tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC December 13, 2016 12:00am-1:01am PST
when it was all said and done -- >> we have seen a brand-new way of looking at and thinking about this electoral map. >> this is a white working class -- >> turned red overnight. >> we won michigan, pennsylvania and we won wisconsin. >> and though hillary clinton won the national popular vote by more than 2.5 million people, in the end, just 80,000 votes across three states was enough for trump. tonight, we return to the state that put the republican over the top with the setting, who won wisconsin in the primary? looking for answers. >> there are a lot of people hurting, i'm in pain, i'm worried about my kids. this guy said he's going to do something for me. i'm going to give him a shot.
>> this is "all in america," bernie sanders in trump country. >> good evening from kenosha, wisconsin, i'm chris hayes. we're calling it trump country. do you folks think this is trump country? >> no! >> that may be true in this crowd but for the first time since 1984, wisconsin voted for a republican for president and in many ways the story of wisconsin is a story of 2016, the state flipping to trump after voting for president obama twice. trump's margins instead of 22,617 votes. we're here in kenosha county, where in many ways is the story of wisconsin. this county hasn't voted for a republican for president since 1972. but according to the statewide recount initiated by green party candidate jill stein in kenosha, donald trump beat hillary clinton by just 237 votes. there are more people than that right here in this room.
we have trump voters in the room tonight, we have clinton voters, we have people who didn't even vote. and we're here to have a frank and open conversation about what happened in this election, where we are as a country and where we go from here. donald trump is not the only candidate who beat hillary clinton in wisconsin. we also have with us vermont senator bernie sanders who says we can all stand to do more listening in communities like this. please join me in welcoming senator sanders. [cheers and applause ] >> good to see you. have a seat. [ applause ] >> thank you. this is awful intimate here. >> yes, it's very close. very close. so, look, one of the things that i think has been interesting after the election, this thing was so close. we're talking 80,000 votes across three states, that everybody plausibly has an argument for what's definitive, right? because it was so close. i want to hear your theory of
the case when you say if you have to give someone the bernie sanders theory of the case of why this election turned out the way it did, what's your theory of the case? >> well, my theory of the case is there's a lot of pain in this country, a lot of pain in wisconsin. for the last 40 years, the middle class in this country has been disappearing. we have massive levels of income and wealth inequality. companies shut down, moved to china, move to mexico, paying people a fraction of the wage they pay in this country. there are enormous economic problems facing the middle class in this country and the media doesn't talk about them, most politicians don't talk about them and that's why we are here, to have a frank discussion, a, of where we are, how we got here and where we're going to go in the future. >> so here's my question. when we talk about this, which is a good time frame, you start to look at what happens right around the 1970s, a real shift
in the economy, away from the middle class towards the 1%. if that's the case, that's been going on for years. barack obama won kenosha twice. you have bill clinton a real proponent of free trade winning two elections in a row. if those are the trends that drove this outcome, why did it all erupt this year? >> well, you're going to hear from people better than i know, the people of kenosha. ultimately, many people are saying enough is enough. they are wondering why in the richest country in the history of the world, so many people are struggling economically, why people can't afford health care or child care. and by the way, why we have so much income and wealth inequality. nobody here, i suspect, thinks it is appropriate that the top one-tenth of 1% now owns almost
as much wealth as the bottom 90%. anybody think that makes much sense? >> no. >> anybody think that it makes sense that 52% of all new income is going to the top 1%? >> no. >> i don't think people do. and they are sitting there and they are saying we don't want more of the same ole same ole. trump comes along and says i'm a multibillionaire, i don't pay any taxes, i have companies in turkey and china and mexico but i'm going to stand up to the economic establishment, the political establishment, i'm going to take them on all and a lot of people responded, okay, we're going to give this guy a shot. >> there's folks we're going to bring out in a little bit, folks who voted for donald trump. one thing they talked about is how much they liked the way he communicated. obviously he said things that created tremendous controversy, in some cases, real genuine pain for some folks. muslim-americans in particular. there's a sense he was violating
some set of manners that shouldn't exist. what do you make of that? >> i think that's true. i think he said he will not be politically correct. i think he said some outrageous and painful things but i think people are tired of the same old, same old political rhetoric and they believe that he was speaking from his heart and willing to take on everybody. >> what do you think about political correctness? what does that mean to you? >> what it means is you have a set of talking points which have been poll tested and focus group tested and that's what you say rather than what's really going on and often what you are not allowed to say are things which offend very, very powerful people. for years and years, we have been told by republicans and many democrats that our trade policy was a great idea, that it was working for america. well, you know what, the
american people don't believe it. they think there's something wrong just with permanent normal trade relations with china and the mexican free trade agreement, we've lost some 4 million decent jobs. the american people want candidates and politicians to have the guts to stand up to the billionaire class and start representing the middle class and working class families of this country. >> let me ask the audience for a second, when you hear political correctness, do you think about trade policies? raise your hand if that's what you're thinking about. when you're thinking about political correctness, are you thinking about the way you are or are not allowed to talk about a certain group of americans. it seems to you, that was part of it, too. he was going after these consensus things but he was also saying things, frankly, when we talk about political correctness, rules about not being a jerk. >> who else is doing it, he was talking about the media.
