tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC October 3, 2016 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT
>> who lose as billion dollars in a single year. >> i understand the tax laws better than almost everyone, which is why i am one who can truly fix them. >> the fight over trump's taxes hits the trail. >> i have brilliantly used those laws. >> tonight, as clinton moves ahead in key battleground states, why donald trump's tax trouble is just starting. plus, from the saturday night meltdown. >> give me a break. >> to sunday morning -- >> the man's a genius. >> the state of the trump campaign as their top surrogate gets ready to debate. and another decision -- >> this fall it's very tough. >> lebron james takes his talents to brooklyn. >> i was especially honored to receive the endorsement of lebron james. >> i'll ask senator sherrod brown if the king can deliver
ohio when "all in" starts right now. good evening from washington, d.c., i'm chris hayes. tonight, donald trump and his running mate mike pence are campaigning in battleground states trying to rebound from the worst week probably ever. it's been seven days since trump's disastrous performance followed by the feud with former miss universe accusing him of mistreatment and attacking hillary clinton over her husband's sexual history. a bunch of new battleground states suggest this has taken a toll. clinton now holds sizeable leads in colorado, florida, pennsylvania and just barely north carolina, enough states to deliver an electoral college win. trump still holds the lead in ohio. after all of that this weekend came "the new york times" bombshell report, a loophole that may have allowed him to
avoid paying federal income tax for two decades. the nominee tried to explain it away using language from his convention speech. "nobody knows the system better than me which is why i alone can fix it". >> many so-called experts, due to their sheer size and complexity of the code don't have a clue what these pages represent. i understand the tax laws better than almost anyone, which is why i am one who can truly fix them. i understand it. i get it. >> according to records obtained by "the times," trump declared a $916 million loss on his 1995 income tax return, a deduction so enormous, it could have allowed him to legally avoid paying federal income taxes for 18 years. we have no way if that's what he actually did. his campaign didn't deny it. they said, "mr. trump has paid hundreds of millions of dollars
in property taxes, sales, real estate taxes, city taxes state taxes along with charitable contributions." we have no way to know if any of that is true without seeing his tax returns. more on the charity in a moment. >> there's no one who has shown more genius in their way to maneuver around the tax code and this is actually a very, very good story for donald trump. >> don't you think a man who has this kind of economic genius is a lot better for the united states than a woman and the only thing she's ever produced is a lot of work for the fbi checking out her e-mails. >> meanwhile in ohio, hillary clinton is using "the times" report to sell her broader argument about trump's character. >> here's my question. what kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a single year? this is trump to a t. he's taken corporate excess and made a business model out of it. >> just as the tax return story
is being published on saturday night, about 36 hours give or take after the early-morning tweet storm, the candidate delivered an unhinged performance, the kind we haven't seen in, well, quite a while. weeks at least. since the campaign managed to keep him on teleprompter. it was a classic trump offscript, calling hillary clinton crazy and even faking her fainting spell at the 9/11 memorial. >> here's a woman, she's supposed to fight all of these different things and she can't make it 15 feet to her car. give me a break. give me a break. [cheers and applause ] give me a break. she's got bad temperament. she's got -- she could be crazy. she could actually be crazy. let me tell you, hillary clinton's only loyalty is to her
financial contributors and to herself. i don't even think she's loyal to bill, if you want to know the truth. and really, folks, really, why should she be, right? why should she be? >> tax return story and trump's own behavior have managed to overshadow a handful of other reports that may have been campaign ending in any other election year. the associated press spoke to former crew members on "the apprentice" that described lewd behavior behind the scenes, talking about which contestants he'd like to have sex with. according to the trump campaign, these allegations are without merit. also, trump organization did business with an iranian bank and rented office space and kept it as a tenant for another four years after the treasury department designated the bank as controlled by the iranian government. newsweek has a big report about
