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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  December 28, 2016 5:00pm-6:01pm PST

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important to harry reid. >> if automation gets here by tomorrow it won't be the worst thing. thanks for being here. that's "hardball" for tonight. thank you for being with us. "all in " with chris hayes stars right now. >> tonight on "all in" -- >> friends need to tell each other the hard truths. >> a harsh warning from the u.s. to israel as the president-elect prematurely enters the fray. tonight debating america's role in israel and why donald trump is officially off the fence. >> let me be sort of a neutral guy. >> plus -- >> the stock market has stopped rising until what appears to be the trump rally. >> inside the so-called trump rally and the dangers of a president taking credit for what he inherits. then author rick pearl stein on the nixonian grievances of donald trump as he lashes out at
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president obama. pizza gate to actual vote tampering. what americans are willing to believe. when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. in 23 days donald trump will become president of the united states. and today in the wake of the united nations passing a nonbinding resolution demanding that israel stop building settlements in palestinian territory, a resolution trump had tried to kill at the behest of the israeli government, trump appeared before reporters at his mar-a-lago resort in florida where he seemed to suggest he could pull the u.s. out of the u.n. entirely if it doesn't, quote, live up to its potential. >> you've been critical of the u.n. lately. do you want the united states the leave the u.n.? are you considering that move? >> the u.n. has such tremendous potential, not living up to its potential. there's such tremendous potential, but it is not living up. when do you see the united nations solving problems?
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they don't. they cause problems. if it doesn't live up to its potential it's a waste of time and money. >> this morning trump criticized president obama for impeding his transition with inflammatory words and deeds. trump struck a far different tone saying he had spoken today with the president on the phone and there conversation had been very nice. the outgoing secretary of state john kerry delivered a remarkable speech in washington today to which he rebuked israel in uncharacteristically blunt terms. kerry arguing israel had pursued policies that he said undermine its stated commitment to a two-state solution with the palestinians. >> the israeli prime minister publicly supports a two-state solution, but his current coalition is the most right-wing in israeli history with an agenda driven by the most extreme elements. the result is that policies of this government which the prime minister himself just described
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as more committed to settlements than any in israel's history are leading in the opposite direction. they're leading towards one state. >> kerry's speech amounted to a declaration that if the two-state solution is dead, it's to the government of prime minister benjamin netanyahu, not the obama administration, that killed it. >> friends need to tell each other the hard truths. and friendships require mutual respect. despite our best efforts over the years, the two-state solution is now in serious jeopardy. >> unsurprisingly secretary of state kerry's comments generated an outraged response from netanyahu who has been harshly critical of an obama administration that in september finalized a deal to give $38 billion in military aid over ten years. >> i must express my deep
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disappointment with the speech today of john kerry, a speech that was almost as unbalanced as the anti-israel resolution passed at the u.n. last week. >> the u.s. abstained from that resolution, declined to use its veto to plock block it. the israeli government accused the obama administration, something kerry strongly denied today. in the words of israeli cultural minister, obama is history, we have trump. thank you for your warm friendship and your clear-cut support for israel. he cc'd two of trump's children for good measure. back in february trump had vowed to remain neutral in the middle east conflict. >> but whose fault do you think it is -- >> i don't want to get into it for a different reason, joe. because if i do win, you know, there has to be a certain amount of surprise, unpredictability.
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our country has no unpredictability. let me be sort of a neutral guy. i'm going to give it a shot. it would be so great. i would be so proud if i could do that. >> trump backed away from his neutral stance. he no longer seems so unconcerned about unpredictably. we cannot continue to let israel be treated with such total disdain and disrespect. they used to have a great friend in the u.s., but not anymore. the beginning of the end was the horrible iran deal and now this, u.n., stay strong, israel, january 20th is fast approaching. congressman, are you on trump's side on this? >> i don't think so. i think his appointment of david friedman to be the next ambassador to israel is really a step backwards in our effort to achieve a two-state solution. i think that obama has been a very pro-israel president. this resolution is not much different than resolutions that passed under and with the
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acquiescence of reagan and carter and others and, of course, as you mentioned, you've got the largest military aid package by far that israel has ever received, negotiated by the obama administration. >> do you approve of the administration's decision to abstain in that vote? >> i think that's a mistake. >> hold on. you essentially said that it reiterated the policy. so if that's the case, why is abstention a mistake? >> for many years, mostly obama year, we've prevented the u.n. from passing unbalanced resolutions and this resolution focuses on settlements as if that's the major obstacle to peace. the major obstacle to peace is not only the terrorism coming from the palestinian side but their position sometimes disguised under the slogan two-state solution -- right of return, rather, is their phrase.
