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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  November 23, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm PST

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and it was something that was caused by, you know, the hands of another man. when you can't have access to clean water. thousands of homes to go. people not give up, to see a city not give up after what has been done to them, after they're still having to fix this problem but as you make your list of things to be thankful for tomorrow, now that oscar brown's house got new pipes today, it would not be a terrible idea to think about a 4-year-old american boy who may soon get to take a bath in a full tub for the first time in more than half his life. now it's time for the last word. ari melber sitting in for lawrence. >> good evening. >> good evening to you. well done. as a rising republican star governor nikki haley accepts their offer to be u.n. tonight with a must-see reality check on trump's pick for
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education secretary, billionaire betsy devos. and how to talk to your relatives who might have voted for another candidate. >> when not berating the media from his golden tower, the president-elect has been busy filling his cabinet. >> we turn to two prominent republican women. governor nikki haley to serve as his ambassador to the united nations. >> it's a mixed foreign policy picture, and no foreign policy experience. devos to be his education secretary. against her. >> mitt romney they say tops the list for secretary of state. >> donald trump is a phony. a fraud. >> you've got to surround yourself with people who will take the bullet for you rather >> dr. ben carson has confirmed he has been offered a cabinet position. he is not qualified to run a federal department. carson suffers from pathological disease. i'm not saying it.
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>> based on the low expectations that the trump campaign created for trump, it could be worse. >> good evening and welcome to "the last word" from seattle, washington. donald trump is working on what his transition team promises will be a diverse cabinet. but today he is also facing unexpected resistance from within the ranks of his own supporters after rumors that donald trump is considering one of his harshest critics mitt romney to be secretary of state, biggest supporters blasted the >> when you go after a person who is the nominee of your party who has been dually nominated by the voters, and then you are savaging the voters. you're not just savaging donald trump. all those donald trump voters >> he was trump's most vicious and most explicit opponent all through the campaign on the republican side.
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and to list all the things he said and think gee, is this guy but also, governor romney wanted to be president, not secretary of state. when he goes oversea, is he going to be the secretary of he going to be mitt romney's own secretary of state. >> tough talk. but there was little republican opposition to president-elect trump naming two cabinet picks today as he announced his first appointments who are not we should note white males. president-elect trump named betsy devos, a republican donor and advocate for school choice secretary. so much about, south carolina governor nikki haley. governor in her state's history, a daughter of indian immigrants. and she will be ambassador to the u.n. governor haley notable trumps among his appointments i should note. she is a young rising star of the gop and has been embraced by the party establishment, even though she was also all along a critic of trump.
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now before eventually backing him, she criticized him in her high profile state of the union response, you might remember that she endorsed marco rubio. and in february, she said this >> i will not stop until we fight a man that chooses not to disavow the kkk, that is not a part of our party. that's not who we want as president. we will not allow that in our >> strong words. trump criticized haley, tweeting south carolina are embarrassed by nikki haley. well, today he was praising her, quote, proven track record of bringing people together and saying she is a proven deal maker. of deals. but donald trump and the republicans, if you look else here that is actually just weird. u.n. ambassadorship is this really big appointment. now a lot of people do think that. don't.