trump buying steel from manufacturers based in china instead of the u.s. as a result of a report on his charitable foundation, the foundation lacks the proper certification to deliver deletions. joining me, andrew sullivan, michael steele, former chair of the rnc, and president and ceo of center for american progress. i feel the way you feel sometimes at a big hotel brunch or buffet. there's so much. i'm not sure what to put on the plate first. >> how about we start with the sausage. >> let's start with the taxes. i don't want to talk about tax policy because i'll talk about that later in the show. to me, the biggest thing here is, it's hard to lose $900 million in a year. >> actually, it really isn't, given -- i'm going to tell you,
given the magnitude of the types of businesses and transactions easy volume ved in, we don't know if that's a combination of losses that have added up to that, if that's a single loss, we don't know. >> right. >> but the total is -- i mean, it's a lot of money. >> 2% of the reported losses. >> but a lot of that was probably related to casino transactions that were going bad at the time in terms of the types of -- >> which speaks to the point that at that time -- >> how can the house lose. >> in the '90s -- >> why are we sitting here shocked that businesses lose money? they do. businesses lose a lot of money and when you aggregate it over a period of time, it can be a lot of money. >> andrew, do you think this -- >> i'm not shocked by the number, no. >> this guy a great businessman. that's his essential selling point. >> you can be a good businessman and still lose money. >> he was a terrible businessman. if you actually look at history of this and how much he spent in atlantic city, how he organized
it, how crazy the organization was, how he himself was losing it the first week -- >> that's not all of his casino properties. that's not a lot of the successful transactions. >> the only excuse he had today was that we had a real estate recession in the early '90s. this was '95, way after the worst. >> right. >> the more you look at his record, it's fueled entirely by his political connections and leverage. >> and you have not discussed his successes as well. you want to focus on the negative stuff as well as -- >> he's had one major unmitigated success and that was playing a successful businessman on television. that was very successful. other than that, he had four bankruptcies, left a whole bunch of -- >> out of how many properties he owns and manages. >> so many things went out. >> i get -- >> chris, i get what you're trying to do but i'm just saying, you've got to keep it all in context here.
i mean, there are -- i don't know the man -- all the man's business. i'm just saying what i've read and do know, i piece it all together, there are pockets of failures, obviously, but also pockets of success. >> michael, it's because he used his political connections to get special -- >> who doesn't? >> i'm sorry, but when you're working for a living, you don't have those connections and you can't get -- and the man used his tax lawyers -- let me finish. >> what world do you live in that you think business men don't -- particularly in new york -- don't use their connections? come on. >> his entire world is built on connections and leverage. >> of course. >> and incredibly risky leverage. >> at the same time, can i just point out that he has a consistent history of not paying the people who work for him? so at the same time that he was -- basically using the tax code to not pay taxes, he was stiffing, you know, small
business after small business after small business. don't tell me he's a good business -- >> you factually don't know that. you can't make that statement. >> at the time, he was not paying taxes. he's made this claim that he was a fantastic businessman but will not show his taxes to prove it. you have no idea. this is all a charade as far as we know. >> i've been saying since the beginning he should release the taxes otherwise we wouldn't have this conversation. oh, wait, we would. you say lots of failures but he also has lots of successes. >> how do you know? >> because i look at the properties that are successful, the casinos that are successful. >> he uses his brand. you don't know what he owns. >> that's success, isn't it? >> if you could take your name and plaster it on a building if someone gave you $100 million, you wouldn't call that success?
>> if i lost a billion dollars in a year, i would not be telling the american people i'm a great success. i would say i'm a failure. >> michael, this -- this is the point. to me, what he's been most successful at is presenting himself as a success and the guy has gone through nine lives. i remember growing up in new york city and the tabloids were -- he was washed out and kept coming back. the biggest thing that really made him come back after a big stream of really bad embarrassing failures was "the apprentice" and the thing that he was best at, the thing that he's been best at at this campaign, he was really good on that show. it rated, made money and in this campaign we've seen him able to successfully project success, which is part of the reason i think a lot of people think he doesn't want to release his taxes. >> the only reason he didn't crash and burn was because of his name. okay? and because he was too big -- let me finish. he was too big to fail.