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their use of the term "right of return" to put forward a position which if you really look at it calls for the expulsion of all jews or virtually all jews from the middle east. so it's the extreme position that the palestinian state, not just hamas -- >> just a question for you, congressman. there seems to be conflated today. there's two separate issues. there's a question of does settlement expansion is that the obstacle to two-state solution or the obstacle to peace, that's one question. and the other is settlement expansion justified? forget whether it's an obstacle to peace or not. maybe you're correct that the real obstacle lies in palestinian extremism, but on the question of whether it's justified or not, you agree with the president of the united states, secretary of state, longstanding u.s. policy, correct, that it is not justified, right? >> i don't agree with every settlement. i don't agree with everything that anyone else does. and you can argue that this settlement is in the wrong place. the israeli supreme court has called for the abolition and destruction of certain outposts. but that isn't the major issue.
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the major issue is the terrorism, the incitement, the teaching of terrorism -- >> so let me ask you this. then what is your position on the charge by the israeli government -- it's a very serious charge. benjamin netanyahu has made this, the ambassador has made this. that not only the u.s. government conspired with folks on the unsecurity council to bring about this resolution and steer it through about that john kerry and the administration are now lying about having done so. do you agree with them that john kerry is lying and the administration is lying? >> the secretary's speech certainly didn't deny that there were discussions with the proponents of this resolution, and had there not been, the resolution would have been much worse. though whoever crafted the resolution, whether there was an american diplomat sitting next to them or not, knew what the obama administration's positions were, knew how to draft it so that it wouldn't get vetoed in this lame duck situation. and if the authors of the resolution had not taken obama's
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beliefs into account, it would have been a much, much worse resolution. it might have been so bad that it would have been vetoed and then perhaps that into have bwo been a better outcome. it's clear the authors of this resolution were aware of obama's thinking. >> are you hopeful now -- do you think it is appropriate for the israeli culture minister to basically say good-bye, president obama, we have trump now, for the prime minister of israel to be interacting with the president-elect, lobbying him to come out in opposition to this, the president-elect coming out, is that an appropriate thing for a president-elect to do during the transition? >> well, we do have a first amendment and even presidents-elect are allowed to express their opinion. >> first amendment doesn't touch appropriateness. >> right. and i think that this whole country has gotten more and more partisan and the rules of appropriateness have eroded and
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continue to erode. so i think it would be more appropriate if president trump focused only on putting together his new team rather than trying to effect public policy during this transition period, that would be more consistent with the traditions of this country, yet at the same time i see all the traditions fraying as the country becomes more partisan. >> congressman brad sherman, thanks for your time tonight. happy holidays and happy hanukkah. >> good to be with you. >> joining me now assistant professor at george mason university. what was your reaction to kerry's speech today? >> i thought it was remarkable. i didn't expect that to come out of his mouth. i think that's what the u.s. administration has thought. i think it's the thinking behind closed doors of every u.s. admistrationp until this point. and what was remarkable is that they basically made it clear to everyone as well and intersubjectively acknowledged it. the obama administration is sharing this speech 23 days left
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in office. they can do little now to nothing in order to make it meaningful with marshaling its political pressure. >> how do you make sense of the timing here? because there's a lot of head scratching about the timing. there's head scratching about the timing of these things that happen in quick succession. that the critic of the obama administration say that you're a coward, that you made sure to sign the aid deal in the run-up to the election because you knew that would be politically popular then after you allowed this to come forward to the security council and give this speech. what's your read on the timing? >> look, the obama administration is incredibly frag matic. they're not doing this because of moral reasons. they're doing this because it's not that costly and because the obama administration has an interest to disassociate itself from what's to come. the trump administration is going to consolidate israel's apartheid project, cement it, accelerate it in a reckless way and the obama administration has laid the groundwork for that to happen. it had the opportunity to do this in 2011, 2012 during the
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statehood bid. it had the opportunity to do this in 2015, to set a timetable to end the occupation. it had the opportunity not to increase military aid from 3.0 to $3.8 billion over the next ten years. everything the obama administration has done has set the stage for what trump wants to do. so this is an effort to wash their hands and to change the legacy that they're not associated with what trump is about to do. >> let me ask you this, you said israel's apartheid project. one of the messages of the speech today, john kerry who i think would very strongly disagree with that language specifically, is that it's essentially on some road, israel, given current settlement growth to the two-state solution being no longer achievable. it seems likely to me that that is kind of dawning awareness. i have to say things that i've read of you, other folks in this sort of palestinian rights community, it seems to me the folks that i read primarily have basically given up on the two-state solution. are we moving towards a moment where people just sort of
