tv The Place for Politics 2016 MSNBC July 17, 2016 9:00pm-10:01pm PDT
for the 5 million americans living with alzheimer's, and millions more who feel its effects. let's walk together to make an even bigger impact and end alzheimer's for good. find your walk near you at alz.org/walk. >> welcome back. we have been in breaking news coverage for most of this day because of the news that greeted us this morning from baton rouge, louisiana, the deaths of three police officers there. we had a briefing from politicians, statewide politicians, law enforcement at the state and local level. here is how they put the order of events. >> -- shooter scenario in baton
rouge, no active scenario that involv involves shooter in the city of baton rouge. we believe that the person that shot and killed our officers, that he is a person that was shot and killed at the scene. that's what we know right now. but we do not believe, or do we have any other shooter held up in any other area in the baton rouge area, but understand this investigation has a lot of moving parts and pieces. we'll be moving and going on each with every one of those, but right now, there is no active shooter scenario situation going on in baton rouge. today at approximately 8:40 a.m., several louisiana law enforcement officers were shot. a call came in to central dispatch the baton rouge city police department indicating there was a guy carrying a rifle, walking in that particular area. that was the information that came into us.
multiple officers were transported for treatment. three officers have died from injuries. two from the baton rouge police department, and one from east baton rouge. one east baton rouge deputy is in critical conditions. two additional officers suffered non-life-threatening wounds. at 8:40 a.m., officers at the scenes store observed the individual, standing behind the beauty supply store holding a rifle. at 8:42 a.m., reports received of shots fired. 8:44, reports received of officers down on the scene. at 8:45, reports received of more shots being fired. 8:46 a.m., the suspect, wearing all black, standing near a car
wash, located right next to the convenience store. at 8:48, our emergency units starting arriving at the scene to start approaching and getting the bodies that were at the scene to render first aid. officers engaged the subject at that particular time and he ultimately died at the scene. state police and multiple agencies responded to the scene in an attempt to secure the area and identify possible potential suspects and further threats in the area. >> it was hell on earth in other words this morning in baton rouge. sarah dallof is as close to journalists can get to where all of that took place. i can tell there's some loosening up of traffic behind you. >> reporter: that's correct, brian. they have opened up the road here, one of the main thorough fares in baton rouge, opened it up to public half about an hour
ago. this followed a day with hundreds of officers here responding to the shooting, gathering surveillance video. what if anything that shows, we don't know yet. also taking photos and documenting the scene here. now, we have also learned more about the three law enforcement officers killed today. montrell jackson, 32 years old, he was with the baton rouge sheriff's office, and we have just confirmed from the east baton rouge -- i'm sorry, montrell jackson was with the baton rouge police department, and we've just heard from the east baton rouge sheriff's office that the deputy killed from their department was 45-year-old brad gara foalo. been with them for more than two decades. the remaining victim, we're still waiting for the name to be
released. one of the injured officers is still in extremely critical condition tonight. all of these men were married and had families. the family of alton sterling, they have released a message as well, calling for peace and an end to the violence here in baton rouge, as we get ready for sunset 12 hours after the shooting in baton rouge. back to y back to you. >> peace would be a great thing. after that scene, our eyes have been glued on kansas city. at the end of the last hour, we were running video of something of a stand-off when police, we assume armed with warrants, two-minute open the door of the last known address of the gunman. local media is reporting they
were met with a shotgun or at least a long weapon. our justice correspondent pete williams has been following this story from baton rouge across the country to kansas city. pete? >> well, our best information, brian, is that video which was taken some time ago, that the man who had the house, was taken out of the house in handcuffs and put in the back of a police wagon. so i believe they're now preparing to start that search there, but they did have to resolve that, so this is picture from earlier this evening. back to baton rouge, you saw the news conference earlier, where they said they didn't think they had anybody else they were searching for. they now believe that the gunman, gavin long, whose house you saw the authorities outside in kansas city preparing to search, that they believe he acted alone. so they're preparing to search his house. they'll go through his
computers, his electronic media for anything that would shed light on the motive. we do know some things about him. he turned 29 just today. he served five years in the marine corps as a computer specialist. he was deployed to iraq for six months in 2008. he would have been trained on how to use a rifle. he had a considerable web presence, called himself cosmo, describing himself as a freedom strategist, mental game coach and a nutritionist. and he also had a twitter feed in which he was saying that there comes a time when people have to take action to protect their own, or they'll end up, in his words, like native americans, extinct. that was something he posted just last week. so authorities are looking at
whether he's connected to any organization. they haven't found any indication of that. he has said that he's not affiliated with any organizations. although at the time he was talking about that, he wasn't talking about organizations that are involved in violence. authorities are also looking into whether he had any dealings with a movement known as sovereign citizens. these are folks who question the authority of the federal government, question the authority of most local governments. they often file lawsuits and liens against public officials. they don't believe in the u.s. currency and so forth. they generally are not violent, but there have been some violent encounters between sovereign citizens and police in the past, but that's just one of many things they're looking at in his past. so it's a complicated picture here of someone who had some views that certainly as we look at them now, seem quite odd.
