tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC September 23, 2016 12:00am-1:01am PDT
i've also been privileged to spend a lot of time with mothers who have lost children and young people who feel that as far as their country is concerned, their lives seem disposable. we've got to do better. >> we are supposed to be the world's leader. how can we lead when we can't even control our own cities? look at the example that we had in new york of mayor rudy giuliani. the policies he put in place ultimately broke down crime by 76% and murder in new york by 84%. >> one policy that donald trump is pointing to is the controversial stop and frisk policy that trump himself has long been in favor of, and so has rudy giuliani, but it was a major source of tension between the police and african-american residents in new york city. trump yesterday proposed reviving the polarizing practice. he tried clarifying intentions
this morning in an interview with fox news. >> rudy giuliani did a great job as mayor. they really straightened things out with stop and frisk. but stop and frisk worked. we had tremendous shootings, numbers of shootings. now, chicago is out of control. i was really referring to chicago as stop and frisk. >> the attorney general loretta lynch reacted as well today. >> the tragic events in charlotte and in tulsa, oklahoma earlier this week once again have underscored the decisions that persist between law enforcement officers and the communities that we serve, particularly communities of color. too many times we've allowed ourselves to be pulled down the easy path of blame and accusation rather than the harder path of empathy and understanding. >> now, the issue of bias is now being acknowledged by a majority of americans, white and black. an nbc news survey monkey we conducted in july said 77% of
all voters said there is a serious problem with racial discrimination against blacks in this country. that is where the consensus ends. these voters were split whether the use of deadly force by police was affected by race. president obama launch aid task force on 21st century policing in 2014. but how far can progress go when there are fundamental disagreements on where the problems exist? the distrust isn't going to go away with a magic wand. the images of clashes with police become more vivid and more frequent, and they're more than ever thanks to technology. these images of cops and these images of african-americans holding up their hands and not being threatening, it is becoming engrained. think of the fire hoses and dogs on protesters that were used in the '60s. the images are very vivid and it's clearly something the
entire country believes is unacceptable. but why hasn't all this passion turned into a series of real solutions? joining me now with some analysis, dmitri roberts. he's a former chicago police officer and georgetown prefer michael eric dyson as well. mr. roberts, let me start with you. it seems as if on one hand there is plenty of attention to this problem. but the more attention that has been brought to it -- this is in a case where the more attention has focused everybody on finding the right solution. we seem to be struggling to find any solution. >> well, it's my opinion that the reason we struggle to find solutions is because folks feel like they need to be on one side of this issue or the other. just because someone add -- advocates for black lives matter doesn't mean they're not behind police. those who are for people of
color, we can build a bridge and we have something so stand behind as sustainable solutions. >> michael, it does feel as if -- think about the last two years. you and i have had this conversation multiple times, and we've seen these ebbs and flows, and there's a lot of concentration on, we've got to solve this problem, and then we go a couple months without an incident, and bang, it comes back, and there just seems to be no momentum here. >> look, i respect my articulate colleague there on a very powerful point, but i'm sorry. we are beyond the point of drawing an equivalence between police people who show up armed with the force and authority of the state and a gun and a badge, and citizens who are unarmed and don't have that authority.
