at the boys and girls club and talking to and make sure they give their cell phone number to the lady who lives on the corner who can call and say if there's a drug deal going down but please don't mention my name. there's much less interaction. what happens is that woman police officer sitting in the squad car in a tough neighborhood, they don't know she's the mother of three kids and coaches basketball and is a good person and conversely, the cuds kids on the corner don't know this kid may be a poet instead
of a gangbanger. there's a need to be more community policing and interaction and these police organizations ask for some help. they said we need help and more money from training. we need help in providing training on de-escalation. we're sitting down with a concrete agenda of things we can do that can open up the avenues of communication between the black community primarily and the police departments and i think they are ready to do it. and i think the community is. >> i think most people at the end of last week felt they'd been kicked in the gut. it was an awful week. the president said that america is not as divided as many people might suggest. yet here you have communities that feel -- openly saying we're not getting any support. that sounds pretty -- >> the sense that at this moment in time, nobody seems to be
talking to one another. in terms of police in the communities. number two, we're in a situation, lester -- it's more perception than it is reality. violent crime is down and it's still way down. for example, in dallas, texas, in 2009, there were 147 complaints of excessive force. there were 53 in 2014. and there were -- went from 74 house arrests to 68,000 arrests. because that department put in place a whole series of training mechanisms where there's more irn interaction with the community and de-escalating. that's what the police officers we met with today in part were asking for. >> you talk about perception. does that suggest something that's not necessarily there? >> no, no. it's there.
it's real. there's institutional racism that exists throughout our society. we've gotten better but we still have a long way to go. but the truth of the matter is as a practical matter, it is getting -- it is getting incrementally better. but the truth is that's not good enough. we have to keep pushing. we have to keep pushing, and we have to fund these efforts that will allow the communities to interact with the police n tande police with the communities. the population has gone up about 17%, and funding for police has gone up 13%. there's an increasing gap between what they need to be able to be in the neighborhoods and totally constructive way and the resources made available. >> when you saw the video of a man being shot as he's held on the ground, the video of a man dying after he's been shot in his car, was your reaction, oh, this is terrible, or, oh, this is terrible and here we go again? >> my reaction was, first of
all, what -- how did this happen in the first place? what happened to get to this place? >> you didn't see it through a racial lens? >> that's how i viewed it, i must admit. i saw and, wait a minute. here's an african-american on the ground. department know a homeless person had called in and said there's a homes man standing outside the store selling discs, which he had done for years. and so the police showed up. and because there's this heightened tension across the board you have this guy thinking, i'm going to be victimized, which it turned out he might have been. and then the other side of the equation, this guy has a gun. what's going to happen here? this is the stuff we've got to work our way through and let the facts come out. and determine what exactly happened and respond.
the police i met with today said, look. we have bad apples. we understand that. every profession has bad apples. but the vast majority of the police officers are, in fact, acting fairly. but conversely, as an african-american, you know that you are more likely to be pulled over for a traffic stop than a caucasian american. you know the circumstances exist out there. and it's still real. it's as real in jobs, it's in housing. it continues, but it's less and less, but it continues and when you see something like that, lester, you -- and i'm not being critical of the media, you replay it 5,000 times. and that's understandable. but imagine what would happen in days when you and i were younger where these kinds of things happened in the '60s and '70s and '80s and had been played that much? it just heightens everything. nothing happens that the american public doesn't see almost immediately.
that can be good. but can also be, you know, it adds to the tension. >> donald trump said today he's a law and order candidate and a compassion candidate. you're part of an administration that's about to come to the end of your term. are you disappointed that the obama administration has not been able to effect more change, that so much of this has come off the rails here in the last part of your term? >> well, the truth is, there's been enormous amount of change. like i said, crime is at the lowest level it's been in years and years and years. we're in a situation where we have a circumstance that, for example, during the bush -- this is not -- i'm not criticizing president bush. during the bush administration, an average of 160-some police officers killed every year. in our administration, it's 137 per year. that's not counting 9/11 in the bush administration.