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officially throw in the towel on that? >> i think this is a great learning moment for u.s. audiences to check out a map. if you can't make it to the region, and many people can't because israel denies entry to those who aren't interested in human rights specifically, this is a great time to look at a map and let people decide for themselves. the occupied territories are 22% of mandatory palestine. israel has never declared its borders and has expanded them. the settlements we're talking about aren't part of the perimeter of the west bank to expand israel's defensible borders. the settlements are built in the middle, they by sect the west bank -- >> no, i understand that. noura, you are citing the facts on the ground and that's something -- >> so that speaks for itself, chris. you're saying that -- >> what you're saying is -- i mean you're saying without saying is yes, i do think that the ship has sailed on a two-state solution. >> no, it's not without saying it. i'm just trying to illustrate for those who don't already see it for themselves, the ship has
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sailed a long time ago. this threat that we'll get to an apartheid situation is actually not true because we're already there. we've been there. the settlers and palestinians are inextricably, they're not separated. they're inextricably populated. the only thing that separates them is the vast difference in treatment, the diffent set of laws that apply to jewish israelis and to palestinians even if they live side by side. that is an apartheid reality. >> so then do you think there's anything that the u.s. could do at this point? it seems to me that here's what we're looking down the barrel of. from your perspective. a kind of a leninist heightening of the contradictions. your position is that essentially the israeli government and the u.s. government say they're for a two-state solution and they're not and it's a bad faith farce while things change on the ground while what you get is something that looks more like just an honest, you know, we will support israel in whatever they do and we support the
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settlement? >> i think that the united states has, unfortunately, spoken one thing about law and policy and their support for a palestinian state but has done a different thing altogether on the ground and has made this apartheid reality very possible. i really -- it should strike everyone as quite odd and strange that there is this hoopla and reaction to condemning settlements. settlements are settler colonies. they're a war crime under international law. this should not be controversial. if you are not against settlements then you are for apartheid explicitly. the questions we should be asking is not whether you're for this, but what are you going to do when it is on the ground nothing but the apartheid reality? what are you going to do then? >> noura erakat, thank you. >> thank you. >> i wanted to get your read on what is sort of a remarkable trajectory here from trump which i think is a little underappreciated. part of the kind of factions in
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the republican coalition that cotton to trump earliest were the paleoconservatives, the pat buchanan lineage. and that's skeptical of trade deals, skeptical of the iraq and foreign wards and hates, loathes the neocons and is sometimes tinged with a little more than a little anti-semitism with the zionists running policy for the republican party and is very skeptical of a kind of in-line pro-israel stance from the sort of republican party. that's where things seem to have started and they have now ended up in the -- very far from that. how do you explain that? >> i think it's worth noting, i mean, you're right about trump's claim that he wants to be a neutral guy, they wants to make this big deal. he said that early in the primaries. it's very much worth noting that when he said that and that was seen as a kind of heresy against republican party positions to say i'm just going to be neutral and not take sides, not only did
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he continue to win republican primaries, he won, among christian evangelicals, which are seen as some of the most pro israel constituencies in the republican party. so i think that, you know, let's leave that aside for the moment even though i think it says that there's a lot more political space to run on these issues than many would have us believe. i think eventually when he came around to give his big apac speech, he seemed to adopt some of the more traditional very right wing pro-israel positions and now we see with the nomination of friedman, the ambassador to israel, he seems to have gone completely all-in even to the right of netanyahu. >> and in terms of the coalition what's been fascinating to me some of the voices, bill kristol and jennifer rubin, folks on the right who are very critical of trump who sort of formed a real core of the never-trump universe, they're now completely aligned with him on this
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specific issue. there's a sort of interesting kind of coalition management that's happening through his performance of opposition on this issue. >> right. no, i think that's a great point. because, you know, he's gotten, you know, right on the israel issue, but he still maintains a very vigorous critique of a whole set of other positions. he's critical of the iraq war. >> right. >> he's critical of nation building. he's hugging up to sisi. he seems to have dispensed with the democracy promotion something that the iraq war was sold upon. so for a lot of this faction that as long as you're correct on israel and backing netanyahu, then everything else we can just put aside. >> do you think -- i want to ask a question that i was asking noura which seems floating in the air and the subtext. can you imagine a trump administration saying, yeah, it's no longer u.s. policy that we object to settlement expansion and we no longer view the two-state solution as the
