tv Lockup Raw MSNBC June 18, 2017 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT
due to mature subject matter viewer discretion is advised. msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. now the scenes you've never seen, "lockup: raw." >> on the ground. >> we're going to run military style. strict. >> before any inmate sees the inside of a prison, he's most likely first seen the inside a jail. >> i'm just sitting in a room. i don't know if it's night or daylight. >> and nothing about jail is for the faint of heart. for some, jail is the ultimate
limbo between freedom and a life behind bars. or even worse. >> i've accepted the fact that a potential outcome of trial could be a death sentence. >> and for better or worse, time in jail changes everyone. >> i'm afraid of how long he's already been in jail and that it would change him. i hope it doesn't change his heart. >> there are distinct fferences between america's prisons, and jails. prison is for inmates convicted of crimes and are now serving sentences. while some jail inmates are also serving sentences, the majority are not convicted, but are being held awaiting trial for the resolution of the charges for which they were arrested. there is another difference that has made jails a rich source of
stories for "lockup." >> unlike a prison where most of the population comes from across the state, in jail, most of the offenders come from the local area. they know each other. they reflect the personality of the city itself and no better example of that is when we filmed inside suffolk county jail, boston, massachusetts. >> [ bleep ] >> he's boston. get familiar. don't get it twisted. he's boston in this. >> in boston it was almost like we got to learn the lay of the land because people talk so much about the different neighborhoods in the area they were from. everyone in boston was proud of their neighborhood and different represents it once they were inside and kind of stuck to the people that they knew from their neighborhoods inside. >> i'm boston. he's boston. not dorchester, charlestown. east boston. >> do you know -- >> how many movies have they made on east boston?
>> listen, you know the movie "the rat." whitey bulger. [ bleep ]. that's the claim to fame. >> no, he ain't! >> yes, sir, that's all he's got. that's all he's got. >> they're from chelsea. >> you live in chelsea? >> see you later. >> i'm out of here. >> the inmates in boston shared more than neighborhood pride. they also knew how to throw a punch. >> every day. we respond to fights every day, sometimes they're one-on-one fights, sometimes multiple detainees are involved. >> got hit with a tread. >> he beat the [ bleep ] out of me. >> we just stomped him. >> on numerous occasions, the "lockup" production team would be in the middle of an interview when a fight call would come
over a deputy's radio. >> however, we've had him down. got to go. be right back. right back. got to run. >> you guys must do a lot of running if you're looking at fights. >> we just break the camera off the tripod, grab the boom as much as we can as quickly as possible and we head off to see what's going on. >> lock in, guys. lock in now. >> we told the stories behind several of the fights that broke out in boston during our "extended stay" series. but there were others, as well. one involved two haitian immigrants who had known each other outside of jail. one of them was frank jules. >> what happened, sir? >> i don't know. people come to me and fight me.
i don't know what it is. he just kept fight me. i not see his face. he drop me on the floor. this is -- this is not right. i want to see him first. i don't know -- i don't fight him back. he keep fight me. i don't know who this is. >> jules told the responding deputies that he was attacked by surprise and did nothing to provoke the fight. later, captain michael caldwell reviewed jail surveillance footage and confirmed jules' account. >> and what you'll notice, this gentleman mr. jean baptiste is just coming into view, and it's an unprovoked attack on mr. jules. mr. jules, from our perspective, and from the officers' observation, never fought back to defend himself. detainee jules did not see the attack coming. and you can see that mr. jean baptiste really manhandles him
for quite some time, actually launching a flying kick there. >> i never do nothing to you. why would you just come to beat me and take me, drop me on the floor like that. like someone who you're trying to kill me, right? so why? my neck, i can't move it. and now i feel headache. i feel headache. and then keep -- >> while jules said the attack was unprovoked jean baptiste told jail officials he was acting on a long-held grudge from the streets. >> inmate jean baptiste blamed inmate jules for his previous incarceration. i don't know what happened on the street between them but he blamed everything on inmate jus. apparently he's been waiting two years to get his hands on him. >> both inmates went to the seg unit. inmate jules was found not guilty, and he was released from the seg unit and put back in population the next day. inmate jean baptiste served 20
days in seg for that particular fight. >> i kind of feel good now, you know what i'm saying? i'm not going to lie. i feel good. >> so it's over? >> yeah. >> it's done? >> it's done. >> what if he retaliates? >> i just hope he don't try and get at me. i'm good. >> okay. >> you thought it was over, huh? you thought it was over. >> nearly every fight will have two different perspectives and getting a complete picture of what happened poses a challenge for deputies. in the shower. in the shower. >> on the ground. >> an attack in the shower between inmates adidas maston and brad flowers proved to be no exception. >> slow everybody down. we have two restraints. coming up -- >> he cut you? >> yeah. >> where? >> above my eye. >> suffolk county deputies
attempt to unravel the fight between maston and flowers. and another boston inmate shares jailhouse superstitions. >> i don't write my name anywhere in the jail because if you write your name in the jail, you're going to come back. we're both stuck in thisubfarm and you're about to hit 'send all' on some embarrassing gas. hey, you bought gas-x®! unlike antacids, gas-x ® relieves pressure and bloating fast. huh, crisis averted.