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the u.n. is a cabinet level position right now only because president obama made it a cabinet level position, a change that he made when he took office as the president does have the power to do. but keep in mind the last two republican administration, george h.w. bush and george w. bush actually demoted the u.n. ambassador from a cabinet position. john bolton even once said this. >> there is no united nations. there is an international community that occasionally can be led by the only real power left in the world, and that's the united states. when we can get others to go >> so on what is shaping up as something of an informal u.n. day for the trump administration, it's worth to use this appointment to promote haley as a big new face for the party. and it's a long ways from what top republicans actually thought
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about promoting the u.n. post itself, the substantive thing about. he has been plenty critical of >> the united nations is not a it's not a friend to freedom. it's not a friend even to the united states of america where as you know, it has its home. >> joining us now, david corn liz mayer, and former online strategist to governors walker and perry as well as john allen. and community and content for side 7 wire. good evening, everybody. david. just a lot of excitement about filling it? or do you see anything on here? we're in the roseanne, roseanna dana phase of the transition which is when everybody says never mind. never mind that i vowed to fight
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you for all of eternity because you're a racist, you're a bigot, or i thought you were an embarrassment to your state. never mind. those words didn't make a difference. yes, we'll have to see if it remains a cabinet position. but, you know, nikki hailly is an impressive governor, a politician. foreign policy experience other than maybe trying to get business into south carolina. so putting her in this position, unlike what president obama and their choices shows that donald trump really doesn't care about the ideas the person has holding this job. and again, we see in his foreign policy world, there is no coherent view, no coherent strategy. from john bolton to mitt romney as secretary of state, it just we'll have to wait to see at the end of the day if there is anybody within his circle who
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has an integrated plan for how to deal with the rest of the world. someone that a lot of republicans have been excited about for some understandable reasons. it's hard to follow the match. newt gingrich sort of took his turn at explaining it and saying place and she is tough, which i suppose is true as far as it goes. >> well, i think she is a very, very successful governor. she is a very smart woman. effective at the united nations, as effective as any american can be in an organization which has an enormous hostility to our >> liz, i guess the point i'm getting at is even if one agrees as the u.n. as a place that can be inhospitable to the u.s. or to our allies or to some of our human rights priorities, wouldn't you want someone whose got experience cutting their teeth in international circles
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to be that tough ambassador? >> well, i think the thing that is actually most important in this job is first and foremost, you need somebody who is capable of being a uniter, not a divider, and somebody who is capable of being diplomatic, diplomat. it's a very important one. i think at the moment, maybe past republican presidents sort of the importance that we may see president-elect trump treat it with. at the moment, we are facing a lot of very, very serious grave complex challenges around the world. be a more important job. and i think if you're working in that role, i understand the concerns people are raising but i would actually argue that it's more important that you capable of dealing with really tough challenges that go to the root of people's emotions, their identities, and overcoming them. and if you logistic at how she handled that confederate flag issue, if you lack at how she handled bringing people together carolina, what she may not have
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in terms of line items on her cv, she certainly has in terms of personal qualities. and i think that will stand her in very good stead. make, thing is a lot of utility in putting people into diplomatic positions who have personal experiences and connections abroad. she obviously does in terms of bringing business into south does come from a family of indian immigrants. that probably does put her in a better position to understand some of the concerns that, say, the country of india is actually raising on the world stage that is going to be important. they are a very powerful and growing international leader. to the uk relationship. >> let me bring in john allen and then back to david. john, go ahead. >> that's pretty microscopic, the one country. country. it's the united kingdom also. look, the u.s. u.n. job is one of an agent to come back and carry information to the president and carry out the president's will at the united
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nations. is not a job where you're going a whole lot of freelancing. i think what is really going on here in a much bigger and more important thing is that nikki haley is being well-positioned for a future run for president. she doesn't as has been pointed out by david earlier, doesn't have foreign policy experience. but after this job she is going have foreign policy experience. and that's something very, very difficult for governors to get. >> well, sort of -- i'm sorry, it's a little funny to say after she gets the promotion she'll have the experience. i mean -- >> i'm not saying that she is the necessarily the right person but i'm saying that there is a political desire on the part of the republican party to elevate her at some point. and this gives her a much better resume. >> david, then liz. we're going to go david and then liz. it's not just being a water carrier to and from the u.n. susan rice put together a coalition and got a great vote
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for president obama on how to deal with libya. it took a lot of expertise. she was a national -- >> which was a terrible decision. >> she was an agent for that a bad decision. >> actually, what she did there and a working with the chinese and the russians and germans, brits and the english and everybody else was feet of diplomacy. whether you agreed with the policy or not. president wanted. have really good understanding of the equities and the histories and the interests of all these other countries. and she pulled that together. that is just not the same as having the type of moment that nikki haley had after the so it's not just -- it's an important job, whether you're dealing with climate change or not, to know the substance and to know the players. forth to the white house. >> sure.
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>> last word on this? from an indian family given india influence with colonialism which continues to expert in the middle east may be better position than i think what david is giving for to understand some of the nuances that are going to be relevant to deal cutting with with regard to some of the biggest foreign policy facing right now. characteristics also do matter. she is a very diplomatic person. she is a uniter. there really isn't anybody that i've ever encountered who has met her hasn't like herd and hasn't felt comfortableore we go to ben carson real briefly when he was asked. the untraditional style here, >> there are a lot of things that were put on the table. >> john, what do you make of the way they're sort of releasing
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out dribs and drabs of who is going to be in the cabinet? >> they're trying to signal different things at different is being talked about right now is because nikki haley was the person who was not a white male who a decision had been made about. top cabinet positions. a defense secretary, we think it's going to be jim mattis, has not been named yet. the top positions in the cabinet, many of them have not been named yet. as far as ben carson goes, who knows what is going on. ben carson said he wasn't qualified to head a department after he ran for president. this is a circus on the level of donald trump's campaign in terms of the leaks and the counter-leaks and counter espionage is going on within that campaign right now, within that transition. >> and what does this guy know about urban policy and housing? >> as much as we do about brain surgery. knows about the u.n. this is a real problem. it's not something -- it's a circus, but it's a bad circus.