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preferred goal? can you imagine an american administration saying that and what its effects would be? >> i can imagine it just because personally i have no real idea of the policy that will exist in a trump administration knowing how he chooses to make various decisions. but there's one thing i would point out here. i mentioned the friedman nomination, a very pro-settlement right wing of israel's right wing but there's also the mattis nomination, the head of centcom, general james mattis who said at various times in a specific interview, i think it was 2013, where he talked about his experience as head of central command in the middle east and understanding the negative impact of the israeli/palestinian conflict on u.s. interests in the region, supporting secretary kerry's negotiations process, a very realist analysis of the way that this conflict undermines u.s. relationships in the region. i'm interested to find out how that conversation's going to
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go -- >> yeah. >> and what that impact will be. >> that's a really excellent point. matt duss, i appreciate it. moments ago donald trump emerged from mar-a-lago and it turned into the closest thing to a press conference that we've seen from the president-elect in months. here it is in full. >> hello, everybody. everybody okay? you all know don king? who doesn't know don king? >> great to be an american. now with our leader, we're going to make new days, make america great again. >> is your israeli flag a message for the president? >> it's about peace, peace in the middle east and shimon peres and sew o we want everyone to c together. he's the leader that can make it happen. >> are you guys okay? everything fine? >> yes, sir. >> go ahead. >> we wondered do you have any further comments about kerry's
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speech? >> yeah, it speaks for itself. >> but he said that friends need to like set friends straight and that's one of the things -- >> we have different views and we have to have peace. we'll see what happens after january 20th, right? i think you're going to be very impressed. >> mr. president-elect -- >>he 5,000 jobs at you announced today were part of the 50,000 -- >> sprint will give you -- i just spoke with the head person. he said because of me they're doing 5,000 jobs in this country. they just put a release out. hope has it. you'll see it. that's that. and they're also doing -- masa is doing 3,000ons with, as you know, one web. >> so those 5,000 jobs. >> 5,000 to sprint. no, no. >> are they not part of the 50,000? >> i'll give you their statement. >> mr. president-elect, there's a lawsuit where journalists are trying to get the records that congress saw for an alleged russian intervention in the
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election. do you think any records -- >> i think they should do the best they can, figure it all out. >> sir, do you think there should be an option for -- to get health care in the united states? >> i had three of the greatest in the world today, cleveland clinic, mayo clinic, johns hopkins, the three top people from the best in the world, and they were amazing and they have really good ideas. we have to get it fixed. i've been saying we're going to take care of our vets and we're going to take care of our vets. i had the three greatest people in the world. if you look at those institutions, i think you'd all agree. they were all in a room together with myself and some others, and we're working on something to make it great for the veterans because the veterans have been treated very, very unfairly. i don't want to see veterans waiting in line for two weeks and in many cases they have a minor illness and it takes so long to see a doctor it turns the out to be a major illne nen
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and beyond that. we'll see what happens. if you look at my website, i pretty much called it. but they want to see fast service. the doctors were explaining to me today things that can be taken care of quickly when you wait too long, it's life threatening. that's what's been happening. people are dying. we'll fix it properly not like it's been done over the past. >> how close are you able -- >> you said that you wanted to resolve the new york ag's office says you cannot do that until they finish their investigation. >> well, i have a foundation that has given millions and millions of dollars to people over the years. and it's been very well thought of. we'll see what happens. but it's given millions and millions of dollars. zero expense. zero. nobody has that that i know of. but zero expense. so that's working out very nicely. >> how close are you to showing off the plans for your business? and are we going to hear from you? >> that's very routine. honestly, it's a very routine
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thing. not a big deal. you people are making that a big deal, the business because, look, number one, when i won, they all knew i had a big business all over the place. in fact, i reported it with the, as you know, with the federal elections. it's a much bigger business than anybody thought. it's a great business, but i'm going to have nothing to do with it. i don't have to. because, as you know, i wouldn't have to do that by law. i want to do that because i want to focus on the country. when i ran, people know i have a very big business. they elected me i guess partially for that reason. so i guess that's going to work out very easily. it's actually a very simple situation. it's not a big deal and we'll be having a press conference some time in early january. >> a little bit more of your conversation with obama today. is the transition of power going as smoothly as you would have hoped? >> yeah, he called me. he called me. we had a very, very good talk about generally about things. he was in hawaii.
