tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC November 16, 2016 4:00pm-5:01pm PST
grab your internet contraption. what senate republicans can do to secure cabinet nominations, where the trouble might exist for trump in his own party. until then, thanks for watching. coming up, "hardball" with chris matthews. you're fired. or you're hired. let's play "hardball." good evening. three big guests tonight. senator corker, ohio congressman tim ryan, the rust belt democrat, and out front, rand paul. this as donald trump and his
allies are criticizing, disputing and otherwise down playing reports that his trans significance in disarray. even as multiple outlets consumed by back bigt, vendettas and acrimony. the president-elect has taken to twitter on personally address those reports. he said that a very organized pros is he taking place. adding with a note of suspense, i am the only one who knows who the finalists are. this follows what some describe as a purge of chris christie's allies, mike rogers who was among the departure to describe his exit on cnn last night. >> sometimes in politics, you know, in the palace intrigue, there are people who are in and people who are out. and the people who have been asked to move on have some relationship with chris christie. >> well, rogers said the problem inside trump tower is that it is not clear who is calling the
shots. >> i think there's some confusion going on about a chain of command coming out of new york. hopefully they'll get settled pretty soon. i think they'll need to do it. as this clock ticks, all of these decisions become more important and you have to make them sooner with a little more authority and a little more forward thinking to make sure she don't bump into anything. >> the former rival, senator ted cruz of texas, is being considered for attorney general. when it comes to the top cabinet positions, a source close to rudolph giuliani tells nbc the mayor's inner circle expects to it happen but he has yet to receive an official offer. this comes amid reports that he made mlss off foreign climates, including a payment from an anti-ayatollah political party. other contenders for secretary of state include john bolton and senator bob corker of tennessee who will join us on the program. i'm joined by kelly o'donnell,
political analyst, and eugene robinson with me with the "washington post." i want to get to you, kelly. i never know when some news will come flying out of that tower up there that you're covering. what are you making of this death squad that seems to be operating? all of a sudden, mike rogers is kicked out, elliott cohen is given the bum's rush. who is it inside that's telling people, you're fired? >> based on my reporting, chris, what i have been told is that jared kushner, the president-elect's son-in-law has been the center of power for a very long time. through campaign and now especially in the transition. while kellyanne conway had the campaign manager title, steve bannon had the ceo title, it is the title less jared kushner who has been the power base. trusted by his father-in-law, obviously trusted by his wife
ivanka and flying under the radar for a long time now. what my reporting tells me is that a figure like mike rogers, form he fbi agent, form he house committee, someone respected but doesn't really have chris christie ties. he was in fact hired by chris christie by the transition to run national security. but they don't have a personal history. based on my reporting, rogers indicated that he was told based on his association with chris christie, he was being pushed out. that goes back to the very personal conflict between jared kushner and chris christie over the prosecution of kushner's father charles ten years ago. >> so is chris christie with all his problems with the bridge and not being president, typhoid mary, anyone who has ever contacted him is dead? is that the deal some. >> in this transition phase, what we have seen is there are several figures associated with christie who have been told to leave.
they include some of the people whha worked closely with christie, in new jersey politics and people he brought in with expertise. the other interesting thing about this is i'm told that senator jeff sessions of alabama and christie, worked very carefully over the transition to assemble the list of name for things like the big cabinet positions and the key transition employees. and that both sessions and christie each signed off on every name. so if one thought this was a good choice and the other did not, they would agree that they both had to come to terms with accepting whatever the list was. so the fact that some of those names have been pushed aside. that doesn't reflect on jeff sessions who is very much anticipated to get some cabinet level job. on the christie side it appears there is an intentional blockade against governor christie and all the reporting suggests that it is personal from kushner to christie. >> this doesn't look good for
the president-elect to have someone around him like this person that is able to knock somebody off because they don't like the line he came from. this is a lot of power to have somebody black ball the administration. specially case of mike rogers who everybody believes would have been a moderating force in the intelligence world. >> this is more than an ideological battle. it is not like hawk versus dove. what we're really seeing is a restructure of power. and kelly nailed when it she talked about this nexus between bannon and sessions and kushner. these are the people in trump's ear. >> presidents get elected. nobody elected jared kushner to be the president of the united states. nobody elected a death squad knocking off people because of past abuses. >> i personally don't understand but they can. you have to assume this is the way he wants it.
