tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC September 21, 2016 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
>> lawrence o'donnell, thank you. we are indeed continuing in our live coverage mode as the streets of the 17th largest city in the united states have been for good chunks of tonight out of control. if you've stayed in charlotte, north carolina, for business, perhaps at the hyatt, this is right now the current police line in the foreground there as it inches towards the protesters. in fairness, the population of protesters has greatly dispersed. they were told within the past hour to get off the streets or be subject to arrest. we have heard the mayor of charlotte, north carolina, jennifer roberts, talk to lawrence o'donnell in an interview that candidly in tone at times did not mention the visual going on in that city while she was speaking. she is calling for both sides to, quote, work together for
dialogue. it has not been a night centered around dialogue. all of this stemming, of course, to the fatal shooting of a black man by police, keith lamont scott, age 43. this started tonight with a peaceful protest, if you're familiar with charlotte, you may know they call downtown uptown, it localism we may hear used in media coverage tonight that could be confusing to some folks. you're seeing something that we picked up on the police radio tonight. that's fireworks. a couple folks in the crowd have come armed with fireworks. and it looks candidly worse than it is. now we have seen the use of flash bang grenades, smoke, and tear gas tonight on it's own, but what we just saw there was fireworks. gabe gutierrez among our correspondents whose been there all night, and gabe, take us
what through what you've witnessed beginning with the timeline of tonight's protest starting when it was still daylight, still peaceful. >> reporter: hi there, brian, yes, as you mentioned, this afternoon, this evening started out peacefully. a group of protestered that started and marched into downtown were here outside of the omni hotel on trade street. and that group had come into the epicenter which is not far from here and made it's way through here the situation has greatly gotten much more quiet. the protesters have dispersed for the most part, but there is still a heavy police presence, but as you walk with me, you can see around 8:30, 8:45 or so, that's when things really deteriorated right here. this is exactly where we were standing. and this group of police officers in riot gear. there was a line right over here where some of those hotel officials and detectives are standing and where that
charlotte maclearnberg police department is. that line was right there. and a group of demonstrators came up and they started verbally clashing with the police. things got very heated very quickly. then what happened, we heard some explosions. at the time it was tough to determine it was a flash bang or gunshot. several journalists came here in this area and took cover behind some potted plants that were in this area. you can see there was some debris here from some of these explosions. it was tough to tell whether some people were throwingsome sort of explosive device, but if you could look a little further down where one of those officers is. in that direction, that is where we saw somebody on the ground. it was in the distance and a group of protesters and officers gathered around that person. then, a few minutes after that, they took that person into the hotel. they rushed him in. largely a group of demonstrators. what we learned later is that yes, ems officials said there had been a gunshot victim and that that was a fatal gunshot
transported to the hospital civilian on civilian. throughout the night though, we've seen some changing information and now we know that that was not a fatal gunshot. that the person was is in intensive care. we have not been able to confirm with police that the person we saw right there, that was injured, all they tell us somebody was injured and taken inside. we don't know if that was that same person, but what we can tell you is that witnesses describe a gunshot victim that they took him inside. brian, again, this started out very peacefully. this was a night that local demonstrators had wanted to get their message across. they wanted the world to hear that they were upset with what they see as excessive force, of course throughout the day, the police department and the police chief has taken -- has stressed that mr. scott that the situation of mr. scott is not as it has been playing out on social media. the police department promising a thorough investigation, and now we're hearing that the mayor tomorrow plans to review some of that dash carpal and body cam
footage. it will not be released yet, citing that investigation. the demonstrators here, however, they are wanting that video to be released. they wanted to share that message tonight peacefully. unfortunately, it deinvolved into chaos some time around 8:30, 8:45 right here in front of the omni hotel. throughout the night, we have seen people, you know, it's been kind of ramping up every few minutes. thankfully now, the situation seems to have quieted down quite a bit. and the protesters seem to have dispersed. >> gabe gutierrez, thanks. what you couldn't see, gabe, was the split screen. while you were speaking, and we have seen what appearsing to the latest police action and advancement in that line coming from north to south in your picture. police note that every canister you see coming from police lines isn't necessarily tear gas, sometimes as our jim cavanaugh
has pointed out all evening. they prefer to advance under cover of smoke. we just won't know until we find out from street level correspondent tammie lightener has been at street level at times to her detriment tonight. and tammie, we're able to see the aerial, it's clear they have decided to do another advance in the line until they clear what's left of this block, folks having been told if you're still on the streets, you're subject to arrest. >> reporter: yeah, that's right, brian. this is changed dramatically since we arrived about three hours ago. you can see over here that riot police are still holding their line here. there's only about 50 protesters out here where we are now. a very different scene than three hours ago. i want to direct you over here. if you can see down there, there's some broken glass there. when we got out here, protesters were throwing bottles. they were breaking windows of businesses.