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and it was a very, very nice call. and i actually thought we covered a lot of territory, a lot of good territory. >> are you satisfied with the transition thus far? >> well, our staffs are getting along very well. and i'm getting along very well with him. other than a couple of statements. and i responded to. and we talked about it and smiled about it. and nobody's ever going to know because we're never going to be going against each other in that way. so but he -- it was a great conversation. >> mr. president-elect, senator graham today said that they're putting together a sanction to go after putin personally. will you back that? >> i don't know what he's doing. i haven't spoken to senator graham. as you know, he ran against me. and i haven't spoken to him. >> you have to admit he shocked the world. nothing else to say, he shocked the world. >> senator graham ran against me. i haven't spoken to him. >> what do you think about sanctions? >> i think we'll get on with our
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lives. the whole age of computer has made it where nobody knows exactly what's going on. we have speed, we have a lot of other things, but i'm not sure you have the kind of security that you need. but i have not spoken with the senators, and i certainly will be over a period of time. >> sir, do you believe -- >> i think you know what i believe. i'm very, very strong on israel. i think israel's been treated very, very unfairly by a lot of different people. you look at resolutions in the united nations, you take a look at what's happened, they're up for 20 reprimands and other nations that are horrible places, horrible places that treat people horribly, haven't even been reprimanded. so there's something going on and i think it's very unfair to israel. thank you very much. thank you. >> all right. that was president-elect donald trump with don king holding a
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u.s., israeli and i think a few other flags in his sort of signature denim coat. a man who was going to speak to the rnc until reporting indicates that having a convicted murderer who had stomped a man to death at the rnc meant manslaughter would be sort of a weird look, but there he was, the president-elect down at mar-a-lago with the famous don king. and taken more questions than he's taken since the election. joining me now catherine rampell. so that seemed like a typical trump performance. not a ton of answers. >> a lot of deflection. >> a lot of deflection. what stuck out to me was this sort of back and forth on sprint today. so the president-elect says basically i talked to sprint, bringing back 5,000 jobs. sprint says that was part of a thing that we'd already agreed to and arranged. he seemed to go back on that. it shows you how slippery it can be to cover this present-elect's claims. >> yes. his claims should be taken
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seriously but not literally or whatever the expression du jour is. >> right. >> because it's very hard to take them literally because they would contradict each other at every turn, which makes it very challenging. in the case of the sprint back and forth, they had announced or their parent company anyway had announced 50,000 jobs being created here in the u.s. a few weeks ago, actually. post election. but prior to that, their owner had also announced that they were going to be investing something like 50 -- >> billion dollars, that's right. >> -- in the u.s. >> that's right. so their owner is the masa bank based out of japan. they had made this announcement prior to the election in the campaign season. >> right. it was very likely even then that a lot of that would go to the united states. >> right. >> beyond that, one wonders what trump may have said to sprint, you know, they have a merger that's being considered right now. so we don't know what the trade-offs were. we don't know if this would have happened either way. i think in sprint's perspective,
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the best thing they can hope for is that trump believes that they're doing this solely because of something persuasive that he said. >> and i think you got -- look, it's interesting, they have not -- you know, they've not had him do a press conference, a real press conference. that wasn't really a press conference. call it availability. he took a number of questions and he answered them. the day after the rnc, the day of the last press conference where he infamously looked in the camera and told the foreign government to committees pe esp against his opponent. >> cyber espy onnage. but the same stuff we saw in the campaign and what we can expect in the administration. >> why bother answer any questions, right? nobody's really holding him to it. his voters don't seem to care. he can change his positions on any given issue and he's
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forgiven. so why bother participating in the process of democracy if he doesn't have to essentially? >> and we should note that in keeping away from press conferences has tactically paid its benefits down the stretch of the campaign. his handlers and staff recognized that he tended to do things in the press conferences like calling on the russians to hack his opponents' e-mails -- >> well, he was erratic in other ways as well. keep him away from twitter. i don't know that it made or broke the election. >> as a reporter, i have to say, it is nice to be able to ask questions and even if you don't get answers have some back and forth as opposed to waiting around for the next tweet then just analyzing those. >> obviously. but my point being that i'm not sure that his erratic behavior was necessarily curbed by his not having these press conferences. maybe it helped his campaign, maybe it didn't. at the very least you could argue, yes, this is bad for
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democracy, to not having the press hold his feet to the fire. >> we'll talk about one last thing saying his business conflicts were no big deal. that doesn't seem to be the case according to most experts i've talked to on this and actually it is a pretty big deal and actually divesting is difficult and fairly complicated. that's something that will continue to dog him until some concrete details are given. catherine rampell, thanks for your time. airing his personal grievances on social media. who might be the closest comparison in presidential history. get a repair estimate. liberty did what? yeah, with liberty mutual all i needed to do to get an estimate was snap a photo of the damage and voila! voila! (sigh) i wish my insurance company had that... wait! hold it... hold it boys... there's supposed to be three of you... where's your brother? where's your brother? hey, where's charlie? charlie?! you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you. liberty stands with you™ liberty mutual insurance
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he called me, he called me.
