tv MSNBC Live MSNBC December 3, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PST
broke out at a two-story warehouse party. you see pictures here. the sheriff department saying officials fear that death toll could rise to 40. >> this is a very sensitive time for our community. very sensitive time for the families, and we would like to assist them in verifying whether their loved one was or was not inside the building. >> scott cohn is live on the scene. you were covering not only what was discussed during that briefing, but since the fire hit late last night. what would you say would be the headline right now coming out of that news briefing? >> since the last time we spoke, the coroner's officials, the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, all the investigators are now just now able to get into this building, more than 12 hours after the fire broke out.
it's been that much of a challenge to get in there. even now it is not a very safe place to be. the order of business as you heard in the press conference earlier is to identify victims, try and account for all these people that are still missing. then begin to investigate what happened, why it happened and they start with the worst case scenario which is arson. they are not saying that it is. they have not designated it is a crime scene but that is something they look at as they try to figure out what happened here. what we know is it has been described as an are theist colony, an event space, there was a party going on last fight. whether the fire broke out in that party or as something that was related to the performers there or something else. as one of the officials said, something as simple as a cigarette, we don't know yet what we do know is the fire went up really fast. at least nine people dead, some 25 others unaccounted for.
officials said they are preparing for as many as 30 or 40 bodies. >> as you know, this is an area bay area outside of san francisco where all the warehouses are there. you have the major train lines which stop and load their traditionally over the last bunch of decades. given this is a warehouse, traditionally industrial, was this a permitted warehouse party? was this a converted warehouse where they were holding this occasion? >> the answer to your second question is yes. it was converted from whatever its original industrial use was into this artist colony and events space. whether there were permits for the party and what the history of this space is in terms of complaints and things like that, officials are not confirming yet. they say it is something they are looking into. >> one of the questions here as
we look at the causes, and you brought it up a second ago here, is whether or not it is arson. i want to play what we said regarding that potential. >> there is no reason yet to suspect arson. however, you have to work these investigations at the worst case scenario and downgrade from there. >> we are very much focused on identifying those who are still missing, locating those who have suffered loss inside who are deceased. >> traditionally, west oakland which are close to, very diverse community. economically challenged. the question here about arson might play into all those thematics. >> it might.
they go from the worst-case scenario and work their way back. they have a big task force of local, state and federal investigators that will be going through here. we are not going to know anything necessarily any time soon. we know from everything we've seen and heard about it was a cluttered space. there was a lot going on. if it's an artists' space, who knows what flammable items are there. >> the reason i bring up the past and economic issues related to why this may have happened, smoke alarms. these things were built during a time when codes were different compared to what would be required today. that is what i was alluded to there. we'll keep touching base with you. you are trying to gather more information. the concern is there might be foreloss of life than we know at the moment. nine confirmed killed.
we will have a press briefing soon. thank you for that. we are going to shift gears here and move to politics. china has issued a formal complaint with the united states over president-elect donald trump's phone call with the newly aletted leader of taiwan. the chinese foreign minister characterizing the call as a, quote, little trick. kelly o'donnell joins me with the latest from the tmp transition team. what are you hearing there? >> i can tell you there is concern about how this may play from those who are in the diplomatic circles, but there is more of a confident approach from those who are allies of donald trump saying this is a way to show with the kind of call he had with the president of taiwan something no american leader has done in almost four decades because we don't have formal relations with taiwan, only with the people's republic of china. they say donald trump is showing he is a different kind of leader and a place like china, which has complicated interests with
the u.s., should maybe be put on notice without going too far. kellyanne conway says there was no intention to stir up diplomatic noise here but the new president planning to have calls with leaders from around the world. for china, this is complicated because they do not want taiwan to be seen as on even footing with one leader from that island that is self-governing but considered a part of china and the next u.s. president. is this a big deal? there are diplomats and people that work in foreign relations that say it's unsettling, unnerving and unclear what consequences there may be. others saying it's just a phone call. the policy of the united states towards china remains the same. and no indication donald trump would change it. it is something when you think of one phone call amid the dozens of calls with world leaders he's had and is getting a lot of attention. donald trump tweeted about this saying the u.s. has military sales with taiwan, a financial,