they were smashing in car windows. they were kicking in police vehicles. so, it was -- it escalated very quickly when we were out here. over the last three hours, we have seen 15 people get arrested. both men and women. we have seen two officers get injured. they came from down there, both officers were brought up. they were helped up, it's unclear what their injuries were, but the officers could not walk on their own. both have been transported by medics who were also wearing riot gear. they are going to get help at an area hospital. and brian, as you mentioned, what they've been doing is police have been inching the crowd back, inch by inch, foot by foot. now these riot police have been holding their line, on the other side of the intersection, they've been going very slowly. they've been setting off flash bang grenades which just startingles the crowd and slowly push them back. inch by inch, foot by foot, and
they've managed to move them, at least four blocks back. and eventually the crowd disperses and that's the goal, brian. >> all right. tammie lightner showing us some of the damage there at street level. among the buildings hit and windows broken tonight was a very upscale apartment building there in downtown charlotte. the city of charlotte, as i mentioned, 17th largest in the united states. very proud of the business and banking center they have built. they have been able to attract pro sports teams. they were able to attract the democratic convention. what you see again in the foreground, protesters, increasingly scattering. up top in your picture, this advancing line of police in riot gear. including, but not limited to, kevlar helmets, shields, shielding for their legs and arms. most of them are equipped with
those zip tie handcuffs. many of them have used those tonight. jim cavanaugh formerly with the atf who candidly also talked us through this weekend's incidents with the bomber in the new york area, given his familiarity with armorments and all things that go boom. jim, we're seeing some plain old fireworks and we're seeing some, what appears to be a combination of tear gas and smoke being fired off as the police line advances. >> that's right, brian. what you're seeing here will have good command. they're going very slowly here. they're analyzing the crowd. the commanders watch a live feed. so they have commanders on scene commanders there, but commanders watching the live feed. and you know, they're making the decisions, and they're making the right decisions. this crowd has really thinned out. a lot of people are curious that are there. you don't see anybody carrying any big weapons or sticks or anything. they had the shooting earlier.
and that ramped it up a little bit for them. but i think they've held it pretty steady and i think they stay like this, to get that crowd dispersed, you know get the rest of the night peaceful. and maybe the only serious injury is this citizen that was shot by another citizen. >> jim, i've spent a lot of the evening listening, dialing around police and fire frequencies in charlotte and charlotte mek linberg county. it has been harrowing listenings to the dispatches. at one point officers told to report to a store that was being looted by 30 to 40 individuals. some armed with baseball bats. within the last hour, they were given an address on a corner, three young males, all armed with handguns, but the weapons were not up or drawn. so it has been, you know how the units not assigned to riot duty
have been scrambling. police and fire by the way, there have been small fires set tonight. all over the city. >> that's right. you can get, you know, like the spillover or, you know, people acting out on their own in various neighborhoods, and patrol always has to deal with that. charlotte mecklinberg, pretty good force, couple thousand officers. it is the county there. the city and the county is the same force. so they have a lot of resources. should be able to handle that. but they're going to have to get past this police shooting decision by the chief and the mayor. all that stuff's going to be critical in the day's ahead. how they decide to handle that and district attorney, you know, what they're going to do and say about that. and what facts they're going to release. >> and jim, how do you decide on borders here? how do you decide where your police line stops, where you declare the city streets under
control, and how to advance some more? >> well, you know, as the buildings get thinner and you get into more parking garages and parking lots and bigger banks or industrial buildings, it becomes less exciting for someone to be involved in it. you know, when you're at -- at the front of the omni hotel and it's the center of the uptown district as you pointed out, there's an energy in all of that uptown. just as there is for people who go the restaurant district. there's an energy for the crowd there too. and as you move back to an area that's a bunch of big parking lots and the crowd is thinning. and the violence is dissipating, and the police are moving methodically and slowly and, you know, now's not a time for gas, now is the time to let the gas go away. let the night take over. the people go back home. that crowd is thinning, brian, and the commanders are handling this right now just right.
>> i heard an earlier report, jim, that the number of injured police officers is about 90 minutes ago was being put at seven. having watched this video all night, been listening to police scanners, i find that quite easy to believe. i'll be very surprised if the number isn't higher at the end of the evening. as we say, this is among the more gleaming down downtowns of the younger cities in the united states. and folks in charlotte, north carolina, are awfully proud what have they have built there. we are joined here in the studio by dr. phillip atevia goff who was so helpful to us the night of dallas, texas. because we learned there had been just a horrendous, horrendous mass killing of police officers there. i will embarrass you by reading your titles, president and
co-founder, the center for policing equity, police that works with law enforcement and communities to help strengthen these relationships to top it all off, a visiting scholar at the kennedy school up in harvard. doctor, you've been watching all this with us all night. first of all, how do you sum up what we've seen? >> i wish that i had better words than the last time that we were speaking about this. >> there's a lot of that going around. happens to me every day. >> i wish that we had better language for this. i think what you're starting to see is what happens when we run out of words, right. i won't do the standard, quoting of mlk, but what we are seeing as we're seeing communities that say, i don't want to do it here. i want to go where i feel like my oppressor is. and what i'm hearing from the law enforcements and communities is this, when you see a pattern often enough, and people step in to try and intervene and it still happens, you start to suspect about whether or not it's intentional.