>> look at the way he ran the trump organization. which was essentially a family business, right? they became the inner circle i know what the son-in-law jared kushner on whom he has relied pretty much throughout the campaign. kind of tunneled radar. as was the formation of the trump white house. >> a trump critic, a neo con who worked in the state department under george w. bush, said that his talk was that it was so hostile, it told fellow republicans to stay away. now he has expanded on that in an op ed saying he has
surrounded himself, it seems to be unquestioning loyalty. one bad boss can be endured. a gaggle of them will poison it. in a press gaggle today, the trump spokesman called it bitter. >> a number of news reports, all sorts of descriptions. it is very calm and structured. either a., bitter. or someone who is bitter because they didn't get what they wanted. >> let's go back. the whole horn again. what's your sense watching this? i have to ask the same question. is there a hurricane with, the
eye of the hurricane is trump? and it is much calmer from her perspective? he gets on fick apprentice? is he enjoying this? is it only from the outside looking in? >> i think based on my reporting, donald trump has not been involved in these heated sessions and meetings where this dynamic has made out. he has been receiving foreign leader calls. he has been in his residence nrgs his office. not at the table. when some of this strife was being exposed. where you have people scratching names for potential positions and jockeying for the jobs they wanted. so i think the president-elect has a little distance from this and the transition related names had not been presented to him base on the my reporting that they were trying to assemble the list and this kind of sort of crash landed in recent days.
also, general flynn is very close to donald trump. also exerting some power. basically, wanting to be the official adviser on all things national security. so i think that donald trump has, of course, delegated a lot to his children as discussed. and the son-in-law an extension of that. and i think he is seeing that there is contention. when you have kellyanne conway projecting calm, that's to be expected. and they should move it along. there is no question that there is a lack of clarity about jobs. for example, kellyanne conway, a successful campaign manager. we don't know what role she would play. we only know priebus and bannon. there is a vacuum there and a lot of people who put time, effort, and ambition into this want to make sure they have a
place. >> let me ask robert. you know trump and his m.o. his m.o. he seem to be setting up due ats. like he'll put up a real hawk against rudy, a street guy hawk. a nonintellectual hawk. that's not the way he operates. and then he'll put up somebody like corker to make somebody like me thrilled. and then we find ourselves rooting for corker or he'll put up reince priebus and a scary guy like bannon up and say i guess i'm a reince priebus guy today. is he setting it up? you always look for someone less worse than the person you most fearful he knows we're doing this. trump. >> no one wanted to drive. some people close to trump were
not sure who would win. then he wins the election and everyone wants to drive the car. bits power, about control of the transition. when you see sessions and cushner and bannon, you say we're going to drive this car. we're going to run the transition. we're putting our people in. pence will be part of it. our campaign people. they're going in. when you talk about how he surrounds himself, it is how he ran the trump organization. co-cent rick circle. he likes having priebus as chief of staff and bannon as the chief strategist. bringing in competing positions. he likes the tension. >> betting on the big, what do you call it? the lottery. and he's been putting in $10 a day. every day he's been putting in $10.
>> he has no idea how the taxes will work, how he'll protect himself from losing it all to the tax man. he has no idea. his relatives are saying, can i have some? >> so he has a very steep learning curve. remember how he ran the campaign. he would never run for public office. his way is he is the boss, the decider. so i don't know why we would expect a trump white house to work any different or a trump transition to work any differently. there is a certain amount of competing advice. all these people telling him to quit the twitter and he does what he wants to do. in the end he will pick people who enable donald trump. who were not necessarily idealogs one way or the other.
