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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  November 16, 2016 12:00am-1:01am PST

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plus rachel maddow on the global implications of a president-elect not having his act together. senator sherrod brown on the democrats first real fight to remove steve bannon. and the facebook effect. mark zuckerberg denies fake news on facebook affected the election. tonight my interview with a former employee who disagrees. when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. during the presidential campaign, paul ryan described comments by donald trump as racist and decried trump's muslim ban as un-american. he nominated him and ryan put his misgivings behind. >> i talk with donald trump virtually every single day. i spoke with mike pence this morning. we're on the same page, we're working hand in glove and we're going to make sure this is a very successful administration.
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>> promising a new dawn. that wasn't the only sign republicans were falling in line. this is the scene before he was nominated today. those are make america great again hats on every chair. house majority whip steve scalise was so excited about his new swag that he proudly waited around for the cameras. while house republicans appear organized, unified to carry out the agenda of the man who successfully executed a takeover of their party or perhaps their own agenda pre-existing him, there's one big problem, the man whose agenda they are going to be working hand in glove with, a man with exactly zero experience in government for first time in the history of the republic appears to be botching the job of building the team a president needs to actually run the country. after he unceremoniously dumped chris christie as the head of his transition team, he turned to mike pence where pence or someone on his team was required by law to sign a document to work with the white house on the transition and no one signed the document until late today.
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that's four days of working with the white house wasted and there are only 73 days to set up the new government. a process that involves, among many other tasks, the monumental job of vetting and hiring and getting cleared 4,000 political appointees. and that's far from the most worrying news, mike rogers who led the house intelligence committee and was handling security matters for the transition team was removed today in what a source close to rogers said was the stalinesque purge of people close to chris christie. another report says rogers was ousted because in 2014 his committee released a report on benghazi that did not fit with the right-wing narrative about the events on that night. the weekly standard reporting that cia officers octobered to the report's claim that no cia officer on the ground in benghazi was told to stand down from a rescue attempt. a story that you encounter in conservative media quite often. "the new york times" reports
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that trump had removed a second senior defense and senior foreign policy official from his transition team, matthew friedman. then there's elliott cohen who encouraged those to join the trump administration. but the times report mr. cohen suggested the caveat that many foreign policy hands would enlist only if there were credible people leading national security agencies and departments. he said he received a vituperative e-mail in response. after exchange with trump transition team changed my recommendation. stay away. they're angry, arrogant screaming, you lost. will be ugly. there were reports the transition team was struggling to find qualified people to take posts in the trump administration. another troubling sign the state and defense department say they have not yet even been contacted by the trump transition team. as for the secretary of state job, the trump camp has suggested it is down to either rudy giuliani whose astounding conflicts of interest we'll
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detail shortly or john bolton whose extreme hawkishes is so out of step with the trump administration, many are bewildered he's even in the conversation. ben carson had been floated as possible secretary of health and human services. obviously, the man is a neurosurgeon, celebrated, wide seen as one of the best in the business. and that job would likely entail rolling back obamacare. he took himself out of the running saying despite seeking the presidency, carson does not believe he is qualified for the job. doesn't know how to run a federal agency. trump this morning received his first president's daily briefing at trump tower. in an unprecedented move trump's campaign has asked that jared kushner, trump's son-in-law, also have clearance to attend those meetings. robert, your reporting all along suggested that kushner is probably the most important person in trump's circle.
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you can't just give security clearance to anyone you want because you like them. i mean, there's a kind of need to know basis here, right? >> there's a power matrix that's developing around the president-elect. it includes kushner who is working closely with steve bannon, the chief strategist. kushner also gets along with reince priebus, the incoming chief of staff. these are the people who are in the president-elect's ear, highly influential. kushner was on the plane with trump throughout the campaign. >> is your reporting suggests that kushner would actually join the administration? >> because of the laws around bobby kennedy, it's unlikely that he may get a formal role. but what we're looking at based on nbc's reporting and my own conversations with those close to the trump transition is that kushner could get a security clearance but may not yet have a title. >> there's anti-nepotism laws
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that would appear to ban family members from getting federal jobs and that includes in the white house where there's a greater degree of latitude and less civil service protection. but include the white house. what you're saying could happen is even though the law bars him from working formally in the white house, he could still get security clearance and essentially be an unpaid adviser. >> there's an important distinction here. some of the trump children are looking to run the trump organization to have some separation from the presidency. but jared kushner, though he's in real estate, has become a senior political adviser to the president-elect. it would be almost unfathomable to perceive how trump would work without kushner by his side based on the campaign. >> i want to make sure it's clear what kind of situation we may be getting into. the son-in-law of the president-elect would be sitting in on the presidential daily briefing and then also be married to a woman who is part of running the president-elect's business enterprise, right?