do people here think that the media reflects american society? >> no. >> see, it's one on you, chris. >> i'm not trying to score points. my point is these things are intertwined. he was violating taboos that a lot of folks, i'll put myself in them, we should keep, like the taboos about how you talk about women or people of color or different religions. >> that's true. i think some of that is unfortunate because i happen to believe one of the arguments as to why trump won is to believe that most of -- or many of his supporters are sexist or racists or homophobes. i happen to think that's not the case. there is a lot of pain in this country. people are scared. people are worried.
for example, 50% of older workers 55 to 64, do you know how much money they have in the bank as they enter retirement? zero. what do you think? people are scared to death of retirement. so i think the answer is he said -- and i think his main success story is what i will stand up to the establishment, whether it's the political establishment, media establishment, the economic establishment. now, i happen to think he won't do that. but be that as it may, we'll discuss that tonight. i think that was his major argument. people are tired of status quo politics. he broke through that. >> how do you square that with the way you think about and the way the voters think about barack obama's presidency. he's got a 50% approval rating right now. you said, look, there are a lot of things he didn't do sufficiently but i think he's a great president. how many people in this room feel good about barack obama,
think he's a good president? i know this is not a scientific cross sample of the voters of kenosha, and thank you for coming, but there's a real distance between that 59% approval rating and what happened in this election. >> i think you've got two things. question, again, unscientifically, are we better off economically today than we were when obama first came in? >> yes. >> okay. that is -- okay. most people think yes the main evidence is that we are. we're better off, i think. most people would agree. but on the other hand, despite, that the middle class continues to decline. so you thought, yeah, we're better off than we were eight years ago but millions of people are hurting and they are scared to death that their kids will have a lower standard of living than they do and that brings off a whole lot of anxiety.
>> we are here at a local 72 of the uaw. an amazing facility built in the 1960s. in some ways, a testament to what kenosha was in the sort of heyday of auto manufacturing. up next, a panel of trump supporters to talk with the senator. don't go anywhere. [ applause ] >> what do you think of the idea of free college tuition? >> that's the moment i stopped listening to anything coming out of your mouth, when you said that, because it is so absurd.
kenosha made things. that's the legacy of my generation and the generations prior to mine. we made things. we made cars. we made mattresses here. we made men's clothing here. we made fire engines here. it was the identity of our community. we made stuff and we were darn proud of it. >> on the shores of lake
michigan, between chicago and milwaukee, kentucky, wisconsin, a city and a region that flourished. >> this was a manufacturing community. we make things. this community was built on the hands and backs of working people who came to work in those factories. >> back in 1902, kenosha started making cars. by the 1920s, it was the biggest employer in kenosha and the jobs just kept getting better. >> largely due to the efforts of organized lane borrow in the community, jobs that were low-paying factory jobs became good-paying factory jobs. factory workers suddenly in the 1950s got to a position where they could make a good living, enter the middle class. >> in the 1950s, the company was called american motors. workers were making good money and iconic american cars.
