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tv   The Place for Politics 2016  MSNBC  July 17, 2016 6:00pm-7:01pm PDT

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smart. with liberty mutual new car replacement™, we'll replace the full value of your car. liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance. welcome back. we have been in breaking news coverage for most of this day because of the news that greeted us this morning from baton rouge, louisiana, the deaths of three police officers there. we had a briefing from politicians, statewide politicians, law enforcement at the state and local level. here is how they put the order of events. >> no active scenario that involves a shooter in the city of baton rouge. we believe on the information we have, again, this is ongoing.
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we believe the person that shot and killed our officers, that he is a person that was shot can killed at the scene. that's what we know right now. we do not believe or have any other shooter held up in the baton rouge area, but understand, this investigation has a lot of moving parts and pieces. we already moving and going on each one of those, but there's no active shooter scenario going on right now in baton rouge. i want to make sure you have the information. at 8:40 a.m., several law enforcement officers were shot. a car came into central dispatch of the police department saying there was a guy car royirying a weapon, a rifle, walking in that particular area, at airline, that was the information that came into us. multiple officers were transported to local hospitals
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for treatment. three officers had died, tone deputy is in critical condition. he got out of surgery a short time ago. and sheriff will speak on those. two additional officers suffered not life threatening wounds and they are at the hospital now. at approximately 8:40 a.m., officers at a convenience store observed an individual, wearing all black, standing behind a beauty supply store hold a rifle. they had a call received of shots fired. at 8:44 a.m., officers were down on the scene, and at 8:45, more shots were fired. at 8:46, the suspect was standing near a car wash next to the convenience store. at 8:48, our ems started
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arriving to stage so they could get the bodies to render first aid. he ultimately died at the scene, and that was officers responding to the scene itself. state police and multiple agencies ait wanted ttempted toe area of suspects and other threats. >> it was hell on earth in louisiana. sarah dallof is as close as a journalist can get to where all of that was described took place. i can just tell there is some loosening up of traffic behind you. >> reporter: that's correct, brian. they have opened up the road here. one of the main roads here in batt baton rouge, opened that up about an hour ago. this followed a day we saw hundreds of law enforcement, as
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well as federal agencies responding to the shooting. they were gathering surveillance video. what if anything that shows, we don't know yet. also taking photos and documenting the scene here. now, we have also learned more about the three law enforcement officers killed today. montrel jackson, 32 years old. he was with the baton rouge sheriff's office, and -- i'm sorry. he was with the baton rouge police department, and we have heard from the baton rouge sheriff's office, that the deputy killed was 45-year-old brad gerrofola. he had been serving the community. the remaining person, we're a waiting for their identities to be release pds. three were injured and three were killed and one is in extremely critical condition tonight.
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all of them were married and all had families. meanwhile, the family of alton sterling he was, shot and killed last week. they have called for a message of peace and an end to the violence here in baton rouge as we get ready for sunset. 12 plus hours after the shooting. back to you. >> peace would be a great thing right about now. after that scene, our eyes have been glued on kansas city. if you saw us just at the end of the last hour, we were running video of something of a standoff when police -- we assume they are armed with warrants, went to open the door of the last known address of the gunman, local media is reporting. they were met with a shotgun or at least a long weapon. our justice correspondent, pete
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williams has been following the story from baton rouge, across the country to kansas city. pete? >> reporter: our best information, brian, is that video which was taken some time ago that the man who had the house was taken out of the house in handcuffs and put in the back of a police wagon. so i believe they are now preparing to start that search there. but they did have to resolve that, so this is picture from earlier this evening. back to batten ruon rouge, theyt think they had anybody else they were searching for. they now believe, they were told, you saw the man. they believe gavin long acted alone. they will search his house and go through his computers. his electronic media for anything that would shed light on a motive.