yet the perception is being sold by whomever is, my god, things are so much worse than they were eight years ago. it's simply not true. but the perception is understandably aggravated by the media -- not the media, by social media that replays this stuff 10, 20, 30, 40, 50,000 times. and it is just -- even one of the people -- anyway, i've said enough on that. but the bottom line is that we're going to continue to work as hard as we can until the last day to be able to deal with the remaining issues that affect the perception and reality of how police act in communities and how the communities react to the police. >> final question. let me turn subjects. both candidates are looking for vice presidential picks. would you recommend a regional
approach or someone you can get along with? >> i think the most important thing from my experience being vice president is have a president pick someone they trust completely, they actually like and they know will have their back and can take over a big chunk of what they have to do because there's so much that falls on a president's desk these days. it's hard to do it yourself without being able to delegate some portion of it and not have to follow up. just delegate. >> and that sums up my last question. >> relationship is most important. >> if hillary clinton were to come to you and say, stay on -- you're laughing. i take it that's a no? >> well, that is not my preferred route. >> would you consider it? >> i have great respect for hillary. i'm going to work like the devil for her, but i'm not looking to be vice president again, and no one has talked to me. >> vice president biden, always a pleasure to speak to you, sir.
thank you. >> thank you so much. >> that was lester holt's interview with vice president biden. the mayors recommending their releases on police community relations after the violence in ferguson, missouri. republican mayor mitt cornet is the president of the u.s. conference of mayors. democratic mayor mitch landrieu of new orleans is the vice president. both are joining us from their respective cities today. mr. mayors, we appreciate your being with us right now. mayors in this country are on the ground floor of the community policing efforts. you work closely with your police chiefs and local law enforcement. what right now is working? what changes have we witnessed that are taking place in the last year that are succeeding that could be emphasized in other communities? >> i think first of all, a reminder that your police need to be out in the community and all the positive ways we know are helpful. they need to be part of all the community. and i think in times of a tragedy or in times of conflict,
you aren't going to be able to start over and establish a relationship. and i think another area that we're showing some improvement on is being able to hire minorities into our police department. it's extremely important that we bring in bilingual police officers and that we encourage african-americans to apply to join police forces. these are wonderful careers for people. we need more minorities to sign up to enter pledge classes. >> talk about the challenges for all these efforts, the desires, the recommendation for -- recommendations for change. there's still serious problems that exist in communities as the police chief in dallas said during his news conference today. a starting police chief's salary is something like $44,000 in his community. what is, or what are the biggest challenges? the biggest obstacles? >> i think the vice president did a good job really identifying the problem. this has been a really, really tough weekend for the united states of america. we're in a very important moment. and it's really important for the wellers in america to be disciplined, focus and
professional about how we respond. the first thing i'd like to say is that this is not just a local issue. although the mayors and the police chiefs are the generals that are on the ground, as vice president biden said, we've been partners with the federal government and the funding for homeland security, the funding for police and training and technology has been cut dramatically. we need to reinvigorate that relationship in a very important way so that we can actually do what mitt said. i'll listen to the chief in dallas talk about this today. police have to know that community. they have to be in touch with that community. it can't be something that just occurs when a terrible incident happens. that relationship has to be bltblt built. that's the pathway forward for all of us in the next several weeks. >> in the next several months, americans will make a very -- well, a series of decisions to make. certainly about the president. two different directions they can go, either donald trump or hillary clinton with vastly different positions on this issue and the way they've
handled their response to recent violence. donald trump spoke about policing a short time ago. i want to play some of that for you. >> politicians and activists who seek to remove police or policing from a community are hurting the poorest and most vulnerable americans. we must maintain law and order at the highest level or we will cease to have a country. i am the law and order candid e candidate. >> that's donald trump today saying that he is the law and order candidate. over the weekend, he hit president obama and hillary clinton blaming them for, as he described it, their weak leadership for creating the climate that has created this situation. he said we are much more divided than the president suggests we are. we are a divided nation. so what do you make of that type of rhetoric as he suggests these huge divisions exist as opposed to what would seemingly be an effort to bring people together. >> the synergy between what