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>> we're out of time. but it is a circus question of who is qualified. david corn, liz mair, john allen, thank you for a lively discy thanksgiving. i think i learned a few things. donald trump's choice to be education secretary? later, new report about the role of the trump kids as reports indicate trump junior was talking about is the role of stay with us. o is for ordinarily i wouldn't. l is for layers of luxury. a is for alll the way back. r is for read my mind. and i... can't see a thing. s... see you in the morning.
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donald trump has another woman to thank for his new u.n. ambassador nikki haley, hillary haley said the reason i actually ran for office is because of hillary clinton. everybody was telling me i i had small children, i should start at the school board level. i went to birmingham university and hillary clinton was the keynote speaker on a leadership
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institute. and clinton said when it comes to women running for office, there will be everybody that but that's all the reasons why we need you to do it. and i walked it of there thinking that's it, i'm running nice little story there. must-see reality check on trump's other big appointment today, billionaire betsy devos. ♪ ♪ see ya next year.
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>> school choice may be one campaign promise donald trump is sticking to today. devos as education secretary. she is a michigan republican, philanthropist and advocate for what conservative reformers call the school choice movement. many teachers representatives object the choice is usually a cover for privatization. lilly garcia says devos' efforts have underminded that she says takes away funding from local schools to fund private schools at taxpayers' expense. others note devos has no formal work experience in public education. for her part she has pledged to make transformational change that includes every student in america has the opportunity to fulfill his or her highest joining us now, a guest i'm excited about to have tonight, michael moore, academy award-winning documentary filmmaker, and of course a good evening. happy thanksgiving season to you, michael.
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and i believe you're also a university of michigan graduate. is that correct, ari? >> i turning the education department over to amway. the devos family is the amway family in michigan. her father-in-law founded it. her husband now runs it, along with others in western michigan they're very, very, very conservative, very dutch and they were the type of christians that never needed to be born again because they never left the core values of what and the devos family has probably given as much in some elections in the
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past, even more soft money, betsy devos has admitted this, to republican party politics than anyone else, any other family in the country. and that would at times include the koch brothers. so you have a version of the koch brothers here. it would be like one of the kochs was just appointed secretary of education. this is an awful, awful thing to have happen. we never use the word "choice." the schools of choice and all of this. as some union leaders have said, when you quoted them, the privatization of our public schools. and especially taking choice away from poor kids. because those tax dollars go to these privatized schools, these so-called charter schools that then hurt the kids left behind in the public schools. so this is -- again, another one of his appointments that are is
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meant to essentially what he promised to do which is blow up >> well, you liken it to the koch brothers maybe taking over an industry they would care about. a lot of the criticism and reporting there has been that in just profiteering. and so it's all just pursuing profits on a different terrain. is that your concern here, or is it also that there is a sort of an ideology or actual policy view that schools would run better if they were all they are certainly ideologues, the devoss. and amway, which essentially is a form of a pyramid scheme, which, you know, i don't think we would teach that in school. the values that form that kind of business, i don't think we would teach that in school. but these are -- the devoss are ideologues. belief that donald trump is not an ideologue. he has one ideology. and that's the ideology of
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donald j. trump. that's who he believes in. that's everything he believes. does it benefit donald j. trump. and he'll make his decisions based on that. has been putting in and nominating to these -- into these initial positions. and this is a really bad one. this is -- they have so ruined things in michigan. they basically bought and paid for a state legislature and senate that in 2012 made michigan the birthplace of the modern labor movement a so-called right-to-work state. >> right. unions to organize and collect their dues from their members. and it -- for -- they pulled have used it as a model elsewhere. for a very long time. >> well, and michael, you make that point about trump and where he stands. it's become popular among some
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circles in washington to say oh, he is so flexible. look what we're seeing post election. degree is his flexibility would empower the people around him. even radicals on some of these issues, that flexibility is >> yeah. >> let me fit in a break because i know you're staying with us. >> okay. with michael moore. we're going fit in a quick break. to talk to your family members this thanksgiving if they may stay with us.