economic relationship, though not formay a country-to-country relationship. today on twitter, he's not been involved with this. tweeting about playing golf and advocating for the one senate race still undetermined in louisiana. >> kelly o'donnell, thank you so much. while the long-term diplomatic fallout from the call remains unclear, white house nsc spokesperson reiterated the current administration's commitment to the long-standing one china policy. hans nichols is at the white house for us. we have what the president-elect is saying and what the current administration might be doing and reacting to this. as you well know here, and kelly o'donnell was alluding to that, this relationship is so careful, so delicate you cannot even use the word nation or country when alluding to the island of
taiwan. >> delicate is an excellent way to put it. when you think the way the chinese behaved toward the white house, they are very concerned about optics. i recall when the dalai lama was visiting the personal residence here not officially the west wing. you remember issue with the runway. china is very sensitive. in general, we've seen china test the new american president this could be the case of the new american president before he's even president testing china. so far, it appears as though china is muted in their reaction. they lodged a foreign complaint. we heard the foreign minisr saying they didn't want to take this too seriously. they almost seem to be giving donald trump a bit of a pass. >> hans nichols at the white house, thanks for the very
latest on that. kellyanne conway also reacting to some of the criticism coming towards president-elect trump after that call. the president-elect's knowledge of u.s. policy is what she commented on in this statement here. >> this is the president-elect, his administration, he'll be commander in chief and president of the united states imminently. he either will disclose or not disclose the full content of that conversation. he is well aware of what u.s. policy has been. >> joining me is nan hayworth of new york and former u.s. ambassador to the united nations. he was member of president george w. bush's transition team. thank you both for being with us here. a former u.n. spokesman for george w. bush told "the washington post," it was totally planned. it was a simple courtesy call. people need to calm down. stuart, how big of a deal is
this? if you were to rank it 1-10, 10 being a big deal and tell me why. >> i think it's probably a 3 or 4 because i do think china -- think about the candidate's rhetoric towards china. they are waiting to see what relationship they can establish. i thought it was quite clever for this to be an incoming call to trump, which doesn't necessarily reflect the national status of taiwan, but it does show he's going to be a different guy. taiwan's been a plank in the base republican platform for a long time. a lot of base conservatives think taiwan got the short end of the stick in the normalization of relations with china. >> nan, when we look at this call, perhaps a tip of an iceberg that will be future international diplomatic strategy for this new administration. do you see this as a potential
new trump world order, basically what he did with u.s. politics turning it on edge he could do the same with international diplomacy? >> one thing we know about president-elect trump is that he is very talented negotiator. he knows how to develop and deploy leverage. clearly, the leverage we have in our relationship with the people's republic of china is that we are their largest market as far as i know in the world. there is a limit, obviously, to what china would do to try to damage that relationship. at the same time, the president-elect is signaling to our friends across the globe that this will be an administration that will respect those friendships and will not be hesitant to support our allies. i think it's a very wise move
and one that indicates it's completely in concert with his character, indicates he will be a strong and unequivocal leader. >> it's not isolated. a series of controversial calls or meetings with leaders of pakistan, philippines, president abe of japan upset about china and the meeting had with the president-elect. what we need to look at here, i bring up all these countries in the asia theater, some calling it a potential powder keg, the issue of an arms race, china already feared regionally as an economic imperialist, then you upset that juggernaut in asia. that is what's at risk and all the countries around it.
>> i think all the sensitivities, everything is under a microscope. if you look at japan or south korea, we have treaty obligations with these countries that go from administration to administration that underpin our relationship. philippines has been a wild card recently. i think by far the most critical issue the president-elect will face is what to do about north korea. i think all this sensitivity talk about these other issues is going to fade and we're going to have to think about what we collectively do, including with china to curb that regime there. >> this issue of what china means to the united states, it is our country's biggest lender. in fact the last administration, the first trip by the secretary of state was to china. that certainly in the background here. is there concern here we are upsetting the biggest lender to our country? >> there's mutuality here.
they cannot afford for the united states to be in a state of economic peril or collapse because then they'll lose their investment. i can't foresee that happening. i think there will continue to be a wary relationship on both sides. clearly two very potent forces opposing each other rather like two poles of magnets being juxtaposed. it's important to remember the new admistration has also pledged to pursue fiscal policies that are much likelier to put us in less jeopardy.