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>> one important job will likely be white house counsel to look at all these entanglements. >> what else did your reporting suggest about the level of preparation? i know firsthand i've talked to people, i know people that worked on presidential transitions that start even before the election happens. huge amounts of work. no one can possibly get their hands around the scope of it until they're confronted with it. are these folks ready? >> there's a sea change happening within the transition. there's been a coup of sorts. a lot of the christie people are being purged. they're seen as just not the right fit. it's the jeff sessions people that really work working with kushner and bannon. the hardline conservative populist right that's coming into this white house, though mike pence, the vice president-elect is atop the transition, sessions, kushner, bannon, trump himself who are working to try to fill this white house.
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>> robert costa, joining me now charlie pierce and april ryan, author of the new book "at mama's knee." charlie, you wrote about this today. sam stein reporting that the -- about the sort of freeze that set in where department of energy, department of transition, justice department all still waiting to hear. we're not talking about anything ideological here. we're talking about the most basic nuts and bolts, blocking and tackling of the monumental organizational task that is now being undertaken. it does not appear to be even being done at this moment. >> no. we have drifted into what can be fairly called terra incoherent. i have no idea who is running things. robert costa just explained it probably as lucidly as anybody in the business can and i still don't know what is going on. i don't know who is running things. mike rogers and elliott cohen
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running around like kevin mccarthy in "invasion of the body snatchers." you have ben carson taking himself out of the thing. you have rudy giuliani who apparently has his pick of any federal office he wants and lo and behold today we learn that there actually were people loyal to chris christie who aren't testifying against him. >> april, you've covered the white house for some time. >> yes. >> can you try to -- i mean, i think that it's very hard to communicate just how complex, what a buzz saw it is to walk into when you are told you are now taking over the most powerful office in the world. here's what you need to do. >> well, bottom line, what he needs to do is quicken the pace and it looks like he's going to walk into the oval office and he may not have all of his posts, all of those 4,000 posts filled.
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that's not anything surprising. that has happened before in the past, you know, it continues to build. the appointments happen, but his key people need to be in place very soon. but what i will tell you is in going back to the jared kushner and the children issue, he's floating that idea he really wants president-elect -- we still have to get our minds around that -- president-elect donald trump wants his children to have security clearance. you think about giving a security clearance, they would have to be named advisers. and they can't just be named advisers for something like the aca or something else. they'd have to be named to specific issues dealing with the security clearance. let's say they want to be advisers for israel, they have to get a clearance for that. they can't just willy-nilly be an adviser. that's one piece to this complicated puzzle right now.
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>> charlie, one of the things that i think has gotten lost with everyone singing off the same hymnal is that cohen said that people think the good jobs are lollipops for good girls and boys. we love make america great again, we love donald trump. something the trump people have not forgotten who they felt was insufficiently loyal to them. if there's one thing we know about donald trump, it's how much he values retribution, grievance and revenge. >> i think he's made his list and checked it twice already. what genuinely makes me uneasy with the way things are going are not -- is not really that he's going to do everything he said he was going to do. it's that he has no idea of this job. plus the people who have been up close and realized that he has no idea how to do this job are
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leaking like sieves. >> let me be clear here about no idea of this job. let's assume that donald trump was the most brilliant, gifted individual in human history. let's assume that you view him as that if you're watching this. even if that were the case, in the country's history, no one has ever been elected with less experience. the job itself is very hard. he has no experience. >> no. and every president learns on the job because nobody's really prepared -- >> that's right. >> -- for the kind of decisions that cross your desk every day. no one's prepared for that. no vice president who has ascended to the presidency was truly ready for that. certainly no vice president who assumed the presidency in extremis like harry truman has been ready for that. but this guy doesn't seem to be ready for a career in government. >> april? >> chris, that's a very good point.