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here is a fact people keep forgetting about modern elections. there are weeks of voting, and in many places weeks of counting. that donald trump won. but that counting does keep shrinking his mandate. consider this. donald trump right now has a lower share of the vote as counted than mitt romney did when he lost last cycle. trump simply did not grow the gop's share of the electorate. he managed the turnout in the states that mattered and his deficit in relation to clinton is almost two million. we all know trump is 100% president-elect. overall is relevant to how congressional opponents size up it's relevant to people who want to reform our electoral college. and patiently it's even relevant to donald trump, who said this.
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i think the popular vote would have been easier in a true sense because you'd go to a few places. i think that's the genius of the electoral college. electoral college until now." while this is most lay theoretical debate, there are calls to dig deeper into how the popular vote disparity was greater this year than any other time in history. you may have heard some the battleground states of wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania to ensure the integrity of our elections. now elites don't tend to respond favorably to this kind of thing you. moore's documentary "fahrenheit 9/11" showing what happened in 2000 when members of the congressional black caucus were challenging bush's win while al gore preside over a very unusual joint session of >> is the
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objection in writing and signed by a member of the house and a senator? >> the objection is in written. and i don't care that it is not signed by a member of the senate. >> the chair will advise that the rules do care. >> not a single senator came to the aid of the african americans in congress. one after another, they were told to sit down and shut up. >> it's a sad day in america, mr. president, when we can't find a senator to sign >> the gentleman will suspend. >> michael, why was it so important to you to spotlight that often forgotten aspect of the 2000 situation, and why do you find that so many political elites in the establishment i
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think in both parties and definitely in washington are so hostile to any discussion of double-checking recounts, et cetera? little apple cart upset. they don't want -- these are the same elites that told us the candidates issue would be jeb bush and hillary clinton. president. people are sick and tired of this. this is one of the reasons why trump did as well as he did. because they're tired of this attitude. and trump's right. he would probably be the largest advocate of wanting the popular vote, of course if it didn't affect him, that would be donald j. trump. situation where once again we've allowed the person that the majority of americans wanted. that would be hillary clinton, to not take office. this has happened now twice in 16 years. trump has no mandate. i agree with the recount. in michigan they're either still counting.
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0.2% between the two candidates. and hillary's count keeps and it really is -- i think it's down to 9,000 votes now, or roughly, if two people who voted for trump had voted for hillary per precinct, hillary would have won michigan by now. we wouldn't even be having this count. recounts. electoral college. we need to challenge the conscience of the electors. this needs to be said. yes, the elites don't like it being said. you don't see many people on tv i think there is a whole host of things here that have to be done. passing laws that say their electors have to follow whoever won the national popular vote. passed that law now that equal about 178 electors. they need 270 in order for it to actually work. avenues here.
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trump must be stopped. and if it's a legal challenge, if it's an electoral college challenge, or if it's just the fact that right now people are watching this, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of rapid response teams of citizens being formed in every city, village, and town across america. together. there is no central organization it's actually just happening on its own. they're demonstrating. they're holding candlelight vigils. they're contacting their members of congress. >> well, let me ask you this. there is a political piece to it's always curious how republicans say even when they seem to lose the majority, they claim to have the mandate. here the democrats have more votes, but don't seem to be acting like it much yet in washington. democracy question, which is in your view as someone who is
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obviously spotlighted a lot of outsider issues, is there a tipping point in your mind? when something is close enough that you say oh, it was 100,000 vote difference on the margin and the electoral college is the rules versus half a million versus a million versus now 2 million. where we have a split that is 4, 5, 6 million, at some point there is a wake-up call and people say wa people -- this is people stop me on the streets and say how can this be? how can this be if she won by over two million votes? we won. we're the majority. the majority have spoken. and they don't want donald j. trump as president. so why is this -- why is this happening? because of an archaic law from the 1700s that was set up essentially to please the slave states. to help a president-elect who spewed racism throughout his campaign benefits from this law from the 1700s that was set up
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to appease the slave states to get them to go along with it because they had smaller populations. so they invented this electoral college. said well, just because it's the law, it's not right. just because the law says if you're african american, you go sit at the back of the bus. well, some laws have to be broken. some laws have to be done away with. when it goes against the will of the people and against what is morally right. this man take the office of the presidency of the united states when more than two million people have said we don't want him. a margin over hillary, over him. more than two million folks. >> right. no, look. seem to want to touch for all sorts of reasons. my answer in part is the constitution governs it this way. so until enough states, as you mentioned in that process earlier, make a fix, we're living with this constitution.