this is not a matter of equivalency. this is a greater responsibility attached to those who are sworn to uphold the law, to serve and protect. somehow what we have done is failed to impress upon them that the mere presence of an african-american person does not automatically constitute a threat. we are dealing with implicit bias. even if a black cop shoots a black person, that implicit bias is operating in most of our unconsciences. the point is we have to get to a point where we're able to tell the truth. most americans understand that racial discrimination against african-american people is real. what we have to do on the other hand is figure out a way to train these police not to react so violently and viciously. look, you can be a white guy with a cleaver, the police will arrest you. you can be a terrorist in a shootout, the police will preserve your life. you can be a guy who kills nine people in a church and they will retrieve you without incident. why isn't that african-american people unarmed for the most part
have a real trouble with the police of being able to be securely treated and treated, i think, with a deep and profound respect. until we address that, we're going to have this again and again. >> mr. roberts, that's what i hear the most from african-american activists on this is that last part of what michael eric dyson just said. why is it -- we just had an example now. he brought up the terrorist suspect currently in new jersey right now. he's alive. and that's what eats at this more than anything. >> it's a lack of cultural competency in the communities for which police officers are going to serve. and to michael's point, i was a former chicago police officer who worked in some of the toughest neighborhoods in our country. but before that, i was a black man who also got beat up by white cops. i get both sides of these issues. my point has always been, as it continues to be, we have to address the cultural differences. there is a law enforcement problem with culture in this
country. until we address that law enforcement culture issue and merge that with cultural competency around the communities for which those officers are going to work in, we're going to continue to see these situations escalate to violence and further, more killing of black and brown members of communities. cultural competency is the way to get these things resolved and resolved in a very quick manner. >> michael, it does seem as if there is plenty of jurisdictions that have put in some reforms where you've seen positive results. the tragedy in dallas that took place a couple months ago, it was an extra tragedy for a lot of people down there because you had a police chief that instituted some newer reforms that were making real progress. >> there is no question about that. look, i spoke to that police department about six to eight months before they endured that horrible tragedy that they experienced. let me tell you something, chuck, that's not often spoken about as dmitri just indicated.
when i spoke to many of those african-american sergeants, lieutenants and captains, do you know what they told me? out of uniform, we are just as afraid of white cops as you are, number one. number two, they are the immediate and first recipients of racial discrimination. we forget that there are many bigoted people on police forces that mistreat fellow officers before they go into the larger world and create mayhem for other people. so we're not being honest about the culture of complicity with the police. not simply in its hair trigger reaction to black and brown people but to the very violent racism that operates even within police forces themselves. so you're right, there are many things that can be done and instituted, but unless we're willing to say them straightforwardly and be open and honest, unless the department of justice is willing to say that and the president, too, we won't make much progress. >> mr. roberts, why hasn't there been accepted best practices adopted by not just big police forces -- i feel as though the
big city police forces, for the most part, they were the first ones that made it where the police force made it look like the community they were policing. but we also seem to have an issue with a lot of police forces where maybe perhaps the training is less rigorous. how do we make this where you up the training across the board? >> well, it has to be holistic approach to these issues. diversity, inclusion and emersion. training workshops. where you bring training members into training at officers with cultural differences. when you have a community member, young adult millennial, that goes to the police academy and stands before them and tells their story and then tells their expectations of their police officers who come to serve their communities, give them that training, give them that cultural awareness sensitivity, you're going to see police officers who join the police department to make a difference, you're going to see them engaging those communities much
differently. again, i'm not saying biases aren't at play here. but the solution at getting past those biases is building the competencies necessary both in our police agencies as well as our communities. >> but in charlotte itself they have a black police captain. they have the black policeman who shot this young man and the young man who was shot is black. some will argue, there is enough competency there, but it victimizes not only predominant members of the dominant culture, but also those who are latino or african-american themselves. it leads us to believe that a black person is more apt to commit a crime than anybody else. >> culture doesn't have a color. regardless of what color those officers are, if they're standing behind antiquated policies that doesn't address the community and doesn't address the issues between the law enforcement agencies and the communities, we're going to
continue to see these issues regardless of what color the officers are, because at the end of the day, those officers all wear the same color unified. and that's the color blue. >> all right, guys -- >> the people who were affected, white communities in a culture are not being targeted in the same way that african-american and latino ones are. but i know we'll take that conversation up. >> i was going to say i'm going to let you guys pause this conversation. i will pick it up later in the show. thank you both for coming on and sharing your views. now, matt bye, and nbc senior political reporter perry bacon. perry, you and i had that quick conversation before the show started that it feels as if all the politics have run out of things to say. all the people that we turn to to come up with some sort of unifying solution, they've all kind of run out of things to say. >> this is a real hard issue. we were two years into
