tv Andrea Mitchell Reports MSNBC December 14, 2016 9:00am-10:01am PST
appreciation for paul ryan -- sort of. >> honestly, he's like a fine wine. every day goes by i get to appreciate his genius more and more. now if he ever goes against me i'm not going to stay with that, okay? >> trapped in aleppo, thousands trying to flee as the city falls around them. the u.s. ambassador to the united nations says no one can escape the blame. >> when there is a full accounting of the horrors committed in this assault of aleppo and that day will come sooner or later, you will not be able to say you didn't know what was happening. you will not be able say you were not involved. we all know what was happening and we all know you were involved. good day, everyone. i'm andrea mitchell in washington. the global business background
that made secretary of state nominee rex tillerson so appealing to president-elect trump is under scrutiny. learning more each day about the oil magnate's business dealings often at odds with the state department he plans to lead. his special relationship with vladimir putin. nbc national correspondent peter alexander is outside trump tower. let's drill down on this "new york times" reporting a lot of details about exxon mobil, their dealings with the kurds, side stepping what washington wanted in iraq. also dealings with repressive governments in africa and going to moscow for an economic meeting last june when the other oil companies were boycotting it being criticized for the state department for that. >> reporter: the bottom line is you have a man who for most of his adult life, almost all of it, was focused on profiting on behalf of his own company. now the challenge is whether he can translate the deal-making
experience to reliance building overseas. it poses concerns as you are indicating now directly dealing with the kurdish government back to try to prevent iraq from splintering by the iraqi government itself. in effect going after his own interests and not the state department's interest. that was his goal as a private business person. it also poses real challenges. now, donald trump has suggested the relationships with leaders from venezuela to nigeria. others in africa make him uniquely positioned to be effective in the role. it raises red flags for a lot of individuals. we have heard from republicans so far specifically about the relationship with vladimir putin who john mccain among others described as a butcher and said those are questions they want to drill down on when hearings begin in the senate foreign relations committee next year. >> former secretary of state james baker also a texan, knows him well, was on cbs this
morning defending him. baker said he doesn't have any financial dealings that his firm may have but he personally has not done work for rex tillerson. this was his defense today. let's watch. >> in getting close to vladimir putin he was doing what he should have done for the shareholders of exxon mobil. that is make good deals, good agreements with foreign powers whether they were awe authoritarian or not. we had a saying in washington when i was up there that where you stand is a function of where you sit. he was sitting in the ceo's chair of exxon mobil. now he'll be sitting in the secretary of state chair on the 7th floor of the state department. i guarantee you he's going to have a different outlook. >> so, peter, there's been a lot of confusion they tried to clarify today in the briefing. sean spicer and others on how often donald trump is briefed.
yesterday they said he gets his intelligence briefing from michael flynn and he said to chris wallace last weekend he doesn't need the presidential daily brief on a daily basis. that he's smart and doesn't need to be told the same thing every day. today they say he's getting it three times a week. that's new information. >> reporter: there is a little bit of confusion exactly how long this is going on. in the conversation we had with top transition officials a short time ago they indicated donald trump is right now getting the presidential daily briefing three times a week. but he's getting an intelligence briefing on a daily basis from his national security adviser mike flynn. it wasn't whether or not he was getting the briefings but it did cause a stir so much as it was what he said effectively about the intelligence community that he doesn't need to hear the detail. when that happens he'll be easy to find. >> peter alexander, thank you so much. on duty outside trump tower. to california and dianne
feinstein joining me now. thank you very much for being with us. you know the intelligence community well as the outgoing chair, ranking democrat on the intelligence committee. let's talk about the relationship between donald trump and the intelligence community. he's not getting off on a good basis having really dismissed with some contempt the need for the presidential daily briefing. saying that these are the same people who brought you the iraq wmd false reporting. what would your advice be to him? >> my advice to him would be to take the briefings. they are extraordinarily important. first of all, they give you a little bit of history. they give you a context of the problem. and when you do theme frequently, daily, every other day, you see changes. you can ask questions of briefers. that's important. you're going to get an informed view and the people that brief
