tv Morning Joe MSNBC October 5, 2016 3:00am-6:01am PDT
senator bernie sanders will attend two events in wisconsin. they are all over the place. i'm alex witt alongside betty nguyen and louis there's a fundamental choice for the american electorate. do you want your hired president in hillary clinton or fired president in donald trump. >> you use that a whole lot. i think you're running mate used a lot of predo lines. >> when governor pence was in congress, he was chief cheerleader for privatization of social security. >> a chance to explain. >> there they go again. >> donald trump can't start a twitter war with miss universe without shooting himself in the foot. he loves dictators. a personal mt. rushmore. >> did you work on that one a long time? that had a lot of really creative lines in it. >> good morning. it's wednesday, october 5th.
welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have veteran columnist and msnbc contributor mike barnicle. nicole wallace working all night and in richmond, virginia, manage pg editor of bloomberg politics, co-host of "with all due respect" on msnbc, mark halperin. >> mark halperin, who won the debate? >> the american people. even honest democrats would say tim kaine had some good moments but not his best night. mike pence said things that were not true. he was on defense. he had a better night. it gives donald trump a chance to come into the debate on sunday with a little momentum but not on the defense. he should study what pence did that work. it's up to donald trump. pence won on the stage.
>> cnn poll that came out last night actually came out this morning taken last night found that mike pence won the debate 48% to 42%. neither at 10%. doesn't really matter. you look at the people scoring this debate. all of the reporters that we're talking about who tweet even those reporters seemed to give it to kaine. >> i think that was mostly on style. pence, i mean. >> most of it was on style. tim kaine came out of the gate. you could see he was jacked up. full of energy. he was jumping on everything mike pence said. >> do you think he was roided out? >> what is wrong with you? >> he had conseco beforehand shooting him up. >> that's a tough charge. we'll have to report that out. >> he was wired. >> overprepared. >> that was the style of it. i thought if you were a trump supporter who was feeling shaky or you're someone on the fence who wanted to vote for trump but
wasn't sure you could do it and needed soothing balm, it was mike pence last night. that's the style. on the substance, remarkable that tim kaine went after him and said donald trump said that and mike pence would say no he didn't, when he did. he wanted to ban muslims from coming into the country. come on. he didn't say that. you could see kaine getting frustrated with i'm going to stick everything trump ever said on you and pence said he didn't say that. >> it's a style substance thing. republicans for the first time this year finally had somebody to cheer for last night. >> yeah. there was a moment where i thought, god, i wonder how many republican hearts across the country are breaking right now they couldn't flip the coin and flip the ticket. pence was a very reaganest presence. we judge this the way we've consumed this election. we watched every minute. we know that back in the primary pence endorsed cruz over trump.
some people tuning in and certainly the people they need to reach between today and election day, they weren't following every twist and turn of the primary. i think if you just are tuning in and fall is when you decided you're going to study up and you're going to take in these candidates, what you took in in pence was a very presidential figure. now, the little snag might be that everything he said sort of tried to brush off the fact that there is no defense of some of those statements of trump. in terms of performance, i thought that pence turned in the much more steady presidential performance. >> mike barnicle, did pence help donald trump or did pence help pe pence? >> pence helped pence. pence in 2020. he was calm and measured. i don't think the debate moved the meter for either candidate. i think pens despite his commanding presence last night compared to the very
interrupting tim kaine, i think pence might have a problem today and tomorrow with the clips of what people will show what he said during the debate and then the proof of what he denies saying. >> i'm sure they're doing it in brooklyn right now. reports from inside the trump campaign that donald trump was not pleased. said tim kaine won or that mike pence won the debate but did not win it with donald trump but lost it with trump because he seemed to distance himself from donald trump time and again. have you heard that at all? >> i asked about those reports. i'm not able to confirm them. i do think just understanding the psychology of donald trump, you know, a lot of people are saying as nicole suggested why isn't pence the top of the ticket, pence did better than trump. "the wall street journal" lead editorial says that trump should be studying pence. donald trump is going to have to perform. we're just a few days away from the sunday debate which matters a lot more.
trump will have to rise to the occasion and say i'm not going to be threatened by the fact that people are saying pence did such a good job that pence didn't defend me at every turn. i need to learn from mike pence what did he do that was effective in taking after hillary clinton and her record. we'll see if donald trump can do that. all that matters is if trump wins the next debate. pressure is on him. almost everybody in both parties says he must win this debate barring some october surprise that's gigantic, trump must win this debate. that's a lot of pressure. >> a couple other big political stories to get to. let's listen to what happened last night. kaine's strategy throughout the debate was to force pence to defend the controversial statements made by donald trump. >> donald trump has called mexicans rapists and criminals. he's calls women pigs, dogs, disgusting. i don't like saying that in front of my wife and mother. look for donald trump
apologizing to john mccain for not calling him a war hero. did donald trump apologize for taking after somebody in a twitter war and making fun of her weight? did he apologize for saying african-americans are living in hell? did he apologize for saying president obama was not even a citizen of the united states? you will look in vain to see donald trump ever taking responsibility for anybody and apologizing. >> he says ours is an insult driven campaign. did you all just hear that? ours is an insult driven campaign? to be honest with you, if donald trump had said all of the things that he said you said and the way you said he said them, he wouldn't have the fraction of the insults that hillary clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. >> let me ask quickly, nicole, we've just been saying everybody
thinks these vice presidential debate don't matter. 2004, george w. bush gave one of the worst debate performances in the history of modern american politics if you discount what barack obama did in 2012. it was a tie. but dick cheney dismembered -- nobody expected it -- dismember dismembered john edwards in the vice presidential debate. did you see a shift in the polls side the camp? >> we came out of the convention in '04 with a healthy bounce. we went into the first debate against john kerry and i think there was a seven-point swing because of bush's performance and i remember walking to the back of the bus with the "newsweek" poll numbers. sorry. that didn't go over well. cheney went out there and prepped and prepped and prepped. >> what did bush say when you told him he lost 17 points. what did bush said? >> he said we lost the
post-debate spin and i wound up to say no, we didn't, and he wound up to say gotcha! i think kerry was calling the night after the debate that did not go as planned. that was fun. good old days. cheney and there's a caricature of cheney and i understand why it exists, but when he was seated at a table and it's so intimate. these seated debates are at a strategic level and the reason kaine's strategy didn't work is because you're right there interrupting a moderator does not go over well. cheney was methodical. he speaks in a grandfatherly voice. dismembered edwards. not only did he stop the bleeding, i think he turned the momentum back in the direction in the same way joe biden did just as expertly in 2012 after
obama sort of whiffed his first performance. they can hit pause on bleeding. i'm not sure if pence did that. i do think that pence had a very strong performance last night. >> tim kaine was prepared for a debate at standing podiums. >> we're going to play more coming up. a couple different things we need to get to. we'll have more vice presidential debate -- >> did you see obamacare? what is he doing? >> simmer down. >> what did he mean to say? >> he said what he meant to say without saying it. i don't like barack obama is what he said, which he said privately over the years. he said it -- he hasn't said it publicly. that whole thing was i do not like barack obama. >> while campaigning for his wife on monday since you all are talking about something that nobody has heard about yet so we're going to tell people the story and then you can do your
thing. former president bill clinton described obamacare as the craziest thing in the world. >> this guy is amazing. >> just now? >> yesterday or the day before. >> stop it. >> he tried to walk the comment back at a rally in ohio yesterday said the law did a world of good. >> donald trump responded, didn't he? >> what did bill clinton say. this is amazing. >> this is what clinton said on monday followed by trump's attack. >> the people that are getting killed in this deal are small business people and individuals who made just a little too much to get into the subsidies so you have a crazy system where 25 million more people have healthcare and people busting 60 hours a week wind up with premiums doubled and coverage cut in half. it's the craziest thing in the world.
>> my god. >> so this guy, he needs barack obama more than anybody else in the world if he wants his wife to be elected president of the united states. if you give one person to campaign for hillary clinton it would be barack obama. and he just laid a gigantic hand grenade right at the feet of the campaign. >> obama had to cancel an event, i believe, in florida because of the hurricane. >> he's going to cancel one in iowa because of the hurricane too. come on. mark halperin, this guy can be his wife's -- he was barack obama's best surrogate at the convention in charlotte in 2012. but time and time again, he can be his wife's worst nightmare in south carolina making the racially charged comments in
2008. in new hampshire when everyone thought she was going to lose, he said, i can't make her taller. i can't make her a better speaker. can't make her better looking. at the worst possible time. this is really rough, isn't it? >> in little rock we call that a clinton classic. it's been a while since bill clinton has done something like this. it's remarkable if you think about 2008 versus this campaign. he has largely stayed away from saying stuff like this. he's saying what democrats are saying. affordable care act isn't perfect and needs to be fixed up. you can bet they'll review bill clinton's attacks and make sure he doesn't do things like this for the reason you said that they need barack obama fully onboard. they don't need stuff like this right now. >> as you might have guessed donald trump seized on this. even if his cleanup yesterday where bill clinton tried to back pedal saying it's done a world of good. after apologizing he made the point there are a lot of small
business owners out there twisting in the wind under this thing because they don't qualify for it. i think this cuts to a core deep feeling that bill clinton has had for a long time about barack obama. >> everybody has known -- he certainly has told people he does not like barack obama. he's never liked barack obama. you would think he could keep it inside here until after the election. >> a month away from the election. >> especially since by far the two most important and most effective surrogates for hillary clinton are michelle obama. michelle obama was spectacular. the former president of the united states comes on bubbling with resentment over the obama presidency. clearly. >> so what planet is that man on? >> donald trump was listening to bill clinton. here's what he said. >> of all people, maybe he's not a very good surrogate, i don't
think so. president bill clinton came out and told the truth about obamacare. he's absolutely trashed president obama's signature legislation. can you imagine what he went through after making that statement? he went through hell. you know honestly, there have been many nights when he's gone through hell with hillary. >> my gosh. >> he can't even believe his good luck here. >> he says all sorts of crazy stuff. you can see him reading that going did my guys get this right? this teleprompter stuff. it's unbelievable. i don't know what to say on three hours of sleep. >> you were up all night. >> explain that to us. >> the clinton -- >> why did he do that? >> how did he do that? >> you hear antidotally that the former president thinks his
presidency and historical span will be measured as practically a nothing burger. he will be remembered more for monica lewinsky than anything else. barack obama's presidency has had osama bin laden, several other epic things and he's barack obama. and he's more effective on the stump than bill clinton ever was. >> so he's resentful. >> but his wife is trying to be president. you would think he could keep it under wraps for a month as you try to get your wife elected president. >> michelle obama on the stump. she was spectacular. >> fantastic. >> mark halperin, what have you heard from brooklyn? what have you heard from anybody that can explain what the hell happened? >> you know, when he gets out there he muses the pop psychiatrists maybe he doesn't want her to win or he doesn't want president obama to get as
much credit. he wanted to pass universal health care and didn't. i can tell you the chair of clinton campaign is close to former president and current one. i'm certain they're going to figure out how to keep stuff like this from happening and lucky it wasn't worse. the republicans are seizing on it. if they can use this -- >> how can it be worse? tear up a picture of the pope or barack obama? how could it be worse? >> you know he could have said something that would be breaking through more than this is. this is getting some attention. this will be overwhelmed in the next 24 to 48 hours by the debate. they just have to try to keep him in check for just a couple more weeks. >> keep him in check? the craziest thing in the world. >> he could be the first dude. >> he called it the craziest thing in the world. >> he called obamacare the craziest thing in the world. the thing that republicans have been at war with for seven
years. twice the cost. half the coverage. it's the craziest thing in the world. >> i have to see it again. >> let's show it again. >> here's bill clinton trying to destroy his wife's campaign. >> small business people and individuals who made just a little too much to get into these subsidies so you have this crazy system where 25 million more people have health care and people out there busting it sometimes 60 hours a week wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. it's the craziest thing in the world. >> i mean, that could have been ripped out of a trump speech or mike pence speech trying to attack the legacy of barack obama. there's no spinning out of that. you hear everybody doing their best last night. there's no way to spin that. >> he said twice it was the craziest thing in the world. sounded like republicans who said people busting it 60 hours a week working a ining can't af.