addressing, after ferguson, two years into addressing a problem that had taken decades to develop. disregard of blacks and the police, there's videos now, awareness is higher than ever. >> that is a form of progress here on this issue. there is white awareness now of this issue. there used to not be white awareness. >> there is a lot more white awareness, particularly in young people. i think there have been some changes. tulsa, the officer was already indicted for manslaughter. in north carolina, they are already there. i do think things are happening faster. >> april, i can't imagine it's going to be all of a sudden people say, okay. we know there might be some more bad apples, but for the most part, we're finding a solution. i can't imagine we're going to get to that point in the next couple years. it just doesn't feel that way. >> you know, it's an evolution for everything. you hit the nail squarely when
you said white people are now saying it. before, people thought it was myth and conjecture that african-americans were talking about it, but now that component, that video piece, those smartphones, the battery life of these phones to be able to film these things, and you see the truth. what happened in tulsa was real. to hear someone say, yeah, he's a bad dude, you know, that within itself, you can have all the video that you want, but there's a heart issue there. it's about legislation. you can legislate, you can have all the pattern and practice, results and findings and change, but if the heart is not lined up, there is something wrong. there is legislation and then there's the heart. >> you know, matt, you were telling me about how you've done ride-alongs. >> i covered law enforcement for a while. >> it sort of struck me as i was processing what you were telling me, you know, there are some police officers if all you're doing is working in the highest crime areas, you're always going to feel as if you're under siege
all the time. so you almost wonder, it's not just the training, but do the cops themselves need to not -- almost need to rotate? i don't know, is there a rotation? because you do feel there is a hardening here, a belief of what you're dealing with. >> i think the first thing you have to acknowledge, maybe not the first thing, but it's not just simply a bias issue. you have black officers shooting black perpetrators. you have black victims and black perpetrators. i think one of the things you have to consider is this comes from a place of fear and bad training and incompetence. politicians can't fix that, right? law enforcement has to fix that through training. >> i have to respectfully disagree. let's go back to a standard -- the washington standard, the "washington post." they have data from last year. and they compilated all the people who were killed in police custody or police-involved
deaths last year. the vast majority of those who died were african-american, and they were not at the hands of black police officers. i mean, what do you say to what happened at tulsa with the gentleman in the helicopter? i don't even want to call him a gentleman. the officer in the helicopter had to say? that was a white man saying this about an african-american. >> april, i'm sorry, it is not denying there is a racial component here to say there is also complexity involved. >> oh, there's complexity. and complexion. >> i appreciate what you said about the role of technology. this is new. anyone who covers crime knows this just went on and it disproportionately affected african-americans. the twist is now people are held accountable. also i think technology is part of what brings it to justice,
welcome back. there are a slew of new polls from the battleground today. quinnipiac has trump leading by seven points. outside of their margin of error on that one, georgia is one of the states clinton was hoping she could flip and make a little more competitive. right now, though, trump has a durable lead. iowa. trump on top also 7 points, plus 7 in another fox news poll as well. monmouth poll last week had trump up eight points, maybe the most likely obama state for trump to take this time around. iowa has been a real problem for clinton. different story in colorado. clinton with a narrow 44 lead. trump was up four points in this quinnipiac poll last month.
six points for quinnipiac and a roanoke poll has clinton up 7. she has led or virtually tied in every poll. the "new york times." trump and clinton tied at 41. north carolina is a must-win for trump at this point. no path for him without north carolina. and florida, trump up a point. average of regional polls has clinton and trump in an absolute dead heat. up next, a look into the trump foundation, and donald trump's history of spending other people's money. back after this.
right now paid for by mostly other people's money, that trump used it to pay for tax settlements. some call that blatant, example of self-dealing. the trump campaign is responding, although they seem a bit stumped as to how to respond. first came a campaign statement saying, the "washington post" story was wrong and peppered with inaccuracies, but they did not correct a single act in the story. then we heard from mike pence on the same story. >> there are a number of fact wag errors in that story. >> do you know what the factual errors are that the campaign is alleging in that story? >> i think the foundation will be able to lay those out. >> well, the foundation has not yet laid those out, but we have heard from trump on this. >> can you explain to people why you may have used some charitable donations for
personal uses? >> the foundation is there and it gives money to vets and it's really been doing a good job. i think we put that to sleep just by putting out the last report. >> we're not sure what report trump is referring to. we did ask the campaign, have not heard back on this one. the story fits what appears to be a pattern for trump. it's not just his charity. trump's campaign which solicits funds from a variety of donors has made millions for trump, inc. this appears to be how trump does business whether it's done in tax breaks and grants. and it's also a dangerous mix of politics and profits when you're in the midst of running for president and it raises only more questions with fewer answers. i'm joined now by pulitzer prize-winning author danny tantaglio. he's the author of "never enough, pursuit of success."