and pete, in plain english, there comes a kind of sameness in the aftermath of things like this, people like you and see say, well, the signs were right here, and here it is. it's always gotten to me that you can look back, pull apart the pieces of this and lord knows what we'll find over the next few days. >> well, that's true. of course the trick for law enforcement is, there's lots of people saying all kinds of things all the time, and how do you filter them out and decide which are the people who might become violent? there's certainly, as far as we know, no violent encounters with police in the past. he had some civil court action over a tax issue that apparently was resolved. he was divorced. but there's though criminal record that we know of that he
has. and he was honorably discharged from the marine corps, so no signs here that he was a ticking time bomb. >> i want to bring in jim cavanaugh. i wanted to ask you specifically about the references pete has made. he said that law enforcement is looking into possible links to a sovereign citizens group, and we've also heard from cal perry earlier that some of the online footprint of the support, it's interesting, it's considerable. there's a lot of it. pete described some of it as just plain odd. but in terms of trying to find affiliations or a motive or associations here, if there is a sovereign citizen link here, what would be the implications there in terms of him as a
threat to law enforcement? >> right, rachel. sovereign citizen movement is made up of people who don't believe that government has any authority over them at all. it basically was rooted in white hate. it came from white hate, but african americans do get involved in the sovereign citizen movement as well, but it's mostly white. they're anti-tax, anti-government. they believe the government has no authority over them. they believe when the currency was changed in the '30s to the gold standard, that everything changed. they believe that the country is governed under admiralty law and they're not subject to admiralty law, and they talk about the flags that are in the courts. they print bogus legal documents with all capital letters that they believe absolves them of
any responsibilities, they don't want to pay taxes. if they're confronted by law enforcement, they sometimes become violent. sovereign citizens killed two west memphis, arkansas, a few years ago, they've killed officers in south carolina and around the country, but generally they do it more in a defensive stance. now, if he had a sovereign citizen mind-set, you know, what would go along with that was a person walking down a double yellow line with a rifle and anybody who tells me what to do, i'm going to kill. i'm just not figure to submit to your authority. but i would also be thinking, based on the behavior we saw today, the climate there, what happened in dallas, the garb of the shooter, the totality of the facts, that some of what pete reported, that he may be embracing some black hate groups, like the new black panther party, or the african american defense league, who are both in baton rouge and who have
been calling for the murder of officers. doesn't mean he's a member of the group but he may be embracing those ideas. someone with the mind-set of a sovereign, which is very anti-government, you can't make me do anything, i'm not subject to your law, i'm a free man traveling upon the land, they often don't have license plates, just a piece of cardboard, they don't have a driver's license, a social security card. no one has authority over them. but that can also morph into identifying with other groups. sovereign citizens often say that the government tries to make them slaves. so we've seen african americans also go into sovereign groups. so the guy may be on the edge of sovereign groups, black nationalist groups, even though he's a lone actor. but i thought just to close one thought here, your interview of the witness in the last half hour was very important, where you talked to the witness about the man laying by the dumpster.