the president brief him in things that we do not necessarily know on intelligence because the pdf, the presidential daily brief, is something that's for the president only. it is not part of the regular intelligence transmission to the committees of the house and the senate. so it is very important. who briefs is important. their body language is important. what they say is important and they are very careful. so i would hope the president would reconsider that there is a history and there is a need of the brief with respect to south korea -- excuse me, north korea, and what they are doing with nuclear, with the south china seas and what china is doing there. with the middle east and syria and isil and the russians and iranians and the syrian government. and there is with the history of
russia. that may be a history of which the president-elect is not fully familiar. i think in dealing with the country like russia, a huge power, it is really important that you have the context that an intelligence brief gives to the president of the united states. >> he has chosen to be for his secretary of state someone who is in his own mold. a global business leader. aides describe rex tillerson as trumpian. someone who goes his own way who doesn't have experience in government. that's unusual for a secretary of state. at the same time someone who is close to vladimir putin as a matter of business, who was there six months ago and was criticized from the podium of the assistant secretary of state for going to the conference in moscow and someone who cut deals with the kurds and countries
around the world. are these issues that are of concern to you with a nominee for secretary of state? >> of course it is an issue. i certainly don't know this gentleman. his life working experience has been with exxon. i was told he's well thought of in the business community. but soft power, diplomacy is a very specific use. and the history and the context and what predecessors have done, all of that, you know, to understand history is to prevent a lot of the bad from happening in the future. so that's the surprise to me that there isn't the understanding of the role that fact and history plays in some of the appointments.
so we'll see. at least you know he's a new book for most of the senate. it's very hard to see the ceo of a big oil conglomerate as secretary of state. but we'll see. he may surprise us all. >> the "new york times" has an extensive investigation into how the hacking from russia occurred and how warnings from an fbi man to the dnc were overlooked, not followed up by the fbi or the dnc. so the russians had seven months of unfettered access to the dnc computer systems at the beginning of this whole episode. what has this taught us and what concerns do you have? >> let me say what i think i can say. i have tried to be able to tell you the number of times i have received classified briefs and from home. i'm told i can't say that because it's classified. but assume that that's the case. and assume that a gnu of top
people have briefed a number of members of the senate. i'm sure members of the house. i can tell you what my belief is. i believe this is an incident of foreign espionage. i believe it is a classic covert operation which russia has performed before on other countries. i believe it is interference in our election and i believe it is an effort to dirty up one of the candidates. that's a quote and that candidate was the democratic candidate for president of the united states. it was e-mails related to democrats that were released to the tune of 18,300 a day over a period of time. i won't say there is no evidence. at least i don't see at this time any interference with the actual election process because
i haven't had the briefing. but with the campaigns with the democratic committee i see that. senator carden, senator leahy, and i strongly believe that there should be a 9/11-type outside examination of this. when i spoke to various republicans about this, there is a disagreement that anything bad happened. for me it is an act of foreign espionage and has to be dealt with. the most important part is who sanctioned this. how did it come about, how did it happen. we must know that because in my view our relationship russia depends on it. >> there is a lot of public reporting that both the fsb and the gru, two separate -- one
military, one nonmilitary supposedly from russia were both involved. you have a former kgb/fsb intelligence officer in vladimir putin. is it credible that anything of this nature could have happened without him knowing? >> i will say this. it is very credible at this point in time. without him knowing? i doubt it. it's credible that your statement is correct. >> finally, i want to ask you about the so-called torture report. are you disappointed president obama isn't declassifying it but instead is placing it in his presidential records which will keep it sealed for more than a decade? >> of course i am. it may not be the most opportune time because individual cases are pending. i have been worried about an effort to destroy the report and the president, by putting it in his personal archives presents that from happening.