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but it certainly merits discussion. i want to make what we call sometimes in the news business a hard turn and ask you what's the best approach, in your view, as both a politico, but also an artist, if you will, to have a pleasant thanksgiving that is meaningful, that has got dialogue, that has honesty but also diplomacy for people who find they have big political differences tomorrow? >> put the stuffing in the first of all. no stove top stuffing. number one. top. i think -- i've been saying this for 20 years. i wrote this in my first book 20 years ago. how to talk to you a little how to be kind, how to bring them along. and i believe in all those but i think tomorrow, i think it's really important that you just identify the people at the table
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that are of like mind. and if there are representative majority of them voted for and talk about what are the things we need to be doing right now? the republicans on january 21st are going to be there in congress. bill after bill after bill. law after law that he will sign immediately. it will be so much damage that will be done so quickly. and liberals are going to be whoa, what happened? wait -- wait -- wait a minute. wait! no. you must start tomorrow. you're with family. start organizing. start contacting your members of congress. washington, d.c. on inauguration day. i'm telling you, if you wait, we have to go to commercial break. i'm hearing in my ear. >> that's part of it is.
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>> but thank you for having me on and letting me say that. >> happy thanksgiving. very interesting to hear from you. the heat. michael moore, always a pleasure. >> donald trump appears to be the only person in america doesn't think water boarding is effective. ♪ come on, wake up!!! come on, why ya sleepin'? come on! what time is it? it's go time. come on. let's go, let's go, let's go. woooo hoooo!! yeah!!
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breathe easier with your vicks vaporub. soothing cough relief that starts working instantly. someone who would advise him against waterboarding, even though trump's position on that issue appears increasingly muddy. have seen with "the new york times," the president-elect said james mattis' position on waterboarding. mattis for secretary of defense. here is what trump said exactly to the times. >> general mattis is a strong, highly dignified man. i met with him and i asked him that question. waterboarding.
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he said -- i was surprised. he said i've never found it to be useful. he said i've always found give me a pack of cigarettes and a with that than i do with >> and trump went on the say that when he said that, quote, i'm not saying it changed my mind. look, we have people that are chopping off heads and drowning people in steel cages, and we're not allowed to water board. but i tell you what? i was impressed by that answer. just think about this for a second. you would think that donald trump's conversation with mattis really heard the idea that other types of interrogations work in fact, investigators and intelligence officials have waterboarding is not only inhumane and under our current also often ineffective and even counterproductive. alley soufani, who used interrogation and then spoke
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about the waterboarding of other individuals, including enemy combatant abu zub zubaida and he testified about what worked better in 2009. >> from my experience, i to use what has become known as enhanced interrogation these techniques from an operational perspective are and harmful to our efforts to defeat al qaeda. >> that's the view from someone who knows. another experiencedahead. we studied medieval times. not since medieval times have people seen what's going on. it's the phillips' lady!
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p is for permission to indulge. o is for out of this world. l is for loving the seasonal cuisine. a is for access to everything, including the aisle. r is for reclining in tailor-made bedding. and i, must be dreaming. s... so long, jet lag. polaris, from united. i would bring backwater board, and i would bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding. >> joining me now, malcolm
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nance, counter terror intelligence official and a msnbc contributor. and also author of "defeating isis." walk us through how this works and whether donald trump is charitably late to the party in understanding the contours of the debate. >> well, let's just start this conversation off correctly. because there is a lot of misinformation out there. waterboarding is a torture. it is a torture that the united states government gave capital punishments to in people in world war ii who had tortured our service members. it is a technique used by the nazis. north koreans. and now isis has actually tortured captured hostages with this. is an effective intelligence technique, it is not a tool of the intelligence community. boards ever used in the department of defense. that stands for honor and
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dignity and human rights of its own service members would ever take as a tool. this is an emotional tool that donald trump is using in order to sound like a tough hombre. >> you make -- you make such an important point conceptually. his nominee, jeff sessions for attorney general and trump have repeatedly cited the nature of our enemies to justify this conduct. sense? do regardless of what we do to the enemy? >> you're absolutely right. this is not a question of if we want to start acting like isis, we want to start acting like the nazis, then go ahead and start using those techniques. the fabric of america's stand for honor as it has stood since 1777 when george washington issued standing orders for the campaign in quebec that prisoners were to be treated
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with dignity. prisoners were to be used for intelligence collection purposes showing our better angels. by not doing that. we would be actually violating the standing orders of george washington himself. so if we don't even believe in built on, and we think that just destroying those values and dishonoring everyone who has satisfactory in order to get no intelligence, then what we are just fundamentally doing is for. >> malcolm nance, appreciate you sharing both your experience and your ethical view there. >> it's my pleasure. >> we're going fit in a quick break and come right back with our politics panel. on msnbc. ♪
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donald trump jr. held a meeting
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on syria with pro-russian figures, and it's raising questions about the role of trump's children in the white house and abroad. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ how else do you think he gets around so fast? take the reins this holiday and get the mercedes-benz you've always wanted during the winter event.