and it really was important. was that a plain-clothed officer? >> that's exactly right. it's a threat that we haven't been able to tie off in terms of that witness report. he's been consistent all day long in saying he saw a person who he didn't believe was in uniform laying on the ground near that shooter. jim cavanaugh, thank you for being here tonight. at times like this, part of us needs to understand the situation, we need to understand whether or not it's linked to an ongoing threat, whether there may be other people involved, or whether this may have been directed by some ongoing organization. there's another part of us who, i think, at least speaking for myself, have not just disinterest, but an active feeling that i don't want to know the motive of the shooter other than to know if there's ongoing danger, because i don't want to give voice to whatever
twisted mind-set somebody they have used to talk themselves in doing this, or that it was justified. but in reporting this, we do have to figure out where this came from and whether it's an isolated incident. so we have to walk that line in trying to suss that stuff out. >> this is not the stuff of the civilized world, that's for sure. >> we'll take a break here. when we come back, among other things, again today the task fell to the president of talking to the country about another uprising, another outgrowth of gun violence, the unsavory task of discussing the fact that plea police officers were killed in baton rouge. >> five days ago, i traveled to dallas for the memorial service of the officers who were slain there. i said that that killer would not be the last person who tries to make us turn on each other,
nor will today's killer. it remains up to us to make sure that they fail. whoo! don't do it. don't you dare. i don't think so! [ sighs ] it's okay, big fella. we're gonna get through this together. [ baseball bat cracks ] nice rip, robbie. ♪ raaah! when you bundle home and auto insurance through progressive, you get more than just a big discount. i'm gonna need you to leave. you get relentless protection. [ baseball bat cracks ]
>> my fellow americans, only we can prove, through words and through deeds, that we will not be divided and we're going to have to keep on doing it, again and again and again. that's how this country gets united. that's how we bring people of goodwill together. only we can prove that we have the grace and the character and the common humanity to end this kind of senseless violence. >> the president mentioned the news media. the president mentioned social media. and he talked about our politicians and our politics and our rhetoric, after he was finished, donald trump tweeted, president obama just had a news conference, but he doesn't have a clue. our country is a divided crime scene, and it will only get worse. tomorrow's night theme at the
convention, the parties long ago have divided these various nights into themes as if programming a primetime television show is make america safe again. katy tur has covered the trump campaign for us for this past year, she is outside trump tower, where tonight's "60 minutes" interview took place. what do you have? >> caller: in addition to that tweet, he released a statement saying, we grieve for the officers killed in baton rouge. how many law enforcement officers have to be killed? we demand law and order. this is a bit of a departure in the way that it's not quite as magnanimous as his last statements were in the immediate aftermath of dallas. but it's a major departure in the aftermath of orlando, when he was trying to take credit for calling an attack like that, on
orlando, saying congrats -- or thank you for the congrats. in a day when people are asking to put aside politics in order to ease concerns, donald trump is not doing that, and neither is his running mate, indiana governor mike pence, both of whom saying that the problems in this country are because of a lack of leadership. in the past few weeks, we've seen donald trump try to style himself as the law enforcement candidate, the one who will uphold the rules of this country and try to contrast himself with what he says are the democrats, in hillary clinton and president obama, saying that they have not been on the side of the rule of law. we don't know what donald trump will be saying at the convention this week. we're not entirely sure when he'll be showing up at the convention, whether it will be before wednesday night. but he'll be speaking on thursday night, and be it off a teleprompter or off the cuff, i imagine we'll hear another version of donald trump trying to convince the public that he
is the law and order candidate. we're seeing he and governor pence coordinate that message, and they stand with police officers, whereas democrats don't. they stand with police officers, whereas black lives matter do not. they believe they can find unity through standing with officers and upholding law and order. other people take issue with that. >> katy tur, mid town, manhattan, thank you. historians as you know, tend to be smarter and more learned and more reflective than the rest of us and our next guest proves that thesis. that's michael besh loss, presidential historian and author. we asked you here tonight with a single purpose in mind, to those of us, especially in this line of work, who are forced to kind of cover and all too often narrate events as they go by,