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and just, was it yesterday, president obama said you're continuing to learn. there's always a learning curve, but you're continuing to learn. i talked to someone who is being vetted for a counselor's position in this new administration, and they said to me, you knowi'thinking about not taking it. i said why? they said my issue is not the position itself but to be able to talk directly to the president who is right now president-elect, to be able to talk to president trump and then someone else said to me, he said, that may not be a wise decision because he'll need a white house whisperer to help him understand the inner workings. and that within is a big problem right there. >> it's funny in this sort of perverse way. people said they would bring change to washington, they'll drain the swamp in this case, there's lobbyists crawling all over this. i've seen this up close, i've seen how the folks who know how things work become very important very quickly. >> oh, no question.
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and the other -- the obverse of that, which goes back to my late mentor george reed, somebody in the white house has got to be there to tell the president he's wrong. >> right. >> right now we don't have anybody in this administration that i can see who can tell the president anything. the president-elect, i mean. >> charlie pierce and april ryan, appreciate it both. stick around because rachel maddow is here to talk about more potential conflicts of interest and his phone call with putin. ohio senator sherrod brown is leading the charge. when coughing keeps your family awake. breathe easier with vicks vaporub. soothing cough relief that starts working instantly.
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i do believe separate and apart from any particular election or movement, that we are going to have to guard against a rise in a crude sort
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of nationalism or ethnic identity or tribalism that is built around an us and a them. >> you can see barack obama, the president, thinking hard about what he wanted to say there. he warned against crude nationalism but avoided criticizing his successor. without mentioning his name he sought to assure world leaders that the nato alliance will remain vital despite whatever the president-elect said on the campaign trail. >> the strong nato relationship between the united states and greece is of the utmost importance. it is something that provides significant continuity even as we see a transition of governments in the united states.
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>> despite the president's assurances, the fact remains donald trump is heading into the white house with a foreign policy that's based on his rhetoric and pretty much anybody's guess. since the election, russian president vladimir putin called and spoke with president-elect trump on a range of issues. that conversation reportedly happened before trump or anyone from his team spoke to the state department or the pentagon. there's general michael flynn whose name has been bandied about for national security adviser, even defense secretary, though that may be difficult. the daily caller said he was lobbied for ties to the turkish government. rudy giuliani who is reportedly being considered for secretary of state allegedly took money from qatar, venezuela and iranian exiles during his consultant work which would present conflicts of interests that would make the clinton foundation look trifling. joining me is rachel maddow. >> putting the trifling back in trifling.
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>> what's amazing is how much particularly down the stretch they hit this line of selling out to foreign interests, selling out to foreign interests, selling out to foreign interests, that's what the clinton campaign is doing, now we hear it might be rudy giuliani. >> or michael flynn. so turkey had this coup, what appeared to be a coup because the president of turkey called it a gift from god when it happened. then announced he's building 174 new prisons to lock up tens of thousands. everyone from professors to baklava sellers to the military, everybody. and then they decided afterwards, they were going to blame it on this turkish cleric who is a resident of the united states. telling them that we must hand him over. on election day michael flynn wrote an op-ed in the hill saying we ought to hand that guy over. screw our extradition processes, screw our independent judicial review. hand that guy over. it was like, on election day?