we should make ourselves progressively less vulnerable to china. >> one thing we all can agree on, there are a lot more twitter followers in china and taiwan based on where things are going right now. thank you so much. have a great day. much more on the deadly fire out of oakland which we are watching. nine people have died. dozens more feared dead. e between life and death. for partners in health, time is life. we have 18,000 people around the world. the microsoft cloud helps our entire staff stay connected and work together in real time to help those that need it. the ability to collaborate changes how we work. what we do together changes how we live. (i wanted him to eat healthy., so i feed jake purina cat chow naturals indoor,
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the fire breaking out last night during a party in this warehouse, as you look at these live pictures here. they are in west oakland close to san francisco. we expect potentially another briefing within the next hour or two. when that does happen, we'll monitor that for you here on msnbc. a tragedy in california we are watching. jury deliberations in the high profile murder trial former south carolina police officer michael slager. that will resume monday. the panel telling the judge it was hopelessly deadlocked. a single juror wrote a letter to the judge saying he could not convict the former north charleston police officer. despite the deadlock, the jurors told the court they want to keep deliberating. >> we kept hearing it's over, it's over. >> we'll just wait till monday. >> slager is charged in the death of walter scott who was shot in the back as he ran from a traffic stop last year.
we'll continue to follow that story. thousands of cubans are paying their final respects to fidel castro as his ashes make their way to a final resting place. we'll go live to cuba ahead of tonight's memorial service. the holidays should bring joy. so why are you still putting up with complicated cash back cards? some cards limit where you earn bonus cash back to places they choose... then they change those places every few months. quicksilver keeps it simple.
welcome back. preparations are under way in cuba for the memorial service for fidel castro. they will take place in santiago de cuba. his ashes passed through several cities in cuba. thousands lined the streets to pay their respects to the former leader. how are they talking about the future after the funeral is done and the days moving forward? >> that's a great question. i went to a young woman's house today. she is a millennial young
mother. she told me, i don't actually think things are really going to change because he was more of a political symbol. she doesn't think domestically nor in terms of foreign affairs specifically our relationship with the united states, she doesn't think things will significantly change because he had been out of power so long and because she said the people here are so loyal to his legacy, so loyal to his way of thinking, they will continue to govern their affairs according to that ideology. i want to show you what we are looking at now. this is the eastern part of the island where fidel castro was from. he grew up about an hour and a half away. people here are deeply affected. they feel that personal connection because of where he came from. this is where he gave his first speech when he came down after the revolution. these were the same people who
had seen him. >> today i am so sad because my president died. i feel in my heart fidel is a he live in the cuban people and cuban child and student like me. >> that was just a few moments ago. if you look behind me, this is the crowd that's come out. they are chanting things, "i am fidel," "the people are with you." some saying he's not even dead because his legacy remains with us. >> morgan, thank you for that. castro's death coming more than 10 years after he handed over control of cuba to his younger brother raul. the older castro now gone.
will raul change how his country deals with other countries including the u.s.? raul was seen as a reformer by son after he took power. with his brother gone, what about tomorrow after the funeral? will they see more reform? >> he implemented a series of reforms that allowed a few more economic freedoms in cuba. all in all, the system is the same as it was over the past 50 years. there is still tremendous oppression, no freedom of expression. it's not clear what is supposed to happen. he is supposed to give up power to miguel next year.
the question is voices of reformers will get louder. >> some of the ideas discussed in that thematic of reform was how do you bring in the two economies, u.s. and cuban economies for the everyday cuban so you cannot reverse the progress in front, for instance, buying u.s. goods online? are those the ways to make them, these two countries closer that would be irreversible given what might happen with a new president in the you'd? >> i don't think the cuban government will want to reverse them. i think they are getting a lot more money because of increased u.s. tourism and just the cubans there who have now had some freedom of enterprise are making more money. i soorsly doubt there will be much retrenchment on the
economic front. the question is whether there is much more openness if a president trump decides to say he wants to toughen the deals with the cubans and get more in return for the normalization of relations. >> you told us your father had gone to the same school as fidel castro. this is something you know well not only on your reporting but given your background. donald trump giving us a hint what might happen after castro's death saying if cuba is unwilling to make a better deal for the cuban people and the u.s. as a whole, i will terminate the deal, alluding to what president obama plans, has done with cuba. which is more important to u.s./cuba relations, donald trump's presidency or fidel castro passing away?