too often tragedies. i can't remember a tempo of momentum events quite like we've been through these last few days and weeks, a, and b, what are the other gatherings, political conventions that took place at a time and an event tempo, anything remotely like this in our history? >> well, the year that you really have to go back to, brian, and thank you for the kind word, is 1968. there had been tragic assassinations of martin luther king and robert kennedy. after king was assassinated, there were riots in a hundred cities. there was huge anti-war protests and foment and there was a real feeling that society was coming apart. lyndon johnson, who was president after robert kennedy's death, saying, we have to make sure that this does not tear apart the fabric of our society. that was the backdrop of the
republican convention at which richard nixon was nominated and then of course the anti-war versus police confrontations in chicago, the democrats at the end of 1968. the thing that interested me, we've been hearing donald trump not for the first time talking about law and order. that was the big issue for george wallace, the third-party candidate that year, but also for richard nixon, who in his acceptance speech convention said when you have unprecedented violence of the kind we've seen, that's time for new leadership. >> it's rachel here. good to have you with us. >> thank you. >> there was an interview tonight on "60 minutes," first big interview for donald trump and his running mate. i want to play you a clip of this, not because i want a punditry reaction from you, but just because i'm wondering if you can give us any historical
analogy, historical context for a presidential candidate and his running mate having a real fundamental difference on an issue that we thought the presidential candidate wanted to run on. this is about the iraq war. >> right. >> obviously donald trump has been going after hillary clinton for having voted for the iraq war. mike pence also voted for and vocally supported the iraq war. they were asked about that contradiction tonight on "60 minutes." >> we'll be fascinated. >> when the world trade center comes tumbling down, i have friends -- >> we did go to war, if you remember. we went to iraq. >> yeah, you went to iraq and that was handled so badly. and that was a war we shouldn't have done -- >> your running mate voted for it. >> i don't care. >> what do you mean you don't care that he voted?
it's a long time ago and he voted that way, and they were also misled. >> but you've harped on this. >> and i was against the war in iraq from the beginning. >> but you've used that against hillary, that it's an example of her bad judgment. >> many people have. >> what about him? >> he's entitled to make a mistake. >> but she's not? >> but she's not. >> your running mate voted for it, i don't care. is there a historical allegory for this, or is this something new? >> it's a pretty rough-edge rollout as some people on our air were saying a little bit earlier. i was thinking of 1980 when george h.w. bush was asked by ronald reagan to run with him as vice president? and reagan very carefully said
that means you know you have to support the platform in every respect which included a very different view on abortion rights. he had been pro-choice and bush said i will support the platform in every respect. it almost looks as if donald trump and mike pence did not have that kind of a talk before this was done. >> michael, in modern times, have there been presidential candidates who didn't much run with their vice presidential candidate, in the sense that we've been trying to figure out -- gene robinson talking earlier on the air trying to figure out how another political principle integrates into something as unusual as the trump campaign and the trump organization. it's in so many ways an atypical movement that he's built, so centered on his personality. so far they don't seem to be comfortably integrating as a team, even down to the small
stuff like agreeing on a logo and how to do joint interviews. have there been other modern examples where the president and the vice presidential candidate sort of went their own ways and didn't run together? >> well, the word is modern, as you've said for most of american history, there wasn't too much integration. but now we really expect that. one thing we saw was 1988 when dan quayle had a very rough rollout, as we all remember in new orleans when george h.w. bush picked him, and very quickly quayle found that he was campaigning in very small towns, very distant from the presidential candidate. >> just tell me you're taking copious notes and there's a book inside you to come out from this? >> i'm fascinated and maybe you'll write it with me. >> start tonight. michael besh loss, thank you very much for being a part of our coverage. now a break in our coverage,
. >> we are back as we follow this story from baton rouge, louisiana. it led investigators to the suburbs of kansas city, where they advanced on the suspect's home. local media reports say they were met by a man with a gun. joining us on the phone from near the home in missouri is reporter tara hall from our nbc
station kshb. first of all, tara, is this in raytown, which would make it very rural to the south and east kansas city? >> this is in kansas city proper, but to the southeast part of town. >> okay, and what have you seen? what do you understand has transpired? >> reporter: we arrived at the scene about four hours ago, on site before any officers arrived. we went to the house where the suspect lived or had connections to. and the gentleman who was in the home at the time refused to come out. we did see that he had a gun strapped around his chest. he asked multiple times for interviews and he refused. at that point, that's probably when about half a dozen police officers rolled up to the scene, several of them intact cal gear.