>> he wants toadies. >> he doesn't want somebody who will stop him. >> that's a problem. and i know you're getting at i. that's a problem. >> you need someone who will say, i love what you're thinking here but you're wrong and you have to fix it. you'll be in big trouble. thank you, kelly o'donnell. fascinating stuff we're doing here. >> can i give you one more? so there is talk about nikki haley being a potential pick. if she were to he will 58 to the cabinet, think about something. who is the lieutenant governor of south carolina? henry mcmaster. one of the earliest trump supporters. one of the most vocal trump supporters. we're looking at nicki haley as a natural figure, big in the republican party. a job for her also would elevate a loyal trump supporter in the lieutenant governor in south carolina. >> now we're talking bank shots.
thank you. coming up, it is a bank shot. it could bring us senator bob corker who is coming up next. and tim ryan from a real rust belt area. he sees a lot of people voting for trump now. he is considering running against nancy pelosi for democratic leader of the house. and the "hardball" roundtable will be here to talk about trump's transition. finally, let me finish with trump watch. getting serious. this is "hardball," the place for politics.
americans are emerging, 62% about, three in five americans say they expect to see major changes in washington during trump presidency. and a majority expect living standards to increase. the poll finds only 29% say trump has had a ammandate to carry out the agenda he campaigned on. i had frequent heartburn,
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mayor rudolph giuliani, reportedly the front-runner. he is making it clear he would like the job. >> now you're being considered for important jobs. the one i hear most often is secretary of state. have you had any conversations with him? >> i have. him and me. since i left mayor accident this is a rough estimate. i've been in 80 countries, 150 different foreign trips. i've been all over the world. very close friends with israel. >> only had raer knight hood from great britain. prime minister netanyahu has been my personal friend for many years. i never to go israel without spending time with him. and continuing world. >> well, giuliani or bolton might face opposition. it's great to have you on, senator rand paul. i was one of those who thought
you would win this whole thing and i was wrong. >> a little bit off. a little bit off there. >> i thought country was ready for freedom from big government in the right way. one thing that he thought they campaigned on was he thought it was stupid, stupid wars. he didn't like regime change. he tackled hillary clinton again and again for taking us into country after country, supporting war in each country. and now we hear he's talking about naming john bolton, mr. neo con hawk, as his secretary of state. how does that sit with you? >> well, one of the reasons i endorsed donald trump was that i liked the fact that he saw the iraq war as a mistake. he thought that regime change was a mistake and the unintended consequences of regime change is that the world was less safe. that our national security was more endangered by regime change. so i like that about donald trump's campaign. one of the reasons i endorsed him. so i want a secretary of state
that understands and has learned from the lessons of the middle east. and i worry that people like john bolton and mayor rudolph giuliani, i would call them unrepentant advocatesor the iraq war. they don't seem to have learned anything from the iraq war. they still defend it. and both have advocated a bomb first ask questions later for iran. and i don't think you want your chief diplomat to be an advocate for war. that would be better for a secretary of war, they might be good for that position. i want someone who is reasonable. not a realist. that sees the world as it is. that person may not always agree with me but i want someone who is an even keel. and i think bob co-worker will be a much better choice. >> why do you think the neo cons think these wars, one after another, have been helpful to really? i accept they may be pro israeli. most americans are. but israel was certainly better
off having these half put together countries, they were clownish leaders, they weren't existentially dangerous to israel. israel could contend with them with their arms behind their back. now we have the islamic state, isis, the whole thing coming apart. and israel much more in danger. why are people, it is such a vulnerable state. >> i think one of the things is that people failed to understand that israel a very pluralistic nation. they have a variety of nations. if you go over there, they have heated debate. there have been many people. the former head of t. i think many would say losing gadhafi and having the rise of isis in libya doesn't make
israel safer. i don't think it makes united states safer. i feel more at risk for terrorists organizing in libya now with gadhafi gone. it doesn't mean i was an advocate of gadhafi or mubarak or any of these people. and yet you have to look at what comes after. if you decide that your world view is to displace these people. i think we should try on determine what is in our best national interests. we shouldn't think, we're going to make the world a perfect democracy and topple assad. what comes after is a very important question. and what comes after the government in iran, what comes next if we bomb iran. so i think we need a more reasonable sort of person and not a bomb thrower to be head of it. but i support donald trump. i want donald trump to pick someone who supports his foreign policy, that understands the iraq war was a mistake and it