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we'll hear a radio call. they usually have distinct signals when a disturbance breaks out and we just go. we don't have any idea how it's going to play out. it could be over by the time we get there, it could still be going on but we have to respond. most of the time we encounter the responding officers and in that case we follow in close behind and let the story unfold. >> during our weeks of shooting, "lockup: extended stay" in boston's suffolk county jail, we often trailed deputies as they
responded to a multitude of inmate fights. >> other hand. slow everybody down. >> don't move. >> take him into his cell. >> stop running your mouth. >> okay? [ bleep ] >> what was that all about? >> i didn't even swing. >> what was that all about? >> basketball target. >> this fight was between inmates brad flowers and adidas maston. it occurred in the shower area, out of view of the jail's hundreds of surveillance cameras. >> turn around. put your hands through the trap. >> lieutenant keith maderus, one of the first officers on the scene, did see something important. >> i observed inmate mastons throwing closest punches and exchanging closest punches with inmate flowers. during the restraint he did drop a metallic object which was identified as a nail clipper which we believe was being used as a weapon.
>> most inmates will get 10 to 15 days in segregation for fighting. but the sanctions could be more severe if a weapon was involved. in this case, flowers seemed to suffer the worst of the fight with a thin cut over his left eye. >> nine, please. >> lieutenant maderus will question both men to determine what happened. he starts with maston who says the incident actually didn't start in the shower, but earlier in the gym. >> what was that all about? >> over a game in the gym. >> a game this the gym? what happened? >> nothing. he was losing and i got hit so started swinging and that's it. >> so the basketball game got a little rough? >> mm-hmm. >> you started talking smack to each other? disrespect each other or something? >> yep. >> so you just went back and decided to handle it? >> hum. >> who was in the shower? >> just me and him. >> who was in the shower first? >> he was. >> what about the metal i found onou?
>> you can check my radio. you can see there's no blood on it. nothing at all. you can check it if you don't believe me. >> he's got a cut over his right eye. he says you cut him with a weapon. >> you can check it out. >> i'm just letting you know. >> okay. >> mm-hmm. >> close 9, please. 7, please. >> lieutenant maderus will now hear the other side of the story from mr. flowers. >> mr. flowers, what happened? what was that all about? >> argument. >> an argument. >> yeah. >> where did the argument start? >> in the gym. >> in the gym? >> uh-huh. >> you guys had gym this morning? >> uh-huh. >> okay. and then what happened? came back to the unit and what? >> when i was getting out of the shower, he snuck in, tried to cut my face. >> did he cut you? >> yeah. >> where at? >> above my eye. my left eye. >> your left eye, right? you have been up there with him for a while. why is this popping off today? >> there's been some indirect [ bleep ], you know what i'm saying, like [ bleep ].
we was in the gym and i guess one thing led to another. i guess he snubbed me. >> yeah? nothing happened in the gym? >> arguing. >> don't lie to me. something happen in the gym between the two of you guys? fighting behind the curtain? be straight with me because you know i'm going to look at the cameras. >> it was no [ bleep ] >> listen were you fighting in the gym? >> nothing happened in the gym but words. i was just saying [ bleep ] to him. >> okay. so you guys had words -- >> i offered him to fight me in the gym. >> but he didn't? >> he didn't want to fight me in the gym. >> i appreciate you cooperating with me. >> one of the hardest parts of the officer's job is to get information out of the inmates after a fight, or any kind of situation occurs where disciplinary reports are being written up. it's kind of a rule of thumb for inmates not to talk to the staff about ything really. you know, you don't want to be labeled a snitch. no one wants to be seen that they're working with the cops. >> with neither inmate providing
details the jail gave both men time in the confinement unit. while many inmates in boston settle disputes with their fists, there are other stories to be told there as well. >> when we produce one of our "extended stay" series for "lockup," our crew will be in a prison or a jail for up to 50 days in order for us to produce six episodes. they will interview more than 100 inmates and maybe 20 or so will actually make it on the air and then sometimes we meet an inmate who plays a very small role in somebody else's story and they just appear in the show ever so briefly. but those inmates have stories to tell as well. and one of the advantages of "lockup: raw" is that we get to tell those stories. >> during the boston series, we told the story of melissa allen, and how her struggles with drugs led to a host of problems for
her and her family. >> all this is the dirty work. walk the street, sell drugs, do all that. a couple streets down, that's where i live. and they've put me in a room i can see everything i did. >> but inside suffolk county, melissa was striving to improve her life, in part, by studying for her g.e.d. that's how we met megan douly. she was voluntarily tutoring melissa. >> ten times number? you add a zero to a number. 10. >> 30, 40, 50, 60 -- >> yes. easy. >> she doesn't know the multiplication tables. i do. that's something i excelled in when i was in school. i have a job as a bookkeeper and everything else. so math is one of my better skills, you know. >> when we asked megan about why she wanted to help melissa with her schoolwork she had told us it was because of her father.