and from the law enforcement folks that we're working with, it's heart breaking when we ask them how is it feeling to be law enforcement? i mean you've seen some of the pictures where they're crying because they can't make sense of all of the killings they've seen. they can make sense of this one and this one, not that one, there's just too many to make sense out of it. when you've got no words, this is what you start to see. >> there have been some kind of overnight heros that i've noticed in the crowd tonight. just watching the coverage. among them, i wrote down his name when i heard it, tuscant romain. if you saw some of the earlier pictures of a gentleman in a white shirt and a tie who was startling the gap between protesters and police, even during the period where police were coming out and doing kind of a snatch and grab of agitators and pulling them back through police lines which really further agitated the crowd, there have been folks trying to straddle that
communication's gap tonight, but you couldn't name two sides more die ya me drinkically opposed. >> that's right. and what i'm hoping we're going to hear more about are the people holding democracy together with their two hands. who are not reaching out to the community and say staying calm. saying that justice can come without violent. that's not the same thing. the people who are going back and finding words that don't calm down, but speak directly to the folks who are out and are most frustrated who feel like they don't have a future at all, the language about the promise of america doesn't apply to them. wie seeing what america can do and how it does apply to them, but there's not a body count to that. there's nothing that's sensational about that. it's regular people doing the regular work of holding democracy together. i'm glad you're calling attention to it. >> i have not addressed the good folks who joined us at 11:00 eastern time for this broadcast. so named because we're in the 11th hour of this presidential campaign, we can rest assured, i
think it's safe to assume that the subject of police-involved shootings and racial disparity will make it's way into the presidential debate monday night. probably taking up more space than perhaps it would have before these shootings we have witnessed in tulsa and in charlotte. doc, the question for you is, we've got apparently either police officer on their person camera or dash camera video, of this shooting. we've got a huge disparity in facts a z you see police on bicycles now coming along the police line. family says, this man, 43 years of age, keith lamont scott was armed with a book. they say he was disabled, police say no, he was armed with a gun. apparently the video helps shed some light on that. the police chief certainly seemed to indicate the facts would differ with the protest. how do you do that when social
media runs at the speed of light? when local laws and case law and just building a case and evidence and something that's going to be a crime scene moves at a different speed. how do you deal with that? >> it's incredibly difficult. we have former law enforcement executives that work with cpe, and they have all uniformly now come out and said that laws, municipal statutes need to be changed because the result of oe pageness and public policy is frustration and rage. you need to find ways to get the video out there, what's happened previously is people who are not used to social media say, well there's got to be due process and who can argue with that? but the reality is when you have such opposed sides and when the videotape has not supported the police officer and so and so lounges and there was no weapon. then it's right for the community. it's only reasonable. i'm sympathetic to folks who
feel like they're hemmed by sympathetic laws. i'm not sympathetic to the folks who have the ability to change the laws and make them more transparent. it's going to make the streets safer on a night like tonight. >> a law in 1919 has no way of anticipating that i'm in my office in new york watching live perry scope coverage from a cell phone of an individual i can see on live cable coverage standing across from the police line. there's no way to anticipate that. there's no way to anticipate body cameras, dash board cameras, and the instantaneousness we've become used to. we demand to see it. >> remember that in charlotte, there's a new law that's about to take effect october 1st. that could anticipate, in fact it doesn't have to do any anticipation, which was written with these social media in mind. and it still doesn't allow for an easy transfer ral and the police to make a call that this is time to go public. as we're in the process of
figuring out how to get this right and unfortunately it probably won't happen at the federal level. it will be state by state. the states that are looking to lead are going to be states that lead with transparency. always remember, as a scientific principle, compliance with the law begins with trust in it and not fear of it. and you can't trust in somebody that cannot show you the truth of their reality. >> and you thought you were going to run out of words. >> i thought i might. >> well, you're not going to, clearly. let's bring in eli portio. charlotte observer reporter who perhaps you were watching the rachel maddow program tonight. we first heard from him on the ground. eli, what can you report, especially the change in the last few minutes? >> well, right now i'm looking at a line of police in downtown charlotte. and they are still occasional booms of pyrotechnic devices and wyffs of tear gas, but things to
be from where i'm standing, somewhat calmer than they were a little while ago. although, i'm still hearing tear gas and it's a little unpredictable right now. >> eli, this may call for a judgment on your part, but i was just saying earlier, i saw a figure of seven injured charlotte police officers, i'm guessing the truth final number could be north of that. and obviously, north of a dozen arrests that we've seen. >> yes. you know, we've seen some people being put in the back of police vehicles. it's unclear exactly how many people have been arrested and how many people have been injured at this point. there are still confrontations going on, i'm watching someone get put in the back of a police van right now. so, those numbers could well rise. >> tell us about your mayor. mayor jennifer roberts a good many of our viewers may have heard her live interview by phone with lawrence o'donnell, by trade, she has been a
diplomat, serving overseas. she was a banker. she was talking tonight in broad terms about charlotte's heritage, both sides talking to each other. peaceful communication, cooperation, and candidly, many people noted in ways that were given the pictures we were showing during the interview. what's her track record been on the subject and playing out on live television? >> well, charlotte is not new to the unfortunate situation of police shootings, fatally of a black man. several years ago, we had a similar situation in which a motorist who was confirmed to be unarmed was killed by a police officer. in that case, the officer was actually arrested and charged and although the officer was eventually acquitted of those charges, it was still pretty unprecedented. so, in that case, they were not huge protests, no one died at
those protests following the acquittal of the officer. charlotte has been here before, and just last year, reacted rather differently to what was a pretty similar situation. >> i don't know if you've heard in the last few minutes or if we're the ones breaking it to you, the governor has declared a state of emergency in charlotte. which clears the way for the use of the national guard kind of underscores that what we've been watching, what you've been witnessing was the fact that they -- this city did not have control of it's own streets tonight. >> well, we heard that the mayor has requested the state highway patrol and that they are on their way. so, federal resources being added to that would certainly fit. it's going to be interesting to see what happens in terms of affecting the police response. because this was much like the protest last night. a situation that appeared to be somewhat calm, and then escalated very rapidly.