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we had a very, very good talk about generally about things. he was in hawaii. and it was a very, very nice call. and i actually thought we covered a lot of territory, a lot of good -- >> are you satisfied with the transition thus far? >> well, our staffs are getting along very well. and i'm getting along very well with him other than a couple of statements that i responded to. and we talked about it and smiled about it. and nobody's ever going to know because we're never going to be going against each other in that way. >> that was donald trump moments ago fielding a question about a brush back tweet he sent to the current president of the united states this morning saying doing my best to disregard the many inflammatory president o statements and roadblocks. thought it was going to be a smooth transition, not. the first thing he aired. but a look at the twitter feed will tell you about his attitude of people that criticize him in any way.
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the steel workers president of a local at carrier, trump tweeted chuck jones has done a terrible job representing workers. after alec baldwin made fun of him on snl. tweeting his disdain for the same show he hosted weeks before. just tried watching "saturday night live," totally biased, not funny. trump biography tried to explain this behavior, rejected by parents who sent him away at 13, he became a bottomless pit of need. this is not the first time we've elected a president consumed by this particular emotion. with no such thing as twitter back then, type writers were used to draft vindictive notes on how to treat reporters. treating them with considerably more contempt is in a long run a more productive policy. we'll tell you who wrote that next.
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rather is just a son of a bitch, don't you think? >> he's always been a son of a bitch. he's a bastard period. he's very sensitive to that. >> have you arranged that? >> yes, sir. >> i'd hit him hard. >> one of the defining features of richard nixon's presidency was his distrust, even contempt for the press and his attempts to keep reporters at arm's length. it was through this carefully constructed effort to shape his public image that led to the activities that eventually cost nixon his public support and led to his resignation, something
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rick perlsteen talks about in his book. one of the things that comes through in this incredible book is how central to all of nixon's personality, leadership style, political style was grievance, pettiness, vindictiveness, getting back, a chip on his shoulder that people didn't take him seriously and he would show them. how much nixon do you see in trump? >> on that basic core question, that bottomless pit of need that kind of absence where a soul should be that has to be filled with domination and control, it's absolutely a nixonian. but i would, like so much of trump, turn it up to 11. different was nixon was very shrewd and tactical, said u husband, careful, so he wouldn't have been tweeting. he would have been saying, let's
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take away "the washington post's" broadcast licenses that they rely on for their revenue, which trump may be doing soon when he's granted the power of the executive office of the presidency. >> there's two things to follow up on. one of them was nixon was -- what's striking to me is not just this need to sort of always get back at people he feels have slighted him in the case of donald trump but also the publicness of it. nixon would not have taken to the podium and said, i don't like this person, this person and dan rather. he was self-controlled enough to channel that. this is different in so far as it's all just out there in the public. >> but this is the prejanuary 20th trump, chris. think about it. you know, william benny, the whistleblower at the nsa has called basically the spying apparatus that a president has at his disposal created by bush but continued by obama turnkey
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totalitarianism. once trump can find out anything his enemies are up to and find out where their vulnerabilities are, maybe find embarrassing things about them, leak them to breitbart and soon it's on cnn, god forbid, msnbc, then we're talking about a different ball game here. >> that's where the sort of real impeachable offense is for nixon came in. a bunch of things he did. but one of the things he did obviously was he had this group of folks that broke into watergate and did other things directed at enemies they discussed, they tried to break into a therapist's office at daniel elsberg. >> they succeeded. >> which is a crazy thing to happen. what is your sense of how strong the civil service was in resisting nixon's attempts to gr use it as a tool to pursue vendettas. >> the civil service has and had strong protections and that