i want to start with the foundation story. because while it was a new allegation against him that he used foundation money to pay trump a legal settlement which has -- is potentially totally illegal unless he comes up with a way to fund his foundation, it somehow fits a pattern of his where he's shrewd about using as little or no money as possible. >> it is, and i think the bottom line for trump has been his bottom line, so profit is the measure of what is right or wrong. this guy doesn't have a moral measure for his activity, and he doesn't really think much about the ethics of something. if he can declare bankruptcy four times and leave his creditors in the lurch, if he can walk away from small businesspeople in atlantic city
and not pay them what they're due, he'll do it because the benefit accrues to him. one of the funny elements of this charity case is that he built this giant flagpole in palm beach where it was about a hundred feet too high and against the city code, and he had to pay a fine for doing this. i actually think this is a politically motivated thought that he had. it was, well, let me be the guy that puts up the american flag and then gets in trouble and then fights the battled government about the american flag, and then when i have to pay a fine, i'll have my charity pay for me. this is just ridiculous. he gets away with it with the voters who support him because they like the fact that he's so clever. >> well, i was just going to say, and he brags about it. i mean, this was a quote in fortune magazine in 2000. he said, it's very possible i could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it.
you know, it's sort of the a bragadocious thing to say, and i don't think he's making money on this campaign but he's definitely making sure he's not spending much money. >> right. he had a pseudo campaign in 2007, and i think that was one of the instances where someone did make money by pretending to run for president because he generated all sorts of free publicity by jetting up to new hampshire and giving a speech. he could say, look, i'm running for president, come cover me. by the way, i've got this new book coming out. before you know it, he's got a giant best-seller and he never ran for president in the end after all. >> he's not alone on that front. there are plenty of people who have run for president, used their loss to become a vacuum of speaking fees, getting on tv shows, things like that. i go to this because this other part that sort of makes me
curious about using other people's money is all the tax breaks. how important has tax breaks been to building his financial empire? >> oh, he's had almost a billion dollars in special tax breaks so it's not unusual for real estate developers in big cities to take advantage of special tax breaks to get their projects built. but he's been the champion of this, and he learned it from his dad, and he's been very successful at it. so you and i have financed donald trump's success. >> all right. michael dantonio who literally wrote the book on trump. always a pleasure. thanks so much. >> thanks, chuck. hillary clinton expands her vote on trump with one latino group. how latino voters are expanding their vote. can she expand in other parts of her coalition? stay tuned.