we're seeing in the police issues of the last week and the presidential campaign is it's an issue of trust. can you trust the police officers in your community to do the right thing? as a voter -- >> can we trust donald trump? is the way donald trump has handled recent violence, is that language trustworthy as you know well as in effect the ceo of your community, there's a lot that lies on every word that you communicate. >> well, what we as mayors have not heard from donald trump directly on a lot of these issues. i was so anxious to hear what he said on these matters. we need to hear a lot more before we draw a conclusion. when voters go to the polls, i think trust will be a key issue. which candidate do you trust going forward? and not just on this issue but all the other issues that rely on the president's shoulders? >> mayor landrieu, former philadelphia police commissioner charles ramsey said the number of police forces should be dialed back. is that the key to more effective police community relations, or will centralizing
the police training, you know, will forces lose ties and strength within the communities they protect? >> i know chief ramsey. he's a great chief. on the issue, it all gets to the same thing. there should be no distance between the police and community. if you listen to the police chief in dallas, he has a personal experience with his son being in an altercation with the police when his son was younger. and so in the communities, when all of these candidates are talking. it's a national issue. not a local issue. secondly, every word does matter. the point mick and i and mayors across america are making is that we're on the front lines and in the commune ut. the community and police have to be one. all of the strategies that we implement have to get us to that point. if the pole are afraid of the community, are the communities ark trade of the pleerks it's n police, it's not going to get done. on the ground, where it's complicated and really matters, you have to do all of them at the same time. that's the message the mayors of america are sending to both of these candidates.
>> mayors landrieu and cornett, thanks for being with us. >> you're welcome. joining me is congressman g.k. butterfield of north carolina, chairman of the congressional black caucus joining us now. thanks for your time. you said that if congress fails to act on gun violence it will be a long, hot summer. i want to play for you what the dallas police chief david brown said today. >> i was asked, what's your opinion about guns? ask the policymakers to do something and then i'll give you an opinion. put a law out there n i'll give you an opinion. to have me do that job, i'll pass on that. get in that debate and get swallowed up by both sides who are entrenched in their positions? i want no part of that. do the job. >> are you hearing, congressman, are you hearing similar frustrations from law enforcement officers that there has not been legislative action on gun regulations, gun reforms?
>> we're hearing frustration not only from the law enforcement community but from african-american communities and other communities all across the country. it's pouring in every day. and the american people want action on gun violence. they are demanding that we as members of congress legislate to make sure that those who are not capable of flying an airplane because they are on a no-fly well, that's they're disqualified from owning a weapon. 90% of the american people beli teve thre should be background checks before you can purchase a firearm. the american people are speaking very loudly. we need a hearing here in the congress or in gun violence and we need legislative action and we need it now. as the vice president said, anxiety and fear is gripping the nation and we've got to have a legislative response and it must be now. >> let me hone in on that. speaker paul ryan called for unity in the house. it wasn't long before texas congressman roger williams said that the spread of misinformation and constant instigation by prominant leaders including our president have
contributed to the modern day hostility we're witnessing between the police and those they serve. what is your response to roger williams, to this assertion that president obama instigated the hostility that led to the fatal shootings of police? >> the statistics are clear. of all of the unarmed men shot and killed by police in this country, at least last year, 40% of them were african-american. even though black men make up just 6% of the nation's population. and so the data is clear. african-americans are 2 1/2 times more likely to be killed by police than other americans. we must immediately stop what we're doing in congress and appropriate money for law enforcement agencies across the country to train and retrain their officers and separate the good ones from the bad ones and get to the concept of community policing, thereby creating this bond of trust between the community and law enforcement. until we do that, we're going to continue to have unrest in our
communities, and we need to -- we are better than that. we can move on and solve this problem. >> congressman g.k. butterfield chairs the congressional black caucus and is joining us. thank you for your time. we appreciate it. >> thank you. senator tim kaine is our guest next after the break. we hope you'll keep it here on "meet the press daily." ♪ take on any road with intuitive all-wheel drive. the nissan rogue, murano and pathfinder. now get 0% apr for up to 72 months, plus $500 bonus cash. ♪