>> 2010 tea party message. >> all right. there is so much more to get to. >> mark halperin says it could be worse. >> it could be worse. >> no, it can't be. >> i'm telling you. >> that silenced everybody. still ahead on "morning joe," trump campaign manager kellyanne conway joins us live. and hillary clinton's chairman john podesta will be with us as well and chuck todd and former secretary for homeland security under president bush michael chertoff backing hillary clinton for president. >> let's go to bill karins for a look at hurricane matthews leaving flooding behind in haiti. >> a lot of changes overnight. important changes for everyone on the east coast. the storm is currently off cuba over the warm waters. it went from category 4 to category 3. that's good.
it's over warm water and could go up to a category 4 today. hurricane warnings north of miami up to just south of the melbourne area and hurricane watches extend all of the way through florida. here's the new forecast path updated at 5:00 a.m. from the hurricane center. look how close this will be for florida. 30 miles offshore a category 4 hurricane as we go through thursz night and all day friday. i mean, this could be a 24 to 36 hour devastating blow if this shifts ever so slightly toward the coastline of east coast of florida. i mentioned there were changes overnight. one of the good things is if you're up in virginia, maryland and delaware, this forecast path is taking the storm move out to sea how and not up the east coast. new england is looking safe. mid-atlantic is looking safe and looking better for our friends at the outer banks. from coastline of south carolina, georgia and florida, those areas are most at risk and only 36 hours from those hurricane force winds arriving on the east coast of florida. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.
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weapons. saudi arabia, japan, south korea. ronald reagan said something interesting about nuclear proliferation back in the 1980s. he said the problem with nuclear proliferation is that some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. i think that's who governor pence's running mate is. exactly who president reagan warned us about. >> senator, that was even beneath you and hillary clinton and that's pretty low. >> do you think we should have more nuclear weapons in the world will make us safer? >> ronald reagan also said nuclear war should never be fought because it can never be won. >> 24 past the hour. pence was tonally in control. >> tonally he was great. he had -- it's kind of like kellyanne conway is coming on the show. he had a pretty tough job. he had to keep swatting away,
no, donald trump never said that about rosie o'donnell. tonally he was on. tonally -- unfortunately tim kaine who is also pitch perfect here was not last night. >> all right. the latest numbers show clinton supporters outspending trump. when it comes to swing state ad spending, donald trump is beginning to match clinton in states like new hampshire though he still trails elsewhere. still, clinton has drastically outspent trump for the cycle. her supporters spent 34 million more in florida. 14 million more in north carolina. and in north carolina, after being in a virtual tie two weeks ago, in the elon university poll, hillary clinton leads donald trump 45% to 39%. gary johnson polling at 9%. >> we'll go to north carolina first and then other swing state polls.
we had two polls out yesterday from north carolina that actually showed this race deadlocked. >> trump can't win without north carolina. clinton can. >> can we see mark halperin's face. it's a beautiful face. >> so sweet. >> so that poll had trump down six points. i think you guys had a dead heat as well i think it was quinnipiac had it in a dead heat. >> must win for trump. not for clinton. hard to state to poll in. a lot of new people. what's the electorate going to look like? i think in the end trump winning north carolina doesn't get him 270 but he must have it to have a chance for 270. you'll see as much focus in that state as you see in any other. florida is a big state. watch them. i think trump people would concede they're behind there. that's why the next debate is so important. they must catch up in that state in order to then look for the final electoral votes they need
to have a chance. >> mark halperin was having ribs and pancakes and licking his fingers. let's go to pennsylvania. >> in pennsylvania, hillary clinton leads ten points in the latest monmouth university poll. >> there was a poll yesterday that showed quinnipiac showed four-point lead. that appears to be an outlier. clinton comfortably ahead at double digits. >> even when trump was narrowing the gap nationally, he had a problem there. it is the view of both campaigns that although trump and advisers talked a lot about pennsylvania and don't rule out that, that to get to 270 electoral votes is not going to involve pennsylvania right now as the most likely path. it will involve some combination of other smaller states which get him just above 270 if he can win them all but narrows the path. pennsylvania option was the lead option for trump. i don't think it is any longer. >> that quinnipiac poll there,
the first poll that came out showed four points. that tells it different than other two or three that have come out that show double digits. that makes all of the difference in the world. pennsylvania is a double digit lead. you move that as we always move it in october in the democratic column. >> that tightened up. colorado tightened up. hillary clinton stopped running ads because she was so comfortable. that opened up again. so does pennsylvania. they can put it together with small states. he doesn't have a lot of margin for error. if he loses colorado and pennsylvania, it's a tough road to the white house. >> we go back to the debate on sunday night. he has to have a huge debate. that tightens everything up. >> did you see the money gap in pennsylvania? >> there is -- >> 16 million for the clinton. it's a pretty wide gap. >> glad you brought that up. trump people have been saying for some time that they were going to hold off. they were going to raise money. they have raised a lot of money. they said yesterday they're going to start spending it over
the next week, which is sort of the way campaigns used to be run. you used to raise a lot of money and wait until you could see the whites of your opponent's eyes. >> mix that with an october surprise. you never know. >> i've been to a lot of campaign events in bucks county, pennsylvania, and republicans never win pennsylvania. sort of graveyard of gop fantasies. i understand why they spend so much time there. i think they'll regret it. >> you think who will regret it? >> it's not winnable for republicans. >> you don't think bucks county is winnable for republicans? >> the state is so hard. new jersey is another one that's sort of gop fantasy land. i'm not talking about just trump. just the last two decades republicans sort of set their sights on these states that are structurally so deficient. it's just very hard. >> republicans seemingly have always been misled about
pennsylvania based upon james carville's famous description of pennsylvania. you have pittsburgh on western end. philadelphia on the eastern end and alabama in between. >> you look at the northeast, mark halperin, you had republicans winning both connecticut and maine every year from '72 to '88. you had them winning pennsylvania a lot more than not. i think they won it every year -- i don't know if ford won in '76 but won pennsylvania from '72 to '88. held their own in new jersey. it's just sort of withered away. donald trump's big argument was i can win these states. i can win in the northeast. i can win in new york. right now maybe he can win in new hampshire. even that seems to be slipping away. the republican party seems locked out in presidential campaigns in the northeast. >> northeast is tough for any republican. trump made the argument that he
could win white working class voters and he'll do better with some pennsylvania voters than mitt romney did. in the state polls that show clinton ahead, look at the senate race. pat toomey, conservative republican, is neck and neck in that senate race. if the republican party pours resources in there to help toomey and keep people from ticket splitting, that will help trump ironically being helped by senate candidates in a lot of places rather than his hurting senate candidates. that's the one thing that i think republicans can look at in the latest data and say maybe republicans can find a way to put together. as i said before, pennsylvania option getting to 270 is not where the focus is for either side right now because it's a killing field for republicans in presidential politics. >> if pat toomey wins in pennsylvania and kelly wins in new hampshire, huge republican landslide, those two wins would
be massive wins for the republicans in the senate. >> they're close. >> the must read opinion pages are next on "morning joe." stay with us. plaque psoasis. be the you who shows up in that dress. who hugs a friend. who is done with treatments that don't give you clearer skin. be the you who controls your psoriasis with stelara® just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections and may increase your risk of infections and cancer. some serious infections require hospitalization. before treatment, get tested for tuberculosis. before starting stelara® tell your ctor if you think you ve an infection or have symptoms such as: fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough. always tell your doctor if you have any signs of infection, have had cancer, if u develop any new skin growths or if anyone in your house needs or has recently received a vaccine. alert your doctor of new or worsening problems, including headaches, seizures, confusion and vision problems these may be signs of a rare, potentially fatal brain condition. some serious allergic reactions can occur. do not take stelara® if you are allergic to stelara® or any of its ingredients. most people using stelara® saw 75% clearer skin
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questions. it's the new york post. come on. >> a paper of record. come on. >> it is a paper of record. they said the kardashian that cried wolf. >> burden of proof is on the new york post. that would be an elaborate story to make up, wouldn't it? >> let's move onto politics. >> let's move on. gary johnson tripled down on his approach to foreign policy yesterday. >> from kim kardashian to gary johnson? we just got lighter as far as news goes. >> gary johnson says that him not knowing where aleppo is actually an asset. >> the fact that someone can dot the is or cross the ts allows them to put our military in harm's way. it's because we elect people that can dot the is and cross ts on these names and geographic locations as opposed to the
underlying philosophy which is let's stop getting involved in these regime changes. >> you don't know where canada is so that makes you a better leader? >> sarah palin would be the vice president by that standard. >> we were shocked. >> she was killed for much less than he has said. >> we were shocked that sarah palin didn't know there was one germany. >> just the general sense that she -- >> she ends up now being kissinger compared to gary johnson. >> joe, that's sad. that's depressing. >> the difference is she was trying to make up for the gaps in her knowledge. he's bragging about his. maybe that's a man thing. i don't know. >> the argument again is if you know the leaders' names it means you'll invade the country. johnson's running mate bill weld will not withdraw support from the ticket this year but weld says he'll spend the remaining
five weeks of the campaign focused on attacking donald trump trying to put the republican ticket in "third place." governor weld spoke highly of secretary clinton and said she would make a fine president. >> governor weld has got to get off of this clown car. >> he's too smart to play this game with gary johnson. >> still ahead this morning, steve schmidt, chuck todd and frank bruni all join the conversation. we're back in a moment. if you're told you have cancer,
>> hillary clinton had a private server in her home that had classified information on it about drone strikes, e-mails from the president of the united states were on there. >> you don't get to decide the rights and wrongs of this. we have a justice system that does that. republican fbi director did an investigation and concluded -- >> we're moving on now.