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you're the top military intelligence adviser to one of the top candidates in this election and your advice was to do something that turkey wants us to do. michael flynn runs a consulting group, they have one foreign client who is turkey. he's being paid by the government of turkey. and donald trump had that guy, whose firm is being paid by turkey, sit in on the presidential daily brief. >> that gets to the sort of broader point which is, look, there's a lot of things about american foreign policy at any moment that i disagree with, i don't think are great. but when you are talking about the most powerful nation on earth, there's a kind of continuity, stability that is just necessary, a practical matter about how all these different players are angling. no one knows what's in the black box right now. it could be bolton who said we should bomb iran or maybe it won't be bolton. flynn who apparently --
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>> who is being -- >> paid by the turkish government. what does it mean to have every other actor in the world looking at this wondering what's in the black box? >> and to have the russian government come out a day after the election and say, by the way, we were in touch with the trump campaign throughout the election while u.s. intelligence agencies say russia was trying to intervene in the election to hurt hillary clinton. what we've got here is not, you know, appearances of conflict of interest. what we don't have here is allegations of shady ties. we have admitted, reported, undisputed really inappropriate foreign ties at the highest level of the trump campaign and now the trump transition. the question is whether or not i think honestly whether or not the political system outside the trump campaign, including the press, can recognize that as abnormal. it's really abnormal. it's really shocking. there isn't an immediate legal
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correction for it. but it's not something that's ever happened before by a mile. >> this extends across the spectrum, right? conflicts are the sort of theme of the week in the last week. jared kushner, the son-in-law, may be getting security clearance to sit in. >> and the other person that trump asked to sit in. >> maybe he and ivanka go out and talk about what trump organizations, all of this again off the map, off the map. we've never been in this territory before. and we're a week in and we've never been in this territory before. >> one of the things who people who have been through this, people take a very like 50,000-foot view of this. and i've been thinking about a lot recently. that transitions are a vulnerable time for us in terms of national security. the trump campaign was surprised to learn it, but you really do lose the entire west wing staff and bring in all new people. there isn't a carry-over staff that makes sure things go well. it's handing off the baton and one of the runners stops.
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to see russia today massively step up its bombing campaign in aleppo. whatever you think about aleppo, whatever you think about the syrian civil war and our involvement, that's something that's been a real point of contention between the united states and the russian government around syria. and today they just put the pedal to the metal thinking that boy, are we not something we need to worry about. that's unsettling. >> this point about -- i'll tell personal stories, my wife reported for the office for the first day of the presidency in barack obama's white house. and literally, how do we get the phones to work? people really -- it's hard to get in your head, these are all just human beings starting a new job. >> and the seamless transition -- >> and in running the country and in terms of vulnerability, this is where things are very -- this is where, particularly from the standpoint of international actors who want to test the
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united states or find out through incursions of whatever kind, how the president will respond, that is what's -- >> particularly when those interests are the kinds of people who have much longer horizons than we have in our system. putin has been in office since -- right? >> that's a great point. >> -- forever. >> as is erdogan. >> in turkey and the chinese communist party in its various iterations in china. so you look at competing powers in the world, especially ones who see us as real rivals, see us in a zero sum fight who see themselves as being in a zero sum fight, for spheres of influence with other countries both economically and militarily. and those countries that don't turn over their leadership roles as rapidly as we do, they're perfectly positioned and already acting to capitalize on what we're having in this strange moment of disorganization. shock electorally in the country, but on the trump side real disorganization, what appears to be a total lack of capacity to pick up and run with
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what the obama administration was trying to leave them. >> quickly, then i'll let you prepare for the show that you have to do. interesting debate among never-trumpers about the inner circle and whether they should go into the administration or not. >> and people who had no position one way or the other in the campaign. people who would be professionals. you know, people who would be on the, you know, sort of junior lawyer side of things. i think it's a very, very hard decision. i think that there is a strong civic minded case to be made that you go work for your country. >> your country needs you literally. >> and get good people in there. and there's this sort of like character driven part of it that if nothing else, if you got the credentials, get in there so you're in a position to resign and make a big stink. >> if and when something happens. >> if and when something happens. on the other hand, maybe don't enable this stuff. i don't envy anybody who is making this decision. i think it's a hard call either
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way. civic minded folks will have a hard time making this decision. >> rachel maddow, so good to have you here. >> appreciate it. >> see you in a bit. just ahead democrats stage their first real fight calling for the removal of steve bannon as white house strategist. senator sherrod brown is here to talk about it.
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the peculiar dynamic of a businessman with a brand name becoming president of the united states is already becoming clear. on the monday after the sunday broadcast of "60 minutes," trump family interview, ivanka's company pointed out the bracelet she was wearing in the interview is available for purchase.
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following criticism, the company might be trying to make money off of a future first daughter's interview, abigail klem said, the style alert distributed to fashion journalist after the "60 minutes" interview was sent by a well intentioned marketing employee of one of our companies who was following customer protocol and who, like many of us, is still making adjustments post election. yes, we're all adjusting to the new reality because the spectrum of conflicts created by this situation has never been encountered in the nation's history. every day there will be opportunities for trump organization to profit from the fact that the person who is named on the business is also the leader of the free world. but such potential conflicts of interest aren't the trump team's only problem. today the daily beast reports a campaign watchdog group has made a complaint to the federal election commission claiming a trump super-pac illegally paid a company of steve bannon so that the trump campaign itself could avoid paying bannon a salary. we do not have an official response on this matter from trump folks. we can expect that the complaint
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filed in october will be met with a legal defense. ahead, the bigger problem the president-elect is facing with steve bannon at his side.