hasn't always been to our benefit. >> i will tell you something i haven't told anyone else. i've had some conversations with republican senators and i'm not the only ones with misgivings over rudolph giuliani and bolton. and i haven't met a democrat for either one of them but i've met several republican that's aren't. we have a 52-48 majority. all it would take is two or three republicans to say they can't go along with giuliani and can't go i know what bolton. then i think you would find, there are some that would sail through. i think senator corker would go through. i've probably met 15 democrats in the last two days who have said they would vote for his confirmation but they are very, very worried about bolton and giuliani. >> can you defeat him in an up or down? can you hold him to less than 50 votes? >> it means you would have to have two or they have republicans. i think there are two or three others, i would say the best way to describe them is pro found
misgivings. if giuliani is a great friend of the president-elect, maybe there could be another position where he is at odds with the policy. >> thank you. senator rand paul, just reelected. how much of a trump presiden presidency. trump will seek to bring about a significant recalibration of the existing order in the middle east in favor of russia. away from shiite iran and to the benefit of the sunni gulf states and turkey. well, it was radically different as we said from what most republicans and democrats have advocat advocated. let's watch. >> if putin wants to go knock the hell out of isis, i am all for it 100%.
i can't understand how anybody would be against it. >> i've been looking at the different players and i've been watching assad. i've been pretty good about this over the years. deals are people. i've been looking at assad and saying maybe he is better than the people we're supposed to be backing. >> now it is such a mess over there with everybody involved and the air space is very limited. it is not that big of an area. now world war three over syria? >> a possible pick to be the next secretary of state. what do you think of what you've been hearing about trump and what he said, he's opposed to the iraq war? he opposes the nuclear deal with iran. are you in conformist with those? >> syria has two efforts underway. one is the effort against isis. but there is a whole other conflict underway. that's the civil war taking place between, quote, moderate
syrians, kurds and others. so you have two efforts underway. so yes, i think we could in fact coordinate with russia as it relates to isis. but we're on different sides as it relates to the civil war taking place within the country. so it is much more complicated. and the territory now has gotten very interwoven and overhappened. and even if we deal with isis, if we exterminate isis, we still have this raging civil war which is really the piece that is creating so much devastation to the population there. and you can't really solve that by just dealing with the isis piece. >> how do we get out of there? most americans, and they're generally pro israeli. we know we need oil still. despite the transition with the fossil fuel. we would like to stay out of all
this complexity. we don't know, sunni versus shia. do you give the shia, shia land? separate them all? and hope like the brits, hope that you can keep them apart from each other? what is our goal? >> it could be in syria. i think you are mentioned two different countries. >> so in syria, there has been a concentration. it is possible that over time that is an area that's petitioned. the kurds would love to see that happen. in iraq, and i've met with, and been there and met in various places around the world with the kurdish leadership. and i know that over time they would like for that to happen.
they would like it to be petitioned. we put so much effort. i'm talking about iraq now. we put so much effort into having a unified couny. i do think that kurds over time would have greater autonomy. right now the country should stay as a whole. as they try to route out isis, it is a very different situation than iraq. you have a military and a government that mostly is in control of the country. the two situations are very, very different. >> can you imagine yourself being secretary of state with yourself as president? >> i have to say president-elect trump is demonstrating something that i think could make, create good environment for a secretary of state. that is, people are uncertain about our position in the world and would it give someone, they would have to have to freedom to do this and the direct line to
the president or his representative to ensure that you're always in sync. but there is a chance to really pave the way to a new era. we've had entanglements for many years. we've made a lot of mistakes since about 2001. to develop a little different course of action, people who care deeply about the foreign policy. >> i think it is the greatest job in the world. to be able to recommend our country in the world. thank you very much. up next, can the democratic party work back? the joe biden said the country doesn't talk to those people anymore. and now deep roots to those voters.