. and among latino voters under the age of 40, just 38% call themselves very interested in this election, so there is a turn out scare here if you're hillary clinton, the numbers look good on top, but will there be a raw vote there. let me bring in any guest to help break down this poll. no surprise probably at the numbers here. anything jump out at you, alfonzo, as part of the overall but in terms of what you thought? >> in terms of donald trump, the numbers are terrible for him. after that speech in phoenix we
think he doesn't care about the latino vote. the question, is there enough enthusiasm in the latino community, latino voters in favor of hillary clinton, and i think the numbers actually lead us to question if there's enthusiasm. i mean, if you look at -- >> i think part of the challenge is twofold, you're seeing a generation of older latinos who remember days of prosperity under hillary clinton and you have generation that doesn't have that experience and they were sold on bernie sanders, the hillary clinton campaign use to do is talk about the policy. >> this is the one voting group in anything we've found in the obama coalition where she's doing better than him, right and every other case he does better than her, his 2012 numbers are better here. she, right now, is winning latone knol latino points. now, how much of this is really donald trump? >> i think a lot of it has to do
with donald trump, but part of it is the older generation, i will say either wasn't planning on voting. they remember that history of prosperity. they were able to send their kids to college, millennials are having that challenge and hillary's challenge is to say, look, that platform that bernie sanders said -- that he was going to do if he was in office, he would f. you look at the fact that harry johnson are polling numbers, i will venture to guest they're polling numbers from her not from donald trump. >> basically, they were getting the same percentage of latinos as they do among the overall population tlrks's no difference that there's the same chunk of voters clearly. >> i don't think the latino vote exist in a vacuum, obviously, they care about the same issues that the general voter community. i think three numbers are very interesting. when you do have the four candidates, hillary clinton goes out to 65%, there's about 11%
are willing to vote for gary johnson and jill stein. the other number is 57% of latino voters have a positive perspective of hillary clinton. it's not a super majority. and then, finally, when you look at latinos who think that they're very interested in the election, only 49% of latinos are interested and of the latino millennials only 38%. >> that has a lot to do this is a recent poll that came out, only 61% of registered latino voters had been contacted by political party. >> that's what i wanted to ask you before, you're jumping in on the topic i want to do. there seems to be criticism clinton campaign has not done the out reach that is turn necessary antitrump vote into a real clinton vote. >> we're living a potential pete wilson moment, which, basically, solidified california back in 9
'93 antilatino, antiimmigrant. so better democrats. they can do the same thing, i think what they've done, most political campaigns they only need that 51 plus 1% in order to win, you're using the opportunity to solidify the progressive movement, they're not doing that. >> how do you, you're going to be part of this rebuilding the party, i assume after this, how do you prevent this from becoming what she said, a pete wilson moment? >> well, i think you have to understand the latino vote is not a mon lific vote. remember, at pete wilson, we had george bush who won in 2004. about 44% --
>> and the difference is that -- we're not -- we're no longer talking about policy, what we're talking about kids coming home and basically saying, my classmates are telling me that i'm going to get deported. it is a completely different calculus when you're knocking on someone's door and not going to make -- >> immigration is not the top, it's important, but it's not the top -- >> it's not but -- >> but it's the polling that shows poll after poll the majority of latinos don't identify is democrats. there are many issues which they don't agree with the democrats. i think this, look, donald trump is having an impact and he's having it right now in this election. if republicans -- >> he's not having a conversation on policy issues. the reasons that latinos are not open and welcoming to donald trump is basically he's making their communities less safe. as a parent, all of a sudden, if you could be third, fourth generation being, wait a second -- >> if you have a republican
party and candidate four years from now that shows up in the community and is constructive on immigration issue they'll be competitive. >> let me -- last quick question to you, alfonzo, is this a four year repair job, eight year, ten years, what kind of damage do you think trump has done? >> it's momentary and right now in this election. four years from now, we'll have a good candidate who is constructive on immigration we can be competitive and get the 40% or more. >> you know where i read that, the autopsy report. >> there you go. thank you both. up next, will protests ramp up on the football field starting tonight and perhaps sunday as protests continue on the streets of charlotte following another police-involved
shooting. stay tuned.