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drove him crazy, too. most famously the bureau of labor statistics, what happens when they start saying the unemployment rate is 9%. trump cannot take that laying down. certainly richard nirksen didn't. he ordered one of his aides, fred malik, who is still involved in the republican party and the conservative moment, to count the number of jews in the labor statistics so he could know who to cut off at the knees. he knew the irs was a very powerful tool. so he basically ordered the irs to create an operation in the basement in a locked room devoted to trying to take away the tax exemptions of anti-war groups and liberal groups. that's what the enemy list was for. >> this is a key point when you sort of merge this with the -- i had forgotten that the malik, the famous malik example was about the bureau of labor statistics. rick perlstein, thank you for joining us. >> thanks, chris, cheers. >> pizza-gate, stunning new
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polling on what americans believe to be true. plus tonight's thing one, thing two which starts right after this break. this is my body of proof. proof of less joint pain. and clearer skin. this is my body of proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis with humira. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. it's proven to help relieve pain, stop further joint damage, and clear skin in many adults. humira is the number #1 prescribed biologic
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thing one tonight, sam brownback, the republican governor from kansas has some advice for the president-elect telling "the wall street journal" that trump should mimic his kansas tax plan. brownback's idea eliminating the 4.6% state individual income tax for partnerships, limited liability corporations and similar businesses. he called it a real life experiment. >> but on taxes, you need to get your overall rates down and you need to get your social manipulation out of it. in my estimation, to create growth. and we'll see how it works. we'll have a real live experiment. we're right next to some other states that haven't lowered taxes. you'll get a chance to see how this impacts a particular
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experimental area and i think can ca kansas is going to do well. >> as the governor is now recommending trump adopt that same economic model for the nation, it would seem logical to take the governor up on his offer, to assume the experiment the working out great for kansas. we'll take a look at the results in thing two in 60 seconds. many people clean their dentures with toothpaste or plain water. and even though their dentures look clean, in reality they're not. if a denture were to be put under a microscope, we can see all the bacteria that still exists on the denture, and that bacteria multiplies very rapidly.
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that's why dentists recommend cleaning with polident everyday. polident's unique micro clean formula works in just 3 minutes, killing 99.99% of odor causing bacteria. for a cleaner, fresher, brighter denture every day. kansas republican governor sam brownback is so proud of his tax plan he's publicly advising trump to adopt it. it appears to be failing spectacularly in kansas. the massive tax cut blew a massive hole in the budget now a $350 million deficit is expected to grow. the state's credit rating has been downgraded twice. he used $2 billion designated for highway funding to cover the budget holes. the tax cuts have done little to jump-start kansas' economy
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overall. growth for this year projected to be flat compared with 2% gdp growth nationally. today we got one more economic indicator out of the region. brownback claimed in 2012 you can measure his kansas experiment against neighboring states which did not enact the same type of drastic income tax cuts like nebraska. justin fox from bloomberg has been tracking the growth. today found the gap has only grown this year. kansas is that blue line that's been stagnant, flat, for two years while nebraska's pulling away. so why would donald trump follow the advice of a governor whose policies caused credit downgrades and slowed economic hiring? the plan would probably be pretty good for people like donald trump. as the "washington post" reported on kansas earlier this year, the poorest 20% of households are now paying an average of about $200 more in state taxes according to analysis on the institute of taxation and economic policy meanwhile the wealthiest 1% of households are saving an average
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one of the defining features of 2016 was a revelation that different parts of the electorate live in completely distinct universes of knowledge. o the many fake news stories. stories like denzel washington endorses donald trump which didn't happen or the infamous pizza-gate conspiracy theory that drove one to enter a family restaurant in washington, d.c. armed with an ar-15 rifle. it's a disturbing trend that's continued even after the election. new polling out from economist shows how deep the problem really is. according to their post election survey, 49%, almost half of self-identified republicans, believe that it is definitely true or probably true that, quote, leaked e-mail from some of clinton's campaign staffers campaigned code words for pedophilia, human trafficking and satanic ritual abuse.