250,000 people, 100,000 of them children -- >> that's absolutely false. you know that. >> all right. time now for the must read opinion pages. we have two very different pieces. one by joe and then we're going to talk about syria. >> you say a bad one and a good one. >> no. this is what you write in "the washington post." if i was a clinton supporter and average citizen i would be very afraid. given trump's behavior over the past week and month and year, trump should be down 20 points by now. instead, americans seem to be buckling up for one more month of chaos, crude comments, leaked democratic documents, the appeasement of russian barbarism and ill prepared debate performances and worst presidential choice in u.s. history. this week will show trump falling further behind in the polls. if the past is prolog, expect
him to climb his way back into the race. trump appears to be the default position for millions of voters. and if he stops working every day to drive them away over the next four weeks, trump could still be elected the 45th president of the united states. >> it's hard for you to say, mika. >> mark halperin, it's funny -- there's almost this collective sigh of relief from the elites and influencers over the spate of polls -- we knew which way the polls would go because he had another bad week. he had a khan week. it always happens. he insults people. he does -- he makes one mistake after another. he teams to do it in threes or fives or tens. his poll numbers go down. he gets out of their way and they inch back. it happened after the mexican judge from indiana and after the
khans when they said he'll never recover from attacking a gold star mom and i expect it will happen from a poor debate performance and just a horrible week after that. that's my argument. i guess the question is does he have enough time to inch his way back? >> well, that's the problem for him. there are three things that make the -- there are three factors that go against the reality that you stated, when he does well, he moves back up and makes it a competitive race. one is he's still not got a ceiling that's high enough to win this. he still when he gets close he's within a couple points but he's not at 47% nationally or in the battleground states which i at it will take to win. gary johnson's collapse allows hillary clinton a bigger margin of error and the final thing truch gets close but he'll have to be ahead in florida, ohio and pennsylvania if he can then start to find a way to get to 270 electoral votes. even when he surges to within a point or two of her, he's still
not in position to claim here's how i am going to win 270. he needs to come back and get closer if he's going to win, but he's never proven he can actually pass her and that's essential if he's going to have a chance. >> why does he always seem to come back? why is he given such a huge margin of error by voters who say i'll never vote for him and two weeks later maybe they look at hillary and say maybe i will vote. >> it seems the two pillars, foundation of his candidacy, there are two of them. one is change agent. having less to do with donald trump than a desperate need, a cry for change among people. and the other is the clinton candidacy itself. those are two pillars. foundation of donald trump's candidacy. i don't think he gets above 44% or 45% though. he can't win with that. >> one thing he can't have is a week after this next debate like he had after the last debate. hillary clinton set a trap for him when she brought up miss
universe. he walked into the trap and the trap closed on his head and for five days slammed his head into that trap. you can't have another week like that and expect to win. >> he has to hold serve in the second debate. then he's got to stay out of his way in the weeks that follow. >> it's going to be key. and other news that may break in the past couple weeks how he handles it. >> he's not in a position because of his debate performance. he's in this position because of his behavior every second from -- >> after the debate. >> right. i don't think a good debate performance turns this around. i think it's what you said. he collapsed or not collapsed but he lost ground because of everything he did from the nana seconana nanosecond that it ended. i should have performed the way my advisers told me to and next
time you'll see a better performance. he said he won. he tauted ridiculous polls and into a fight over weight for five days. >> we have global events still happening while we watch this show. i'll call it a show. john mccain writes in "the wall street journal" and let's just end with this. stop assad now or expect years of war. the collapse of the most recent cessation of hostilities is not surprising. it failed. as did the obama administration's previous efforts to work with russia in syria and there appears to be no plan b. any alternative approach must begin with grounding mr. assad's airpower. if russia continues its indiscriminate bombing, we should make clear that we will take steps to hold its aircraft at greater risks at the same time we must provide more robust military assistance to the vetted syrian opposition groups that are fighting the regime. now is the time for a new
strategy including the necessary military component. this will undoubtedly entail greater costs but the alternative is far from cost free. it is the continuation for years and years of terror, tragedy, slaughter, refugees, and a war in the heart of the middle east that will continue to threaten the u.s. and destabilize the world. >> john mccain caught a lot of, you know what, for iraq. he's been dead on on syria from the very beginning. he's been warning of the increased costs from the very beginning. he said you can go in now and take care of it now or it's going to get more difficult later. >> there are difficult choices but there are obvious choices now including the ones he put out there. i feel a worry that nothing will happen because through this election nothing is going to happen. >> the problem is the choices were not so difficult at a given
time but we keep -- we have a white house and we have a world that keeps allowing the slaughter to continue day in and day out and it gets more difficult by the day. so when people come on here and whine about how tough it is, well, they have built their own prison. it's the syrian people who were dying and being starved to death right now. children. they're being told surrender and you can eat again. it is the russians. it is vladimir putin who is helping starve the children day by day, hour by hour in syria while we do absolutely nothing. if barack obama thinks that he can have a wing in his presidential library that talks about how he is a peace maker and he did the exact opposite of bush and cheney, he's
delusional. this, i won't say holocaust, but whatever you want to call it, this crime against humanity is going to follow his legacy for a hundred years. he will never escape it. >> sadly for his legacy, it is going to be in large part in terms of foreign relations, it's going to be syria. the say way iraq is george w. bush's legacy. >> i would just ask at a moment like this, what is the point of these global organizations? this moment in history if not now, if not with syria, what's the point of having any of those groups? >> what is the point of having the united nations? what is the point of having nato? what is the point of having -- like you said, the arab league. what is the point of any of these organizations. you're exactly right. this has been a human tragedy of biblical scale unfolding before our eyes in horrific slow motion
for five years. now russia is in the middle east for the first time since the early 1970s and they are starving children to death. >> bombing children. bombing children. >> they are bombing children. they are killing children. it is barbaric what they are doing every day and the white house and the west does nothing. does the president really think he'll be able to blame george w. bush for what's going on in syria? for five years? because if so, he's delusional about that too. history will be so brutal to him for everything he has failed to do in syria. >> all right. coming up, we'll speak live with trump campaign manager kellyanne conway and hillary clinton's campaign chairman john podesta. >> by the way, hillary clinton, i can't speak for donald trump,
because he seems to be sort of impressed by vladimir putin, if hillary clinton is elected president, this will be taken care of. i cannot believe i'm saying that as a republican. if hillary clinton is -- let me speak to another republican. if hillary clinton is elected president on day one, this will change. >> i think so. >> i have no doubt. >> totally agree. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." , maybe let's play up the digital part. but it's a manufacturing job. yeah, well ge is doing a lot of cool things digitally to help machines communicate, might want to at least mention that. i'm building world-changing machines. with my two hands. does that threaten you? no! don'be silly. i'm just, uh, going to go to chop some wood. with that? yeah we don't have an ax. or a fireplace. good to be prepared. could you cut the bread?
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>> donald trump has filed over 100 pages of financial disclosure which is what the law requires. the american people can review that. senator, he's going to release his tax returns when the audit is over. >> if you can't meet the nixon standard -- >> the people at home cannot understand either one of you when you speak over each other. i would please ask you to wait until the other is finished. >> boy, that's terrible. >> coming up on "morning joe," rating the vice presidential debate. >> i thought at times, and i like the guy, kaine was a little desperate there jumping in all the time always trying to get his points. he didn't wait his turn. he had all of the points. >> no one draws a visual quite like chris matthews.
we'll bring in steve schmidt and chuck todd straight ahead and michael chertoff served in president bush's cabinet and now backing hillary clinton. "morning joe" is coming right back. good thing geico offers affordable renters insurance. with great coverage it protects my personal belongings should they get damaged, stolen or destroyed. [doorbell] uh, excuse me. delivery. hey. lo mein, szechwan chicken, chopsticks, soy sauce and you got some fortu have a good one. ah, these small new york artments... protect your belongings. let geico help you with renters insurance.
you're at the top of your game.. at work or at play, you're unstoppable. nothing can throw you off track. oh hey, she's cute. nice going man. things are going great for you. you've earned a night out. good drinks, good friends. yeah, we can go ahead and call this a good night. wait, is that your car? uh oh. not smart. yeah, i saw that coming.
i can't believe that governor pence would defend the claim we should create a deportation force. i can't imagine how you can defend that. six times tonight i have said to governor pence i can't imagine how you can defend your running mate's position on one issue after the next. and in all six cases, he's refused to defend his running mate's -- >> don't put words in -- >> and yet he's asking everybody to vote for somebody that he cannot defend. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 5th. joining the conversation, we have "the new york times" columnist frank bruni, former mccain campaign strategist steve schmidt and in richmond, virginia, managing editor of bloomberg politics, john heilemann is with us. >> you've had experience with presidential debates.
>> heard you say last night talking about the whole joe thing and why she asked if she could call joe biden joe, it was not -- >> she just couldn't get it right. she just couldn't -- she said the name biden. it came out as o'biden. it was at that moment of the campaign the last thing we need to do is begin the vice presidential debate with her mispronouncing biden. someone had the idea of call him joe? i can do that? yes, do that, please. she did fine in that debate. >> you were looking at your watch during the debate, weren't you? >> i remember sitting in the room with nicole wallace and a couple other people and three minutes in she's doing great. we got about 87 minutes 10 seconds left. >> what about last night's debate, john heilemann? mike pence, tim kaine, what
surprised you? >> i think what surprised me first was how overprepared and overscripted and hyperactive tim kaine seemed for the debate. he came out too hot doing theater criticism. mike pence's style and demeanor were impressive. on substance the sight of mike pence running away from donald trump repeatedly either explicitly running away saying he didn't say things he did say or laying out policies on russia and syria that donald trump wants no part of was quite striking. i agree the consensus at the table that pence did for the republican ticket what the republican ticket would hoped would get done. >> he definitely did. we have john podesta and kellyanne conway and michael chertoff coming up this hour.
mike pence was asked about the recent "the new york times" report that showed donald trump could avoided paying taxes for 18 years and that turned into a line of attack for senator tim kaine. >> he actually built a business. those tax returns that came out publicly this week that shows he faced tough times 20 years ago. but like any business, he used net operating loss. we have a tax code, senator, that actually is designed to encourage entrepreneurship. >> why won't he release his tax returns? >> we're answering the question about the business thing. >> i do want to come back on this. >> his tax return showed he went through a very difficult time but used the tax code the way it's supposed to be used and did it brilliantly. >> he said if i run for president, i will absolutely release my taxes. he has broken his first promise.
second, he stood on the stage last week and when hillary said you haven't been paying taxes, he said that makes me smart. smart not to pay for our military. smart not to pay for veterans. smart not to pay for teachers and those that do pay for it are stupid. the last thing i want to ask governor pence, governor pence had to give donald trump his tax returns to show he was qualified to be vice president. donald trump must give the american public his tax returns to show that he's qualified to be president and he's breaking his promise. >> frank, whether you're a politician or a "new york times" columnist or talk show host, you have got to be yourself. you have got to be who you are and when you stop doing that, bad things happen.
we've had tim kaine sitting there many times. i'm always asked who is somebody in washington that is a model senator. he's a democrat. i don't agree with him all the time but tim kaine is a pro. what did you see? >> he seemed nervous and desperate at times. i think it got worse in a sense because mike pence was unflappable. i found mike pence's performance mesmerizing. tim kaine threw everything at him there was to throw but he never once seemed remotely rattled. he was happy talking about a donald trump who i did not recognize, that's not the donald trump that's been campaigning for several months.