he got the banks around him and realized if they let him fail as he should have, they would have gone down, too. the amount of special breaks this man has gotten from his entire life -- >> don't claim you're a champion of the middle class and working people when you basically used a rigged system to advance yourself and don't pay the people you owe. >> let me ask you this, michael. so we have a great teleprompter period, okay? >> yes. >> which was right around -- two things happened. kellyanne conway comes on, hillary clinton faints at the 9/11 memorial, there's the deplorable comment and trump spent about three weeks on prompter. he's doing things like boring, normal stuff. he did an education day where we are rolling out or education policy. i sort of know how this game goes. that's the thing to me that in some ways is most notable about the past week, in the wake of the debate performance, all of that is gone. he's got the phone back, he's doing impersonations at the podium and that to me, if you're a republican in the rnc, that's
the most terrifying -- >> let me, number one, there is no down ballot problem the way everyone projected it would be before. >> there's less, i agree. >> voters have bifurcated this race in a way and will continue to do so over the next 40 days. you're absolutely right, however, though in the turn that we've seen to have seen happen in the past week where he's gone back in to manic trump where he's got to respond to everything and fixate on one person for seven days. >> which -- and i've got to say, again, just to keep our eyes on the ball here, you can say that's bad politics. it's unnerving in the person that wants to be the most powerful person in the world. >> i am not disagreeing with you. don't get me wrong. >> it's incredibly unnerving and sends waves of anxiety through me. the idea that someone this unstable, this unable to be controlled even by the people around him who he trusts could possibly be president of the united states but it's also, michael, sickening. when does a presidential
candidate mock another person's illness? >> yeah. >> where will he -- how low will this awful human being stoop? >> we always find a new one, don't we? we always find a new low to reach. >> i think that was a new one. >> so the bottom -- but we do, because when you look at where the polls are and where this election is, if it was that offensive, if people were that turned off, this would be a 30-point race, a 50-point race. this would be a very different race than the one that we have now. so i get -- i get the frustration and anxiety we have with trump but this is also kind of a looking at ourselves and looking at the opponent that he has, that is not generating that kind of -- >> let me just say, first and foremost, we are in day seven of the meltdown. polls are moving. we'll see what it's like in a few days. >> how many times have we been at day seven meltdown.
>> do you ever post convention? >> no. >> do you ever post gop debates? >> my point is, i think in about a week or two people are actually going to be voting and i think the real challenge -- >> they already are. >> and the real challenge here is we're seeing what he would be like under stress. >> right. >> essentially, he just got bathed by hillary clinton. foreign countries try to bait as well. >> yes. >> he's in a campaign where he's restricted by a vote and he's completely unhinged. imagine what he'll be like as president when there is no vote coming up and i think that scares a lot of people. >> that's the open question and we're 36 days out and some polling shows that it matters to the margins but there's a bedrock for those whom it does not. >> clinton could have knocked him out after the debate. >> there's no such thing as a knockout. >> no. but this is a contest between two campaigns that are really bad as he's in a different
category. people want change. people really want change. he's got that. people want an outsider. she's a terrible candidate. if biden were running, he would be killing it. >> last point, the polling that actually asks people about president obama in ohio had him running essentially equal with her, which is an interesting point to the structural point to all of this. thank you very much. ahead, campaign surrogates are scrambling to clean up trump post debate. first, three pages of tax returns opens a massive pandora's box for the republican nominee, the depth and breath.
investments and failing casinos. now, how anybody can lose a dollar, let alone a billion dollars in the ka seen know industry is kind of beyond me. right? but it's just hard to figure. but as a result, it doesn't look like he paid a dime of federal income tax for almost two decades. >> donald trump declared a $916 million loss on his 1995 tax returns undercuts one of trump's selling points, his carefully cultivated reputation as a businessman. he did no, st dispute that he l a billion dollars, just that it wasn't his fault. >> the conditions were almost as bad as the great depression of 1929 and far worse than the great recession of 2008. not even close.