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he turned 29 just today, that he served five years in the marine corps as a special and he was deployed to iraq for six months in 2008. he would have been trained on how to use a rifle. now he had a considerable web presence. he called himself cosmo on a website called conversations with cosmo. convos with cosmo and he described hymn as, and this is a quote, a freedom strategist, a mental game coach and nutritionist, and he had a twitter feed, when he was saying there comes a time where people have to take action to protect their own, or they will end up extinct. he posted that just last week. authorities are looking at whether he is connected to any organizations. they haven't found any indication of that. he has said on a affiliated wit
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organizations. he wasn't talking about organizations that are involved in violence. another thing that authorities aring l are looking at is whether he had deals with a group -- a movement called southe sovereign citizen. they question the authority of the federal government and most local governments. and they file liens and don't believe in the u.s. currency, and so forth. they generally are not violent, but there have been violent encounters between sovereign citizens and police in the past. that's one of many things they are looking at in his past. it's a complicated picture of someone who had some views that certainly as we look at them now, seem quite odd. >> in plain english, and this is your line of work, there comes a
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kind of sameness in the aftermath of things like this, and people like you and me say, well, the signs were right here, and here it is. it's always gotten to me that you can look back, pull apart the pieces of this and lord knows what we'll find over the next few days. >> reporter: that's true, but the trick for law enforcement is there are people saying things all the time and how do you filter them out and decide which are the people who might become violent? there are certainly as far as we know, no violent encounters with police in the past. he had a civil court action with a tax issue that was resolved, and he was divorced. no criminal record we know he has. and he was honorably discharged
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from the marine corps. >> thank you. >> i want to bring jim cavanaugh to the conversation. he is long experienced in federal law enforcement, including with the atf. i wanted to ask about the references pete has made. they were looking into links of the sovereign citizen movement. we have heard from pete and gabe earlier that the -- excuse me, from cal earlier that the online footpri footprint, it's interesting it's considerable. there is a lot of it. pete described it as just plain odd, but in terms to trying to find affiliations or through line that might explain a motive, is if there is a link here, what would you expect that to look like in term of this guy's online presence and what would be the implications in terms of him being a threat to law enforcement? >> it's made up of people that don't believe that government at
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any level has any authority over them at all. it can take you down a maze of ideas. it was basically rooted in white hate, sort of came from white hate. but african-americans do get involved in the sovereign citizen movement as well. but it's mostly white. so what they are is they are anti-tax, anti-government and they believe the government has no authority over them and they believe when the currency was changed in the '30s to the gold standard everything changed. they believe that the country is governed under admiralty law, and they are flags. they print bogus legal documents with all capital letters. they believe it absolves them of any responsibilities and if they are confronted by law
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enforcement, they become violent. a man killed two police officers two years ago and some in south carolina and around the country, but generally, it's in a defensive stance. if he had that mindset, what would go along with that, would be a guy walking down a yellow line with a rifle, and anybody who tells me what to do, i'm going to kill. i'm not submitting to your authority. i would be thinking upon the behavior, the climate, what happened in dallas, the totality of the facts, that some of what pete reported, he may be embracing some black hate groups like the new black panther party or the african-american defense league, who are both in baton rouge who have been calling for the murder of officers. he may not be a member, but he
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may be calling for that. someone who is a sovereign, who is anti-government, i'm not subject to your law, i'm a free man traveling upon the land. they often don't have license plates. they have a fake one, they don't have a driver's license or social security card, and no one has authority. that can morph into other groups. sovereign citizens often say, rachel, that the government tries to make them slaves and so we have seen african-americans also go into sovereign groups. the guy may be on the edge of sovereign groups, black nationalist groups, even though he is a lone actor. just to close your thought, your interview of the witness was very important, where you talked about the man laying by the dumpster, and it was important. was that a plain clothes officer? >> that's exactly right.
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it's a thread that we haven't been able to tie off in terms of that witness report. he has been consistent all day long in saying he saw a person who he didn't believe was nearby laying on the ground. thaes that's right. thank you for being with us. at times like this, it is -- part of us needs to understand the situation. we need to understand whether or not it's linked to an ongoing threat. it will be involved or directed by an organization, right? there's another part of us who i think at least my speaking for myself, i have not just disinterest, but an active feeling that i don't want to know the motive of the shooter, other than to know if there is ongoing danger. i don't want to give voice to whatever twisted mindset somebody may have used to talk themselves into this should be done. i don't want to give voice to
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their views or publicize it. we have to walk that line, in trying to sus this out. >> we'll take a break here. when we come back, among other things, the task again today, fell to the president of talking to the country about another uprising. another outgrowth i should say of gun violence, the unsavory task of discussing the fact that three police officers were killed in baton rouge. >> five days ago, i traveled to dallas, and i said that killer would not be the last person who tries to make us turn on each other, nor will today's killer. it remains up to us to make sure that they fail. led for help as soon as i saw her. i found her wandering miles from home.