it was such a controlled and in a weird way self-deceptive performance that i was mesmerized. >> this is the one debate where if i were on the campaign i would say you guys just be you. go after him. be tim kaine and address the issues with mike pence. but instead there was all this sort of campaign prepared lines and zingers and it made him -- it made him look smaller. >> right from the very beginning with the opening statement where he said the you're fired versus you're hired. anybody that's paying attention to the campaign has heard that line a dozen times. >> you wrote this piece on sunday entitled "donald trump's pathetic fraternity." it's in front of me. there's a new one. in the face of kaine's grilling, pence denied that trump made statements that he inarguably this changed the subject to
hillary clinton's failings. s with his minimalist speaking style, pence drew attention to kaine, pence's unflappablety. it's hard to think of a vice presidential candidate in modern history who has gone so far against his supposed nature and his proclaimed values in the service of his running mate. on tuesday night, pence rewarded trump's insane tactics with a debate performance that reflected fierce determination and the thorough preparation that trump had skipped. good piece. >> and willie, i saw somebody last night on chris' show wrap it up by saying that actually looked like kaine was channeling trump. the constant interruptions and
fanatic approach. that's not who he was. >> he was programmed with one liners but also with arguments to throw at pence. you could see kaine becoming increasingly frustrated when the punches weren't landing because pence knocked them away so easily and kept his tone even. that's style. on substance, i could give you five things right now where tim kaine turned and said what about this thing that trump said? you can go to expansion of nuclear weapons and let nato fall apart and pence simply said he didn't say that and push forward. >> you can tell at some point in his life somebody put the ronald reagan there you go again action figure chip right in the back of his brain. right behind the ear. pence has been using that chip now for 30 years. that's what he was channeling last night. >> i think from a tv performance
side clearly mike pence won. everything we said about him is completely true. i think the indelible image that comes out of this debate a couple days from now and i say this debate will not be long remembered. we won't be talking about it. it is not going to move a single vote. the indelible image if there is one out of it is mike pence shaking his head no pretending that donald trump didn't say these things that not only does he know that donald trump actually said, most of the american people know that donald trump has said. it's gotten so much attention. i thought it was odd. when you see mike pence, he's a decent man. he's a good man. you know he's offended by some of this stuff. it's almost like this is a psychological device that he's using to pretend it's not happening. when you have the debate prep say they're going to come after mike pence on these statements that donald trump has made, what's interesting was -- i wouldn't have thought it would be in the repertoire of possible
responses to pretend it never happened. it did happen. and as you go forward now into this next debate, what we've seen is an inability of donald trump to stop chasing the ball. she throws it out there. he's going to go get it. he has a psychological inability to not respond to attacks on his business. i said yesterday, i have a black lab. i love him to death. you put a tennis ball up. he gets a look in his eye. he's going for the ball. and this is the fundamental question of temperament. you saw in that debate last night the preview of closing argument of the clinton campaign. the clinton campaign is increasingly going to say that donald trump is unfit psychologically, temperamentally. he cannot be trusted with america's nuclear arsenal. and you saw the preview of that and intensity of that attack is going to pick up very significantly in the following weeks. >> pence took pencing to a whole
new level. he was really good at it last night. usually it's hallow and wooden. while campaigning for his wife on monday -- >> what are you talking about? >> the term. he chills for trump in a way that is so painful that you get freaked out. i'm explaining myself. last night he was good at it. it was almost scary how good he was at it. >> there are things that pence was never going to be able to defend. and trump can't defend. the muslim ban. what he said about mexicans. what he said about the chan what he said about the mexican judge who actually a hoosier. there's just no way. what he said about vladimir putin. there's no way mike pence. >> he pretended that trump never said that. to steve's point and as people look at what was said on that stage versus reality, pence's performance will look worse and
worse but in real time last night it was extraordinary. tim kaine was running with a recognizable hillary clinton. mike pence was running with unrecognizable donald trump. >> john heilemann, we're about to play a clip. maybe you can help us out before we get to the clip. everything all right with bill clinton? mind, everything? >> come on. stop. >> how is bill clinton doing right now? this obamacare thing where it's the worst thing ever. it's crazy. what's going on there? >> i'm afraid at that hour in richmond, virginia, i have no access to dr. sigmund freud. not sure i can answer that question with great certainty. what was said earlier on the show and i can't disagree there are deep seeded feelings that bill clinton has that are not wholly positive and he's acted
out on some occasions in the past. he's been relatively disciplined and out of the headlines for this campaign. you knew at some point something like this was going to happen. now it has. >> it has happened. >> while campaigning for his wife on monday, former president bill clinton described obamacare as "the craziest thing in the world." >> my god. >> here it is. >> the people who are getting killed in this deal are small business people and individuals who make just a little too much to get any of the subsidies. so you have this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care and then the people that are out there busting it sometimes 60 hours a week wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. it's the craziest thing in the world. >> just for the record, he said it was the craziest thing in the world twice. people are busting it. the hard workers. the people playing by the rules. the people who are working around the clock for their
family. they're the ones who are getting screwed the worst by this barack obama thing. it's craziest thing in the world. i seriously, it's one of the most incredible things i've seen. >> it's interesting to listen to them try to walk it back. as you said, there was nothing ambiguous about what he said. >> here's bill clinton trying to walk it back in ohio. >> she believes that it's important to help families who still have not been able to find affordable insurance. look, the affordable health care act did a world of good and 50 something efforts to repeal it that republicans have staged were a terrible mistake. for the first time in our history we provide insurance to more than 90% of our people but there is a group of people, mostly small business owners and employees who make just a little too much money to qualify for medicaid expansion.
>> he basically said right there it's better than a warm bucket of spit. but that's about all you can say about obamacare. i cannot believe this is happening. >> usually when they film hostage videos they don't have people in the background. that is interesting. i think that president obama called bill clinton the secretary of explaining stuff. what's remarkable about that is the incompetent of republicans in trying to attack obamacare and you saw bill clinton absolutely attack obamacare on point, directly, more effectively than any republican did on any of the 1 million debates that occurred during the primary season or the 1 million debates that occurred in the election before that. and that is fundamentally the failing of obamacare.
it's very difficult for him to walk it back and it also when you look at the critique he delivered the other day, first time before the hostage video, it has the added benefit of being absolutely true. >> listen, what a great republican argument and people working the hardest, the people playing by the rules and busting it. his words busting it for 60 hours a week, they're the ones shut out of the system. that's the craziest thing in the world. >> i'm surprised a trump ad hasn't been made. josh earnest asked about this at the white house yesterday. he said you would have to ask president clinton what he meant by that. they're not trying to make nice on that. from bill clinton's point of view, strategically thinking he's trying to get his wife elected on the legacy of president obama. a poor idea to settle a grudge at this moment a month out of the election. >> gosh, you think, willie? yeah. >> what's he doing?
>> i actually think that bill clinton calls obama care the craziest thing in the world. it's the second craziest thing. the first is for him to attack president obama's chief accomplishment. i don't know. it makes no sense whatsoever. obviously a ridiculous and self-defeating thing for president clinton to have done. it requires some kind of psychological interetation because there is no political, tactical or strategic grounds on which this makes sense whatsoever. >> did we show donald trump's reaction to that? just show it for one. just look at donald trump coming in here. trump is almost kind of like are you kidding me? he's reading it off the prompter. did this really happen? maybe he's not a very good surrogate.
i don't think so. president bill clinton came out and told the truth about obamacare. he's absolutely trashed president obama's signature legislation. can you imagine what he went through after making that statement? he went through hell. honestly, there have been many nights when he's gone through hell with hillary. >> you didn't need that part. awkward. >> stepping on his own good moment. >> there he goes again. still ahead this morning, huge guests to get to. he once prosecuted the clintons as lead republican counsel on the whitewater committee but now michael chertoff has endorsed hillary clinton for president. he joins us live. we'll get trump campaign manager kellyanne conway's tack on mike pence's debate performance along with hillary clinton's chairman
john podesta on how tim kaine did last night. we'll be right back. your insance company told you to look at page five on your policy. did it say "great news. you're covered!" on page five? no. it said, "blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah..." the liberty mutual app with coverage compass™ makes it easy to know what you're covered for and what you're not. liberty stands with you. liberty mutual insurance.
>> or instead of you violating the constitution by blocking people based on their national origin rather than on whether they're dangerous. >> that's absolutely false. >> joining the table now, nbc news political director moderator of "meet the press," chuck todd. >> good morning. >> it was pence's night but he didn't tell the truth a lot, right? >> i think pence won that 90 minutes. the question is now there's a whole bunch of contradictions and he's going to get caught either not defending trump enough, maybe trump is going to realize that and not be happy abouthat. or denying trump said certain things that trump did say. >> donald trump is definitely not happy with him. trust me. >> you know this? i wouldn't be surprised if trump is not happy knowing in the past he doesn't -- he believes people that work for him should defend
him. >> you can have a defending speech of trump and one iota of negative and trump will not be happy with it. can you imagine? >> i'm curious. >> are you saying because pence didn't defend him enough because pence did a better job than him? >> all of those things. >> john heilemann -- there's no heilemann. >> we're getting john podesta next. >> but, willie, there have been some reports that insiders saying trump is not happy that pence is getting rave reviews and people like "the wall street journal" are saying it should be pence at the top of the ticket and not trump. >> everyone i was talking to during and after the debate in and around trump world was happy. they thought pence did a good job. i didn't hear those specific reports. those are people working on assumptions that things they know about donald trump in the past may apply to last night. they were happy. they think mike pence won the debate. >> let's go to richmond right
now and talk to hillary clinton's campaign chairman john podesta. we'll start with the very tough question, i hope you can forgive us. who won the debate last night? >> well, look, i think that donald trump lost and that was fairly clear. i just got in on the conversation. look, i think tim kaine did great job. he defended hillary. he laid out clear plans. he kept putting trump's own words to mike pence and mike pence never defended donald trump. he made a kind of a little attempt on his business practices, his loss of a billion dollars but he didn't even defend his failure to release his tax returns. i think time after time he just kept shaking his head. it was sort of surprising. you couldn't tell whether he was shaking his head because he didn't believe donald trump could say such things or he was trying to suggest he hadn't. of course we know he had.