>> that claim is ridiculous on its face. it was a minor blip compared to the great recession, which, again, was driven primarily by real estate losses. and trump's losses in the 1990s were truly historic. in 1995, trump claimed nearly 2% of all the net operating losses on individual tax returns in the entire country. think about that. and as hillary clinton noted, the guy was running casinos. trump likes to claim the system is rigged against ordinary americans but what a glimpse shows is that it is in favor of wealthy people like trump. using his losses to deny the government revenue and also whose tax plan would allow such practices to continue. while making changes that would likely benefit people like trump and businesses like his own in a major way. remember, this is all based on three pages of trump's tax records from 1995. even after this weekend's
bombshell report, trump is still refusing to release his tax returns which suggests, as her client points out, whatever is in his returns is even worse than what "the new york times" is telling the world. joining me now, jared bernstein, former chief economist and economic adviser to vice president joe biden. les talk about theax item. i'll play devil's advocate for a minute. when you have a loss, the government doesn't cut you a check. you get a loss that you get to defer over a number of years and what is wrong with that? >> there is nothing wrong with that if it's a couple of years. >> again, we don't know if he used it. >> because of these carry-back losses and carry-forward, you have 20 years within -- actually, 18 years within what you can claim these losses against your tax liability. now, basically the way this loss thing is supposed to work is that if you're a small business, a start-up, or even a large company that hits a recession for a year or two, you can hit
by a down economy and then actually could use that year or two to make up those losses. what we see happening here is by 1995, by the way -- and the real estate market had completely picked up, trump not only looked like he's continuing to tap these losses year and year out, he's making new losses. that's something that was in the report. there was a $16 million loss in 1995. he continues to generate -- >> part of this, too, is distinguishing between economic losses and paper losses. part of the game here and part of the reason that the tax code particularly in real estate which is very complex and shot through with loopholes, part of the game is to get real economic gains while creating paper losses so you don't have to pay any taxes. >> correct. the trump play is a very simple one. first of all, you borrow a bunch to buy a bunch of buildings and write off the interest on that borrowing. that's play one. play two, you can start to deduct losses, which we're seeing now. and part of those are just kind of a straight line depreciation
that goes on in the real estate code and even if the building is actually appreciating in realtime, so you're reeling in income, you can claim depreciation on paper losses and what his tax lawyer said, i see what donald trump was doing back in the 1990s, building his income significantly while cami claiming his losses. >> a homeless guy is worth more than me. i'm worth negative $900 million. he's not living on the street. he's living extremely well because there's dollar income coming in, it's just hidden by the paper losses. >> right. when you want to talk about carrying these losses that's a way that's reasonable in the code, you can talk about a year or two either way where you're actually hitting hard times but in this case, you're talking about claiming losses in a period where you're accumulating significant income. >> you've also got the -- >> most people can't do that. >> the policy aspect of this is there are huge breaks for the top in his tax plan. about an average of $120,000, i
believe, for the top 1%. there's also getting rid of the estate tax. the reason i find that so fascinating is, part of the play is, if you can hold on to your buildings and never sell them and you don't pay out the taxes. then, if you can just -- when you die, there's no estate tax, you get away with it all. >> that's right. getting rid of the estate tax takes care of that part. there's something else going on here. you may notice what he's done in this tax return from 1995, he's taken his business losses and brought them over to the personal side. it's called pass-through income. his plan is to take the pass-through rate down from the current 40%, which is a top rate for a guy like him, to 15%. >> okay. so in his own world, he would smuggle a huge amount of income that would be tax reduced under his plan. >> yeah. >> jared bernstein, thanks for your time tonight. >> my pleasure. first, lebron james says he's with hillary and why his announcement is much more than a
donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the chinese. >> i do not say that. >> hillary clinton and donald trump were not asked about climate change at last week's debate but the fact that she brought it up on her own and then trump claimed that was not true. trump who wants to eliminate the epa is very much on the wrong side of it. polling of millennials found that three-quarters are more likely to support a candidate who wants to transition the u.s.
away from fossil fuels and clean energy. more than half wrongly felt there was no distinction between clinton and trump on the issue, which goes to why clinton so often raises climate change on the campaign trail. as for trump's running make, mike pence, he's only recently acknowledged that human activity, quote, has some impact on climate. he's fought legislation to address climate change. >> i'm keeping an open mind about the science of all of this, but, you know -- >> are you convinced that climate change is manmade? >> look, i don't know that that is a resolved issue in science today. >> tomorrow night's vice presidential debate, democratic vice presidential nominee tim kaine will likely press mike pence on climate issues. that's going to be the least of his issues. he's going to have to defend all of the things that trump has said and done, heck, in the last week.