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today senate democrats united in their first fight with president-elect donald trump over his appointment of steve bannon as a senior counselor and chief white house strategist. >> president-elect trump will forever poison the well with congress and the american people by appointing figures like steve bannon whose stock in trade is
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hate and violence. >> it's easy to look at the tv camera and tell people to stop the hate, but when you say that and look at the tv camera and then in the next moment the action you take is to appoint steve bannon, then you're sending a very different and stronger message in the opposite direction. >> democrats called on trump to rescind the bannon appointment as the only way for trump to make a clear break from the more -- well, divisive aspects of the trump campaign and show he was serious about bringing the nation together. >> it is not normal for the kkk, ku klux klan, to celebrate the election of a president. if trump is serious about seeking unity, the first thing he should do is rescind his appointment of steve bannon. it will be impossible to take trump's efforts for the nation seriously.
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>> for elected republicans on bannon, it was a different story. >> look, i would just simply say that the president is going to be judged on his results. in is a person who helped him win an incredible victory, the president will be judged on the results of this administration. >> it may turn out to be the case there is no political traction for democrats in fighting steve bannon, but it is also true they see it as absolutely crucial as both substantively and morally correct. our next guest has joined that fight. senator sherrod brown said president-elect trump told us he wants to be a president for all americans and he cannot do that while empowering bigotry. joining me now senator sherrod brown of ohio. look, donald trump won this election and, you know, this is not a senate-confirmed position. they get to dance with the ones that brung them. >> of course he can appoint whomever he wants to those kinds of positions, but that was either his first -- i'm not sure -- his first or second appointment he's made of any consequence.
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he's said earlier, he looked in the camera during "60 minutes" and said stop, stop the hate, stop how far he said that. then he appoints a guy to a number one or number two position. he's kind of the karl rove whispering in the ear of the most powerful person on earth. and he's clearly a racist, he's clearly a misogynist, he's anti-semitic. and it's a moral question to me. i don't know if this is good politics or bad politics to criticize him, but you've got to call out, just like people in communities when people say racist things and feel it's okay now to be a sexist or a racist or a misogynist or a bigot, individuals have to call them out. i have to call them out when i see it. you have to call out this president when he engages, when he hires somebody that makes people even more uncomfortable. it's not a difference in policy. people in this country, the fear levels are higher than i could ever remember.
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i remember reagan's election, i was pretty devastated. but you didn't have the fear like this that so many people of color and so many disabled people and gay people and people who aren't christians have. and this is just making it worse. and trump needs to try to heal. and you don't do things like this to heal. >> yeah, i mean, it strikes me, right, from the trump perspective, from the political calculation here is that whatever -- and my understanding is your case against bannon here is the kinds of things breitbart has run, fly the confederate flag proudly just a few weeks after the massacre in charleston. the really nasty things that have been written about women and calling gabby giffords the human shield for the gun control movement, things like that. the trump campaign, though, donald trump said a lot of terrible things and he got elected president. it does seem like they're taking the lesson of this election to heart in that respect. >> there's a great difference of running for president and being president. i think that deer in the headlights look in president-elect's face when he
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was going in and out of a meeting with our president said that, that he does see it's different now, but he doesn't seem to think it's different enough. i'm incredulous that he would bring a guy like that. the president's job is to bring people together, to heal people. i know my job after an election, i listened to republicans, i work with republicans, i find ways. but you don't do this kind of thing -- >> senator, but look, i hear you where you're coming from substantively, but this is them sending a signal about how they feel they got there, what they won on and also communicating to everyone on capitol hill, yourself, colleagues on both sides of the aisle, this is who we are and this is who we'll be as an administration. >> that's why we fight back. on election night david duke, the imperial wizard of the kkk said this is one of the best nights of my life. when you have people saying that about you, you have to do something to heal the country. that's why we fight back.