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through deeds that we will not be divided, and we're going to have to keep on doing it. again and again and again. that's how this country gets united and that's how we bring good people of will together. only we can prove we have the grace and the character and the common humanity to end this kind of senseless violence. >> the president mentioned the news media. the president mentioned social media, and he talked about our politicians, and our politics and our rhetoric after he was finished, donald trump tweeted, president obama had a news conference, but he doesn't have a clue. our country and a divided crime scene, and it will only get worse. tomorrow night's theme, at the convention, the parties long ago have divided these into themes
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as if devoting a a television show, is make america safe again. katy tur is outside trump tower where tonight's "60 minutes" interview took place. what do you have? >> reporter: donald trump released a statement on facebook saying something similar. we grieve for the officers in baton rouge. how many law enforcement and people have to die because of lack of leadership in our count country? we demand law and order. this is not quite as magnanimous as his last statements were in dallas. it's a major departure in the aftermath of orlando, when he was trying to take credit for calling an attack like that in orlando, saying congrats -- or thank you for the congrats. in a day where people are asking
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to put aside politics in order to ease concerns, donald trump is not doing that, and neither is his running mate, mike pence, both of whom saying that the problems in this country are because of a lack of leadership. we have seen donald trump try to style himself as the law enforcement candidate. the one who will uphold the rules of this country and try to contrast himself with what he says are the democrats, and hillary clinton and president obama saying they have not been on the side of the rule of law. we don't know what donald trump will be saying at the convention. we're not sure when he will be showing up at the convention this week. whether it will be before wednesday night, but he will be speaking of thursday night, and be it off a teleprompter or off the cuff, we'll hear another version of him trying to convention the public he is the law and order candidate. we see he and governor pence
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stand on that front where they stand with police officers where democrats don't. and they stand with police officers as black lives matter protesters do not. there is going to be a unity in this country and they believe they can find unity through standing with officers and upholding law and order, and other people take issue with that. >> katy, thanks. historians as you may know tend to be more smart and our next guest proves that thesis as we will with us. that's our presidential historian and author. we asked you tonight with a single purpose in mind. for those of us in this line of work who are forced to kind of cover and all too often narrate e events as they go by.
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i can't remember a tempo of momentous events like we have been through these last few days and weeks and what are the other gatherings and political kwep conventions that took place at a time like this in our history? >> you have to go back to it and thank you for the kind word is 19 1968. there had been the assassinat n assassinations of martin luther king and robert kennedy. there were riots in 100 cities and huge anti-war protest, and there was a real feeling that the society was coming apart, and lyndon johnson saying we have to make sure this doesn't tear apart our society. that was the backdrop of which
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richard nixon was nominated and then the police force, and democrat at the end of the 1968. we have been hearing donald trump not for the first time talking about law and order. that was the big issue for george wallace, the third party candidate that year, but also for richard nixon who in his acceptance speech at his convention in miami said, when you have unprecedented violence he said, of the kind we have seen, that's time for new leadership. >> rachel here in new york. >> hi, rachel. >> good to have you with us. there was an interview on "60 minutes," the first interview with his running mate, mike pence and i want to play a clip of this because i'm wondering if you can give us any historical analogy or context for a presidential candidate and his
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running mate, having a really fundamental difference on an issue that we thought the presidential candidate wanted to run on. this is about the iraq war, obviously. donald trump has been going after hillary clinton for having voted for the iraq war. mike pence also voted for and vocally supported the iraq war. they were asked about that tonight, and i want to play that clip and i would love to hear if this reminds of you anything or if this is brand new. here we go. >> when the world trade center is coming down, people have friends that are suffering -- >> we tdid go to war. >> we went to iraq is1/2 a war that we shouldn't have entered. iraq did not knock down -- >> your running mate voted for it. >> i don't care. >> what do you mean? >> it's a long time ago.