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you know, it's a great day to be here in ohio for a lot of different reasons. one is, i am so thrilled that lebron james has endorsed me and joined our campaign. now, one thing i know, i'll just say it, because i know it's for sure, i hope to be elected president but i know, here in ohio, lebron will always be the
king. >> hillary clinton was quick to tout an endorsement from james. one of the most popular athletes on the planet, perhaps the most beloved figure in ohio wrote, "only one person running truly understands the struggles of an akron child born into poverty. that candidate is hillary clinton." he could help expand the electorate in ohio. while a new poll finds clinton ahead in three of the swing states, she trails trump in ohio by five points. this is due in some part to ohio's demographics. older, whiter, and continues to favor trump. so to draw attention to the state's voter registration deadline next tuesday -- >> i oppose tpp now. i will oppose it after the
election. lee oppose it as president because it is one-sided and unfair to american workers as president, i will appoint tough, independent authorities to strengthen anti-trust enforcement and really scrutinize mergers and acquisitions. consider the recent examples we've seen of egregious corporate behave. look at wells fargo. one of the nation's biggest banks, bullying thousands of employees into committing fraud against unsuspecting customers. >> and joining me now is senator sherrod brown, democratic from ohio. i've got to start with lebron james because the obvious metaphor here is that hillary clinton has been trailing in ohio poll after poll after poll, i think somewhat surprisingly, a little surprisingly, but then the cavs were down and they looked like they had no shot. lebron james comes riding in to
save the day. his big endorsement yet, do you see a repeat this year? >> i remember when lebron signed back with cleveland. people are excited about it here. i think that lebron will help with voter turnout. i think lebron will help with young voters and he's committed to this. he's a very public, spirited man he's an athlete. most athletes are not considered particularly engaged. you can look at his work in akron and what he stands for and at his commitment to civil rights and equal rights and i think lebron just cares about people and i think you can see that is something more than a professional athlete here and i think people will listen. >> there's a story in "newsweek" that caught my eye particularly given the context of trump overperforming in a state like ohio where manufacturing, trade, loss of jobs in industry is
front of mind and trump has used chinese steel in two recent, big projects, reporting on this in "newsweek," what's your reaction to that story? >> well, my reaction is it's all a game to donald trump. it's always about him and his bottom line. he buys his suits and his ties in china and mexico. the suit i'm wearing, i bought 11 miles from literally made 11 miles from my house by union workers. i can tell you exactly where he can get steel about five miles from my house. he can buy aluminum about ten miles from my house and go toledo and by his glassware. it's about outsourcing jobs. the only thing made in america that donald trump -- that ever gets close to him is his hat that says "make america great again." i don't know that he's ever cared about this. you and i have talked about this
before, chris. when i've worked against bad trade agreements for 20 years and i've never, ever seen donald trump weigh in and add to that chorus or help us defeat these bad trade agreements. he wants different trade policy now that he's running for president. people in ohio are starting to see that and people that make things in ohio, they are going to increasingly move towards hillary because they see through donald trump's hypocrisy that way. >> well, watching her in toledo today was interesting. she was talking about wells fargo and about regulation, the importance of the consumer financial protection bureau and about anti-trust and competition and this sort of need to have the government sort of actively manage competition to avoid large monopolies, large domination of market sectors. it's something i haven't heard a lot about in this campaign but is a huge issue and there's an argument that it's been a bigger part of what has happened to economies in places like ohio than even the particulars of the
trade deals. >> yeah. what happens is small business gets squeezed, supply chain gets more expensive, driving up the price of whatever product is at the end product there and ohio workers lose jobs so often and it's partly outsourcing trade agreements, it's partly tax policy which, if you shot a company down in akron, ohio, or canton, ohio, and move it to beijing, you can get a tax break for doing that. that may be one of the things that donald trump is hiding in his taxes that he's been fitted from moving from moving towards offshore and it hurts our small businesses and workers and means that the tax space is undermined. come to most cities in the industrial midwest, maybe the whole country, and you see infrastructure that is decaying, police and fire is inadequate, just not enough police and firefighters, not enough
teachers in the schools because of what happened to communities because of trade policy and tax policy. donald trump's benefited from that. he's shown no interest ever in joining the fight back on making those policies work better for working america. >> let me ask you this. barack obama carried the state of ohio twice. you've been elected and then re-elected in that state. you've got a situation right now where donald trump is polling ahead in that state. rob portman thought that would be a competitive race with your democratic colleague, of course, the former governor of ohio, that that race doesn't look that competitive. is ohio fundamentally changing in some deep way away from the democrats? >> ohio is not. ohio is not particularly changing. i mean, the country's getting less and less -- ohio is the same ethnic breakdown as it was half a generation ago. we were about 20% people of
color, maybe 80, 81% white. we're not changing as fast as north carolina or georgia or virginia or colorado in terms of immigrants. some asians are moving in, some latinos moving in but not in huge numbers. part of it is we've turned the corner to ohio bringing young people back. we are blessed in the state with some of the best small college four-year liberal arts schools dotting our states, lots of big universities keeping those graduates in ohio. that's going to fundamentally change the state. but ethnic breakdown, the people of color moving in is not as rapid as other states. >> senator sherrod brown, thanks for being here. >> good to be with you, chris. thanks. a tumultuous week for campaign surrogates as trump's top surrogate prepares to take the stage. but first, thing one and thing two right after this break.