in his first campaign event since last week's tragedy in dallas, donald trump today called himself the law and order candidate and the candidate of compassion. his speech was mostly focused on veterans issues, but he took the opportunity to go after secretary hillary clinton again calling into question her trustworthiness. >> hillary clinton on the other hand is weak, ineffective, pandering and as proven by her recent e-mail scandal, which was an embarrassment, not only to her, but to the entire nation as
a whole, she's either a liar or grossly incompetent. one or the other. very simple. personally, it's probably both. >> trump was joined by new jersey governor chris christie, one of the front-runners to be trump's running mate. we'll talk republican vp sweepstakes later this hour. up next, the man who many say might join hillary clinton as her running mate, virginia senator tim kaine will join us just one minute away. americans are buying more and more of everything online. and so many businesses rely on the united states postal service to get it there. because when you ship with us, your business becomes our business. that's why we make more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. the united states postal service. priority: you
with booking.com's range rebel and key can wing it all the way to jordan and chelsea's wedding. rumble! road trip. there she is. uh oh, oh, oh, oh, what? so here is our road trip itinerary. what's this? a bunch of different places... nah, bro. we gotta go off-script. rip to shreds every motel, cabin and teepee, between here and the wedding. now get out of my seat. alright. (screams) road trip! whahhhh hahaha... road trip! we're joined by virginia senator tim kaine who nbc news has confirmed is being vetted by the clinton campaign as a potential running mate. senator kaine, thanks for being with us. appreciate your time. i want to talk about the issue of veterans. you know the veteran community well, as a senator from
virginia, a large military community. he highlighted some of the scandals at the v.a. around how vets have been treated. there's been uproar over long wait times, even patients dying waiting for care. how would a clinton administration better handle this issue than donald trump who, along other things, suggests privatizing it, but certainly reforming it. >> yeah, you put your finger on it. virginia is the most military state in the nation between our active duty, guard reserve, veteran military family, dod contractors. and so let's talk about trump and let's talk about secretary clinton. donald trump is a guy who has called for privatization of the v.a. that is something that is overwhelmingly rejected by america's veterans. they do not want to go down that path. do they want improvement? sure they do. but they don't risky or radical privatization schemes of the kind donald trump has called for. you're right. there has been bipartisan concern about lengthy wait
times. both for medical appointments and also veterans trying to get their benefit determinations ruled on promptly by the v.a. we've got to hold the leadership accountable. and we have to end the foolish budget sequester that's been pushed by the republican party to make sure that we're funding the v.a. so that the promises we make to the veterans, there's funding to back those up. >> all these things are ultimately binary. n secretary clinton has one of the lowest favorable ratings of a presumptive nominee in history. ranks below donald trump in terms of trustworthiness. trump wouent after her again. i want to get your sforesponse that. >> crooked hillary clinton is the secretary of the status quo. and wherever hillary clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow. just look at her life. our country needs change, and she will never give us change.
never, ever, ever. >> senator kaine, is the cake baked on this? can hillary clinton in the limited time left before fall, can she change that trust deficit that she has right now with americans? >> look, donald trump will make up anything he wants to make up. and as a guy who is talking about trustworthiness, this is the only american presidential candidate in recent memory who refuses to show the american public his tax returns? let me talk about donald trump and the military compared to hillary clinton. donald trump wants to be commander in chief. he has repeatedly said over and over again the american military is a disaster. there's 1.6 million young men n women who volunteer in a time of war to serve in this military. we ought to be proud of them. they deserve a commander in chief who will talk about them with respect and gratitude, not contempt and disrespect. donald trump even made fun of senator john mccain because he was a p.o.w. is that what we want as a commander in chief?
is that the kind of change donald trump is talking about to have a commander in chief who disrespects troops, who disrespects p.o.w.s, who breaks promises to veterans groups, brags about the money he's giving to them charitably and it turns out that that's false. the donald trump version of change is a version of change this nation does not want. >> senator, let me ask you about some news to be made tomorrow. hillary clinton campaigning for the first time with bernie sanders. has she caved too much to senator sanders on issues like health care, free public education, minimum wage? has she gone too far to the left? >> peter, let me tell you what tomorrow represents. it represents the democrats are coming together to support secretary clinton, help her win and beat donald trump. look what's going on on the republican side. people who were listed as on the short list for vice president are rushing to the microphone to declare that they're no longer interested in the position. so what we see in the two sides is a very different scenario.