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that's the basis of the aforementioned pizza-gate conspiracy. similarly on health insurance only one in four republicans believe that the number of people without health insurance has gone down during the obama administration. a thing that is both demonstrably true and one of the signature achievements of this administration. 52% of republicans believe that millions of illegal votes were cast in the 2016 election. a conspiracy theory trump baselessly pushed himself on twitter after winning the election. and it's not just republicans. that same poll found that more than half of self-identified democrats think that russia went so far as to tamper with the actual vote tallies to get trump elected, something of which there is no evidence. from 9/11 truthers to wmd in iraq to the obama birther conspiracy, there are plenty of examples of myths that have pervaded one part of the electorate. but what does seem new and troubling is the extent to which
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these kinds of lies seem to be increasing in both frequency and reach thanks in part to the increasingly vulcanized and polarized ways we live and consumer information and given that the current president-elect has made a habit of stretching or making things up that are demonstrably not true how exactly will this epidemic of misinformation affect a trump administration carrying out his agenda? joining me now politics editor of the root and josh barrow. i don't want to think that this is so new, right? we all have confirmation bias across the ideological spectrum. >> right. >> we all partake of information in very selective ways. so what is new and to your mind here? >> well, what is new is this, chris, look, we've always had conspiracies. there are people who don't think we landed on the moon. there are plenty of polls that show that people really do believe the x-files and that we've got hidden aliens. but it comes from a mixture of
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cynicism about the government and the fact that people aren't getting their information from the same place. when you have a president-elect donald trump that says the government is full of liars and fools and you can't trust anything they say and there's people who believe that, they're willing to believe that the government will do anything and therefore a crazy story about pedophilia or denzel washington endorsing donald trump is the kind of thing that people will believe because they think the entire system is corrupt. >> there's a certain basic level which like even fairly basic policy details are just not known, right? you look at health insurance. goal of the aca, if it did one thing, more people got insured. 40% of republicans think that -- and 26% say the same. so at some level it's like the basic facts of the matter are not penetrating to anyone. >> yeah, although i think they may be somewhat better known than some of the surveys indicate. there's this really interesting study that a political scientist
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at the university of texas did where they did surveys like this and one was just a regular survey and another one that says if you get the questions right, we'll enter you into a drawing for a $200 amazon gift card. sure enough, when you do that, the answers get more accurate and the partisan gap in answers declines. it doesn't become perfect. but a lot of what this is is these sort of expressive responses. people taking the poll. they really don't like president obama and they give whatever they think is the negative answer about barack obama. >> so the question between like an expressive response and an actual belief, right? >> right. >> which i agree. but jason, then i go back to the birther thing. was obama born in kenya, 52% of republicans saying definitely probably true. josh is right. there's some level of the i just don't like barack obama answer. but then there's the answer i've talked to a lot of people i've interviewed who really do think he was born in kenya.
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and the person who is most associated with that ridiculous theory is going to be the next president of the united states. >> yes. and that's the crazy thing. i've said this all along about birthers. this is like scooby-doo logic that somehow obama fooled everybody except for these plucky kids and their dog that he's from kenya. here's the thing about conspiracies that lead to people believing them and believing this nonsense over time. because we've seen things that were once conspiracies turn out to be true. the idea that the u.s. government had any involvement with drugs in the inner cities seemed crazy then we had iran/contra and we find out they actually did, so people learn it will be true one day. >> there's this mass skepticism that seems to curdle. i'm going to say good-bye to you because we have breaking news. nbc news has confirmed that actress debbie reynolds has died at the age of 84, one day after
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the death of her daughter carrie fisher. gadi schwartz, what have you learned? >> we heard she was hospitalized after possibly reporting symptoms of a shortness of breath. we now know that she has died at the hospital. her son confirming that to nbc news. now obviously debbie reynolds, one of the most popular actresses of her time. the mother of carrie fisher. she has been in mourning since carrie fisher's hospitalization and subsequent death. now mother and daughter seeming to die within a few days of each other, very heartbreaking here in hollywood. a lot of people coming forward and expressing their condolences. but that's the latest we have right now. she was hospitalized for shortness of breath and we understand that she has now passed away. >> thank you, gadi. debbie reynolds, of course, legendarily married to eddie fisher with whom she had carrie fisher. in fact, carrie fisher was on the front page of the "the l.a.
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times" before she was even born. just when she was essentially conceived she was on that front page down at the bottom. debbie, eddie expect baby in november. debbie reynolds who was in a number of films and her marriage was a sort of brangelina of its day, eddie fisher leaving her for elizabeth taylor was a huge scandal at time. the incredible relationship that debbie reynolds and carrie fisher had, which carrie fisher was just talking about in a fresh air interview that aired recently, was the sort of grist for postcards from the edge, a relationship of tremendous love and devotion between carrie fisher and debbie reynolds, one that was reflected in carrie fisher's amazing work in her writing, in the interviews she gave, in the work that she would public throughout the years. and just an unbelievably heartbreaking turn of events at the end of this year. carrie fisher dying a few days ago at the age of 60, now news that her mother, debbie reynolds and her lifelong friend in the sort of most profound way that a
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parent and child can be a friend, dying just a few days later. that being confirmed at this hour. breaking news by nbc news. more now with ari melber in for rachel maddow, good evening. >> thank you at home for watching. i'm in for rachel who is out tonight. we have a lot on this breaking news. the day after "star wars" actress and longtime mental health activist carrie fisher passed away at the age of 60, her mother, as chris was just reporting, her mother debbie reynolds passed away at the age of 84. she was best known for her role in "singing in the rain." she was just 19 at that time. she was nominated for a golden globe as the character in "the unsinkable molly brown." we have some political news in the show tonight but we want to begin with nbc's gabe gutierrez who has more on

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