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notice that are coming here from syria as part of this mass migration, that if i win, if i win, they are going back. they are going back. i'm telling you. >> thing one tonight, donald trump has made his feelings about syrian refugees very clear, keep them there or send them back to the worst war happening in the world right now. zen know phobic fear is shared by his running mate, governor mike pence of indiana. before he became the vice presidential nominee, he issued to reblock the settling of syrian refugees. >> i directed today to immediately suspend all resettlement efforts for syrian refugees until we can receive the absolute assurance that individuals coming into our state are representative of our people. >> a position by 30 other state
so one day before the big faceoff between pence and kaine, the message was deliberate and clear, indiana governor mike pence has no legal authority to stop the resettlement of syrian refugees in his state. according to a ruling by a three-judge panel, the court sharply criticized pence's rationale for banning refugees due to terrorism saying it was evidence-free, quote, nightmare speculation. judge richard positive ner saying that's the equivalent of saying that he wants to forbid black people to settle in indiana, not because they are black but bus he's afraid of them but that of course would be racial discrimination. the three-judge panel which
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narrator: it wasn't that long ago. years of devastating cutbacks to our schools. 30,000 teachers laid off. class sizes increased. art and music programs cut. we can't ever go back. ryan ruelas: so vote yes on proposition 55. reagan duncan: prop 55 prevents 4 billion in new cuts to our schools. letty muñoz-gonzalez: simply by maintaining the current tax rate on the wealthiest californians. ryan ruelas: no new education cuts, and no new taxes. reagan duncan: vote yes on 55. sarah morgan: to help our children thrive.
no there's no one who has shown they are more genius than to move around the tax code and this is a very, very good story for donald trump. >> don't you think someone who has this kind of economic genius is better than a woman who has only produced a lot of work for the fbi checking out her e-mails? >> two donald trump's most powerful surrogates tried to say it was positive for the republican nominee. needless to say, it's been a tough week for trump supporters who find themselves defending an increasingly erratic trump on a whole host of issues.
giuliani, whose second wife, lavished prais on his third soon to be third wife was asked whether he was the right person to level those kinds of charges. >> you have your own indid i dell teas, sir. >> everybody, does. i'm a roman catholic and talk about that with my priest. >> during the fallout over clinton's affair with monica lewinsky, it's the wrong way to go and should not bait in the swamp. trump's new york co-chair, more succinct in his critique, i'm not sure anyone gives a hell about monica.
marsha blackburn gave this advice. >> he would be well-served not to talk about mrs. clinton, her relationship with her husband, talk about miss universe and focus on the issues. >> ah, yes, focus on the issues. that guidance may have come too little too late. he attacked alicia machado, even declaring without evidence that she participated in a sex tape and you should check it out. this has unravelled ahead of the biggest night for donald trump's number one surrogate, mike pence. what issues he should be forced to answer for and what else may happen in tomorrow night's debate is next. americans...