and also means it will be declassified in, i think it is 1 11 or 12 years. there is no question that this report is important for posterity. it is important that leaders in the future read the 7,000 pages, that they look at the 32,000 footnotes. we don't draw judgments in the report. what we do is report the fact of the effectiveness of this kind of torture. the people who are now talking about this kind of torture saying they want to bring it back should know that when you are dealing with idealogues this isn't effective. i appreciated what general mattis said. i think he's right. i can cite cases of terrorism
where information was gotten like in the case of the blind sheik ali sufan. he got enough information so the blind sheik that bombed the earlier -- not the 9/11 bombing but the one that took place -- >> earlier in 1993. >> yeah. he pled guilty and asserting a life sentence. good techniques work. waterboarding does not. >> when hillary clinton came to the hill for the portrait unveiling of harry reid you took the opportunity to take her to dinner. how is she? >> we had a quiet dinner, just the two of us. i am extraordinarily fond of this woman. i think it is fair to say she's hurting. she is brave. she is a real professional in
the sense of her values, care, concern. i think all of us know who watch that campaign, it was a very hard campaign for her. the name-calling, the e-mail intrusion, the misinterpretation of what she had done with the e-mails. 11 hours in front of a committee while she was a candidate. she stood up to it all. so i think she has a spine of steel. i think she's going to come through this fine. but i think this is really a tough time for a wonderful human being. >> dianne feinstein, thank you for sharing with us. >> thank you. >> happy holidays to you and yours. >> coming up, the fall of aleppo. thousands of civilians trapped inside the city under siege. this is "andrea mitchell reports" only on msnbc. my business was built with passion... but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on
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aleppo will join the ranks of those events in world history that define modern evil. that stain our conscience decades later. rwanda, swevernitsa and now aleppo. to the assad regime, russia and iran, your forces and proxies are carrying out these crimes. your strikes have allowed the militias to encircle tens of thousands of civilians in your noose. it is your noose. >> u.n. ambassador samantha power with strong words at the u.n. security council about aleppo and the fact that her own colleagues there have done nothing to stop the slaughter. a temporary humanitarian
cease-fire was to begin at dawn. was broken as soon as the sun rose. forces ready to take civilians to safety remaining idle and empty. some of the people trapped in the eastern part of aleppo did get out tuesday. chief global correspondent bill kneely has the latest from beirut. what happens to those who escape? there were a lot of concerns. >> reporter: there are tens of thousands of people still trapped in eastern aleppo. the u.n. estimated it could be 50,000. there were people today and yesterday who did get it.
they were bedraggled in the rain leaving behind the runs of their home. some of the people will go to counts. there were reports that men were being taken out to be immediately conscripted into the syrian army to continue besieging aleppo. that was the allegation. back to the 50,000 people or so who are in eastern aleppo at the moment. last night they understood there was a deal brokered by russia and turkey which would mean many could leave on buses at dawn and leave the city all together. with fighters. that was the agreed deal. as soon as the sun rose the cease-fire disappeared as they often do in the middle east. it's been followed by a day of air strikes of artillery bombardment.
witnesses who are reporting from eastern aleppo. the people there, there is no sign it would be reimposed for the buss to be in place tomorrow. >> it doesn't seem anything will prevent that from happening. what's the next step, the larger picture as far as the opposition is concerned and the civilians were trapped. >> you're right. aleppo has all but fallen. all the rebel districts in three weeks fell like dominoes. the fall of aleppo doesn't mean the fall of the rebels. and the end of aleppo's war doesn't mean the end of the war. maybe four or five different wars. we saw a few days ago when isis retook palmyra, the war is very
much on and it's still in its capital in syria. there is an area controlled by the rebels in the south, the kurds control areas, the turks certainly don't like the idea that the kurds control these areas. the fall of aleppo, if it happens in the next few days isn't the end of the war. it will continue. it may continue in four or five different areas. it may be four or five different wars. >> thank you so much for trying to capture this tragedy for us. people feel helpless. our government feels helpless. we know john kerry keeps negotiating and he's at one point been overheard expressing frustration to the syrian rebels visiting new york. that the white house wouldn't permit him to do more. there is disagreement there as the administration comes to a close.
thank you. coming up next, the perfect weapon. a stunning new report in the "new york times" exploring how russian hackers invaded the u.s. one of the reporters behind the investigation joins me next. every day starts better with a healthy smile. start yours with philips sonicare, the no.1 choice of dentists. compared to oral-b 7000, philips sonicare flexcare platinum removes significantly more plaque. this is the sound of sonic technology cleaning deep between teeth.