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i asked people to come to sherrod, sign our petition to fire bannon. it's essential that we build grassroots movement and we say to trump to the president-elect, stop, you can't go over this line again. you've got to work to heal and not to continue to fan the flames of racist and xenophobic and anti-semitic talk, period. >> the raw numbers of the vote total in ohio would indicate that there are tens of thousands, probably more than that, actually, probably north of hundreds of thousands of sherrod brown donald trump voters in the state of ohio. what is your message to them? is there a senator? them as constituents of yours in the next period? >> my message, ways in trumpbull county in the two times i ran and trump won that county. it's about 85% white working class, a lot of union members, a lot of nonunion working workers.
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they know i'm on their side on the auto rescue. they know i'm on their side on trade. i believe they're offended by hiring steve bannon, too. that's why i say come to sherrod and sign this petition. because they have a decency to them. they just thought hillary wasn't going to stand up for them. i will. they want to see us work together. i'll work with trump on getting out of tpp. i've already told the head of his transition on trade, count on me on renegotiating nafta and count on me on tpp -- pulling out of tpp and trade enforcement. but don't count on me when you call on racist and bigoted type behavior and tax cuts for the rich and going after social security and medicare. those voters in trumpbull county, they're no longer donald trump voters within days. count on that.
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>> that is the open question of the political terrain in which we've now driven into, senator sherrod brown, a pleasure. >> did fake news on facebook have anything to do with donald trump's improbable election. mark zuckerberg says absolutely not. i'll talk to one of his former facebook employees who disagrees. it is getting under the president-elect's skin. thing 1, thing 2 starts right after this break.
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thing 1 tonight, president-elect trump is now losing the popular vote by over a million votes according to the cook political report, hillary clinton's popular vote lead stands at 1,001,616 votes and millions of ballots are still being counted. by some estimates her lead could grow to more than 2 million. that's far greater than nixon's lead in '68 and jfk's narrow lead in 1960. so no wonder someone is feeling insecure about the popular vote
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margins. president-elect trump tweeting, if the election were based on total popular vote i would have campaigned in new york, florida and california and won even bigger and more easily. the electoral college is actually genius in that it brings all states including the small one, into play. it's not a terrible point. it's true. things probably would be different if it was run differently. how he used to feel about the electoral college versus popular vote is thing 2.
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he lost the popular vote by a lot and won the election. the loser won. our country is now in serious unprecedented trouble like never before. the electoral college is a disaster for democracy. those are all quotes from one donald j. trump, some of which have been deleted but all of which appeared on his twitter feed late on election night after the network called the election for barack obama even though mitt romney was still leading by a couple hundred
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thousand votes with two-thirds of the votes counted. he went on to lose the popular vote by nearly 5 million votes. but while romney was still slightly ahead, donald trump declared the electoral college a disaster for democracy. four years later after he himself won the electoral college he called it genius, though given that trump also maintains he would have won bigger and more easily without the electoral college if the election was decided on the popular vote alone and he'd campaigned to win that instead. given that sentiment, surely president-elect trump will throw his wholehearted support behind senator barbara boxer's new bill to abolish the electoral college in favor of the popular vote.
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did you hear denzel washington endorse donald trump? the shocking news monday especially for denzel washington. that's because the fake news story was shared over 22,000 times on facebook by a slew of fraudulent websites posing as news organization.
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the publicist for denzel washington confirmed to bbc today the story is 100% complete fabrication. we're not talking about fringe websites distorting information. we're talking about actual fake websites made to look like news outlets posting completely fabricated stories. take for instance this story that made it way around facebook days before the election. fbi agent suspected in hillary e-mail leaks found dead in apparent murder-suicide. it was posted on a fake site called the denver guardian which has also posted fake stories that president clinton was offered a complete pardon. if you click on it every click takes you to an error page. others are facing their role in spreading this disinformation. after the break i'll be joined by a former facebook employee
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who says the problem may be bigger than mark zuckerberg wants to admit.
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we've got strange breaking news. the president-elect of the united states donald trump going to eat a steak here in manhattan. you can see him entering the room there. the reason this is news, it's not news that he went to do it. the news is that he broke the so-called protect pool.