>> ram bler is your kind of car. >> by 1960, american motors employed 14,000 workers. in the 1970s, the company started to have problems. >> the company plans to lay off 1,000 employees for one week and will shut down all operations for three more weeks. >> in 1987, chrysler bought american motors and the very next year they stopped making cars in kenosha. >> chrysler is leaving town. so are 5500 jobs. >> it's going to hurt everybody. drive a lot of people out of business, a lot of people just bought new chrysler cars and new houses thinking they had jobs for three to five years. >> the loss of 5500 jobs to a city the size of kenosha is equivalent to losing 500,000 jobs in new york city. >> chrysler did keep making car engines in kenosha but closed
that plant in 2010. it was torn down in 2013. >> the plant's all gone. it's a big empty lot. you look at that big empty lot and say there's a challenge there. >> there are still jobs in kenosha. in fact, the unemployment rate is below the national average. but the jobs today are very different. >> most of the employees in the manufacturing sector were unionized and had good benefits and solid salaries. what has happened after this transition, the newer jobs, which they are very grateful for, aren't paying as well as the manufacturing jobs were and there's a real political consequence. if somebody wants to know what happened in the election a month ago, they need only drive down 52nd street in kenosha and look at those 100-plus acres of empty space that represent both what
was in kenosha and the hopes and dreams and future of kenosha as it rebuilds. >> already. we are back here in kenosha. as i said before, kenosha county went for donald trump by 237 votes, less than the amount of people in this room. we're going to introduce you to some folks who voted forever trump. richard backed barack obama in '08. jamie, a divorced mom of two, she's holding down multiple jobs. she believes trump will bring back jobs. we have with us gail sparks who is an electronic commission. didn't vote in 2012 and voted for donald trump in this election and a long-time republican who voted for donald trump. matt, let me start with you. you are nodding your head. you're a long-time union guy and a long-time republican which is not always something that goes together.
how important do you think organized labor is to a strong middle class? >> the grassroots is important. the leadership in the unions has been lacking and grassroots guy -- unions are important up to a point and i think the unions have lost their way over the last 20 years. they don't represent the people like they used to and that's what has changed but the people are still important. >> what does it mean to you when you think about the decline -- i look at this place and i think between the outsourcing that's happened, the jobs that have left, the decline of unions, it's hard to imagine being able to build a place like this today. >> it was sad to see the union -- i worked for samtron and they closed the plant and 30 years was enough. it was sad to see the jobs go. i lived in kenosha my whole life. >> richard, you voted for bernie sanders in the primary here in wisconsin.
you voted for -- you voted for donald trump in the primary but voted down-ticket for democrats on election day. >> yes. >> generally you're a democratic voter but this time you voted for donald trump. why? >> basically, because he wasn't hillary. >> have people heard that a lot? >> yes. >> would you have supported senator sanders if he was the nominee? >> yes, i would have. >> what do you think of that, senator sanders? >> well, i appreciate it. [ applause ] but, you know, we won kenosha pretty handily and wisconsin in the primary and i think the message that we brought forth is that it is time to create an economy that works for all of us and not just the 1%. it's time to support organized labor and make it easier for workers to get into unions.
it is time -- and i'd like to raise this issue, maybe if we can get into it in a moment, we are the only major country on earth that doesn't guarantee health care to all people as a right. how many people think we should have that? [ applause ] >> let me ask you folks up there, jamie, when you think about your voting, senator sanders talking about guaranteeing health care as a right, is that the sort of thing you're interested in? >> okay, that's great but how are we going to pay for that and how is it -- right now if you try to go online and look for insurance, it is a massive disaster. you could spend two hours on there and you have no idea what to look for. >> right. >> also, for me, being as what i do for a living, i'm lucky, i'm quite healthy, i'm looking at insurance premiums that were 300, $400 a month and a $10,000 deductible. that's ridiculous.
you know, how can someone afford that? >> gail, you express frustration with the way things are going and you're someone who didn't -- who wasn't psyched about either candidate in 2012 but felt strongly about coming out this time around. what changed? >> it was the fact that, number one, i think the country needs a bit of a change. they have put a lot of republics, democrats, professional politicians in that office. trump seemed more of him being a businessman, what's this country for? business or talk? >> what do you think about that, senator? you've devoted your life to public service. >> well, i think you make a good point. i think what you're really saying is people are sick and tired of establishment politics, right, and get somebody who cuts through the crap. >> exactly. >> i understand that. >> all right.