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two hospitals in a central blood bank in eastern aleppo have been hit by a bomb killing more than 19 people according to the syrian medical society. the man accused of setting off bombs in new york and new jersey before being injured in a firefight with police has been indicted. he faces terrorism charges and
five counts of attempted murder. and president obama is in germany for meetings with chancellor angela merkel. this week he heads to lima, peru, for a summit. it will be an internal conversation but it is loud and clear. we need to listen to the message and respond. we need to make sure that we are prepared for the next two years in the best possible way. >> a message to our constituents saying we have heard you. we have clearly missed the mark on some conversations and messaging and we'll work on this because we want to make sure that we're an effective caucus and to make sure that donald trump is only a one-term president. >> how we'll fight and re-win the working class people which have been the heart and soul of this party. unfortunately are now working
against democrats. >> a faction they call the minority leader nancy pelosi to delay, put off the leadership of the caucus which was scheduled for tomorrow. she agreed to delay elections until november 30th, the end of this month. which could signal trouble for pelosi which has led house democrats since 2002 and announced she is seeking re-election. she's going for it. one member of her ranks is tim ryan of ohio who said blue collar voters need to vote blue again if they are ever going to tow tack. do people agree with you that the democrats basically have discarded the white working class? they have not included them in their thinking or their appeals? or do other people say, forget about them. they're lost. we'll go with minorities and women with college degrees. that sort of point of view. >> i think most people recognize after tuesday, in what was
billed really as the great blue fire wall. we almost lost minnesota. throws the blue collar folks and they turned away from the democratic party in droves and i think there is a general consensus that we need to get back on that economic message that we're here as democrats to try to create jobs and opportunities. not to train someone for a job that can run a computer, but they can run a backhoe. they take their shower after work. they take their showers after work. >> what about wealthy people with wealthy people's kernels. and sometimes ne rumpb problems. they have different points of view than the average person in youngstown, ohio.
isn't that the problem? money talks? >> no question about it. that's why donald trump says he wants to drain the swamp. let's make sure the campaigns are only two or three months long like they are in great britain. that's the way to go to drain the swamp so we can get back to talking about the real issues that matter to real people and places like youngstown, ohio. >> are you going to run against nancy pelosi at the end of the month? >> i'm not sure. we're having a lot of conversations now. my goal was to get this election moved. i didn't agree that it should be tomorrow. we need to talk about it. we need to talk about it. the obamas are gone, the bidens are gone, no one left at the dnc. what direction do we want america to go in sf what is the democratic party 2.0?
what is the next iteration of the party? we'd better start thinking about it and aligning our policies. within this tragedy that happened on tuesday, it is opportunity. great leaders and great organizations find opportunity in tough times like this. >> maybe we need fewer hyphenated democrats and more unhyphenated democrats. regular democrats. that could be the solution. wraed and butter, working wages. the heart of the party. you have a tough road to hoe. >> i love nancy pelosi. she can't get blamed. the question is, can we take house back is this we have to go to all 50 states. red districts, red states. who is the messenger that can go into those communities and pull those trump voters back into the
democratic fold? that's the question we have to ask ourselves. >> i am impressed with your great new guys there, women, i assume, too. up next, the "hardball" roundtable. the chaos inside the trump transition that calls for trump to yank back bannon. he is the jonah on that ship. liberty mutual stood with me when i was too busy with the
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every time there's a new team, there is always one person i call them jonah. the whale wants to get that jonah. they're really outraged to be chief strategist. your thinking, your feeling? >> i understand. i understand. just alone the issue of breitbart and dealing with the breitbart.com. i can remember breitbart in the beginning of the obama administration caused the problem with shirley they areaud. they misinformed the public about a statement that she did not say. it was critical. it was a race issue. >> they made her look anti-white. >> then his alliances about certain groups in this nation that are not inclusive. i'm thinking with something that happened before this president came into office. >> that was the jonah in that case. you're shaking your they had
hardest. >> i think we're kind of making breitbart's point, right? they have figured out some secret sauce to getting an enormous amount of attention on divisive subjects. and that's why. >> he is a person who even for the, i'm sure, the overwhelming majority of trump voters who do not ascribe to all the things that have been published in breitbart news. the ultimate insider blow it up person. having a huge role, is what they want. they're saying they won. >> trump supporters want bannon where he is. trump wants him in the white house. not out of the white house.