>> i can't predict how far donald trump will go. i suspect a little rhetoric is overblown and there won't be tremendous change from the u.s. front. i might be wrong. i think fidel castro's death is probably greater because it will encourage the voices of reformers and cuba. you've got to remember, barack obama announced the normalization of relations in december 2014. since then, there has been an increase in the amount of arrests of dissidents. there were reports in the "miami herald" how many people have been beaten up and arrested just in the days since castro's death in voicing their opposition and objections to the lionization of fidel castro. it's going to be a touchy time. >> very well said. appreciate you stopping by. the latest on that breaking news story out of oakland,
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we are following a breaking story. it's a deadly fire at a warehouse in oakland in california. just outside san francisco. killed at least nine people. authorities fearing here that death toll could reach as high as 406789 steve paterson has been following that for us. we expect a briefing potentially here in the next hour or two. what are they looking for in these coming hours that's so important? i know they are looking at hospitals and trying to find potential victims or survivors. >> right now it's important to say we are in a very sensitive phase in this. this is what we would probably consider the recovery phase. in other words, investigators are still waiting to go on scene
because fire crews are poking around in the ruins there looking for victims, looking for people who may still have been trapped in the structure. 50 to 100 people are at this party last night. 11:30 the fire breaks out. nine confirmed dead. many of those in the second floor of that structure when the roof caves in. 25 unaccounted for. that doesn't mean that's missing or that is the number of dead. that's just a number that is a list that was generated by investigators to try to match and find how many people are actually in that structure. nine dead, 25u7b accounted for, 50 to 100 people in that structure. the fear is that 40 number. 40 people that may be involved in a mass casualty event. that's the number that crews are preparing for at this point. again, we are still in this recovery phase digging through the refuge to find exactly how many people there were. the hope was that 25 number would include people at local
hospitals that may have self-transported, that may have been treated and released that maybe hadn't checked in with family yet. at the last press conference we heard a haunting quote, "you either made it out or you didn't make it out." that's the estimate from the sheriff's department who is looking into this as well. they are telling people not to call local hospitals because they have a good hold on either the numbers of people who are inside that warehouse or outside that warehouse. the work has to be investigators getting into the building to actually figure out how this started, where this started, but also figuring out how many people were actually trapped in a huge structure that went up overnight in a very fast moving fire. we are in a very sensitive phase of this investigation that will include a lot of grief, according to officials. >> thank you, steve. we are going to watch if that does happen, the briefing in the
next hour or two. our hearts are hopeful on the 25 unaccounted for in oakland, california. democrats are voicing at this moment disapproval of one of trump's cabinet picks. >> i was just so disappointed to see the president-elect nominate congressman price to serve as secretary of health and human services this morning. when it comes to issues like medicare, the affordable care act and planned parenthood, congressman price and the average american couldn't be further apart. >> georgia congressman tom price has not only been one of the most outspoken critics of obamacare but drafted a plan to replace it he calls the empower patients first act. for more on the future of obamacare, we are joined by raul luiz, former emergency room
doctor. congressman, can tom price do a good job? if you could vote for his confirmation, would you give him a thumbs up or down? >> i would gibb him a double thumbs down. because he is going to be the architect of donald trump's extreme agenda which we all know is going to harm the american people, our health and wellness. the plan to repeal the affordable care act comes with the plan to privatize medicare. with those two ideas, they are goin to harm 20 million or more americans, harm millions of seniors who rely on the medicare guarantee. that's unacceptable. all the expansion of medicaid we saw under the affordable care act are going to be denied. they are not offering new ideas. they want to go back to their old ideas that will allow insurance companies to discriminate against people who have diabetes, pulmonary
illnesses and when insurance companies would decide what they are going to pay for and have their interest in mind. >> the health care industry is the potentially number one largest industry in the company, some estimate to be $3 trillion. if you had tom price in front of you giving him the benefit of the doubt, what is the one question you would ask him to try to understand better how his plan might be more consistent with what you want? >> this is why it's so incomprehensible being a physician myself that another physician would want these policies because we took an oath to do no harm to our patients. so doctor to doctor, how can he justify privatizing medicare, putting the burden of health care costs on our seniors? how can he want to uninsure