>> yeah. but the problem is that all of the optics and the tone of this debate didn't work well for tim kaine. i mean, is that fair to say, john podesta? >> i think tim came in with strategic mission to lay out clearly his plans. i think he did a very good job with that. he was aggressive from the start. and to challenge mike pence to defend donald trump. mike pence didn't do it. i don't think he changed the course of the dynamic of the race in any way. i think that what we saw was a guy who could, you know, sit back, lay back a little bit, seemed like a reasonably nice guy but didn't defend the top of the ticket. >> chuck, tell me what i'm trying to say. then you can take it to podesta. it almost seems like hillary
clinton and tim kaine have this sort of impossible scenario. what do you do when you list a bunch of truths and then the person you're debating goes, no, that's not true. with donald trump, he just was all over the map to the point where hillary clinton was, like, where do you even begin? again with untruths and things that defy logic in politics. this is like nothing we've seen before. last night tim kaine made great points. told the truth and had a guy who was calm, cool, resolute and said, no. what do you do with that? >> i get the strategy that mike pence was doing. john, you used -- it was interesting what you said. first thing you said is you didn't say anything about the campaign between kaine and pence. sounds like you believe that pence won the 90-minute exchange or made a better presentation or impression than tim kaine but you feel as if tim kaine did a lot to attack donald trump, is
that what you're trying to say here? >> what i'm trying to say is governor pence was smooth. he seemed sort of likable. he didn't get the job done. the president's job is to go in and try to defend the top of the ticket. mike pence looked more like he was looking at 2020 than 2016. he kind of walked away. he did backflips on russia. he didn't sound at all like what donald trump has been saying on the campaign trail. he made a whole new policy up on syria which embraced hillary clinton's approach to what's going on in syria. so i think that tim got the job done. he came in. he was strong. he laid out clearly more concrete plans on criminal justice reform and immigration reform and on the economy. we came back to the fact that there for more trickle down economics clinton/kaine ticket is for building an economy that works for everyone and not just
people at the top. i thought he did a good job last night. >> take us behind the scenes a little bit. what was secretary clinton's reaction on monday when you showed her the clip of president clinton in flint, michigan, attacking the affordable care act says it's the craziest thing in the world and small business people are getting killed. how did she react to her husband saying those things about president obama's signature legislation. >> i was in richmond. you know, you'll have to ask somebody else that question. >> you were lucky enough not to hear that conversation. >> look, look, look, if you look at the context of what he actually said, he was saying that the affordable care act had done a lot of good things and it now covers 20 million people. >> that was part of his statement. >> what about the craziest thing in the world thing? >> he said, look, there are still some problems that we need to solve and he was talking specifically about something
hillary has talked about on the road which is make sure that we make insurance affordable and limit out of pocket costs. she suggested tax relief for that. >> i just have to interrupt you. president clinton made the republican argument against obamacare. he said small business people are getting killed. their premiums are doubling. coverage cut in half in some cases. does secretary clinton share president clinton's view of the affordable care act? >> secretary clinton believes the affordable care act is doing great things making sure you can't deny coverage with pre-existing conditions and can't discriminate against women, et cetera. we need to build on it. as i noted, she said that there are things that need improvement including lowering the price of prescription drugs, protecting people from excessive out of pocket costs. she thinks it's been a success. we need to continue it. we need to build on it.
i think that's president clinton's position as well. that's what he really believes. his colorful language notwithstanding. >> okay. thank you. greatly appreciate it. >> thanks, john. >> okay. chuck todd, craziest thing in the world. bill clinton is the explainer in chief. and he explained the failings of obamacare better than any republican did over the 38 debates they had in the republican primary. >> in a normal presidential race, this could be huge and a big thing for the republican ticket. the problem is that donald trump has never had -- he on health care has so many different views and never wanted to prosecute this case. you know where this matters a lot? pat toomey. they are dying to make the check argument and things like that. this opens the door in a way.
bill clinton will become a star in a bunch of senate committee ads is what i think. >> that is a great, great insight. if i were on the campaign trail as a congressman, i would be talking about this every day. you know what, the press keep attacking us for trying to repeal obamacare, this is what bill clinton said. >> you have to give john podesta credit. he couldn't overspin. he couldn't sit there and admit that bill clinton was helpful and he couldn't sit there and admit that mike pence lost the debate. >> chuck, thank you so much for being here. we appreciate it. straight ahead, we'll hear from the other side as kellyanne conway, campaign manager for donald trump joins us next on "morning joe." there's nothing more important than your health. or the freedom to choose what doctor you want to see. so if you're on medicare, consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan,
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>> from the fullness of the heart, the mouth speaks. when donald trump says women should be punished or mexicans are rapists or criminal or john mccain is not a hero, he's showing you he is. >> senator, you whipped out that mexican thing again. >> can you defend it? >> there are criminal aliens in this country, tim, who have come into this country illegally who are perpetrating violence and taking american lives. he also said and many of them are good people.
you keep leaving that out of your quote. >> so joining us now, campaign manager for donald trump, kellyanne conway. good to have you back on the show. >> good morning. >> i'll ask you the same question i started with john podesta, who won the debate last night? >> that's an easy one. governor pence. >> podesta said the same thing. it was easy. >> it was governor pence. the way you know governor pence won the debate is one of two reasons. you either watched it or you listened to everybody last night and this morning say, you know, these vice presidential debates don't really matter. not going to move the needle. that's how you know mike pence won. he also came incredibly prepared. i thought mike pence was tough without getting in the mud with tim kaine. it's the job of the presidential nominee to take the case to the top of the ticket. in my view, governor pence did a nice job taking on hillary clinton's record but he mentioned his name 70 times. tim kaine mentioned donald trump's name 160 times.
it was like he had a tic. >> let me ask you about some chatter last night. donald trump wasn't happy with mike pence because mike pence did so well. >> not true. his last tweet last night was how excited he was and how proud of him he was. i talked to mr. trump during the debate several time. i think the one thing to remember is that as ronald reagan always said, personnel is policy. donald trump promised as president to surround himself with the best people. the first exercise in judgment in leadership by donald j. trump after he became the republican nominee was his selection of his vice presidential running mate. you see it was just a fantastic pick. >> you said even yourself last week after donald trump's debate that you would have liked to have him seen more prepared with comebacks in terms of preparation for the debate. mike pence was prepared.
will that be a lesson you'll pass onto donald trump? let's prepare more and get ready for the next one? >> i'm not sure i said he should prepare more for comebacks. i said he didn't get credit for being gracious and use comebacks he had instead of worrying about if he was pulling punches with hillary clinton or if she was happy that he called her secretary clinton. i agree this way. you saw with mike pence last night and you will see with donald trump in future debates, when they stick to the issue set, we win. that's why tim kaine and all of the paid advertising that you hear out of the democratic party and super pacs is anti-trump. it's amazing to me one of the least popular issues that hillary clinton and tim kaine talk about that is featured in advertising is obamacare. the signature domestic achievement. tim kaine has voted for it several times. they don't want to talk about it because they're stuck. they're stuck between are you going to carry it forward. did it work well?
why do many americans feel like premiums were raised and quality was decreased. you know major insurers are pulling out claiming billions of dollars in losses or satisfy sanders voters and go toward single payer now that it's revealed that she insulted sanders voters in a situation with donors. >> donald trump never made the argument you just made it which is depth of understanding and facts. is he preparing differently for this one based on his performance in the last debate? >> we prepare constantly. he has gotten very excited about the format. the town hall format is a sweet spot for him. he's with voters every day. these rallies i hear that the size of the crowd doesn't matter. go out to one of these rallies and you'll feel differently. he draws crowds that nobody has ever drawn unless you've had a musical instrument.
>> so how does he adapt from that where he's up behind a microphone and speaking to a huge arena in, say, colorado and being in a town hall format where we have awkward moments. george h.w. bush looking at his watch. it seems bad things happen in these debates. >> i'm not sure the town hall format is great for hillary clinton either. she seemed more comfortable behind the podium. we've seen her with people. that doesn't seem like her most comfortable arena. donald trump in terms of health care, it's a huge issue that's been left on the table in these debates. we've got now president bill clinton as our best surrogate and thinking of having him in the spin room with us in st. louis. also, i just want to mention that donald trump does say that his plan for health care reform would be the ability to have your insurance be portable, to buy it across state lines like you would buy car insurance for example, also to have health
savings accounts so that you own that piece of your health care and you can manage it the way you would anything else. that gives people certain responsibility and ownership. >> we have to go. could you give kellyanne some advice just in case her candidate -- >> she does not need my advice. >> just in case her candidate accidentally wandered in front of a camera like john mccain did? >> i don't think you need my advice. i studied you over the years. i know you're in this shrunken group of debate prep. how are you counseling him to control his impulses? >> he should be tough but fair. >> on a woman that's gained a few points? you can't be tough to be tough against a woman that's gained a few moments. >> of course i haven't. in terms of debating a woman i would tell donald trump don't do what tim kaine did last night which is to look so borish, he was interrupting and ignoring a female moderator.
>> on your candidate's impulse to counterpunch, how are you picking his targets to punch? >> he's best defending himself when it's defending policy and he can take the case to hillary clinton and keep this election depersonalized. and keep this election what it's always been about. do you want as americans the past or the future? typical politician or successful businessman. >> do you feel like he'll do that? there's been a lot of frustration from people close to him post debate he wasted three or four days on miss universe. do you get a sense he understands that's a lost week and after this debate i guess the margin for error is really sort of tightening up? >> what he does understand and says all the time is the best donald trump is the one that comes out into these rallies and gives a policy speech also
peppered with news of the day. for example, this week out west, he's been talking about how he made a comeback in the 1990s and this country needs a comeback. you need someone that can preside over such a comeback. when he sticks to jobs and trade and immigration and defeating isis and social security -- >> i was just asking. we got to go because alex is yelling at me. does donald trump understand he may have misstepped this past week? >> what he understands is that he's best when he talks about -- when he talks about hillary clinton or her record. and frankly, this is also, if the campaign is about you and not about us, the people, then it's not really your highest and best use as a candidate. >> amazing. kellyanne, thank you very much. >> thank you so much. we appreciate it. can't believ that you and podesta and everybody are awake this morning. >> who says we're awake? we're here. >> still ahead this hour, former
homeland security secretary michael chertoff has endorsed hillary clinton. he joins us live for an exclusive interview. we're back in just a moment. gary, gary, gary... i am proud of you, my man. making simple, smart cash back choices... with quicksilver from capital one. you're earning unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere. like on that new laptop. quicksilver keeps things simple, gary. and smart, like you! and i like that. i guess i am
pretty smart. don't let that go to your head, gary. what's in your wallet? ii'd look her right in that fat ugly face of hers.age. she's a slob. she ate like a pig. a person who's flat chested is very hard to be a 10. does she have a good body? no. does she have a fat [expletive]? absolutely. do you treat women with respect?
joining us now from capitol hill, former secretary of homeland security, now executive chairman of the chertoff group, michael chertoff. he has endorsed hillary clinton for president. mike barnicle, take it. >> seeing as how you endorsed hillary clinton for president, do you hope or believe there will be a difference in syria with a clinton administration versus an obama administration? >> i do. i think that secretary clinton advocated for a no-fly zone. president obama did not accept that advice. i think that was a big mistake and led to the crisis we see in europe now and horrible war
crimes being committed by syrians and russians in aleppo. having talked to her and having observed her, i think she would be frankly much tougher than president obama on these issues. >> how specifically do you think she would be different? do you think she would enforce no fly zones and some of the things she talked about in the past and are those viable now 5 1/2 years in? >> i think we're at a stage now where we'll have to look at the landscape and see how viable it is. we've clearly lost a lot of time and a lot of lives and we've seen a tremendous crisis in europe ensue because of what we failed to do. at least let's not make the problem worse. let's not keep digging. i do think her vision of being tougher in terms of rolling back isis and tougher with the russians is a dose of what we need right now. >> mr. chernoff, mr. trump maintains that america is less safe now than it has ever been since barack obama became president. do you believe that? >> we're a lot safer than we were on september 11th.
we continue to have a good structure in place to protect us from people coming in to carry out terrorist attacks. there's no doubt that the situation has deteriorated in the last couple of years with the rise of isis, the increase of foreign fighters and we see that particularly in europe, but we've seen some of the inspired attacks here in the united states. some of that involves social media being used to recruit and train, some of it involves just people who on their own affiliate themselves with isis. so we are beginning to see the kind of multiplication of low level attacks which we now see a lot of in europe. >> nicole wallace? >> good morning, it's nicole wallace. i wonder if you are surprised that with people like yourself and former secretary bob gates and i think there were 50 former bush officials in the national security apparatus who have endorsed secretary clinton that she hasn't opened up a bigger lead against donald trump,
particularly on this question of national security. i know she has an advantage, but are you surprised her lead isn't larger on the question of national security and foreign policy? >> nicole, i'm not a political pundant. i don't know how arguments translate into leads or how accurate polling is. what i do know is that for people who really care about security, we're at a time when there's a lot of risk out there. it's not just terrorism, it's a very aggressive russia, it's a more aggressive china. what you need is the ability to make steady, good judgments. i think when people go in the voting booth and they reflect upon temperament and upon what people have said about our friends and what they've said about our adversaries, it's clear that secretary clinton has a sound approach to the world and, frankly, mr. trump seems to embrace our adversaries and is disdainful of our friends. >> let's build on that in our final moments, secretary chertoff.