at the end of the day, it looks like a share power agreement. >> between him and reince priebus. >> i understand and i respect that. he helped him become what he is today. we've seen it before. hate. we've sustain culmination of this. and we have yet to understand when donald trump says make america great again, what decade? what century is he talking about in and i know you're laughing but as an african, as a woman and an african-american. >> she's trying to be nice to you. >> i like her. okay, okay. >> that's called a charming approval. >> as an african-american, as a woman. i understand my history. there are immigrant nations who are scared as well. immigrants who are here, they're scared that their parents will be deported. there's a lot of stuff to figure out. that hate leads to a lot of bad things and i don't disagree.
it is completely true. the reality is bannon is not going to be operating just de facto. there will be at lot of checks. >> the loyalty. >> if you're trying to unify a nation, do you have next to you someone who is anti-who is other? >> sps the way trump sees them? >> as loyal. >> i don't want to gussy this guy up. if you're lincoln, which trump is not. you have a general grant. a lot of bloody wars. but he did win the war. trump sees him as the general. they see him as a guy had went in and won the war. >> certainly we keep maerg loyalty and a small circle are
hugely important. i think, i do think it is interesting to note that breitbart, the original breitbart and bannon were not very close to trump a long time ago but they've been brought in. >> he is his king maker. >> this is difficult to deal with. the more you pull, the more he holds. sometimes you have to know when to fold. this is not a good sign. the roundtable is sticking with us.
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that he gives me an interview. and donald trump just nodded and the president said, she's one of the best we have. >> are you that easy? >> no! i want an interview with donald trump. >> we all do. >> you got one. >> president trump is likely to go to flint, michigan, the day after he's sworn in. his advisers feel it would not only be very symbolic about rebuilding america's infrastructure, but he might be able to solve flint's water crisis when no one else has. >> that's a good move. >> sticking with the travel theme, there's pressure building for trump's first foreign trip to be to israel or to include israel. the netanyahu government was surprised by the outcome but delighted because they absolutely loathe hillary clinton and are working through j jerod kushner to make that happen. >> how is that going? it's always canada first. when we return, let me finish with trump watch. it's getting weird. we're watching "hardball."
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apprentice. the face of the contestant as trump tells him or her they failed to make the grade, you're fired. it's the same deal right now there in trump towers. he listens to the plaes and pitches of those hoping to get his okay for a cabinet post. does he go for the guy who is campaigning right out there or the candidate that could be getting people to dump on the other guy who is out there campaigning? or does he fire them both by naming someone else altogether different? what else? what's this force, this death squad that's in trump tower throwing people out the window? that's telling anyone connected with governor chris christie, you're dead. it's telling the anti-trump guy not to bother pushing for jobs who were against trump up until last tuesday night. is this death squad going to go into the white house with trump? is this mysterious murderous voice going to be prowling the halls of the west wing? up there on a high floor in trump tower donald trump sits in the eye of the hurricane. he says he's the only one who knows who is on the final list.
not even mike pence knows. trump enjoys the gladiatorial spectacle but he also knows who is leading that death squad. you think it might be him? that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in" -- >> the forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer. >> a week after winning, trump changes his tune. >> we'll get your taxes down. >> tonight as the plan to privatize medicare heats up, is donald trump already abandoning his populous campaign promises. >> he won, but i'm just making the point, you better take a look at what he won on. >> then meet the member of the trump transition team floating a registry for muslim immigrants. the real world implications of tweets from the world's most powerful man. >> when you give me a bad story, i have a method of fighting back. >> plus hillary clintoniv