millions of people who are relying on that? that is my question to tom price as a physician from another physician. >> other republicans, it is reported, are looking at potentially, relatively a more moderate approach than has been discussed by tom ice, what's been called a repeal and wait, wait two or three years before taking into effect, so it would give them time to edit or replace certain parts of it would. that help you feel more comfortable so legislatively saying it's repealed but slowly taking away the certain parts of what they don't like, not all potentially? >> it's like putting a leech on a patient and slowly allowing them to bleed to death. no. that doesn't make me more comfort al. what makes me comfortable we have a plan up front that's going to protect all those millions of people that now have health insurance for the first time. the younger individuals, protect their ability to be on their
parents' health care plan, women aren't discriminated against, make sure women have reproductive health care rights in our country. those are the things the american people care about. as a physician, i take care of patients on a daily basis. we talk about policy and talk about these political messaging points that republicans love to put out there, but what we fail to understand is these are real human beings. these are real people who are suffering because of these policies that bureaucrats are making and people like donald trump and tom price want to shove down our throats. this is not good medicine. this is poison for the american people. we need to be able to recognize it, call it for what it is and stand up and fight for our patients and the people we care about and make sure all ordinary americans, working class americans, whether you're in rural areas, middle america or the coastal area are going to be affected by these changes they plan to do. >> part of that prescription in
a new report shows only about a quarter of all americans want obamacare repealed completely that. 's part of the prescription as you move forward. dr. and representative raul luiz, thank you for stopping by. >> thank you. when we come back, live to north dakota, site of the protest over pipeline project. protesters vowing to stay beyond the government's monday deadline to leave.
still following the breaking story out of oakland, california. look at some of the pictures from a chopper cam there. what remains of a warehouse party destroyed by a fire. killing nine overnight. two dozen others are unaccounted for. we are watching that closely. the fire breaking out last night during a party where as many as 100 people were in attendance. moments ago, the oakland a's baseball organization releasing
a statement supporting the victims and their families, adding the a's will match donations to relief efforts up to $20,000. we'll continue to watch that. stay with us here on msnbc for that story. bitter cold and snow not stopping pipeline protesters from standing their ground. u.s. military veterans are joining them today as the monday deadline approaches. cal perry joins us. what is different today? yesterday was the veterans are coming, the veterans are coming. >> the veterans are here. 2,000 registered online on facebook. i think the numbers are probably going to be bigger than that. add to that the folks who have been here a long time. how long have you been here? >> i've been here since august living just outside standing rock reservation defending against the dakota access pipeline.
honor the earth is an indigenous led organization. >> they say it's a protest being orchestrated and led by extreme environmentalists who committed to the elimination of fossil fuels to the american economy and dishonors the tens of thousands of brave men and women who fought and died in furtherians of american energy security. what is your response? >> i want to know when it became extreme to care about clean drinking water and the survival of future generations. i am completely aware working with the various organizations i do, embridge has a renewables department. why don't we get them out there doing their job so we have a green economy moving forward? >> thank you for your time. i appreciate it. rifrpd, monday is shaping up to be a big day. that's the day where the federal government said they want everybody off this land. this camp has grown considerably. today by thousands.
that's going to play into what the authorities are able to do. they told us straight forward, they do not want a confrontation. they understand the optics of that are poor. we'll see if veterans change that. we'll have to find out sunday night. >> thank you for that reporting. cal perry in cannon ball, north dakota, following that large protest. now to howard dean. out of the race for dnc chair. we'll look at who the next head of the democratic party will likely be. the challenges they will face. on the other side of the break. at the supermarket buying cheese. scandal alert! flo likes dairy?! woman: busted! [ laughter ] right afterwards we caught her riding shotgun with a mystery man. oh, yeah! [ indistinct shouting ] is this your chauffeur? what?! no, i was just showing him how easy it is to save with snapshot from progressive. you just plug it in and it gives you a rate based on your driving. does she have insurance for being boring? [ light laughter ] laugh bigger. [ laughter ]
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we're all going to participate in leading the party. i think now's the time when everybody has to step up, again, part of why i wanted to do it and you see this crew here, a lot of young members stepped up, went public, which is unheard of in a political caucus like this for young people to stand up. >> representative tim ryan reiterating the need for new blood in the wake of stunning democratic losses in the election in 2016.