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now lease the 2017 gla250 for $329 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer. mary buys a little lamb. one of millions of orders on this company's servers. accessible by thousands of suppliers and employees globally. but with cyber threats on the rise, mary's data could be under attack. with the help of at&t, and security that senses and mitigates cyber threats, their critical data is safer than ever. giving them the agility to be open & secure. because no one knows & like at&t. "wall street journal" reports today that donald trump's eldest son donald trump jr. held some private talks in paris last month with diplomats, political and business leaders. and the goal was working with russia reportedly to end that nearly six-year-long civil war in syria. in an interview this week with "the new york times" editorial
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staff meanwhile, the eyebrows by proposing that his son-in-law jared kushner could help bring peace as some kind of envoy to the middle east. quote, jared is a very smart guy. would love to be able to be the one that made peace with israel and the palestinians. he knows the region, knows the knows the players. joining me now a political reporter for "the new york times" and opinion columnist for "the washington post." katherine, starting with you, have been people like george mitchell or richard holbrooke has played that roving role. people who have basically been ambassador posts. what do you make of this idea and the qualifications of the >> yes, generally it is not a member of the president or president-elect, his extended family. that is correct. this is a very important role in
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the administration on the foreign policy front. on any front, to be clear. considering delegating these duties to his son-in-law is incredibly troubling, particularly since he has said repeatedly that there will be a wall between himself, the soon to be president, and his family because members of his family, in this case, jared kushner's wife ivanka, will be running the business. would be a poor choice. a great important point there that including in your newspaper. even if you put the business wall aside, one of the important things about envoys is you send them usually. they do intense negotiation, and then sometimes you remove them. you fire them. as part of the complex international chess that goes on.
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level be boxing america in our strategic options to have a family member grandfathered into that role because they're harder >> one would expect. i mean maybe trump can turn to a daughter-in-law instead or a grandchild or an uncle. i don't know. i'm sure there are plenty of members of his extended family who are happy to raise their hands for this position. i would again, you know, suggest that for the reasons that we have laid out, they would be bad choices as well. regardless of how smart they are, to be clear. >> what we're talking about is many of these people, especially for their age for people in their 30s have achieved a lot. they're just not substantively knowledgeable. normal background vetting to be a state department diplomat, let alone mid east diplomat. let me read you the other part that donald trump having finally gotten this far to get intelligence briefings isn't taking them very often. he has received only two since
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the surprise electing victory. a frequency that is notably lower than his predecessors. officials note pence taking them >> it's hard to say. in some ways you can judgment and say he is not taking this seriously. he says, of filling all these cabinet position, in the middle of transferring and is preparing himself and preparing the people around him to take office. so in some ways, and at least from the reporting it seems as though yes, this might be lower than other presidents. but this isn't something that is historically low if you look at decades of other presidents. i think it's hard to say, especially as someone who obviously has no idea what are in the briefings, you have an idea of course that they're the world. taking these briefings while doing other work, of course vice president-elect mike pence is looking at these briefings. i think donald trump is making a judgment that he needs to be doing the briefings instead of
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>> there is nothing to say that he can't be doing both, of course. troubling about the fact that he has reportedly shown very little curiosity about getting up to speed on what is going on in the rest of the world in what his duties and challenges might be as they lie ahead is that he showed very little curiosity and interest in getting up to speed during the campaign as well. so arguably, he is starting out with a much greater deficit of awareness and of fluency in many of these foreign policy issues his other predecessors have been. defending him, but he is also taking the time to pick out to be the people that will actually be making those decisions and filling those posts in that way. so of course it's up to your viewers and other people to decide what he is doing. but i think the idea is that he is making this case that he is also busy. well, it's very popular nowadays. he certainly is busy. our briefing tonight is over.
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so thank you both for joining. you've been watching the last word. wonderful thanks giving in time for your family. chris hayes is up next. "hardball" with chris matthews trump's new hires. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. trump's transition. many as a rising star in the republican party. u.s. ambassador to the united nations. candidacy. of the key diplomatic posts.

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