and unfortunately tonight escalated much more violently than it had been yesterday. >> eli, thank you. we'll let you go. report as newspapers don't wait for any reporter anymore or certainly nighttime or morning deadlines. they are updating living, breathing organisms these days on the web. thank you very much. mark claxton is with us. a man who wore a gun on his hip for a good long time. the 2a precinct in harlem -- is a retired nypd detective after two decades of service. someone who we have called on way too much if you ask me because of situations like this. mark, you've been watching the same live pictures and listening to the same conversation we have. what do you make of the situation as it stands right now in charlotte? >> well, nothing shocking, nothing surprising really.
just the pure visceral expression of frustration in large part with the system that many people feel has been biassed and has not provided justice to those victims of police violence. and i think that would go a long way is some additional transparency. i know dr. goff spoke about the importance of full disclosure, if you will, and i think it's important for everyone to realize that oftentimes when you have government officials speak of jeopardizing the integrity of investigation, it really doesn't apply to much of the venn yaw evidence that comes out nowadays. you either have that video evidence captured already and logged in and preparing it for whatever eventual prosecution you may have, or you don't. but if you have it, and if there's an opportunity to release additional information, then i think you should seize
that opportunity because that would go a long way in kind of disapating a lot of the general frustration that people have. but if you don't do that, and if you allow, for example, that which was done earlier today. if you allow the police chief, let's say, to get before an audience and say these are the facts and then recite to you a pure police version. then you have people becoming more and more frustrated when they realize that there is additional information out there and that what he recited to them may not necessarily be the facts, but his fact pattern in order to shape the narrative of moving forward. >> mark, we've actually got a lawyer in the house. so some of these questions appropriately go to her, janae nelson with the naacp, people that don't know that organization off the top of their heads, it is the legal dna
of thurgood marshall in present-day america and always will be. welcome, first of all. >> thank you. >> my question for you, counselor, is what are do we do about this? if we've got body cam. if we've got dash cam video, do you just release what's excouple toir to one side, what do you do if it's going to affect a case that someone's now going to have to start to build? what do you do about releasing evidence? we know they have and we're used to seeing when we want it, where we want it. >> sure. >> well, i think what we need is transparency. and the truth and showing the reality of a circumstance or situation should never be something that's compromised or seen as tainting a process. in this particular instance, the footage -- there's so much question around it and as we know, the law vary from different jurisdiction to jurisdiction as to whether it can be automatically released.
whether it's required to have a court order not to release it. and we know that ultimately that's the direction in which the entire state is going to start to preserve the secrecy of these types of videos. and it doesn't serve any purpose. the video speaks for itself. it should not be tampered with, altered, it should be released and disclosed in a responsible way along with the types of warnings and open communication to ensure that the community receives this information and this imagery and is able to react to it in a way that is safe and sound. and fully expressive in consistent with their first amendment rights. >> so you were on with lawrence o'donnell when we heard the mayor saying that she's going to view it tomorrow evening. she's yet to strew, apparently has yet to ask for it. does she have power enough to say, share this with the public before this law goes into effect in north carolina? >> i don't know that she herself has the power to do this. she can certainly advocate for
it being released. she can even offer her insights about what she gleaned from see egg the video -- >> hopefully she'll do that. >> i hope she will. i think the most responsible thing to do is to allow the public to see this video itself and to make the determination as to what happened by looking at the clear footage. that's the beauty of being in this age of technology to be able to record actions and determine the truth from looking at real life video. >> i need to interrupt our conversation to go back down to the streets of charlotte. gabe gutierrez, you're seeing son-in-law activity there. >> reporter: yeah. >> hey gabe, can you hear me? >> reporter: yes. hey brian. sorry. we're having a tough time hearing you. we did just see activity. we're here at the corner of trade and caldwell, just near the time warner arena, yeah, just a few seconds ago, some people came here on motorcycles.