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they were misled and a lot of information, but i was against it from the beginning. >> you have used that vote of hillary's that was the same as governor pence. the example of her bad judgment. >> i'm one of the few that was right on iraq. >> what about him the. >> he is entitled to make a mistake every once in a while. she is not. >> got it. >> he is entitled to make a mistake. she is not. your running mate voted for it. i don't care. is there a historical allegory for this, or is this something new? >> it's a pretty rough edge rollout as some people were saying earlier. i was thinking of 1980 when george h.w. bush was asked by ronald reagan to run with him as vice president, and reagan carefully said, now, you know that means you have to support the platform in every respect which included, you know, a very
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different view from george h.w. bush's on abortion rights. he said i will support the platfo platform. it looks as if donald trump and mike pence didn't have that talk before this was done. >> have there also been in modern times? have there been presidential candidates who didn't much run with their vice presidential candidate in the sense that we have been trying to figure out gene robinson talking earlier trying to figure out how another political principle integrates as something unusual like the trump organization. it's in so many ways an atypical political movement he has built and it's centered on his personality. they don't seem to be comfortably integrating as a team. even down to agreeing onn a log.
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have there been other examples where the president and vice presidential candidate didn't run together? >> we expect that. one thing we saw was 1988 when dan quail had a rough rollout as we all remember in new orleans when george h.w. bush picked him, and quail found he was campaigning in very small towns, very distant from the presidential candidate. >> tell me you're taking copious notes and there's a book from you. >> i feel like doing it, but maybe you'll write it with me. >> start it tonight. presidential historian, author and friend of ours. thank you for being a part of our coverage. another break and our congrever will be right back.
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this story from baton rouge, louisiana. it led investigators to the suburbs of kansas city where they advanced on the suspect's home. local media reports said they were met by a man with a gun. joining us on the phone in missouri is reporter tara hall.
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is this in re raytown which would put it to the north? >> reporter: this is in kansas city proper, but towards the southeast part of town. >> what have you seen? what do you understand that has tra transpi transpired? >> reporter: we arrived at the scene about four hours ago, and we were on site before any officers arrived. we went to the house where the suspect lived and had connections to, and the gentleman who was in the home at the time refused to come out. he had a gun strapped around his chest and he was asked for interviews and he refused. we got video, what you do when you are at this kind of thing, and that's when about half a dozen police officers rolled up to the scene. several of them were in tactical gear, and at that point, they pulled the man out of the house
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and callhaul him away in the baf one of the vehicles. i do not know if he was taken away under arrest or in questioning. about a two-block radius is roped off and no one is allowed in or out of that radius. >> two questions. do we know the relationship on the record of the man to the suspect, and do police have any reason to believe beyond just suspecting it in this kind of thing there is anything awaiting them inside the house? >> reporter: we do not know if the suspect is related to the man that we saw at the house. that same man who was taken away by officers several hours ago. the first answer would be no. we don't know if there is a connection. the second would be officers from what we can see are still investigating. it's an active scene and they haven't been able to tell us information as to what they found in the house, if there is any reason to believe the
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suspect that was killed is re t related to the man they took into custody. more questions than answers. thank you. tara hall is with kshb, kansas city. >> let's speak clear in terms of what we are able to say about the officers that lost their lives. we have the names and some very basic information about the two baton rouge police department officers as well as the. montrell jackson, he was 32 years old, but a veteran police officer at that young age. he had been in the police department for a decade. matthew gerald lost his life today in baton rouge as a police officer, matthew gerald was older than montrell jackson. he is 41 years old, but had been
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serving less time. less than a year. there are other reports in the press today that this may have been basically a second career for matthew gerald after serving a number of years in one, possibly two branches of the u.s. military. he was on the baton rouge police department, serving for less than a year. both of them died, in addition the east baton rouge sheriff's deputy was 45 years old and his name was brad garafola. he worked in civil processing and fore closures, and we have photos of all three of those officers, and there are we believe three other officers who have been wounded including one who was described this evening as being in critical condition and fighting for his life. that's a 41-year-old sheriff's deputy who worked in the uniform patrol traffic position.