what will mike pence have to defend tomorrow night? joining me now is sabrina, jonathan. so i'll start with you, jonathan. so i think if you're gaming this out from the clinton side, you don't care about mike pence and mike pence's record much, right? i mean, you want to make mike pence defend donald trump. >> i think you do but on the other hand this is a real opportunity for democrats to hammer home some issues that have been obscured by the personalities. i think the democratic party feels pretty good about the way it can stack up in a standard d versus our debate about tax cuts
for the rich, health care. pence is pretty far right on some of these issues, climate change. >> that's fascinating. what you're saying is you have the opportunity to run the generic r versus generic d debate that we're not getting at the vice presidential level because of the uniqueness of each of these candidates. >> right. i don't have any reporting that that's what they want to do but it seems logical to remind people of the general, ideological policy stakes of the election. >> lgbt rights will be a big one. mike pence signed the controversial religious freedom law that kicked off protests to similar bills across other parts of the country. >> and i want to play this sound that just came in of a debate with kelly ayotte and her trying to explain donald trump and it's the classic trump squirm, which is what i think we'll see a lot
of tomorrow night. take a listen. >> would you tell them to be like donald trump, would you point to him as a role model? >> i -- well, i think that certainly there are many role models that we have and i -- i believe he can serve as president and so, absolutely, i would do that. >> you can imagine him saying to mike pence, do you think we should check out the sex tape? he's going to be sitting across from him. >> yeah. >> do you think she put on too much weight, governor pence? >> why is a nominee tweeting about that at 3:00 in the morning. >> i think jonathan's point is that can get played out very quickly and there's also this possibility that the rnc today put up this web video where they will go after tim kaine because he was a criminal defendant -- i'm sorry. that would probably be -- a criminal defense attorney.
i think it's one of the most admirable parts of his career. >> look, at the end of the day, tim kaine was doing his job and opponents tried this when he was running for governor and senate and voters found this unfair to point to his record as criminal defense attorney where of course you have to defend criminals. >> it's right there in the name. >> tim kaine is very well-liked even by conservatives. he had a lot of conservative votes when he ran for office in virginia and has a fairly centrist record. lindsey graham to marco rubio, i asked them about the pick and they said we don't want to criticize him. he's a great guy. >> i'm concerned about trade and where trade is a focal point. pence has been an extremely pro-trade deal legislator. kaine has been fairly pro trade deal. they are both on tickets where
sort of skepticism of these kind of trade deals are the guiding light, particularly for pence, i think, who is really -- this has been something that he's really hammered home. he's going to have to explain that, i would imagine. >> that's right. it's like another layer of hypocrisy on top of an issue where hillary clinton has a really hard to defend stance of i used to love ttp and now i hate ttp and donald trump, you know, didn't care about this until five minutes ago. >> right. >> name one thing that these laws have ever done. >> ever. >> and he was selected as her running mate and that's when they said tim kaine will follow hillary clinton's position on ttp. >> you can have a disingenuousness off on this issue. the other thing that i think is interesting here, when we talk about generic r or d, mike pence represents the former future of
the republican party. >> yeah. >> he was the person who was in the ideological sweet spot that i think a lot of people thought would be what we would see and has been so moved to the side but in some ways is reassuring for certain parts of the republican establishment. >> i think it's worth noting, as sabrina mentioned, he's very conservative and donald trump had to reach out to the arch conservatives to reassure them that pence would have his hands on the policy and trump would just kind of be the blowhard in front whereas clinton went more to the center. if you put these two against each other, you have one of the more moderate democrats versus a more extreme republican which i think is advantageous. >> mike pence has ran a fascinating campaign compared to donald trump. >> and the gaslighting thing -- >> i'm mike pence and i'm running for president. >> sabrina, jonathan, thank you. that is "all in" for now. tomorrow night, live at 6:00
p.m. eastern from farmville, virginia, as part of our all-day coverage leading up to the vice presidential debate which you can catch right here at 9:00 p.m. the rachel maddow show starts right now. >> thank you, chris. thanks for joining us from home tonight. big night tonight. the eve of the vice presidential debate. by this time tomorrow night, you'll be able to tell those two guys apart. nbc historian michael besh loss is here to talk about tomorrow night's debate. also, we've had what appears to be the october surprise for this year's election. at least the first october surprise. "the new york times" has found a piece at least of the white whale of political reporting for this year. they have published a portion of what appear to be donald trump's tax returns. "the new york times" reporters who broke that incredible story are here with us tonight live. in just a moment, that is all