they threw some sort of smoke bomb, fireworks. there had been a crowd here across the street. it dispersed as you can see. there's a heavy security presence, police in riot gear trying to keep the peace. you know, things had been flairing up over the last couple hours or so and it deescalates. right now again it is a pretty much a peaceful situation here right on the fringe of downtown. the officers though still in a very defensive posture making sure serving under control. yeah, across the street, there are just some observers at this pint. really people just kind of taking in the situation. i see a couple of press photographers as well. thankfully at least at this intersection, it does seem to be feared to be calm. declaring a state of emergency. really, you know asking the national guard to be on alert. deploying extra highway patrol here. this has been quite a night and officials hope that by having this heavy security presence
they can keep the violence to a minimum. really not seeing a repeat of earlier in the night, brian. >> and gabe, we just realized we can see your location from the overhead shot in the helicopter while you were speaking. what you can't see and we can is this police line with protesters calmly standing hands behind their backs in a kind of silent faceoff with police officers. this is right across from the lobby of the omni which we've been watching all night long. and if you're a police commander, this gives you a very important question. how do you resolve this? do you advance further? do you announce your intentions? having already said that everyone still on the streets subject to arrest? >> reporter: yeah, brian, we had been next to the omni hotel just a few minutes ago. we decided to move just a little bit because we did hear that
there was some activity here in this direction again here at the corner at caldwell and trade right by the time warner cable arena. but yes, here we did see see this heavy police presence. every few blocks, you see just a lot of charlotte police officers in all of this riot gear. yeah, if you look at the overhead pictures, we have seen from time to time, these protesters very peaceful, but really wanting to get their message heard and so they go up to these police and they lock arms and they, you know, try to be in this silent protest as you will. the protest started peacefully this afternoon. and we started -- we saw all these marchers, hundreds if not thousands of people as part of the group we were with coming into downtown charlotte in the epicenter, this high end area of the shops and restaurants and they went into that area. they were chanting and marching in unison. and some of them had stopped
traffic, but at that point it was peaceful, again, as we said earlier wasn't until we got to the omni hotel that things evolved into chaos. at our location at this intersection. you can see the police officers talking amongst themselves. there's a couple of them walking this way. you know, perhaps moving to a new position. overall though things seem to be winding down at least at this intersection and the hope is that if i believes hope that it stays that way across much of the city, but, as you took us -- came to us live. you saw there had been some activity here. there were people on motorcycles really trying to start some trouble perhaps or at least cause a scene. some fireworks went off. and there were smoke bombs or flash bang grenades and luckily it wasn't anything more than that. just disperse the crowd and people went along their way. so that's the scene here right now, brian, that the intersection, here at the time warner cable arena.
back to you. >> gabe, thanks. if you see anything further, flag us. there was a good sign there i think that the police officer put his shield down on the ground while our live pictures were trained on him. it looks like a nice time to deescalate. we're now after 11:30 on the east coast. it's a hot night in charlotte. it's been a long, tough day in charlotte. this kind of standoff continues, very different than the kind of thing we saw earlier this in this evening. this is designed to be a peaceful kind of stare down. what we don't know is how police plan to wrap this up and get control of the streets. nina turner, former state senator in ohio is with us as she was for a lot of the campaign and primary season. former ohio state senator and minority whip in that state. co-chair of the task force on community and police relations after the tamir rice death in
cleveland. nina turner's son is always a police officer, which may be germane to this conversation. nina, you've been watching the coverage of this, yet another american city enveloped in violence and with the whiff of tear gas in the air tonight. we thought we had a fatality, thankfully, it appears it is not, but certainly a lot of folks in the hospital this evening. what do you make what have you've seen? >> yeah, brooirn, this is gut wrenching. here we go again and not in a good way. i'm really feeling james baldwin right now, who is the voice as you know in terms of how african americans were feeling at that time. and it is as if he is speaking right now. there's a kwoek in particular where he said to be a negro in this skrnt to almost always consistently, and i'm paraphrasing him, toeb be in a rage. and that is what we are seeing in charlotte tonight.