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there's a pool in place for the president of the united states and also the president-elect. and the institution of it is they cover the most powerful person in the world, in this case the second most powerful person in the world or about to be. we know when the president-elect first took a trip to the white house, he broke that tradition. and here he is again escaping the protective pool. at one level you can understand why you want to get a steak without the press around. but the protective pool is there for a reason. it's a means by which the american public and the media have their eyes essentially on the leader of the free world at all times more or less when he could be doing anything in his official business. it seems like they're making an early departure from that tradition and maybe the first of many. facebook, the largest social media network in the world has been criticized for an influx of fake political news. the story that pope francis
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endorses donald trump made the rounds despite being false. mark zuckerberg said it was a pretty crazy idea that facebook helped donald trump win. that's gotten flashback from renegade facebook employees who formed a task force to battle fake news. what's crazy is for zuckerberg to come out and dismiss it like that when he knows and those of us at the company know that fake news ran wild on our platform during the entire season. yesterday facebook declared a policy that fake news sites aren't allowed on its advertising network saying our team will closely vet all prospective publishers to ensure compliance. zuckerberg wrote over the weekend, i believe we must be extremely cautious about becoming arbiters of truth ourselves. joining me now, former facebook employee antonio garcia martinez, facebook's first product manager for ad targeting.
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also author of the book "chaos monkeys, obscene fortune and random failure in silicon valley." you guys saw this developing. what did it look from the inside? what were the concerns as you watched this new kind of genre of viral totally fabricated stories go wild through the facebook platform? >> well, you know, in 2012, the fake news thing wasn't as big a factor. but the reality that facebook could actually throw an election has been well known for years. we used to joke internally, and of course it was only a joke, but if facebook, for example, only showed those little reminders to vote that you see inside facebook, if it only showed it to a certain subset of counties and certain swing states, it could totally throw the election, right? this is a well known thing that facebook has been aware of for years. weird that zuckerberg is acting surprised in 2016 that it could possibly have influenced the election.
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>> 44% of people get their news from facebook. i can't tell you how many stories i've heard that people talk about the centrality of this platform. it's the biggest most important media platform in the world right now and it's exercising essentially zero standards over its content. >> yeah, look, here's the real hypocrisy of it. facebook has hundreds of sales people with a huge office in washington, d.c. and they are literally going to tell political advertisers, we'll win you an election and then zuck turns around and says, no, there's no possibly way that facebook can influence the election. it's really disingenuous of him to claim this and on the face of it really false. >> i understand his desire to not create an editorial structure. if you want my prediction, they'll get sucked into doing just that because of this issue. but he doesn't want to do that. but it does seem like there's low hanging fruit here. there's a genre, it's essentially a kind of spam or a nigerian e-mail scam.
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it's one of those things that gets thrown off in the maelstrom of the internet where facebook has the smarts to stamp this out. >> the immediate reaction after zuck says hey only 1% of content is fake. well, then why didn't you just delete it? >> if you know what it is. >> why didn't you just get rid of it? for years google and facebook have hidden behind the argument of we just use math. we don't decide what we show you. it's just math. we optimize for engagement. we show you stuff that you will comment and like on and that's it. when the stakes become american domsy, that excuse just isn't good enough. as you said, in the future they'll have to assume those responsibilities of editorship because they're a media company not just a tech company. >> snapchat is a platform, too, but they've hired some editorial side employees largely because
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of dealing with this issue. >> the problem there is that culture of responsibility of engagement with your readership is really foreign to the culture of facebook. they're kind of allergic to becoming sort of "the new york times" for the world. >> it's terrifying to them. but it turns out when you build a platform with a billion people on it, you get some responsibility. thank you for your time. >> sure. >> that is "all in" for this evening. the rachel maddow show starts right now. >> my pleasure. >> thanks. in the summer of 2004, the democratic governor of new jersey made a very dramatic announcement and he stepped down from office. resignation press conferences are dramatic things. this one i remember sitting on the edge of my seat.
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nobody really knew where exactly this was going. once he got into it, no one had ever heard a political resignation quite like this one. >> at a point in every person's life, one has to look deeply into the mirror of one's soul and decide one's unique truth in the world. not as we may want to see it or hope to see it, but as it is. and so my truth is that i am a gay american, and i am blessed to live in the greatest nation with the tradition of civil liberties, the greatest tradition of civil liberties in the world and a country which provides so much to its people. i am also here today because, shamefully, i engaged in adult


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