democrats are coming together around our candidate and to win in november. republicans are jumping ship because they do not believe that donald trump has the stuff to be a commander in chief or president. >> senator kaine, you accepted more than $160,000 in gifts while serving as governor n lieutenant governor in the state of virginia. the gifts were legal, of course, under virginia law. but if you were to join a clinton ticket, would the gifts play into this narrative of the clintons and their friends playing by what is in effect a different set of rules? >> peter, you're right about 10 to 15 years ago when i did the state disclosures, i did disclose. but i've got to correct you on a fact. it was not all gifts. three-quarters of the disclosure was work-related travel. for example, when a governor travels to do -- >> george mason and other things, i understand. >> when you travel to do an economic development trade mission, it gets paid by the virginia economic development partnership. when you travel to campaign for
candidates, which all governors do, taxpayers shouldn't pay those travel expenses. and so my own pac paid them, or the obama campaign reimbursed me for travel in 2008. three-quarters of the amount was work-related travel of the kind that other governors do. it is the case that a quarter of the amounts were gifts given to my office. i reported everything i was given, even if i didn't keep. i did not keep the vast majority of it. but the key was disclose aesure no one has ever raised a concern that someone who contributed, whether a campaign or gift give eever got anything for it. >> at the end of the day, do you and your wife have conversations about what it might be like to be vice president? >> you know, i mean, it's interesting. i was speculated about eight years ago. and it's nice to be speculated about. i'm not going to pretend otherwise. >> what does your wife think? >> in my gut, eight years ago, i didn't think it was going to go that direction. i got to say my gut right now, i feel like i'm going to stay in
the senate and continue to battle on armed services and budget relations that's make me a happy senator every day. speculation is fine but oouf i't a job to do. for the hillary campaign, the best thing i can do is help her win in virginia. i'm looking forward to campaigning for her. >> the two of you will be together this thursday in virginia. tim kaine, we appreciate your time. thank you. still ahead, the democrats next big play to snag senate control. an ex-senator comes out of retirement for our race of the day. you buy stuff from that airline. wait...is this where you typically shop? you should be getting double miles on every purchase! switch...to the capital one venture card. with venture, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase, everywhere, every day. not just ...(dismissively) airline purchases. seriously... double miles...
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much more ahead on "mtp daily." first, hampton pearson with the cnbc market wrap. >> thanks, peter. stocks beginning the week higher. the dow climbs 80 points. the s&p up by 7 to close at a new record. the nasdaq adds 31 to finish at a 2016 high for the year. alcoa shares are up after the closing bell. the company's revenue and profits were better than expected. alcoa's results mark the unofficial start of earnings season. and gas prices are down slightly over the past three weeks. according to the lundberg survey, they're off 7 cents $2.29 a gallon. that's 54 cents below a year ago. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide.
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we're back now. time for an all-uk edition of the ws for you. starting with the who. home secretary theresa may poised to become the united kingdom's next prime minister. she's the only remaining candidate in the race to become leader of the conservative party and the nation's only second female prime minister. the last competitor in the race dropping out today. andrea leedstrom favored boris johnson. bowed out this morning. now the when. it's wednesday when current prime minister n outgoing conservative leader david cameron is set to submit his resignation to the queen which will turn power over to theresa may. the where, it's the european union, cameron supported staying in the eu. but now says she'll honor the will of the majority who voted to leave. finally, the why. conservatives settle their leadership question today but labor could face an ugly power
struggle that lasts into this fall. labor party member angela eagle launching a leadership challenge to her party head jeremy corbyn. the uk does not have a national election scheduled until 2020 but don't be surprised if theresa may calls for one sooner than that to take advantage of labor's turmoil. still ahead here with one week out until the gop convention, who is leading the invisible raise for donald trump's running mate? we'll have new insight insight ahead on the lid.