but that is no different how african american people have been feeling across this country for quite some time. and yes, i do understand this from both lenses. i understand this from the lens of being the mother of a black son who had been racially profiled, who even now can be racially profiled until it is discovered that he is a law enforcement officer himself. but also bear the burden of being the mother of a child who does have a badge and a gun who reminds me constantly that he does not wear a bullet proof vest to make a fashion statement. the struggle is real in this country, and it is unfortunate that it takes incident after incident from tamir rice to john crawford, to sandra bland, you know, you name it, it is happening to what happened to tarrence. it's unfortunate that all of these things have to happen before america will sit up and pay attention. we only pay attention for a little while. and then the thrill is gone. these are black bodies and black
lives. and you have people playing politics with this. the african american community has been crying out far long time and thank god for technology that now the camera begins to tell the story. we do need transparency. we need accountability. and i really do applaud, you know, govern case nick our state. we've had some police shootings in our state, but thank goodness none of those have deteriorated into violence. and i think the task force was one reason why we traveled the entire state of ohio to give voice, community people voice to have them talk about how they feel about law enforcement, the good, the bad, and the ugly. and we need police officers, our good police officers to speak up and to speak out. question not continue to have tragedies like this. the protesters are in danger, police officers are in danger, first responders are in danl. the disruption of communities before somebody, all of us, have a responsibility here, brian. my heart is really, really heavy. it's been heavy for quite some time and i don't know how much
more of this chemical weapon take. >> nina, thank you, dr. goff has been listening to you nodding his head and jane acres has been nodding her head. dr. goff, we talked about the late, great james baldwin in this studio last night. and i'm reminded. he talked the fire next time. we're always braefly surprised that there's a next time, a next time, and a next time to nina's point that the surprise doesn't last long enough. that there's a sameness if you can believe it to these individual lives being lost. individual tragedies. all of them with a common thread, how to stop that. >> how to stop us getting used to it, right. >> and unfortunately and i was sweet tweeting about this the other day. i have gotten used to some some of the folks i follow, janea, you see a hashtag and a name, you know another black life a is off of this earth and another black family is profoundly affected.
one of the ways you manage it is i'm glad to see that there is the option of the national guard to help bring peace and keep peace. but, if there's a state of emergency, it happened well before tonight in charlotte. there's a state of emergency in the united states, it happened well before any incident of particular, any particular of violence. so i think we need to have a much more mature conversation about what happens when there's not someone in a hashtag that day. and part of what's so difficult is we don't have many of those days anymore. so when we have the space to not be monitoring the tragedy and not be thinking about be all right, is this about to erupt into more violence when we have that space? that's when it's to keep the spotlight on what's been going on in the communities that makes nights like tonight possible and for so many feel so necessary. >> and i heard it proffered as recently as tonight that things like hashtags, meant to memorialize and draw attention
have fwhk some cases just that. hashtags we'll continue this conversation, tammie lightner is down at street level and has developments to report to us. tammie. >> reporter: yeah, brian, just in the last 15 minutes, we've got a line of protesters that have squared off with riot police here. and they're standing a foot and a half away from them. their hands are behind their back. they're not saying anything or doing anything. but taking a state and that's what actually one of these protesters were saying to the crowd. he was saying stand up for what you believe in. don't back down. in the last two minutes, we've seen extra riot police staged behind this line of police, and it looks like they may at some point trying to be pushing this crowd of protesters back. they've already dispersed a crowd back on the other side where as gabe was standing, you see that, but i'm guessing that'll be the next step, brian,
that they'll start trying to move these protesters back from where they are and disperse them. >> brian. >> tammie lightner, thanks. we as i mention have janae nelson from the naacp legal defense fund. the reaction in tulsa to mr. crutcher's death has been very different. there is no predicting or anticipating how an individual community will react, i guess. >> that's right, i mean different communities mourn in different ways. that community had the benefit of seeing the video and i think that should be noted that there was some degree of reckoning and understanding of what happened and we're not left to guess and, you know, left to conjecture. and i think that really should be underscored that perhaps this community is able to deal with this in a better way because they have more information. but, honestly, i think the time that if we ever get to the point
where people are not protesting, where we don't get this reaction, that's when we need to worry, not a violent reaction, but when we get to the point where folks are so numb they're not turning out in the street, when you hear about a father who potentially was simply reading a book in a car waiting for his son gets shot down by the police. if people are staying home after aerohearing that news, we should all be worried. we should be looking for now is to have those individuals join by every other american who feels that our policing is in crisis and needs a change. people are still outraged. handled in a way that is lawful. >> so council for the charlotte pd, if he or she were here, they'd say to you, look, i have to defend it and please don't
get the community by releasing this video, whether it shows he was armed with a book or a gun. >> i say that the -- we've dealt with this on so many levels and cases where information is out there in the public and you're still able to panel an impartial jury that can give a fair hearing to whatever defendant is out there on the stand. i don't think that's an excuse for not bringing the truth to the public. we deserve to know what happened. if there's nothing to hide, there should be no reason not to disclose this information. >> yes, doc. >> so not to be extra nerdy in a space where we're dealing with -- >> coming up on midnight. >> fair enough. i'm not a professional nerd, i'm a nerd in my spare time. there's an important distinction here. council for the police department wouldn't make that argument. that'd be council for the union. okay. because the police department has two important considerations. one, is for the safety of their
officers, and that's an important thing, everybody wants the officers to go home safe at night, but the other is the public safety. and transparency in police behavior is key to ensuring the public safety. so, i am not a lawyer though i teach at a law school. >> uh-huh. >> but if there were any council here from a police department, what i would say is, it's always about a balancing act, but if goal is to make sure that everyone is more safe, you have and the police department council has the ability to move in that direction even if the union lawyer, might disagree. >> retired detective claxton, i'm curious to learn, your friends on the job today, what do they think of body cams, dash cams, i always ask men and women on the job their opinions. what do you think? would you like to wear one to be accountable to one? >> i think majority of the police officers that i've spoken