you've endorsed secretary clinton. why not donald trump? what worries you? what's at stake? >> look, what worries me first of all is temperament. you can surround yourself with advisors but in the end as nicole knows, the president makes the decision. take this incident at 3:00 in the morning after the debate, the first debate with secretary clinton, why would you waste time pursuing an issue involving whether someone, miss universe, gained too much weight when there are other more important things to be talking about or tweeting about. the embrace of putin and suggesting that he's somehow admirable because he praises donald trump, that really reverses the kind of message we ought to be sending to our friends. i'll leave you with this. i do a lot of travel. i spend a lot of time overseas with our senior officials from our allies. they are worried about donald trump and whether he will be a reliable ally, and that's something we cannot afford to have given the current state of the world. >> michael chertoff, thank you
very much for joining us on "morning joe." >> good to be on. still ahead, we continue to follow hurricane matthew hammering the caribbean with its sights set on the u.s. evacuations underway in florida and south carolina. bill karins is tracking its path up the east coast and much more on the fast-moving developments in the presidential race. we're back in just a moment. second we're born. because, healthier doesn't happen all by itself. it needs to be earned every day. using wellness to keep away illness. and believing a single life can be made betteby millions oothers. as a health services and ny optum powers modern healthcare bconnecting every part of it. so while the wld keeps searching for healthier we're here to make healthier happen. ♪
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whatever argument he was making do you wish he had used different words than crazy, craziest. >> he's been dubbed the secretary of extending stuff but bill clinton seemed to explain stuff for the the wrong team when he called obamacare the craziest thing in the world. >> twice. he called it the craziest thing in the world twice. >> more on that story ahead. this is a tease. plus, proxy war. >> people work in the hardest -- bill clinton tells us that the people that are busting it the hardest. >> tim kaine, mike pence. >> it's the craziest thing in the world. >> we'll be right back. hey look, it's those guys.
bud: whoa, cute! shawn: shut-up. jess: are yogood to drive? shawn: i'm fine. [music] [police siren] jess: how many did you have? shawn: i should be fine. jess: you should be? officer: sir, go ahead and step out of the vehicle for me. shawn: yes, sir. bud: see ya, buddy. today, shawn's got a hearing, we'll see how it goes. good luck! so, it turns out buzzed driving and drunk driving, they're the same thing and it costs around $10,000. so not worth it.
we've been hearing so much about how you're a digital company, so you can see our confusion. ge is an industrial company that actually builds world-changing machines. machines that can also communicate digitally. like robots. did you build that robot? that's not a robot, that's my coworker earl. he builds jet engines with his human hands. what about that robot? that is a vending machine, ricky. john, give him a dollar.
now the economy, there's a fundamental choice for the american electorate. do you want a you're hired president and hillary clinton or you're fired president and donald trump. >> you're using that a lot. a lot of predubbed lines. >> when congressman pence was in ngress he was the chief cheerleader f the privatization of social security. >> governor pence, i'll give you an opportunity to respond. >> well, thanks, elaine. there they go again. >> okay. donald trump can't start a twitter war with miss universe without shooting himself in the foot. he loves dictators. he's got a personal mt. rushmore, vladimir putin, kim jong-un, saddam hussein. >> did you work on that for a long time because that had a lot of creative lines. >> good morning, wednesday, october 5th. with us is veteran columnist
mike barnacle. former communications director to george w. bush, nicole wallace working all night. and in richmond, virginia, managing editor of bloomberg, co-hosted with all due respect on 6:00 p.m., mark halpern. >> who won the debate? >> the american people. mike pence came in. he had a better night. all that does is give donald trump a chance now to come into the debate on sunday with some momentum, a little bit of momentum, but not on the defense. you can study what pence did that worked and now it's all up to donald trump. it doesn't affect the polls but i think pence won on the stage. >> cnn poll that came out last night actually taken -- came out this morning, taken last night found that mike pence actually
won the debate, 48% to 42%. neither at 10%. doesn't matter. willie, you go around and look at all of the people that were scoring this debate, all of the reporters that we've talked about who tweet, even those reporters seem to give it to kaine. >> i think that was mostly on style. >> pence, i mean. >> pence. >> most of it was on style. tim kaine came out of the gate, you could see he was jacked up, full of energy. >> jacked up. >> he was jumping on everything mike pence said. >> do you think he was -- do you think he had canseco beforehand shooting him up? steroids? >> that's a tough charge. we'll report that out. >> he was wired. >> over prepared. >> so that was -- that was the style of it. i thought if you were a trump supporter who was feeling a little shaky or you're someone on the fence who wanted to vote for trump but wasn't sure you could do it, you needed a soothing balm, it was mike pence last night.
so he that's the style. on the substance -- >> good point. >> -- tim kaine went after him and said donald trump said this. mike pence would certainly say, no, he didn't, when he did. you know, he wanted to ban muslims to come into the country. oh, come on, he didn't say that. you could see kaine getting frustrated. i'm going to stick everything trump ever said on you. nah, he didn't say that. >> it's a style southern thing. it's called the republican's war the never trumpers finally had somebody to cheer for last night. >> yeah. i mean, there was a moment where i thought, god, i wonder how many hearts across the country are breaking now that they couldn't just flip a coin and flip the ticket. pence was a very sort of reaganesque presence and, you know, we judge this the way we consume this entire election. we've watched every minute. we know that back in the primary pence endorsed cruz over trump. some people tuning in and certainly the people that they need to reach between today and election day, they weren't
following every twist and turn of the primary. i think if you're just tuning in, if the fall is when you have decided you're going to look it up and take in these candidates, i think what you took in in pence was a very presidential figure. now the little snag might be that everything he says sort of tried to brush off the fact that there is no defense of some of those statements of trump. but in terms of performance, i thought that pence turned in the much more steady presidential performance. >> mike barnacle, did pence help donald trump or did pence help pence? >> i think pence definitely helped pence, pence in 2020. he was calm. he was measured. i don't think the debate moved the meter for either candidate. i think pence, despite his commanding presence last night compared to the very interrupting tim kaine, i think pence might have a problem today and tomorrow with the clips,
where people will show what he said during the debate and then the proof. >> they're in brooklyn right now. mark halpern, some reports from inside the trump campaign that donald trump was not pleased. said tim kaine won -- or that mike pence won the debate but did not win it with donald trump but lost it with trump because he seemed to distance himself from donald trump time and again. any -- have you heard that at all? >> i asked about those reports. i'm not able to confirm them. i do think, you know, just an understanding the psychology of donald trump, you know, a lot of people are saying as nicole suggested why isn't pence at the top of the ticket? pence did better than trump. "the wall street journal" said that, trump should be studying pence. look, donald trump has to perform. i agree with mike, look at what pence said. we're a few days away at the sunday debate which matters more. trump has to rise to the occasion and say, hey, i'm not going to be threatened by the fact that people say pence did a
good job, pence didn't defend me. i need to learn from mike pence. what did he do that was effective and taking after hillary clinton and her record. we'll see if donald trump can do that because all that matters now is if trump wins the next debate. the pressure is on him. almost everybody in both parties i talked to say he must win this debate barring some october surprise, it's gigantic. trump must win this debate. that's a lot of pressure. >> we have a couple of other pretty big political stories to get 20. kaine's strategy was to force pence to defend the controversial statements and positions made by donald trump. >> i just want to talk about the tone that's set from the top. donald trump during his campaign has called mexicans rapists and criminals. he's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. i don't like saying that in front of my wife and my mother. look for donald trump apologizing to john mccain for saying he wasn't a hero. did donald trump apologize for donald trump calling women
slobs, pigs, disgusting. >> governor, it is his two minutes, please. >> did donald trump apologize for taking after somebody in a twitter war and making fun of her weight? did he apologize for saying african-americans are living in hell? did he apologize for saying president obama was not even a citizen of the united states? you will look in vain to see donald trump taking responsibility for anything and apologizing. >> he says ours is an insult-driven campaign. did you all just hear that? ours is an insult-driven campaign. i mean, to be honest with you, if donald trump had said all the things tt you said he said in the way you said he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. >> so let me ask willie quickly, nicole quickly, we've been saying everybody thinks, i think these vice presidential debates don't matter.
2004 george w. bush gave one of the worst debate performances in the history of modern american politics if you discount what barack obama did in 2012. >> tie. >> yeah, it was like a tie. but dick cheney dismembered -- nobody expected it, dismembered john edwards in the vice presidential debate. did you see a shift in the polls inside the camp? >> well, what was happening, we came out of our convention in '04 with a healthy bounce. we went into the first debate against john kerry and i think there was a seven point swing because of bush's performance. i remember walking -- i think i told you this. we were walking to the back of the bus with the newsweek poll numbers. it didn't go over well. cheney went out there and he prepped -- >> what did bush say when you told him -- >> he was always -- >> that he lost. >> said this on tv. what did bush say? >> we lost the post debate spin and i wound up to say, no, we didn't. he said, yeah, i gotcha. he knew.
he knew. and i said, i think kerry hughes called him the night after the debate and said, sir, that did not go as planned. but that was -- >> but cheney -- >> those are the good old days. cheney, there's a caricature of cheney, i understand why it exists. when he was seated at a table, they are so intimate. i think the reason kaine's strategy didn't work is in part because you're there and interrupting a moderator sitting closer than you and i doesn't go over well. >> you're so right. >> cheney was methodical and so against type. he speaks in a soft, grand fairly voice. b -- grandfatherly voice. he dismembered. >> dismembered. >> he stopped the bleeding and turned the momentum back in our direction. in the same way joe biden did just as expertly in 2012. >> so these things can make a difference. >> they can turn things back around.
they can hit pause on the bleeding. i'm not sure if pence did that, but i do think pence had a very strong performance last night. >> tim kaine was prepared for a debate at two standing podiums, not the sit -- >> right. >> in a stadium. >> engaged. >> mr. cleveland -- >> we're going to play more coming up. a couple of different things we need to get to. we'll have more vice presidential debate -- >> bill clinton. did you see bill clinton tape on obamacare? >> now just -- >> what is he doing? >> simmer down. simmer down. >> what did he say? >> he meant what he said. >> i don't like barack obama is what he said. >> that's exactly right. >> which he said privately over the years. he hasn't said it publicly. >> he didn't mean it. >> that whole thing was i do not like barack obama. >> while campaigning for his wife on monday since you all are talking about something that nobody has heard about yet so we're going to tell people the story and then you walk into the point. former president bill clinton described the obamacare as quote the craziest thing in the world.