a surprise announcement today moves yet another state into the senate battleground map. the race of the day is the open senate seat in indiana. this morning, evan bayh annou e announcing he's running to succeed retiring republican dan coates. sound familiar? it should. bayh was elected to senate the first time coates retired, 1998. coates was elected to senate for the second time after bayh retired in 2010. time is a flat circle in indiana. only coates and bayh have held this senate seat since 1989 and have never run against one another. barron hill had the nomination already but dropped out this morning to make room for bayh. the democratic state committee has to appoint bayh to get him officially on the ticket. he'll have a financial leg up on the republican nominee todd
young. listen to this. still has more than $9 million of campaign cash on hand with trump at the top of the ballot, democrats think they have a real shot at flipping this senate seat with bayh. they are changing their rating from likely republican to toss-up after bayh's move. at the very least, republicans will be forced to spend money and resources in another state while playing defense all over the map. republicans there will surely hope for some kind of boost in donald trump taps indiana governor mike pence as his vice presidential running mate. more on that when we're back after this. life insurance automobile insurance i spent 20 years active duty they still refer to me as "gunnery sergeant" when i call being a usaa member because of my service in the military to pass that on to my kids something that makes me happy my name is roger zapata and i'm a usaa member for life. usaa. we know what it means to serve. get an insurance quote and see why 92% of our members
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and you can't take that away from him. he's the presumptive nominee. and he earned it. now he needs to run for president. there's a difference. n we'll see how that works. >> gorgeous backdrop there in kennebunkport today. that was a bit of nbc political analyst and former bush house communication director nicolle wallace's conversation with jeb bush today. you can see more of that interview tonight at 10:00 p.m. right here on msnbc. for the moment, right to nbc's katy tur who has new information on who might be trump's vp. this is in effect decision week. >> yeah, and he's narrowed it down to four choices. we know that among those choices are newt gingrich, the former house speaker, as well as indiana governor mike pence. there is also speculation and sources telling us that it could also be new jersey governor chris christie, or potentially general mike flynn or even a
couple of other names that are out there. chris christie was here in virginia beach with donald trump today giving his on-stage tryout. that went over about as well as any of the on-stage tryouts have gone. he's been donald trump's attack dog. he continued that today. tomorrow, peter, we're going to see governor mike pence out in indiana do his version of that. we'll find out by friday. that's what donald trump says, by friday, who his pick is. >> we wait and see. may not be that many hours from now. thank you. time for "the lid." joining me is deputy editorial page editor and columnist extraordinaire ruth marcus. and senior political report rep eric bacon jr. ruth, on donald trump, this morning when you talked to chris cillizza there were five people on the list. by afternoon, down to four. >> waiting for that countdown clock. >> nobody who is enjoying this
process more than donald trump right now just throwing out tea leaves left and right as he makes his decision. how important is it what he does with this vp choice? >> the normal thing to say is that a a vp choice really since john f. kennedy chose lyndon johnson hasn't really made a difference. it's a little more important for donald trump than it is for your average presidential nominee because it will be a signal to other people in the party and to voters about his seriousness and his readiness for office. so it matters, but really, what matters mostly is the top of the ticket. >> mike flynn, the retired army veteran lieutenant general mike flynn had his big moment, he was on the sunday show and he said he was pro-choice as a democrat. today, 24 hours later, of course, he said i'm actually very pro-life. donald trump -- >> people change their minds. >> that's a quick evolution.
>> donald trump has his own issues on abortion but is focused more on a political person than a military person for now. does it need to be a political person for it to work? >> it is so hard to game this out because normally, you talk about balancing people from different wings of the party. trump is such an unusual candidate. he didn't come from one of the established wings of the party. didn't come from the party at all. it's very hard to figure out what the strategic thing for him to do is. you would think that what he would want is to project some kind of reassuring sense to the public that he's going to have a good team, that they are all going to know what they're doing but this is all in keeping with the line that he should try to be more presidential and he basically hasn't followed that strategy. >> perry, this week donald trump just today saying he's the law and order candidate. this has been something that's been tried before for a lot of americans, it may resonate. some of his other language may be viewed as divisive, the comments he's had about the wall with mexico, about muslims and about the re-tweeting or tweeting, we should say, of a star that some people viewed as
antisemetic and can donald trump sell this line as the law and order candidate and be one that people can embrace? >> he's been the anti-black lives matter candidate. in december he said any person who kills police officers should get the death penalty. so i think this is where he's going in a kind of blue collar voters he's trying to appeal to. >> he needs to broaden that, obviously. that movement is massive right now. >> that's what strange about this vp list. key question here is, gingrich was speaker of the house. there you get a lot of governing experience. mike pence was leader in the house, within the leadership of the house and christie was a governor. it will be a key choice to determine if he wants a washington insider or someone more outside like christie and somebody like trump. >> speaking of vp selections, hillary clinton still has her choice to make as well. likely she will piggyback on the republican convention and do as soon as they end, she will come out with her own to steal become the spotlight. >> maybe even before.