he challenged nancy pelosi for the democratic leadership. he lost. average age of house democratic leaders, by-b, by the way, 66 y old. squaring off friday, the party gets set to elect a new chairperson in february. it joining me, campaign director forecenter for american progress action fund, and michelle, look at leadership in the house right now. is it more important that you look at geography or values? >> great question. i would say maybe more important to look at message. we're in a season of creative destruction in the democratic party now. an organization hit by a huge epic loss and the stunning breach of their e-mail system. to me, this three-month period we'll be sorting out a leader of the dnc, creative destruction. can they find a way to fuse a
new message that deals with inequal they will resonate across every geography and across every demographic group? >> part of that createic destruction, when you look tat here, emily, who's dominating leadership in the house now. we're seeing at least recently many from california. nancy pelosi, an obvious name there, and ryan, making the point that the leadership has been too west and east, and you need to fill it in with the middle and the south. your thoughts? >> i can see why there is frustration from achlt the members from the middle and south of the country, because democrats actually did have the lutis and did have the message that would have helped people in their states and their districts. it just didn't resonate across the board for the most part. and california, i think, in particular, just a lot of members which is also why you're going to have a lot of members from california doing anything. something that did make me a little nervous coming after the election, democrats are feeling like, losses here, big losses.
need new leadership and the people that came forward right away primarily white men. >> who do you like? >> look, i do think nancy pelosi has been a strong leader for the party. the dnc, someone there full-time whoever that is. there are strong candidates in that race as well. i don't think we can say because we disheartened, losses in one election, the answer is to go back to only being led by white men. i don't think that's the answer. that's not the future of the party or of the country. we need to be actually reflecting that in our leadership as well. >> michelle, not only white men. not only 66 years old. right? not only from the two coasts. might those spaces be in these vice positions nancy pelosi agreed to? >> you know, that's totally possible. what's interesting is we've got three moss for this dnc election and they have to figure this out. 2018 is around the corner. so it's going to be a matter of them figuring this ow to counter
the machine that the trump administration is going to put forward. >> an opportunity here. i want to move over to the head of the dnc. >> yes. >> the headline coming out -- excuse me -- howard dean saying i'm stepping aside. that will have to happen sometime in terms of their termination by february. how do you see this falling out in terms of who will lead the dnc and who would be good? the same questions exist here. geography, values and megs? >> one leader or maybe back to a bill clinton model, more than one leader of the dnc. something i'm keeping my eye on. i don't think that the's recent controversy about keith ellison will snuff out his candidacy at all. the controversial statements that came out about him as well. >> quickly, who do you like? >> who do i like? if i had to pick today, keith ellison, like all journalists, the business forever of --
>> okay. where you're watching. then to you here, emily. one of the things i'm watching during the last administration is, all of the energy that's been coming out of hawaii. not only the president clearly but when we look at mazy has rono, and tulsi gabbard and others up and comers in the democratic party, and the staffers on the hill. hawaii as well. are we going to see potentially here the place that we don't think that might take up a leadership position in the dnc? >> who doesn't want to be visiting hawaii? i can certainly say there's a deal there. >> yeah. >> whoever is going to end up leading the dnc, and who should be leading the dnc, is who has their ear to the ground. the energy now is not in washington. the energy is in the states. the energy is with the real voters nap is who was energized. i'd say the organizations working throughout are medium energized. on that spectrum, elected people currently elected in washington are the least energized on that spectrum. >> uh-huh. >> and all coming from the
people. the people know what they want and they need to see leadership that reflects that, absolutely. >> maybe there will be a michelle a emily brought up in the process? who knows. thank you both. correspondent for reuters and emily, campaign for the center for american progress. thank you both. have a very good saturday. when we come back, the late effort on the fire in oakland, keep an kweye on that, where ni people died. the dr. scholl's kiosk maps your feet and recommends our custom fit orthotic to stabilize your foundation and relieve lower-back, knee or foot pain from being on your feet. find your nearest kiosk at drscholls.com. also available from dr. scholl's: heavy duty support for lower back pain, lightens the impact of every step.
welcome back to msnbc. i'm richard lui in new york city at our world headquarters. we begin the hour following the breaking story this afternoon out of california. a fire breaking out at a two-story warehouse party. nine people dead. officials fear the number could climb to 40 potentially. >> there is no reason yet to suspect arson, however, you have to work these investigations at the worst-case scenario and then