mack, did you want to jump in? >> yeah, i agree. i liked trump from the beginning because he was open and upfront with everybody and he talked to the people, pretty much like you did, too. and the people i know, it's either -- it was either donald trump or you on the other end. nothing in between. they didn't like any other candidates and that's from a grassroots point of view. >> you're talking about your union? >> well, just everybody, no matter who you talked to. they liked donald trump and they liked bernie because they tyked to the people. and we thought everybody else was just giving us a bunch of hogwash. they were just talking over us. >> richard, do you have -- do you think that when we talk about the kinds of jobs that were in kenosha, do you see a future in which those come back? >> no. no. it's -- the industry in kenosha is so diversified now whereas before when it was just
chrysler, it was a one-trick pony, you know. >> do you feel like things are going to get better in kenosha? >> i'm optimistic to think that they are. i hope that they are. i'm pretty sure that they are. >> let me jump in. >> sure. >> let me ask you guys a question and all of you who voted for trump. question, why has the middle class been in a decline for the last 40 years? what do you think? does that have something to do with corporate greed? >> i think it has to -- [ applause ] i think it has to do with what kind of ceos are graduating from college. we had plant managers at snap on tools that are ceos that actually carried about people. howard brown of kenosha news cared about the people. it's corporate greedy individuals in the wrong positions.
>> you think the culture has changed? >> the culture's changed a lot. >> that's a good point. other reasons? why is the middle class been declining? why do we have so much income inequality? >> because so many jobs are going overseas. >> do all of you believe that our current trade policies, nafta, have been a disaster? >> they are terrible. >> okay. >> i thought that from the beginning. it all started with gat should never have been negotiated. it took 30 years to negotiate that behind closed doors. nobody had a voice in it. >> is there a general consensus here that our american trade policies have failed the american worker? [ applause ] >> well, i just want everybody to know, you are looking at a guy who voted against every one of these trade agreements. [ applause ] what was also clear to me is
that the guys who wrote these trade agreements wanted very much to have the opportunity to shut down in kenosha or in vermont and move to mexico and move to china where they could pay people very low wages. you didn't need a ph.d. in economics to figure that one out. so i gather that all of you would be sympathetic to a major rewrite of our trade policies, that corporate america starts investing in this country and not the low-wage countries in the world. >> definitely. >> good. good. second question. you got a lot of people uninsured in kenosha. i know a lot of people in verm month cannot get by on the 10, $11 an hour that they are making. should we raise the minimum wage to a living wage? >> no. >> let's hear it. let's go -- >> i want to hear -- if there's descent, i want to hear it. >> i don't know how you can take
someone working at mcdonald's and pay them $15 an hour and not expect everything to go up around. obviously, food is going to have to go up. if you want to pay workers for bagging groceries up to 12, okay, your groceries are going to have to go. everything is going to have to go up. >> i want you to hold that thought. there is dissent. i want to bring in more voters. i'll bring in another panel. don't go anywhere. >> trump posed a real threat to our existence in this country and i was born and raised in milwaukee, wisconsin. >> i would never want to see anybody thrown out just because of their beliefs or their -- i mean, that's awful. no.
all right. we're here back in kenosha. and you know, jamie just made a point about the minimum wage which you hear a lot from voters, from folks at think tanks about if you raise the minimum wage to, say, $15 an hour, you're just going to increase costs, right, and somebody is going to be paying for that. i'm curious if any of you folks -- you guys are all democrats. john, you're a former union president. does that argument stand to you? >> well, first of all, one of the things that i think people miss about raising minimum wage, if minimum wage goes up,
everybody's wage goes up. the floor is raised. people say why should people at mcdonald's -- it's not just about people that work at mcdonald's and people making the minimum wage, by and large, those are not just young people. those are people who are raising a family and need -- >> but doesn't that make her argument more solid. won't costs explode? >> no. i think it goes back to senator sanders' argument that incomes have shifted this this country to the top 1%, away from the people in this country. if you raise the minimum wage, it brings the income back to the people, takes it away from the 1% and gives people purchasing power now that they don't have. and it will help the economy. [ applause ] >> you're shaking your head. you don't like this minimum wage argument. stand up. stand up. what's your name, sir? >> gabe.
well, the minimum wage, yes, it is good. but the minimum wage, i believe, was meant to be for people with part-time jobs or going to school, trying to -- when you increase everything just like now with the insurance, in the last couple of years with the obamacare, well, i'm paying right now, me and my wife pay 40% of our income goes to insurance. that's what's bad. you increase the minimum wage, everybody else is going to have to make more money. i'm retired. my wife is what i call semiretired. she gets social security but she also has to work just to pay for the insurance. in raising the minimum wage, what's that going to do to me? >> another thing -- >> maybe that's going back on something else now but immigration, they were talking about immigration, illegal immigration. i'm an immigrant myself. so -- but i came in legally. i had to wait ten years in line for me to come in. >> let me get back to this minimum wage, senator.