at that point, they pulled the man out of the house and hauled him away in the back of one of the vehicles. at this point, i do not know if he was taken away under rest or if he was just taken in for questioning. right now, about a two-block radius is roped off and officers are not allowing anyone in or out of that two-block radius. >> two questions. do we know the relationship on the record of the man to the suspect and do police have any reason to believe beyond just suspecting it in this kind of thing that there is anything awaiting them inside the house? >> we do not know if the suspect is related to the man that we saw at the house, the same man who was taken by officers several hours ago. so the first answer would be, no, we do not know if there's any question. the second, officers are still investigating, it is an active scene. they haven't been able to tell
us any information as to what they found in the house, if there's any reason to believe that the suspect who was killed is related to the man they took into custody. so at this point, more questions than answers. >> well, thank you very much for reporting live from there, tara hall, with our nbc station kshb, kansas city. >> we should be clear with our audience in terms what we're able to say about the officers who lost their lives. we have specific information about three. montrell jackson, a baton rouge police officer, 32 years old, but a veteran police officer at that young age. serving in the baton rouge police department for a decade. matthew gerald also lost his life today in baton rouge. matthew gerald was older than front r-- montrell jackson, but
he had been serving for less time, less than a year. there are other reports, that this may have been a second career for matthew gerald after serving a number of years in one, possibly two branches of the u.s. military. so matthew gerald serving as an officer for less than a year. both died today. the east baton rouge sheriff's deputy, brad garafola, with them for 24 years, assisting in civil foreclosures. we have photos of all three of those officers and again, there are, we believe, three other officers who have been wounded, including one wound described earlier this evening as being in critical condition and fighting for his life.
a 41-year-old east baton rouge sheriff's office, with 18 years of service, in critical condition, in addition to two other police officers who were wounded in this attack today. >> we also realize a number of you, especially those of you on facebook have probably seen circulated the writings of officer jackson from july 8th, three days after the killing and the police-involved shooting of alton sterling. he wrote, i'm tired physically and emotionally. disappointed in some family, friends, and officers for some reckless comments, but hey, what's in your heart. i personally want to send prayers out to everyone directly affected by this tragedy. these are trying times, said officer montrell jackson, july 8. please don't let hatred infect your heart. i'm working in the streets, so if you see me and need a hug,
and want to say a prayer, i got you. unbelievable. lawrence o'donnell is with us, veteran of capitol hill, but he's also spent a bit of his life looking into the subject of policing, author of the book "deadly force." three more police officers dead, following five dead in dallas. we had the head of the international police chiefs association on earlier. and at a certain point, you don't know what to ask. what would be your advice? what would you want to hear from the 18,000 police chiefs in this country? >> well, what they know is something that we do in the reporting of these stories. these horrific murders in
clusters, in dallas, in baton rouge, are extraordinarily unusual, but what they do know is that officers killed in the line of duty has been on a slope downward for decades. when i first began researching this 30 years ago, it was double what we have now. well over 120 in a typical year killed. we are now down in a typical year now to about 60, which makes the last two weeks extraordinary. small police departments like baton rouge, they don't lose anyone in a typical year. so to be hit like this, in one day, for dallas to be hit in one day, that is devastating, that is unique. that is not an experience that other police departments around the country have had. new york city has been one of the few police departments that have lost multiple officers in
individual incidents, but this is truly rare stuff, and poisonous stuff. the more we're learning about both the shooters in the last two cases, military veterans, using what they learned about firearms, against police officers, clearly in premeditated designs to do this. this is something, this particular phenomena, is something that american police have not been up against before. >> lawrence, i think it's very helpful to have that context in terms of the number of police officers killed in the line of duty, the way that number has dropped over the years, and that is in part why it has been so shocking to lose eight officers in these two attacks, in such a short period of time. from that universe of data, from your work on it over the decades, is there any way to tell how policing might change, either in these cities