with, and i've spoken to hundreds over the past several months. i have many friends and family members in law enforcement agencies across the country. but there is always that resistance to body cameras. there's always that resistance to audio recorders, it's within a culture of law enforcement, but i think important, it's important to note that responsible professional police officers recognize and realize that this is -- these are the times we're living in. and this is what's required in order for us to effectively conduct our business as professional police officers and to ensure public safety and to work on bridging that everwidening gap between the police and communities. it is a tool, it is a piece of equipment. and quite often, the video tape, the audio tape is very helpful, not only to a civilian, but to the police officers themselves. you know, as she mentioned earlier, it's important to get
the information out because if you have nothing to hide, then you should make that information available and you should be willing to provide whatever evidence that you have and be that audio tape or video tape. police officers not crazy about it, that's part of the job. that's what you signed up for. and that's your obligation to the larger community. >> mark claxton, thank you very much for that. we're going to go after we go to tammie on the ground in charlotte, who has something else for us, tammie. >> reporter: hey brian. so about 15 minutes ago, as i mentioned, some of the protesters squared off here and one of the first ones to come up with manuel. and manuel, you said you would tell me, what are you doing out here tonight. >> we're out here to send a message that we will no longer allow for people to keep being killed by police officers. we're not going to allow it. and it's not going to be allowed anymore. and there has to be a sense of
accountability on all sides. especially for the police department, especially when there's people being killed and there's no one being held accountable for it. >> i know you've been standing here about two feet away from the riot officers with their hands behind your back. what message are you sending here? >> it's not about violence. it's about standing and letting them know that we will not back down. i will not give an inch. the moment they say that we need to leave this vicinity, i am not taking a step back. >> reporter: are you prepared to get arrested? that may be what happens. >> that'll be what happens. if someone does not stand -- we are given ground, we cannot give ground. we're not here for violence. we're not here to start anything. but we are here to send a message that we will not be pushed back any longer. we are here together and we will stand together. and as one, we will persevere. >> reporter: that may be your attitude that you don't want this to get violent, but there
has been violence tonight. things have gotten out of control. people have been hurt. one person has been killed -- >> i can't speak for anybody else. i can only speak for myself. >> reporter: and there you go, brian, you heard it, one of the people here on the front line who is saying that he is not going to back down tonight. he's willing to go to jail if that's what it takes to send a message. >> tammie lightner, while you've been running around the streets of charlotte, we're happy to report something we said this past hour that the fatality, what was believed to have been the lone fatality, civilian on civilian shooting apparently tonight is not a fatality, though sadly there is an individual on life support in charlotte. janae nelson here with us, we were about to get with the legal defense fund. in microcause m. it's a lot about the current argument over policing. friends of mine who are on the job say, most of the time body
cameras show what we put up with. sometimes when it's terrible, they show something grievance and awful. so it's -- it's a mix. >> yes. first just to want acknowledge what an impassioned plea the protester gave and articulating why people are out there in the first place. and i think we need to hear more voices like his and understanding why people are turning out and the way that they have. you know, police cameras are both a sword and a shield. and they can be used by police to underscore the work they're doing and many of them are doing that work. and they can also be used to reveal the weaknesses in our policing forces throughout the country, and give us an opportunity to figure out how we need to fix them and improve them. no one should be fearful of that degree of transparency.
it reveals there needs to be more training, reveals there are bad apples. that should be something we all to want happen. no one is saying got you, we caught you doing something wrong and you, therefore, should be castigated forever. we're looking for evidence and information and how to hold people accountable. the concern about policing, or police cameras is not only whether they exist, but the rules that surround them. we see right now the argument about whether it can be released and at what point. could there be some tampering with the tape before it is released? is the officer permitted to see the tape before he or she gives his or her account? if it's, if the taped interaction with a civilian, can that be released and used against a person? there are lots of questions
surrounding the scaffolding that should uphold and ensure that these types of, this type of footage is used correctly and appropriately, and that it serves it's best use. and a lot of those questions haven't been answered. but that doesn't mean that these types of reforms should not be pursued. >> just to tell the folks at momentum, the smart person is janae nelson. dr. goff, you're been nodding. and after i more focussed question for you. our lead story two nights ago is about the people like the two lyndon, new jersey, cops, pun of them rolls up hot based on someone seeing someone who matches a piece of artwork, a photo of a suspect, the other one rolls up and engages what we now know to be a dmix terrorist. prior to that in a mall in minnesota, officer named falconer just goes at an armed and dangerous subject, in
complete disregard for his own safety. the very best of policing is what we've seen these past five days or so in america, suddenly, the conversation changes and it changes really violently tonight. >> yeah, it does. and i think that when you put those two things together. you juxtapose them. at the very least, we can't just be talking about the character of officers. right? because we know that officers in terms of the desire to go into the field, they mostly are people that want to do the right thing, for a living. short of putting on spandex and a cape, that's as good as we get to becoming a superhero. that is commendable, that is the best of the american spirit. so, it's not just the character of officers, and i think that it's really important as we have the serious conversation around this, we don't sort of caricature it to make it about a few bad apples here. that has very little bearing on what's actually going on in these communities. these communities are plagued not by rogue officers, not by
rogue policies, but by a historical context that makes all of this terrifyingly predetermined. when you saw the hashtag, when you first got the news wherever you were of any of the last three high profile shootings over the last week. you could have lip synced to most of what was going to happen after the fact. we don't know whether or not the video's going to get released, but we do know there's going to be a conversation about this was an innocent person, good family person on one side. there was going to be this person was a direct danger to safety. and then we were going to have a conversation about a small policy with regards to accountability on the outside of it. what i want us to remember whenever we're having these conversations about communities that seem to have exploded, that ka can not be contained by civil discourse and incremental policy change, is that this is a historical legacy that we're seeing brought to bear in the current moment, and if we don't deal with history, there's somebody who said something about being doomed to repeat it.