we have states that have done this. we're going to see how important you think it is, the results of a state like california, that has actually raised the minimum wage considerably? >> and vermont has raised the minimum wage and a number of states have. picking up on john's point, there has been, over the last number of decades, a massive shift of income and wealth to the top 1% and if this country is going to survive economically, we're going to shift it back to the working class. if you make $7.25, 8 bucks an hour, you're not going to buy anything. you're not going to buy furniture, you're not going to take your family out to eat. when you don't have that disposable income, you're not helping to create other people's jobs. and the third point that i make, i very often hear that argument about the possibility of prices going up but i don't hear that when you have ceos making 300
times salary of what their workers are making. we're going to take a quick break and be back with much more from kenosha right after this. >> i find it interesting, what three out of four of you are saying is, yeah, he talked about that stuff but we don't believe it will ever happen. why do you vote for somebody who in a sense is lying? [ applause ]
all right. we're back here in kenosha. senator sanders is talking about free college education. here, stand up for a second. >> mary mosier. >> i saw you shaking your heads about raising minimum wage and free college tuition. what do you think of free college tuition. >> that's the moment i stop listening to anything that you said coming out of your mouth because it is so absurd. who is going to pay for it?
why don't you address how college tuition has skyrocketed 6,000 percent since the 1980s. you can't have an industry where once you pass a seniority level it is impossible to fire you. that's ridiculous. no other industry has that type of protection. that needs to go. tenure needs to go. >> no, i don't think tenure needs to go and i don't think -- so here is the point and it hasn't gone up 6,000 percent. it's gone up a lot. not 6,000 percent. let's stick to the facts. but here is the issue. very simple issue. in the united states of america, mary, do you think all people, regardless of their income, all young people, should have an equal right to get a college education or should that only benefit the wealthy or upper middle class? >> i believe the united states
works as it is today, where every single human being in the united states has the opportunity to go to college. i do not believe it is a right and i do not believe that i should be expected to pay for not only my education and my children's but somebody else's as well. >> but mary, when we are losing at least $100 billion every single year because large multinational corporations stash their money in the cayman islands and other tax havens. that's not you who is going to be asked for more taxes. we have massive income inequality. donald trump, a multibillionaire, proudly told us he doesn't pay a nickel in federal taxes. >> then why was barack obama -- [cheers and applause ] >> then why was geoffrey i am mault, ceo of ge, who proudly declared he paid zero percent incorporate taxes, why did barack obama name him as chief --
>> you are damn right. that that was a stupid thing to do. and by the way, geoffrey immelt many years ago said -- and i quote you -- when i look at the future of general electric, one of the largest corporations in america, i see china, china, china and china. all right? that was geoffrey immelt and you were quite right. ge in a given year paid zero in federal income taxes. in the history of the world, it is wrong to say that -- we are the wealthiest. in terms of total wealth we are. but the point is, in this country, with our wealth, i think it is a grossly unfair that working class kids simply do not have the necessary income to get a college education. and i think we should do what germany does and many other countries and say that when we
talk about public education, we're not just talking about first grade through 12th grade. we're talking about college as well. >> i want to ask -- talk to you for a second. my producer talked to you. stand up. your name is rema, right? >> yes. >> tell me your full name. >> rema akmed. >> we talk about manufacturing, the middle class, people who feel that really the driving force of donald trump was bigotry or was all kinds of sort of ways that he was able to scapegoat folks. tell me what you think about this analysis. >> yeah, i think that trump's campaign was a campaign of hate. i'm a community organizer and i was running a campaign down in illinois. i was a bernie supporter, did switch over to hillary in the
general election and it's because for me, for the communities that i'm a part of, the community that i want to be a part of, trump posed a real threat to our existence in this country and i say this as someone born and raised in milwaukee, wisconsin, i'm a midwesterner, i'm an american. so, yeah. >> when you say posed a real threat to the existence to the community you're a part of, what do you mean? >> community of color, community of immigrants. trump has talked about putting folks who look like me on a national registry. and i'm also talking about other immigrant communities, communities who have benefited from daka. what are those communities going to do? are my friends and family members going to be deported now, people who call this country home? is this what is going to happen? this is terrifying and i say this as somebody also who has family members who voted from trump. i come from a multiethnic and religious family and this is something we tried not to talk