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18 years in the office, and in critical condition in addition to the two other deputies -- police officers who were wounded in this attack today. >> we also realize a number of you especially those of you on facebook have seen writings of the officer jackson, three days after the killing in the police involved shooting of alton sterling. he wrote, i'm tired physically and emotionally. disappointed in some family, friends and officers for some reckless comments, but hey. what's in your heart. i want to send prayers to everybody affected by this tragedy. these are trying times. please don't let hate infect your heart. this city must and will get better. any protesters, officers, friends, family or whoever, if you see me and need a hug or want to say the prayer, i got you. unbelievable.
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lawrence o'donnell is with us. we all know him of course, as our own lawrence o'donnell and a veteran of capitol hill and washington, but he has also spent a good bit of his life looking into the subject of policing. he is the author of the book "deadly force" which came out over three decades ago. we have three more police officers dead in this country. this follows five dead in dallas. we had the head of the international police chief association on earlier, and at a certain point, you don't know what to ask. what would be your advice in what would you want to hear from the 18,000 police chiefs in this country? >> what they know is something that doesn't emerge on what we do. these are horrific stories in the clusters we just saw in dallas and now in baton rouge.
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they are extraordinary and unusual. they know that officers killed in the line of duty has been on a slope downward for decades. when i first began researching this 30 years ago, it was double the amount we have in a typical year. it was 120 in a typical year, police officers killed. we are down in a tip yypical ye now to about 60. that makes the last two weeks extraordinary. most police departments don't lose anyone and small ones, 600. though don't lose anyone in a typical year. to be hit like this in one day and dallas to be hit like that is devastating. that is unique and not an experience that other police departments around the country have had. new york city has been one of the few police departments that has lost multiple officers in individual incidents. but this is truly rare stuff,
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and poisonous stuff now. the things we're learning about the shooters in the last two cases, military veterans. using what they learned about firearms against police officers. clearly in premeditated designs to do this. this is something -- this particular fe no, ma'phenomenon something police officers haven't been up against. >> it's important to have that context in the number of officers the way that number has dropped over the year and that's why it has been so shocking to lose eight in these attacks in a short period of time. from that universe, is there anyway to tell how they might change because of these losses and attacks? >> you know, this is actually
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good news. there isn't evidence in the data as a result of police being killed that the police behavior within that jurisdiction changes. you don't see for example more shootings then by a police department that suffers losses. and that's good news. you don't want to see that. you don't want to see changes in behavior as a result of this in that way. police departments know that this can happen at any moment. it's such an oddity those jobs have become safer and safer, but that's only theoretical to each police officer who puts on the badge and it's theoretical to them they have gone down because none of them know who among them is going to be next. >> lawrence o'donnell. thanks. to lawrence's point, at your local police department whenever you live, the monuments and
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plaques to any police officers who lost their lives in job related june violengun violence big deal. it's not like america is mayberry, but point well-taken. three flat beds with police cars on them. they are either cars with rounds with them, or god forbid the cars the three cars the officers responded in. they are swept up in this terrible, terrible crime today in baton rouge being carted out on flat bed trucks. another break. we're back with more after this.