so yeah, we see the best of policing. we just, you know, honor the memory of 9/11 not so long ago, where we saw people running into the fire. never forget that people who run into the fire are deserving of every protection when they emerge from it. especially carrying somebody else. it's not about the character of individual officers. and when we've reduced the conversation to that, it's not just a caricature. it's a disservice to those better kept safe and those doing that. we have to remember that history is now. >> and we call first responders first responders for a reason. we're approaching midnight on the east coast. which is which, if you grew up in the home of a police officer, mom or dad, you probably better knew as the start of a midnight tour. the start of the 12:00 to 8:00, and in a police officer's family, as nina turner knows, as millions of americans know, that can be the most dangerous hour and you're not relieved until 8:00 a.m. rolls around. gabe gutierrez is on the streets
of charlotte, north carolina, as we keep saying the nation's 17th largest city where they've seen great violence tonight. gabe, what do you have? >> reporter: hey there, brian. we're at the intersection where we were at before, caldwell and trey just near the time warner cable arena. as you can see behind me a group of protesters facing off with these police officers here. a few minutes ago, we got across the street. there were some rocks being thrown. right now they seem to be yelling at the officers and thankfully though no physical clashes. and this area where we're at. heavy police presence here. the hope is that this doesn't keep -- that this stays nonviolent, be as you can see, there are people venting their
anger here. there is a lot of anger over the shooting of mr. scott and we don't expect that for anger and frustration to subside any time soon. >> we should probably point that, you know, like most things in life, it takes all kinds, and sometimes protests like this attract all kinds. local folks like the impassioned young man want to be out there and deliver a message. and deliver a message peacefully. the guy next to him on the front lines across from the police officers looked like darth vader with a blacked out mask and hat. while you were talking, a guy on a hover board is moving around into and out of police lines. it all makes for a very jumpy situation coming up on midnight after a violent night. doesn't it? >> yeah, it certainly does, brian. as we look at this crowd. there are certain couple folks
here with bandannas across their faces hiding their faces. hiding their identifies, but as you said, we have spoken throughout the night and earlier tonight before this deinvolved into chaos, there were people speaking with us and even when this deinvolved into violence, people saying that they were very upset to see the violence. especially've night. they were hoping that tonight would be a night where they could voice and unfortunately as we see here, this crowd tried to apparently attack this car unfortunately. and police are now trying to get this situation under control. as you can see, this can escalate quickly. we're going to move out of the way here, and yeah, we're just going to move out of the way here that this doesn't escalate further. we are in the road. and we do not want to to and some of the cameras and may want
to agitate a little more. we're going to walk over here, brian. as you were db this area was protesting peacefully and they wanted their message heard today. their account differed from what police had said earlier in the day. they still want those and the body cam video and dash cam video to be released. police officers because of the ongoing gaegs. again, this is a community that is in some points and were angry and frustrated and we're seeing it play out right around midnight here tonight. >> even though it's midnight family show, we apologize one reason not to get right up on these situations is language. though the pictures like this one set for the upper right hand corner like the location where
gabe is. if you can pan over to the intersection of police and protesters. you see how a granular level dispute can start. you never know how many of those police officers behind those shields are scared to death. it's a tough job. you can hear the echo's of the voices of the parents. tonight we have seen what can happen to both. what can happen when they come together. protesters fueled by terrific anger in the metropolitan area over a 43-year-old man keith lamont scott. we are coming up on the top of the hour. we just want to update you as we say farewell to this hour. you see the omni hotel in the background of a lot of these live pictures tonight. that was a prison transport van that the protesters set upon.
we've seen fireworks tossed up in the air. we have seen tear gas and smoke canisters tossed the other way from police towards protesters. a violent night in the 17th largest city in america. we are charlotte, north carolina. a police involved shooting. a disagreement between members of the deceased family that claim he was armed only with a book and was an innocent man shot by police and police accounts that say he was armed with a gun. we will have further demonstrative proof on that front before long. we will not see any police video released at least not tonight. the mayor of that city perhaps along with family members is going to view the