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and work together in real time to help those that need it. the ability to collaborate changes how we work. what we do together changes how we live. according to the "new york times" the fbi knew about the hacking of the democratic national committee in september of 2015. it alerted the dnc but because of missed signals on both sides and a very slow response the threat wasn't taken seriously and the opportunity to stop the russians was missed for seven long months. joining me, david sanger, who authored this. this is an amazing article. how can this happen? >> there is a story of just human in competencompetence or signals or just not being able to put the picture together.
that's not all that unusual when you come to cyber chases. in this particular case a fairly low level fbi agent was designated to call the dnc. he gets the help desk like you and i do when calling with your problems with your laptop. the people who ultimately answered this who were cyber security people hired by the dnc but not big names in this by any means didn't really believe it was an fbi agent. didn't act quickly and the fbi didn't escalate it. it's not like somebody was quoted in the story saying the fbi was dealing with some company or organization that was in the middle of the woods in alaska. >> right on capitol hill. >> they could have walked between the fbi headquarters and there to get coffee. in that interim time is when john podesta, the chairman of
the hillary clinton campaign was hacked in his own gmail, not the campaign's. >> thousands of pages of e-mails going back ten years. >> it ended up getting fed out in the fall. what we put together was what we thought was an extraordinary story of missed signals at the front end. by the time it got to the white house there was not clear attribution to the russians to the degree that president obama was satisfied. then they didn't want to get involved in what could seem a partisan affair. then they didn't want to go do something to provoke the russians to act on election day. >> at the same time, general clapper finally did as the head of national intelligence did on october 7 make it very clear, as did mike rogers of the nsa. they said it was the russians. they didn't say it was to influence the election. they said it was the russians. >> they said it was to disrupt
the campaign. >> disrupt. >> first of all, october 7 was a little late. we had run the story in july that i think you and i talked about on this show in the middle of july that said that the intelligence community had come to a conclusion with high confidence that the hacks were coming from russia and from the russian government. it took until october to get the consensus out to do that. then the president decided not to go use a set of sanctions capabilities. he could still use them in the next 30 days i guess. that he had put together after the sony hack done two years ago so he would have a weapon in this happened. >> very briefly there was a ferocious response by republican officials, trump officials and reince priebus from the rnc previously and the rest. at the suggestion in the "new york times" over the weekend that the republicans were also hacked. >> that's right.
they narrowed the response carefully saying the rnc itself -- >> so it was providers. >> -- had not been hacked. of course like everybody else including many news organizations, many campaigns they move their data off to outsiders. it's that data that was hacked. >> david, rex tillerson as the next secretary of state, if confirmed, has a very complicated relationship with russia, with chad, with the kurds. he was criticized by the state department six months ago for participating in a putin-led economic conference where other countries because of sanctions did not. how do they disentangle this and get the value of having a very smart global leader that donald trump wants and has a right to his own person, all things considered. and still know whether he's making choices that are not influenced by his 40 years with exxon mobil. >> that's a very good question. the upside of rex tillerson is
that he knows global leaders and he knows some of the world's worst dictators who happen often times to sit on top of some of the world's largest supplies of oil. the down side is because he spent 41 years at exxon we don't know the degree to which he can turn his mind toward moving from the interests of the shareholders of exxon to the interests of the united states which maybe sometimes are we are going to sanction you for human rights violations, not sell you arms, something that would breach the relationship. he said he was not a big fan of the sanctions issued against russia for its activities in ukraine including the annexation of crimea. one of his first big decisions would be whether or not to recommend the united states keeps the sanctions and president-elect trump told me back in july when maggie and i interviewed him he was not terribly interested in keeping
the sanctions himself. >> just today, the u.s. has refused an arms sale to saudi arabia because of yemen. what would a secretary of state tillerson do about that? >> it's usually the state department that is the restraining influence. you and i have covered a lot of these. usually the pentagon or someone who wants to sell an ally these arms. usually the state department has the role of saying, hey, let's look at how they are targeting these. let's look at the human rights abuses. let's figure out if this is a country going on the terrorist nation report. >> david sanger, congratulations on an incredible investigation. you have done it again, sir. >> thank you very much. we are following major breaking news out of new york city. a two alarm fire in manhattan. the hospital is on first avenue and 30th street in the kips bay area. the fdny is on the scene. we'll have more on that story as
it develops. stay with us right here on "andrea mitchell reports" for breaking news. we'll be right back. says it won't let up for a while. the cadillac xt5... what should we do? ...tailored to you. wait it out. equipped with apple carplay compatibility. ♪ now during season's best, get this low mileage lease on this cadillac xt5 from around $429 per month, or purchase with 0% apr financing.