specifically or broadly across the country, because of these losses, because of these attacks. >> this is actually good news, there isn't evidence in the data that as a result of police being killed in the line of duty that the police behavior within that jurisdiction changes. you don't see, for example, more shootings, then, by a police department that suffers losses and, that's good news. you don't want to see that. you don't want to see changes in behavior as a result of this that way. police departments know that this can happen at any moment. it's such an oddity, but these jobs have become safer and safer and safer over time, but that is only theoretical to each police officer who puts on the badge and straps on the gun every day. it's only theoretical to them that these numbers have gone down, because none of them know who among them is going to be next. >> lawrence o'donnell, thanks. to lawrence's point, at your
local police department, wherever you live, the monuments and plaques to any police officers who lost their lives in job-related gun violence, that's a big deal. it remains a big deal. it's not like america is may berry, but lawrence's point, well taken. the shot we just showed you, three flat beds with police cars on them, these are either cars with rounds in them that have become evidence or god forbid the cars the three officers responded in, cars that are swept up in this terrible, terrible crime today in baton rouge, being carted out on flat bed trucks. another break, we're back with more after this.
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>> the obama administration has totally blown it as far as the cities. the people in american cities, their lives are much worse off. obama promised things would be better, but they're not. jobless rates are higher. the unrest is more tense. the distrust of law enforcement is more acute than ever. it's probably things start at the top. the events of the last two weeks, the attorney general meeting with president clinton in a secret tarmac session, two
days before his wife testifies before the fbi and then a whitewash of what everybody understands was cleerarly a violation of law. if you can't have respect for the attorney general, if you can't have respect for the fbi, you're going to find the people in the city who are feeling pressed because of the problems this government has caused, are not going to have respect for the local police. >> paul manafort. >> head of the trump campaign, that was during an interview with chris matthews, who was asking about baton rouge and the other major story outside the republican convention that we're talking about. paul manafort, talking about unemployment being higher since president obama took over, that's not true. but in terms of the politics, what he's trying to do, he's saying that lawlessness and disrespect for law enforcement starts at the top, starts with
hillary clinton and bill clinton and that explains why there's unrest in the streets and disrespect for police officers and again, what he was asked about was violence toward police officers, so that was a pretty provocative claim by the trump de facto campaign manager on our air. andrea mitchell joins us now. she's at the convention in cleveland. do we know tonight about a response from the hillary clinton campaign, the other side of the aisle tonight in terms of how they're responding to baton rouge? >> they responded to baton rouge with a calm, measured statement, saying that this is an assault on all of us and we all have to hold tight together be respectful for and with each other. so it's a very quiet, calm written statement. hillary clinton is going to be doing five events in three states. starting in cincinnati, so
she'll be in ohio tomorrow at the naacp convention, which donald trump and not attending. but she's going to be doing all of her base-checking, not only registering voters, but she'll be in minnesota, with the federation of teachers. so strong union support in nevada, minnesota, and ohio. but she's not going to be quiet at all during the convention. at the end of the week, we expect you'll be naming her running mate in florida, that's what's been reported. so there's not going to be silence from the clinton camp, but this is a theme that donald trump n labelling her crooked hillary which he repeated just tonight on "60 minutes," keeps referring to the brand of crooked hillary, just like lyin' ted, these things do tend to stick. so what you'll see on the first
flig night of the convention is a focus on law and order, going at what mk might consider her strength, and trying to rebrand her after benghazi and they'll bring out the filmmaker of "13 days" the angry, grieving morth of one of the four americans who died in benghazi, general michael flynn, some strong national security presence and then of course melania trump, also talking about immigration. they're going to be painting this administration, and they paint it as clinton-obama, rather than obama-clinton, as being weak on immigration. they'll have people whose relatives were killed by undocumented workers and you know the platform has been written to say not illegal immigrants, but to say the considerably offensive language