the country right now are the police shootings of african-american men in tulsa, oklahoma and charlotte, north carolina. the subsequent violent demonstration and nfl football, put all of it together and you might have a combustible mix, colin kaepernick has been at the forefront of protesting police treatment of people of color by refusing to stand during the national anthem. they ban in the preseason and other nfl players began to follow suit. then this week we saw every member of the wnba indiana fever take a knee during the national anthem. then soccer player megan did a same at game in columbus. now with the events in tulsa and charlotte, don't believe if the protest grows this week in the nfl, perhaps starting tonight with the game new england patriots and sunday 14 games are scheduled and there's no telling how big the protest may be. if the
demonstrations are big
what's been interesting is what normally would be a frozen presidential race right now because we'll be in the middle of debate prep and you get some evidence that they are, this issue is over shadowing the debate prep, what's going on in charlotte and in tulsa right now. it's filling the vacuum of presidential race and making it all in one. >> and you had, i figure because what happened on saturday and sunday the discussion will be about terrorism, we've moved to the other discussion already, one i will say where the candidates are very different views, trump is kind of making
it up h. he's first stop in chicago he's trying to figure out where. he has a general point, the tulsa comments were unusual for trump. they were sort -- he's moving at it. >> it is interesting, april, he seems to be in almost conflict with himself on one hand he's getting strategy that says, i'm sure he's getting advice that says you've got to soften your rhetoric. on the other hand, tough on crime has been a focal point of his candidacy. >> going back to something, he's doing debate prep from what i understand, when it comes to this issue, we heard the donald trump the primary candidate donald trump talk about supporting police and if anyone went after police, they would be -- there will be large punishment, stiff punishments against them. it's like an either or scenario when he was talking -- when he was the primary donald trump. now, it's totally different. you know, to hear his rhetoric
talking about what happened in tulsa and talking about how he did everything right, you know, the guy in tulsa, he complied. he complied. and for donald trump to say that, normally he's this guy who is about police, and not only that, just a few weeks in ago in baltimore he stood in front of the national guard association conviction, he said you have a friend in me. when you think of the national guard with this kind of situation they're the ones that come in, there's been a direct change in his conversations over this issue in just the last couple of days. >> yet, matt, if you remember that conviction speech, it was law and order speech, you know -- >> grim march to the barricks. >> and he was trying to use -- he was trying to sort of make sure that people saw the images of batten ruj, at the time it was baton rouge and dallas, those are the images he wanted engrained when you were listening. it does seem if you can tell
he's struggling with this. >> theme of the night, swamp hole, look, i think it's a real missed opportunity for him, actually. it's not for him african-american, you're not going to win, you can talk about it all he wants, that's not going to happen. but he does really need to change his numbers with college educated white voters, and he's not carrying -- can't win without that. part of that is moderating the image. part of it is presenting a different kind of donald trump. and i think he actually, that's been his instinct lately and i think he would accept that he's in the grip and thrawl, the most invested of those policies. >> it feels as if, attaching yourself to rudy guiliani in 2004 on an issue like this would have been politically scene as
smart. i don't know if it is right now. i feel like rudy himself has been polarizing. >> i wouldn't go around, trump votesers aren't necessarily for that. you can tell -- >> i know a loot of second amendment voters stop and frisk, what do you mean? >> i do want to add, though, the debates are interesting what you preview on sunday is more interesting. you've seen a lot of black football players and black basketball players, here we see a few more white players get involved in this. the video is indisputablindispu. this is a big issue. i wonder, i know blacks are there, i wonder if the issues broaden up. >> i'm hearing a lot of chatter about different protest ideas. you hear various chatter on -- what kind of impact do you think it should happen. >> what kind of impact that should have is the fact that people watch and see and they understand this is a problem that needs to be a solution,
there needs to be changed. you know, we've heard from people like congressman john lewis has talk about a solution saying, community policing. you've heard that from the justice department and also from that study that the president had 21st century policing. we also heard from the homeland security head, j. johnson who said community policing. he also said to me, the day of the dallas memorial, we were in this -- i was in his office and i interviewed him. he said, you know, when there is a breach between the community and law enforcement, it is a national security issue. and that it really is real because you don't have trust. how can you ask someone if you see something, say something. >> by the way, another universal team here, trust. the broken trust. it's so many aspects of our lives, so many different groups are feeling this, lack of broken trust any way. >> i'll be back with one more story. stay tuned.
well, in case you missed it, slightly lighter note here, there's a hillary clinton on series between two firms. >> as secretary, how many words per minute could you type and how does president obama like his coffee, like himself, weak? >> you know, jack, those are really out of date questions. you need to get out more. >> what happens if you become pregnant? are we going to be stuck with
tim kaichb for nine months, how does this work. >> i could send you some pamphlets. >> it was fairly disappearance of president obama's a city on edge and a nation divided. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews who is in ireland to receive an award. meanwhile, charlotte, north carolina, is bracing for violence tonight. the national guard has arrived to try to prevent what would be a third consecutive night of unrest in the wake of the police-involved shooting of 43-year-old keith lamont