speaker paul ryan. [ booing ] >> oh, no. i have come to appreciate him. where is the speaker? where is he? he has been -- i'll tell you. he's been terrific. you know, honestly, he's like a fine wine. [ laughter ] every day goes by i get to appreciate his genius more and more. if he ever goes against me i'm not going to stay with that. okay? >> donald trump on paul ryan's turf in wisconsin where he was booed. trump giving a not very subtle warning to the house speaker to
stay in line or else. joining me now for the daily fix, chris cillizza, founder of the washington post fix blog and jeanne cummings. chris, this is so vintage trump, as we say, pun intended about the fine wine that is paul ryan. you can't make this up. >> no. i was going to say classic trump which is two things. the sort of, hey, i know i was hard on this guy. now that i have gotten to know him, he's great. also with the secondary warning of if he's ever not great to me, i will turn on him meant as a joke but not really. this is donald trump's relationship with everybody. he's written in "the art of the deal" likes to keep people on their toes. likes to be unpredictable. likes for people not to know exactly where they stand with him.
these aren't natural allies. he's the social media president-ele president-elect. interesting that jack dorsey isn't there of twitter. to their sector. it is net neutrality. it's taxes. then it extends into social issues as well. it is a wide array of issues they have not in synch with the president-elect. this is their first opportunity to try to sit down with him, talk about what issues they might have in common.
trying to patch over a breach that might be here. the tech industry is an importa important. >> a long awaited news conference. going to lay out how he separated his business activities from being president of the united states. he was told he would be turning over the business in some fashion. turning it over to don, jr., and eric and other executives. >> we already know from the reporting out today that donald trump, jr., was involved in the
recruitment of ryan zinke. it's the cross pollination of people who were intimately familiar with donald trump's business and the president-elect. i don't have any good indication that donald trump will do anything along the lines of what good government folks would like him to do including a full walling off. he's said, i won't do more deals and i have already turned down billions in deals. which in and of itself is an eyebrow raiser. he feels anything he does is more than he needs to do because as he's said he's in the legal right here. it is not possible for the president under the law to have conflicts of interest. anything he does he'll tout as a celebration of transparency even if many people would disagree with the assessment. >> part of this is that he's not answered questions for a long
period of time. traditionally there is a post election news conference. ronald reagan didn't have a news conference for six months in 1984 during the re-elect finally did after he was re-elected. that tradition -- >> absolutely. president obama held them day after day. president bush's transition, if not the president-elect himself, high level people held news conferences every day. >> and introduced new cabinet choices. >> and used the opportunity to send messages about the importance and priority of the administration. these have been a hodgepodge of names. sometimes one, sometimes three. no coherent message. going back to chris's point about the president being not bound by conflict of interest laws, that's true. what is a bigger problem for the trump administration is that there are certain rules within the constitution about accepting things of value from foreign
governments. that's where it's tricky. the whole thing to watch when he finally holds the news conference and announces what he's doing is does he maintain ownership. if he does maintain ownership many of the conflict issues simply won't go to play no matter who is running the business. >> thank you so much for our daily fix. coming up, too close, why one former russian minister called the tillerson pick a gift for putin. to richard engel, the former ambassador to russia joins us next.
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he couldn't have dreamed for anything like that a few months ago. >> a gift for putin. joining me former ambassador to russia and msnbc contributor, who knows russia well. what do you say about this? how does tillerson take off one hat and as jim baker said today, you take your approach based on where you sit. he will no longer be ceo of exxon mobil. how can he leverage his knowledge of putin, his closeness with russia and make it work to the advantage of the u.s. policy. >> well, i think it's going to be a challenge. it's hard to work 40 years in one institution with one set of goals and switch overnight. in part because you have different goals. in part because you have different issue areas. i'm sure rex tillerson and vladimir putin never talked about democracy and human
rights. i'll bet it's never come up in their meetings. as the secretary of state you have a whole entity within the state department to vote into democracy and human rights. i don't want to say it is impossible. i think it is a challenge. >> there was an economic forum in russia back in june. the state department spokesman john kirby was asked about it and about the attendance of rex tillerson. i want to play a little of that. >> think the ceo of exxon mobil is there. is this something you think is okay now? would you still discourage american ceos from attending? >> i think, first of all, our position hasn't changed on this. >> is the idea of a major american energy company selling its top official under mine the sanctions in any way? >> with the policy on russia to the u.s. business community in
multiple forms. each company's readership needs to make a decision. most understand attending the forum sends a question about the ability of russia's action. >> he's an energy company executive with a unique relationship with russia. >> yes. just so you know to clarify the obama administration was outraged he went to the st. petersburg forum. i know it for a fact. i used to attend with him before sanction s before when relation were close and we were trying to support trade and investment we welcomed the exxon mobil deal. afterward we asked the companies to pivot. of course they were hit hardest. that's the thing i want to drill down on a little bit. people need to understand this is not just one of many deals that exxon mobil did around the world. this was the biggest joint venture deal potentially ever.