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. the obama administration has totally blown it as far as the cities are concerned. the crisis in the cities today is because of the failed policies of the last eight years. people living in america's cities, their lives are much worse off. he promised things would be better, but they're not. the jobless rates are higher and the unrest is more intense. the distrust of law enforcement is more acute than ever. that's because things start at the top. the events of the last two weeks with the attorney general, a meeting with meeting with president clinton two days before his wife testifies before the fbi and then a whitewash of
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what everybody understands in america is a clear violation of l law? these things at the top set the attitudes in the cities as well. if you can't have respect for the attorney general and fbi, you will find that people are feeling oppressed because of the problems, and they won't have respect for the police. >> paul manafort. >> that was an interview with chris matthews. asking about baton rouge and the other main story we're covering tonight. he extrapolated that to the broader cities. what he was saying about unemployment being higher, that's not true, but in terms of the politics of what he is trying to do is he is saying that lawlessness and disrespect for law enforcement starts at the top with hillary clinton, and bill clinton, and that
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explains why there is unrest in the streets and disrespect for police officers, and then what he was asked about was violence towards police officers. that was a provocative claim by the trump de facto campaign manager. andrea mitchell joins us now. she is at the republican convention in cleveland. andrea, do we know yet tonight about a response from the hillary clinton campaign? the other side of the partisan aisle? >> reporter: they responded to baton rouge with a very calm and measured statement saying that this is an assault on all of us and we have to hold tight together, be respectful for and with each other. it was a very quiet, calm written statement. hillary clinton will be out campaigning and doing five events in three states. starting in cincinnati, so she is going to be in ohio tomorrow at the naacp convention sthat
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donald trump is not attending, but he says that's the week of his convention. she will be doing her base checking this week. not only registrating voters, but she will be in minnesota with the federation of teachers. with strong union support in nevada and minnesota and ohio. she won't be quiet at all. at the end of the week, she will be naming her running mate on friday or saturday in the state of what we believe will be the state of florida. that has been reported. there won't be silence from the clinton camp, but this is a theme that donald trump in labeling her crooked hillary which he repeated just tonight on "60 minutes," he keeps referring to her the brand of crooked hillary, and like lyin' ted, they stick with voters and this was trying to go after her on foreign policy. this is a focus on law and order and national security. going right at what hillary clinton might consider her
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strength, and trying to rebrand her in this era after not nonly benghazi, because they will bring out the author of "13th the filmmaker. they'll have patricia smith, the very angry mother of one of the four that died in ben zazy. so strong national security presence and then malania trump. they will have people whose children and relatives and to say the incredibly offensive land wage of illegal aliens.
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language that we do not use on nbc or msnbc. so there will be a lot, hillary clinton is up by five points, but still 55% of those polls show the e-mail scandal. she is taking a hit since the fbi director's criticisms of her. and what was certainly something that can be turned into a weakness after what we have seen in nice, turkey, brussels. donald trump tried to take all of these things and turn it against clinton. >> andrea, i hate to even
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reference the idea of political protocol any more. is it -- i don't think it is unprecedented, but it is unusual that hillary clinton is going to be doing five events in three states during the opposing party's convention there is no promise you will lie low, but doesn't the opposing can case usually take a week off. >> we have not had back to back conventions. so the calendar does dictate some of this. they need to build some momentum. and we think they will try to do exactly what the republicans did successfully to a certain extent to barack obama eight years ago
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in unveiling sarah palin, if you will, with a lot of feign fair on the day after that big announcement. so a friday or saturday announcement to step on donald trump's acceptance message. but there is an understanding, but they understand she needs to fight back. the language. so it will be so much more pronounced than in previous years. many of them i was out. it was very memorable. in the 70s and 80s, and those in the 90s, you have never seen
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this kind of language. >> i think you stay up at night and watch c-span. >> so does brian williams. >> thank you, andrea mitchell. >> our viewers that watched us at all during this political season he followed his own. former general council, we talked for so long, not that you were advocating the position, but the never trump movement, how many roadblocked could be thrown up at the convention. how many rurals changes could be attempted. none of that happened.
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so what do you now expect to happen? >> it was easier to get publicity and votes. it will be something of an attempt to try and make the points. they tried to get rules changes. they will try to get things on the floor. it is a large order. get the chair to recognize you to be able to make those points. so tomorrow we will see parliamentary maneuverings. it will be contained in a december crea discreet time. >> so ben, could it be after all of this without president's bush there, john kasich, what could air on television could be among the more unified gop of recent
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time? >> certainly possible. the convention organizers know how to run the program. that may not be a message that gets amplified as other campaigns can. what you have seen with the pence rollout is a campaign that didn't have value day tors out there taking the message on. it will be interesting to see if that is something that the trump campaign manages to do. it will make it more challenging to get any good feelings that may come from this convention out into the public. >> counsellor, thank you. we will be talking to you along the way. we have miles to go as we continue. we will continue our coverage on the other side of this break with chris matthews.
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good evening, i'm chris matthews. here we are in the hall where it all begins tomorrow. a political ritual, a four day j jamboree of political showmanship. all of the horror in baton rouge, the show here must go on. . the 2016 marriage of the traditional republican party with the new york real estate tycoon. tomorrow here in this famous

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