about on thanksgiving but it's scary to see that neighbors, family members may look past the threat that trump poses to our very livelihood just because they wanted something different. [ applause ] >> you're shaking your head. what do you make of that? >> let's get everybody up here. what rema was saying, she is saying that trump won a whole lot of votes based on bigotry. >> no. he started a dialogue. there's not one person in this room, democrat or republican that would allow anything to happen like that, even on congress, that would not be acceptable to anybody. and he just started a dialogue and the dialogue has changed and it's gotten better. none of that is ever going to happen. >> but he's proposing legislation, though. >> he's proposing --
>> he's proposing removing daca. >> in the first place, you can't promote that -- that's anti-religion and against our constitution. >> i agree. >> that's never going to pass and even if it went to the supreme court, it would be thrown out. it's got to go through our congress first. that's another buffer zone we have. >> this is something that i encounter a lot of trump voters, who would say very similar things, they would say the things that he says that are the worst things, like the muslim ban, for instance, that is just him talking smack, basically. and it's not going to happen. does that -- i'm curious what you three think of that. is that how you thought of it or do you think i hope he does that or -- >> i hope he does not do that, no. i would never want to see anybody thrown out just because of their beliefs or their -- i mean, that's awful. no. >> gail? >> you know, to some extent, i'm hoping it is, being one that works in a fact industry and i
have tried to finish my college degree to be in this factory to do the job i'm doing but because there's so many illegals in there, i can't get the pay i should get. >> so you think illegal -- undocumented immigrants are threatening your pay and you hope he does get -- deport a lot of them? >> well, not including the fact, it's even been said on radio, that a lot of them that get stopped don't pay their tickets. they go to mexico and hide. they get away with it. they don't pay their taxes. they go to mexico and hide and then come back. i've seen this. it's upsetting. >> senator, do you want to -- >> richard, did you -- >> i think that a lot of what he says is uni am and never be approved. >> well, as somebody in the
congress, let me not -- i'm not quite so sure that you're right. but i think that there's no question, to my mind -- and i find it interesting that three out of four of you are saying, yeah, he talked about that stuff but it will never happen, we don't believe that it will never happen. why do you vote for somebody who, in a sense, then, is lying? [ applause ] >> he's starting a dialogue with the american people and used the media to get his point across and he wasn't lying. he started a dialogue. he voiced his opinion and he got feedback and he addressed it as he went along. he knows as well as anybody in this room, you can't go after a group of people because of their religious beliefs. it's never -- and i knew that
right off the bat but he was still up front and he talked to the public. >> well, it's an interesting point. i mean, what you're saying is that you think, and i think, that what he was talking about was unconstitutional. you've got a candidate for president of the united states talking about grocery unconstitutional things. >> well, look at what our congress does. they've passed unconstitutional laws every day. >> can i ask you something? >> yeah, please. >> i might make it through. i'm sitting here and i'm listening to all of this and, you know, as she says, who's paying for this? who's paying for the medicaid? who's paying for the social security? who's paying for the medicare? who? thank you. we are. now, have any of you seen down on streets that it seems as though we have become the silent minority and not the majority? >> what do you mean by that? >> how much we've been listened
to, really? >> who is the "we" when you say this? >> us people. >> who people? >> the people who need the medicare, the people who need the social security, who need the help with the education. >> okay. but -- good point. let's see if we can go forward on this. i am assuming that you believe, correct me if i'm wrong, that we should not cut social security or medicare or medicaid. is that correct or not? >> yeah. i believe it shouldn't be cut. >> do you know who is now working very hard to try to do that? republicans in congress have a plan under the guise of saving medicare and saving social security, making devastating cuts. that's what the republicans are now trying to do. the other point that you made, which is -- i think you made it. both of you have made it, actually, who is going to pay for this stuff? and that is a very fair point. what all of us should know is that over the last 25 years,
there has been a massive transfer of wealth in this country from you to the top one-tenth of 1%. in other words, the middle class has shrunk and trillionle dollars have gone to the top one-tenth of 1%. do you think it's appropriate to start asking those people to pay their fair share of taxes so we can make public colleges and universities tuition-free. is that an unfair thing to ask? >> i don't think it's an unfair thing to ask. they got rich off us. >> that's right. >> so it's time they put back. >> okay. >> that's all i'm saying. we're going to take a quick break. much more from the crowd. don't go anywhere. there is some rhetoric coming from mr. trump which, needless to say, disturbs me very, very much.