300 billion, upwards of 500 and 600 billion dollars planned over decades. it was vital to their future as a company to have the deal and he invested the time to make it happen. now he'll change his portfolio. he has many issues to deal with regarding russia and the rest of the world. let's not forget that. he wasn't thinking about north carolina. he wasn't thinking about the nato alliance. where there wasn't oil, exxon mobil was not involved. that's the challenge for him now after four decades of focusing on other issues. >> should president obama have responded more aggressively against the russian hack months ago when the intelligence community first learned of it? >> my own view is yes. they should have responded more aggressively. the dnc should have responded more aggressively. the media should have covered the story. you know, that front page story in the "new york times" today,
why wasn't that in the paper in october? we can't go back and rewrite the rules from then. what we can do and i think is vital to do is to set up a bipartisan, independent commission like the 9/11 commission to investigate everything so we don't repeat the mistakes in 2020 that we did in 2016. i'm not confident that the obama administration can investigate themselves. i'm not confident that a set of hearings in congress which would be very polarized and partisan would get to the bottom of it. and the last thing i want to say is president-elect donald trump needs to have this investigation, too. he needs to have it wrapped up. he needs to have it clear that he had nothing to do with this. that's my presumption. so when mr. tillerson flies to moscow as secretary of state and begins to negotiate about something else, we don't keep coming back to the story, well, it's because of the hacking he's doing this kind of bidding.
it's in everyone's interest that we have a commission set up. we know the facts and move on so 2020 is a different kind of election. >> thank you so much ambassador mcfaul. coming up next, investigators awaiting the announcement from the fed about an expected interest rate increase. the first since 2006. how it will impact you right here on "andrea mitchell reports." [burke] at farmers, we've seen almost everything, so we know how to cover almost anything. even a rodent ride-along. [dad] alright, buddy, don't forget anything! [kid] i won't, dad... [captain rod] happy tuesday morning! captain rod here. it's pretty hairy out on the interstate.traffic is literally crawling, but there is some movement on the eastside overpass. getting word of another collision. [burke] it happened. december 14th, 2015. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪
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the federal reserve an hour from now is expected to announce it is raising the key rate, only the second time since 2006. what does it mean for you? domenic chu joins me now. what does it tell us about the economy? >> overall you are talking about this widely expected raise of the benchmark rates. a quarter percent is what the market is expecting. it would be the first time they have boosted interest rates in a year. the second time in a decade. so traders and investors will be watching for at least
commentary. the fed meetings where they will hold press conferences afterwards. this is all eyes and ears on the fed and what was said about -- >> domenic, let me interrupt you. we have mike pence speaking right now outside trump tower. >> -- bill gates and of course we are all very enthusiastic that governor rick perry has stepped forward to lead the department of energy. the momentum and the pace of this transition will continue forward all the way into the holidays as we assemble a team to make america great again. thank you all. >> domenic, forgive the interruption. he was just announcing officially the rick perry and going forward. i'm sorry about that. whether or not the economy is
promising. this will be a huge thing. if there were cost increases, the economy would have to be able to sustain them. the average home borrower would pay more for the mortgage. whether or not the american consumer can take on cost increases will be key. we'll listen to what the chair has to say this afternoon. back to you. >> and whether we get a response from donald trump on twitter. he's been critical of her in the past. in the past presidents have been hands off for the most part on fed policy. thank you very muc >> busy day on wall street. more next. nicare, the no.1 choice of dentists. compared to oral-b 7000, philips sonicare flexcare platinum removes significantly more plaque. this is the sound of sonic technology
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