>> this guy's amazing. >> just now? >> yesterday or the day before. >> tried to walk the comment back at a rally in ohio yesterday saying the law did a, quote, world of good. >> but i want to see the original quote. don't show me what donald trump said -- oh, yeah, donald trump responded, didn't he. >> just let -- yes. >> what about bill clinton say? >> here's what clinton said on monday followed by trump's attack. >> the people who are getting killed in this deal are small business people and individuals who made just a little too much to get into these subsidies so you've got this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care and then the people are out there busting it sometimes 60 hours a week wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. it's the craziest thing in the world. >> oh, my god! >> so this guy, he needs barack
obama more than anybody else in the world if he wants his wife to be elected president of the united states. if you can get one person to campaign for hillary clinton, it would be barack obama. and he just laid a gigantic hand grenade right at the feet of the campaign. >> and he did -- obama had to cancel an event, i believe, in florida because of the hurricane. >> yeah, right. >> he's going to cancel one in iowa because of the hurricane, too. come on, this guy -- this is -- mark halpern, this guy can be his wife's -- he was barack obama's best surrogate at the convention in charlotte in 2012, but time and time again he can be his wife's worst nightmare in south carolina making the racially charged comments in 2008. in new hampshire when everybody thought she was going to lose, he said, i can't make her
taller, i can't make her a better speaker, i can't make her better looking. he just -- it just -- at the worst possible time. this is really rough, isn't it? >> in little rock we call that a clinton classic. it's been a while since bill clinton has done something like this. pretty remarkable if you'll think about 2008 versus this campaign. he has largely stayed away from saying stuff like this. on one level he's saying what a lot of democrats are saying, the affordable care act isn't perfect, it can be fixed up. you can bet they'll be reviewing bill clinton's text and making sure he doesn't do stuff like that for the very reason you said. they need barack obama fully on board. they don't need stuff like that. >> as you might have guessed, donald trump seized on this. even in his cleanup yesterday where bill clinton tried to backpedal a little bit to say it's done a world of good. he again after apologizing made the point that there are a lot of small business owners out there twisting in the wind under this thing because they don't qualify for it. so i think this cuts to a core
deep feeling that bill clinton has had for a long time about barack obama. >> everybody has known, i mean, he certainly has told people close he does not like barack obama. he has never liked barack obama. you think he could keep it inside here until after the election. >> five more weeks. >> a month. >> a month. >> it's that voice. >> listen, by far, by far the two most important and effective surrogates for hillary clinton are barack and michelle obama. >> exactly. >> michelle obama was spectacular. >> she's incredible. >> the former president of the united states comes on bubbling with resentment over the obama presidency, clearly. >> what planet is that man on? >> donald trump was listening to bill clinton. >> oh, he was? >> here's what he said. >> of all people, maybe he's not a very good surrogate. i don't think so.
president bill clinton came out and told the truth about obamacare. he's absolutely trashed president obama's signature legislation. can you imagine what he went through after making that statement? he went through hell but, you know, honestly there have been many nights when he's gone through hell with hillary. >> oh, my gosh. >> he cannot even believe, he cannot believe his good luck here. >> he says all sorts of crazy stuff but you can see him reading that. guys get this right. the teleprompter stuff. you know, it's unbelievable. i don't know what to say on three hours of sleep. >> mike barnicle. explain that to us. >> clinton, why did he do that? >> how did he do that? >> you hear anecdotally from people within both administrations that the former president thinks that his
presidency, historical span will be measured as practically a nothingburg. he will be remembering more for monica lewinsky than anything else. barack obama has had osama bin laden. >> health care for all. >> he is barack obama. he is more effective on the stump than bill clinton ever was. >> how history will look at the two of them will be very interesting. >> his wife is trying to be president. keep it under wraps for month trying to get your wife elected president. >> michelle obama on the stump, i was watching -- >> fantastic. >> mark halpern, what have you heard from brooklyn? what have you heard from anybody that can explain what the hell happened? >> you know, when he gets out there, he muses the pop psychiatrist would say maybe he doesn't want her to win or as mike suggested -- >> you think? >> -- he doesn't want president obama to get as much credit. he wanted to pass universal
health care and didn't. i'll tell you, john poe ddesta close to the former president and the current one. i'm certain they're going to figure out how to keep stuff like this from happening. they're lucky it wasn't worse. the republicans are seizing on it. >> they're lucky -- how can it be worse? tear up a picture of the pope or barack obama? how could it be worse? >> you know -- you know -- you know he could have said something that would be breaking through more than this is. this is getting some attention, but this will be overwhelmed in the next 24, 48 hours by the debate. they just have to try to keep him in check it, as you said, for a couple more weeks. >> oh, my lord. >> keep him in check! the craziest thing in the world. the craziest thing in the world. >> he called obamacare the craziest thing in the world. >> how do you keep that in check? >> the thing that republicans have been at war with for seven
years. >> did he say that? >> the craziest thing in the world. >> i have to see it again. >> let's do it again. >> let's see that again. >> here is bill clinton trying to destroy his wife's campaign. >> small business people and individuals who make just a little too much to get any of these subsidies. you've got this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care and then the people who are out there busting it sometimes 60 hours a week wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. it's the craziest thing in the world. >> i mean, that could have been ripped out of a trump speech or a mike pence speech if you were trying to attack the legacy of barack obama as hillary clinton inherits the legacy of barack obama. there's no spinning out of that. they're doing their best last night. there's no way to spin that. >> he said twice it was the craziest thing in the world. >> sounded like a republican saying people who were busting it 60 hours a week working can't afford it. >> it's the 2010 tea party
message. >> it is. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," veteran republican strategist mike murphy joins us. he declared "the biggest loser" of last night's debate ted cruz. he'll explain that ahead. first, here's bill karins with a check on hurricane matthew as the state of south carolina prepares for mass evacuations from the coast. bill? >> soon we'll hear about georgia and florida with those evacuations too. we're expecting that at the 9:00 a.m. hour. came off the coast of cuba. pretty significant changes overnight. did drop down to a category 3. lost 20 miles an hour in intensity. it's back over the warm waters and should re-intensify. hurricane warnings from miami to west palm beach, vero beach and indian river. it's extended up the coast line of florida and miami is under tropical storm warning. take you through the track forecast. possibly go up to a category 4
strength as we go throughout the next 24 to 36 hours. the greatest impact will be thursday night down here around west palm beach and all day friday raking the coast of florida as possibly a major hurricane and it could even make a landfall somewhere near daytona beach. it will be a very close call and for the north it looks like it will brush the coast line of south carolina and north carolina. that has improved in charleston and wilmington. don't let your guard down. it's not set in stone quite yet. more "morning joe" when we come back. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪
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catastrophic event, and i think that's who governor pence's running mate is, exactly who president reagan warned us about. >> oh, come on. senator. senator. that was even beneath you and hillary clinton and that's pretty low. >> do you think -- do you think we should have more nuclear weapons in the world will make us safer? >> senator, the -- >> that's what donald trump thinks. >> ronald regan also said nuclear war should never be fought because it could never be won. >> that's just -- pence was -- >> good point. >> -- tonely -- >> tonely he was great. he had a pretty tough job because he had to keep swatting away donald trump never said that about rosie o'donnell, but tone nally -- >> even though he did -- >> yeah, exactly. tonely, unfortunately, tim kaine who is always pitch perfect here was not last night. >> all right. the latest ad spending number show clinton supporters who outweigh trump 159 million to 50
million. when it comes to swing state ad spending donald trump is beginning to match clinton in states like new hampshire though he still trails elsewhere. still, clinton has drastically outspent trump for the cycle. her supporters have spent 34 million more in florida, 14 million more in north carolina and in north carolina after being in a virtual tie two weeks ago in the elon university poll hillary clinton leads donald trump 45% to 39%. gary johnson polling at 9%. >> let's talk about north carolina first and we'll go to some other swing state polls. mark halpern, we had two polls out yesterday from north carolina that actually showed this race deadlocked. >> trump can't win without north carolina. >> can we see mark halpern's face? >> there he is. >> it's a beautiful face. >> ah, so sweet. >> so that poll -- >> very likeable face. >> -- had him down 6 points. i think you had a dead heat as well as i think quinnipiac had it in a dead heat. >> it's a must-win for trump,
it's not for clinton. it's a very hard state to poll. what's the electorate going to look like? i think in the end trump winning north carolina doesn't get him 270 but he might have a chance for 270 and you're going to see as much focus in that state as you see in any other. ohio's leaning towards trump. florida's such a big state. watch them be a north carolina over and over again. i think that trump people would concede they're behind there and that's why the next debate is so important. they must catch up in that state in order to then look for the final electoral votes they need if they're going to have a chance. >> we should thank alex and dom not going for mark halpern. >> he was having a sandwich. >> it's all over his face. >> let's go to pennsylvania. >> oh, really? in pennsylvania hillary clinton now leads 10 points in the latest monmouth university poll, 50/40. >> mark halpern, quinnipiac showed 4 point lead.