>> of course, in this season. she tomorrow will make a lot of news obviously when she and bernie sanders finally share the stage for the first time. i asked tim kaine about this a little earlier. has she gone too far left in following bernie sanders on a variety of issues from free education, free public education to minimum wage in a way that may haunt her toward the general? >> it's going to haunt her a little bit and republicans will try to paint her as having lurched left because one never just goes to the left. you have to lurch left. but i think that the clinton campaign is actually -- they argue that they have not taken any positions in wooing bern u youie sanders voters that will hurt hem in the general election. maybe with an ordinary republican candidate, anti-trade message might have hurt them but as we have been discussing, this is not an ordinary year. her opposition to tpp doesn't have the impact that it might have running against a more run of the mill republican. >> what are you watching for as you watch the democrats and
their decision making? any of these folks haunt them? >> well, they are having their tryouts too, just as the republicans are. we saw a little bit of tryout by senator tim kaine earlier in the show. >> is he mean enough? to be the attack dog on the ticket? >> i don't think you are going to out-mean donald trump as a winning strategy for the democrats this year. i think you can effectively deliver your opposition lines and i think he will be able to do that. >> does it need to be a progressive? does hillary clinton need to pick up a progressive on that ticket to satisfy that part of her base right now? >> i would argue she doesn't. the rallying cry will be donald trump and chris christie or whoever is the vice presidential nominee. it's a really important choice. the difference between tim kaine, a moderate centrist, and elizabeth warren, two women would be on the ticket at the same time, it's a huge choice and huge difference for the voters if you get tim kaine
versus senator booker or senator warren. >> what will we hear from these two tomorrow? >> tomorrow will be really interesting to watch. both the words and the body language. because it's been very very difficult, you may have noticed, for senator sanders to bring himself to this moment. it's taken him a lot longer than it took senator clinton eight years ago. so he has talked about the importance of not electing donald trump. this will be the first time if we hear it that he will talk about something positive like electing hillary clinton, despite the differences that remain between them. >> that's the real challenge. you have seen the energy when elizabeth warren stood with hillary clinton. the question is what happens when the two of them are side by side? it took bernie sanders 35 days to come around to hillary clinton with the endorsement. for, eight years ago, it was four days for barack obama to have hillary clinton come by his side. >> i think what he will say is the democratic platform is more liberal than ever. he has gotten these -- he's pocketed victories. it's not a surprise he's endorsing after he got these
wins. i think he will brag about his wins along the way. >> clinton in '08 knew she would run for president today. he knows he's not. >> i don't think we're looking for chemistry between the two of these guys. i don't think bernie sanders is auditioning for vp. just got to say enough to convince his folks that yes, they don't want to elect donald trump. let's get back on the campaign trail with elizabeth warren. >> even joe biden with lester holt earlier wouldn't rule himself out as a possible vp choice. >> kind of at the end he did. it was interesting. >> thank you guys very much. ♪ take on any road with intuitive all-wheel drive. the nissan rogue, murano and pathfinder. now get 0% apr for up to 72 months, plus $500 bonus cash.
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that's going to do it for us tonight. "with all due respect" begins rite now. welcome to cleveland, where the republican party is beginning to gather for its national convention. hundreds of delegates are in town already for the sometimes arcane and sometimes very important committee meetings that kicked off earlier today. just behind me is the quicken loans arena. that's where the delegates are expected to make donald j. trump their official nominee for president next week. this week, the nation's attention understandably is still mostly focused elsewhere. it was a weekend of more conflict between protesters and police officers all across the country. on friday, there were calls for unity f