of illegal aliens, language that we don't use on nbc or msnbc, because it is such a pejorative term. so there's going to be a lot here going after clinton and in our poll she's up by five points in the national poll, but still 55% of those polls say that the e-mail scandal really disturbs them now, it was only 42% last fall after her benghazi testimony. so she's taken a hit after the fbi director's criticisms of her. and certainly after the san diego foreign policy speech could now be transformed into a week after the republicans feel, after we've seen in nice, and paris, and dallas. donald trump has tried to take iraq, afghanistan, and use it
against clinton. >> hate to reference the idea of political protocol anymore, because i feel like we don't have a rule book or accepted norms in this field anymore. almost nothing is unprecedented in politics, but is it unusual that hillary clinton is going to be doing, as you said, five events in three states? >> yes -- >> -- during the opposing party's convention? i mean, there's no progrmise th you'll lie low and do nothing, but doesn't the opposing candidate sort of take a week out of the spotlight while the other convention convenes? >> yes, but we haven't had back-to-back conventions and this early in july rather than august also. so the calendar does dictate some of this. they need to build some momentum leading up to their announcement of a vice president fial runnin mate. and they need to do to the
republicans what they did to barack obama in unveiling sarah palin on a lot of fanfare on that day after the big obama acceptance speech in denver. that's what they are at least talking about doing, with a friday announcement, or at the latest, a saturday announcement to step on donald trump's acceptance message. but you're right, there's an understanding of lying low, but i think they feel she needs to be fight back, because of the way she's going to be caricature idea, the language has been so much more vektive than i recall from previous years. i've been watching the replay of many of the conventions i was at. when you hear the rhetoric at some of the conventions in -- well, 1948 was certainly memorab memorable, but in the '70s and
'80s and '90s, you've never seen lo language like this on the campaign trail. so there's a need to fight back. >> i have a suspicion that you watch footage of old conventions. [ laughter ] >> either of us. >> thank you, andrea mitchell. >> and our viewers who watched us at all during this political season have watched ben ginsburg who has followed his own kind of emotional journey, i think that's fair to say. >> it is. >> former general counsel of the rnc, bush-cheney campaign, romney campaign. we talked for so long, not that you are advocating the position, but we talked for so long about the never trump movement, about how many roadblocks and rules changes could be thrown up at the convention. none of that happened.
so what do you now expect to happen, especially any exjencys there? >> turns out it was either to get publicity than votes in the rules committee. i think there will be something of an attempt to try and make the points that never trump and the conservative grassroots movement tried to get rules changes. they'll try and do some things on the floor, but it's a large order to be able to break through the clutter and break through the noise, get the chair to recognize you to be able to make those points. i think tomorrow we'll see some parliamentary maneuverings, but it will be contained in a pretty discreet time period, i think, wi convention organizers. so there will be probably a loud noise, but probably not a substantive result. >> so could it be without presidents bush there, without mccain, without romney, without the host state john kasich, what could air on television could be among the more unified gop
looking conventions of recent time? >> certainly possible. the convention organizers know how to run the program so that the message they want to convey can get conveyed. now, that may not be a message that gets amplified as previous campaigns have. for example, what you saw with the pence rollout was a campaign that didn't have validators out there taking the message on. that's something that will be interesting to see if the trump campaign manages to do. and as andrea mentioned, the timing of the conventions will make it more challenging to get any good feelings that may come from this convention out into the public. >> counsellor, thank you. we'll be talking to you along the way. we have miles to go along the way. as we continue, we'll continue our coverage on the other side of this break, with chris matthews.
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uh, how about an island? island, yeah. yeah. yeah. [laughing] were you laughing in your fantasy? yeah! me, too. [gasps] good evening. i'm chris matthews at the republican convention hall in cleveland, and here we are in the hall where it all begins tomorrow. a spectacular political ritual, a four-day political jamboree of show manship, ideology. and with all the horror from baton rouge, the show here must go on. as of now, all of this including donald trump's selection of mike pence as his running mate, the 2016 marriage of the republican party with the real estate tycoon proves the old political maxim that politics does make strange bedfellows. tomorrow in t