that appears to be an outlier. we show two or three polls show hillary clinton comfortably at double digits. >> even when trump was narrowing the gap nationally he still had a problem there. it is now the view of both campaigns that although trump and his advisors have talked a lot about pennsylvania, they don't rule out that, that to get to 270 electoral votes it's not going to involve pennsylvania right now as the most likely path. it's going to involve some other combination of smaller states which get him just above 270 if he can win them all. it does narrow his path. the pennsylvania option was the lead option for trump. i don't think it is any longer. coming up on "morning joe," tim kaine tries to put donald trump's tax questions on mike pence. nbc white house correspondent kristen welker joins us live in a few minutes. we'll talk to her about that and whether or not the clinton campaign is about to roll out yet another big name surrogate. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪
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donald trump is a businessman, not a career politician. he actually built a business. those tax returns that wer-- that came out publicly this week show that he -- he faced some pretty tough times 20 years ago, but like virtually every other business, including "the new york times" not too long ago, he used what's called net operating loss. we have a tax code, senator, that actually is designed to encourage entrepreneurship -- >> but why won't he release his
tax returns. >> we're answering the question about the business thing. >> i do want to come back on this. >> his tax returns -- his tax returns that showed he went through a very difficult time but he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used, and he did it brilliantly. >> that was mike pence last night responding to tim kaine's repeated attacks over donald trump's tax returns. joining us now from chappaqua, new york, nbc news white house correspondent kristen welker who's covering the clinton camp. turning their attention to sunday's big debate, presidential debate and some new fire power on the campaign trail. explain. >> reporter: that's right, mika. just moments ago a senior democratic official tells me that al gore will start campaigning for secretary clinton. no details yet about when or where, but, look, this could be significant. he's, of course, former president bill clinton's vice president. he could help with progressives because he's done a lot of work
with climate change, but more importantly, he's going to be out there talking about his work with climate change and that could help to rally those all important millennial voters. that's a group that secretary clinton is struggling with right now. so he could help to really unify and mobilize the obama coalition. that is the hope. one more point, mika. we're also learning that president obama having to cancel a planned campaign stop to florida today because of hurricane matthew, this is the second time he's had to postpone a campaign trip. the first time was over the summer in the wake of the orlando shooting. to your first point about debate prep, that is going to be the focus now that the vice presidential debate is over. the clinton campaign saying they feel good about the performance that tim kaine delivered even be though poll shows that he lost the debate, they effectively feel as though he did what he needed to do, which is go on the attack and expose some of the controversial comments that donald trump made. still the fact that he's getting criticized a bit for the debate puts more pressure on secretary
clinton to have a strong performance. she is going to prepare for this debate as vigorously as she prepared for the first debate. of course, the preparation is going to include the town hall style format. i am also told that philippe reines, former top aide at the state department will be playing trump. he is someone who has no problem showing -- throwing a sharp attack on getting personal with her, which quite fair and accurately they believe really helped her to be prepared for that first debate. so i'm told she hasn't donnie mocks yet but that's going to start soon. she's pretty much cleared her schedule to prepare, mika. >> nbc's kristen welker, thank you very much. joining us now republican strategist, nbc analyst and host of the radio free gop podcast, mike murphy. good to have you back on board, mike. >> hello. >> so who -- you say ted cruz lost the debate. i'm confused. >> my point about -- i'm still laughing over the al gore thing. one thing millennials love is
the past. >> i don't get it. >> when you unleash the al gore weapon, look out. my point about the debate -- >> says a non-trump supporter. >> exactly. >> gore's just comedy gold. can't resist. here's my view on what happened last night. i think mike pence had a meaningful performance in a meaningless debate so you have to ask does it really change things? >> right. it does in republican eternal long-term politics which i know nobody cares about right now but the polls do. >> i know what you're getting at. >> and cruz now has some competition should trump, as i believe, not win in the competition for the future of the party. pence has that ambition. we're hearing the grumbles, sour talk that pence was adopting the french army defense. maybe we have a little schism now. it will be interesting to see if that gets worse. >> as of yesterday, five weeks away from election day, swing state polls have grown wider for
hillary clinton in many states. the electoral map always was difficult for donald trump. looks even tougher maybe this morning than ever. what could change in five weeks to give donald trump an advantage? is it a performance at a debate? is that enough? >> debates on the presidential side, the big candidate, they're huge moments if you can do it. we've only had one science experiment here, it didn't go very well. what trump needs is one of two large groups of the electorate to totally change their mind about it. either college educated white voters, particularly women, or minority voters because if he loses both by the size he's losing them now, he's going to lose the election. so he's got to reach out and somehow connect with one of those two groups. he is not a reach out and connect kind of guy. it's like he has a gene not to do that. >> right. >> so i'll bet money against it, but it's not impossible. >> mike, you seem to be preparing the nation for a trump loss. how do you scoop back up his
supporters into the old gop or how do you make a new gop and bring them along and marry them up with the guys you like to work with? >> that's the huge question. one thing we have to remember about trump supporters, he did very well with these 44% or so in the republican primary. most of those are traditional republican primary voters. they've been around a long time. >> who picked him over jeb. >> they wanted a grievance candidate and they found one. voters find what they want late in the process. so i'm not worried about the big defection problem. i'm worried about how we reform conservatism so we can win a general election again or we're going to be the sideline party for a long time. my prediction, which is not particularly a happy one, the reality is we're going to have warlord rule in the party with a lot of competing generalists fighting this out. we won't settle this until we have a new nominee. >> mike murphy, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> good to see you. new hampshire senator kelly
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this windows pc is amazing, having all of my tools... ...right at my finger tips is incredible. as i said, i misspoke. i'm sure all of you in your lives have misspoken. i misspoke. certainly i hope that all of our children aspire to run for president, but i would not hold out either donald trump or hillary clinton as good examples and i wouldn't hold them out as examples of role models for my children. >> that was senator kelly ayotte on a cleanup patrol over a moment during that debate earlier this week in which she said she considers donald trump to be a role model for kids, but her opponent in a tight senate race, new hampshire governor maggie hassel put out a new web
ad using the senator's words against her. >> would you tell a child to aspire to be like donald trump? would you point to him as a role model? >> absolutely i would do that. >> she gained a massive amount of weight and it was -- it was a real problem. >> donald trump called you miss piggy. >> yeah. miss piggy, miss housekeeping. >> how did that make you feel? >> so sad. >> but here's a woman, and she can't make it 15 feet to her car. >> i watched the original comment and then the retraction. i actually think she got through it pretty quickly to attend to her base of support. it's a powerful message. i thought since megyn kelly raised this issue of the content and the tone with which he addresses women is his greatest vulnerability. i think, you know, we're all
parents. there is a recklessness in putting him in. the tee fence is she was a pageant queen. there's no explanation for the content of the messages. >> you know what, the truth, it really doesn't hurt and i really think that -- and it's easy for me to say. i think it's always easy to say after the fact but you've got to be truthful. how about this? you know anyone who runs for president that's somewhat of a role model, but as it pertains to women and racism, minorities in this country, i would say absolutely not. what would that lose her? >> yeah. >> what would that lose her? >> that's clearly what she believes. >> what she believes. >> support the nominee for president. >> they hear a question at a debate and they run it through the political filter. >> yeah. >> say something bad about donald trump and this tight race, who am i running off? >> he'll attack me, he'll tweet at me. i'll become a national story. what she values is her seat.
she's trying to keep something she values. i understand the political filter. >> yeah. >> the problem. >> look at this race. look at this. >> razor thin. >> okay. up next, did donald trump use donations to his foundation to help launch his presidential run? we'll have new reporting from real clear politics ahead when the sites co-founder joins us. back in a moment. t ge programmed machines to talk. ge is an industrial company that actually builds world-changing machines. machines that can talk to each other digitally. world-chahello?machines. they don't talk to each other like that, ricky. shhhh, you'll anger it. he looks a little ticked off now. now that i work there, i vuee . dog chow natural. i feed it to yoshi because there are no artificial colors,
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a new report draws connections between donald trump's charitable contributions and building support for his white house campaign. a real clear politics review of trump foundation's tax filings from 2011 to 2014 shows donations corresponded to speaking slots and endorsements before influential conservative groups. the report says that although sources familiar with the thinking behind the donations cautioned that trump did not explicitly ask for favors in return for the money, they said the contributions were part of a deliberate effort by trump to ingratiate himself. among the foundation contributions were $50,000 to the american conservative union foundation, the non-profit arm of the group that organizes cpac where trump spoke and $100,000 contribution in 2014 to the citizens united foundation. trump has not contributed to his foundation since 2008. such contributions if they were made solely for trump's benefit
could violate federal self-dealing laws for private foundations. rcp says the trump campaign did not respond to requests for comment. joining us now from chicago, co-founder and publisher of real clear politics, tom bevin. tom, you want to take it further on the reportings here. is there a direct correlation between the money and the events or is it just potentially coincidental? >> no, and this was a great piece of reporting by rebecca burg, one of our national political correspondents. there was no quid pro quo as you mentioned. it seemed like an effort on donald trump's behalf to ingratiate himself with different conservative outfits as he sort of had his eye on a potential presidential run and this follows along with other reporting that's been done that
trump had used his foundation. >> do you see similarities? >> i'm sorry, what was that? >> the clinton foundation, cgi, all the questions about -- are they similar, sort of events and then speeches and -- is it sort of similar, this sort of dot to dot? >> the clinton foundation has its own issues, i think, and there are certainly parallels between the two, but with regard to this particular -- with trump's foundation, i mean, he -- he didn't write a check to his own foundation, 2008 i think was his last contribution. he was getting money from other people who they were assuming he was using it for charitable purposes. he was sending it to charitable organizations, but as rebecca reported, that he was doing this, i think, with an eye toward becoming politically active and potentially running for president. >> rebecca's reporting certainly seems restrained and
responsible, but i wonder if you could speculate on whether this falls in the category of carelessness, which some of the trump activities and behaviors seem to be explained that way, or something more sinister, whether you think this was sort of the evil genius of a plat or if this was the carelessness of a man and an organization that wasn't accustomed to the scrutiny that accompanies public life. >> i don't want to speculate. i'll let the reporting speak for itself. certainly, you know, trump's foundation has operated in a way that's different and he -- these activities would be something that -- and he made -- by the way, he made a lot of donations out of his personal funds, too. this is over a three-year period, a total of about $286,000. so he made additional donations out of his personal funds to other groups. again, i'll let the reporting speak for itself. >> tom, you did good reporting
on that piece. let me go to the thing you're best known for which is looking at some of these polls, particularly the swing states, florida, ohio, north carolina, pennsylvania, we've shown a lot of other polls that show hillary clinton opening up in some places you'd expects her to, somewhere like pennsylvania, for example, but it's still tight in florida, ohio donald trump leads. north carolina is air tight. what's the state of the race right now? >> well, from the post convention period, about the seven weeks leading up to that first debate trump shaved 6 points off of clinton's lead, from 7.5 to 1.5. in the polling we have post debate clinton has been able to add two points back and we've seen that -- those gains follow along at the state level as you would expect. trump still leads in ohio and iowa. i think of all the polls the biggest problem for trump is in
florida. she's bounced out to a three-point lead there and that's pretty significant in a couple of the polls. i think without florida trump's really got a problem trying to get to 270. of all the polls that have come out in the past two weeks or week, i would say, those polls in florida have to worry the trump campaign the most. >> are you surprised by the volatility in colorado? we have something that's double digits, hillary leaves, donald trump gets within one or two points. now we're back to double digits again? >> yeah. that really has been surprising. and it's hard to -- it's hard to figure out how much that has to do with the individual polls themselves or whether there actually is that much volatility in the race in colorado. it seems to be very bouncy there which is something that we haven't expected, but we have seen that in some of these other states where we've seen some movement where some other states like ohio, for example, pennsylvania where the polls have basically confirmed a trump lead in virginia where clinton's had a solid lead there.
>> right. >> colorado has been one of the bounciest states. >> pennsylvania, the quinnipiac poll that shows a 4 point lead there, obviously that's -- to us that seems like the outlier for the polls taken this week. does that quinnipiac poll seem a bit out of step with everything else you've seen of late in pennsylvania? >> well, that poll has been a little bit more favorable to trump over time. by the way, that's going back to florida, that was the quinnipiac poll that showed a six-point gain for hillary clinton or five-point gain since the beginning of the month. that's why trump should be concerned about that. yeah, we have seen some other polls in pennsylvania that have her lead a little bit higher. again, with margin of error, i wouldn't -- the race could be four points, it could be more toward the 7 or 8. not selling a broken record, stick with the average. the average that's the aggregate daft at that will give you the best indication where the race is. >> tom bevin real clear politics, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back with more "morning joe."
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♪ ♪ the highly advanced audi a4. ♪ welcome back. what we've learned today. really, i've got to tell you what i learned today, "morning joe," this whole idea of doing a three-hour show, no scripts, it's crazy idea in the world. >> oh. >> what else? >> great way of killing small businesses in america. >> it is. and for people who work hard and play by the rules, they're hurt by "morning joe." >> go ahead, willie. >> i learned we robbed the nobel
prize for chemistry. >> what do i have to do? >> we did the thing where we dropped the mentos in a two liter bottle of coca-cola. >> i give up. >> i learned -- >> bill clinton is going to be i think the next gennifer flowers debate. i think -- >> i heard the craziest thing in the world means awesome. so that does it for us. stephanie rule picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks, mika. willey didn't win, you don't put the mentos in the cup, they go in the bottle. this morning, attack, defend, deny. the vice presidential nominees tear into one another's candidates. >> the campaign of hillary clinton and tim kaine has been an avalanche of insults. >> you can't have somebody at the top who demeans every group that he talks about. >> in a debate filled with accusations and a whole lot of interruptions. >> i just got --