effort across the country. >> folks talk about immigration in this country and obviously it was a friend of my issue, gail talked about it a moment ago. there are lots of places people really feel like what's happening in the economy is that they are having a harder time and folks are coming in and not having as hard of a time or able to get jobs or those jobs are undercutting their wages. you know, that was something very near the surface of this election. how determative was that? >> i think there was a lot of embellishment and confusion over what the facts really are here. you talked about the undocumented here. truth be told, only a third of the -- i'm sorry. 3% of the u.s. population is undocumented and over half of those came here and overstayed their visas and then a percentage of those are hispanics. so i think there's always been a lot of fingerpointing at who is to blame and the facts haven't been shared the way they should
be. >> do you think it's scapegoating? >> yes, i do. >> how important was immigration for you guys up there? >> i think legal immigration is not a problem. it's the illegal immigration that we have a problem with. they have to get it back to the rule of law in this country. >> let me ask a broader question because i think this gets to how people may be feeling here in kenosha. i'm curious, on a really broad level, how many are optimistic about this country. raise your hand. [ applause ] how many people are pessimistic about this country right now? [ applause ] how do you folks up there feel about the first month of this new administration, how donald trump has been in this transition? do you feel like it's giving you more or less hope? >> i think he's shaking things
up a little bit and i kind of like it. things need to be shook autopsy little bit. both parties need to be shook up a little bit. >> you're agreeing, richard? >> i'm optimistic. >> you're optimistic? >> and i'm usually not optimistic but this time i am. >> what do you mean you're usually not optimistic? >> well, look at the past. look at the last few presidencies. it's just a lot of bogus rhetoric. >> did you feel that way about george w. bush? >> yes. >> you didn't like him? >> no. >> and you voted for barack obama and you feel disappointed? >> yes. >> and now you're hopeful about the future? >> yes. >> senator sanders, are you hopeful or pessimistic about the fup of this country? >> well, i'll tell you something, on a personal note, running around the country as a candidate for president, i became extremely optimistic because all over this country we had these very giant rallies and met with large groups and we met with small groups, people like
people who are here today. and the decency of the american people and the love of country of the american people and the desire to make this country a better place in which to live and raise families really blew me away. it really did. so in that sense, especially among the younger people, i am extremely optimistic about the future of this country. on the other hand, there is some rhetoric coming from mr. trump which, needless to say, disturbs me very, very much. his campaign, which was based on bigotry, bothers me. this cabinet he's appointing, it seems the major qualification is you have to be a billionaire. and i don't know that that is -- you know, when you talk about taking on the establishment, you're not really talking about bringing goldman sachs into your administration. you're not talking about bringing the head of exxonmobil into your administration. [ applause ]
you know, you're not talking about, you know, a guy named chuck jones who was a head of the local steel workers in indianapolis. that's not taking on the establishment. that's bringing the establishment right into your administration. so in that sense, i worry very much. >> i think he's talking about the do nothing congress and the bureaucrats we had in washington, d.c., to keep ignoring everybody, not that kind of establishment. those guys know how to get things done and we've got to give them a chance. put somebody else in there in four years because we're all still going to be here. we're not going anywhere. >> this is an interesting point. ultimately, right, what i find most interesting about how his next four years developed, which is that. the proof is in the pudding. life is better for folks in kenosha and wisconsin and across the greater industrial midwest and u.s., is that going to be the test, ultimately, of the political success of this person that we've just elected president of the united states? i want to thank our audience,
our panel, our participants and, of course, thank you to senator bernie sanders. that does it for us here in kenosha, wisconsin. the rachel maddow show starts next. happy monday night. thank you for joining us this hour. very happy to have you here. we've got a big show tonight. we've got a bunch of exclusive stuff. first of all, tonight in just a couple of minutes, we're going to have the first interview since the election with jen palmieri. she was a senior player, key player in that campaign, very close to the candidate herself. i should tell you that jen palmieri worked herself so hard during the campaign, she ended up in the hospital with exhaustion. it