he influenced her to want to help people and do good and she was able to find a way to do that inside the jail. >> he was sober for 18 months when he died and i used to just watch him at meetings and stuff and young guys would come in wanting to go to a detox and my father would be the first person to say, i'll give you a ride. no questions asked. not even knowing them, just to help them out. and he always told me, if you can't help somebody, don't hurt them. and treat people how you want to be treated. that's one thing that my father instilled in me before he passed away. >> i don't know what it is, honey. i have no idea. >> like her father, megan had struggled with her own addictions. her use of heroin had led to several jail stays. on minor convictions ranging from sex for a fee to disturbing the peace. but this time, the stakes were more serious. she was awaiting trial on five drug possession charges, as well as being co-defendant on an armed robbery charge. she had pled not guilty to all
six charges. >> what kind of book am i looking at right now? >> megan was due in court the next day and was doing everything possible to not tempt fate. in the process, we learned something about jailhouse superstitions. >> i won't start a new book if i know i'm going to court or getting out, without having enough time to finish it. because i feel like if i leave a book unfinished, i'll come back to finish it. i just have superstitions. i don't write my name anywhere in the jail because if you write your name in the jail, you're going to come back. it's just different things. if an officer drops keys in front of you, that means you're going home. last time i went to bail review, the officer dropped keys in front of me. but i didn't go home, so i guess that one doesn't work. anything that i was wearing when i got arrested, i throw away and don't wear it again. >> as it turned out, megan
played her cards correctly. the next day in court, her armed robbery charge was lowered to a less serious larceny charge. and even though she was found guilty of that and the drug possession charges, she was released based on the time she had already spent in jail. whether any officers dropped their keys in front of her, we never found out. coming up -- >> all right, no gang affiliation? never have? >> absolutely not. i go to church. if that counts. >> yeah. >> sorting out the new inmates at the orange county jail. >> have you ever tried to hurt yourself before? >> absolutely not. >> are you thinking of hurting yourself right now? >> no, ma'am. choose philips sonicare diamondclean. hear the difference versus oral b. in a recently published clinical study, philips sonicare diamondclean outperforms oral-b 7000, removing up to 82% more plaque and improving gum health up to 70% more. its sonic technology cleaning deep between teeth.
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i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. booking.com gets it. they offer free cancellation if my plans change. visit booking.com. booking.yeah. "lockup" field teams encounter unexpected situations on a regular basis. >> you think i'm stupid? >> from vicious attacks -- >> i've got a knife. >> don't step in the blood.
>> to heartbreaking visits. >> my daddy. >> life behind bars can be an emotional roller coaster but it's when we shoot inside county jails that we get a look at where the ride begins. >> get off of me. >> relax. >> chill out. >> [ bleep ] you. >> virtually every inmate's first incarceration is at a jail, as opposed to a prison. and the booking department is where the reality of being a number, rather than a name, sinks in. >> line up on your right side make two lines. stop talking. pants off your legs, above your knees. let me see your stomach. put it down. >> we encountered robert as he was being booked into the orange county jail in southern california. all the way over. >> okay. go ahead and get dressed again. put all tuff back on. >> he was brought in aer failing to complete community service for a prior conviction of disturbing the peace.
the result of a bar fight. since his community service was in lieu of a five-day jail sentence, he will now have to serve some of that time, and this will be his first full night of incarceration. >> i'm a little nervous. never done it before. don't know what to expect, you know. just trying to keep by myself. keep peace. not trying to get into arguments with anybody. not trying to fight with anybody. you know what i mean. i want to be able to do my time and that's it. >> you look like you're getting a little emotional. >> yeah. >> from here on in, corley's every step is controlled by jail deputies. >> put your back against the wall for me. look up at the here camera for me and i'll take your picture next. these papers are yours to keep. walk on the lines to the right and stop on the red "x" in front of number 8 over there. >> the booking process examines corley's emotional well-being. >> have you ever tried to hurt yourself before? >> absolutely not. >> are you thinking about trying to hurt yourself now? no, ma'am.
>> as well as his physical well-being. >> they have an x-ray to check for tuberculosis. every inmate goes through that process. after that they go through a livescan machine, it's fingerprinting. >> right now we're taking electronic fingerprints that goes into a national database system. it allows us to positively identify the individual. >> and after that step they'll get classified with our classification deputies to determine what type of level inmate they are. >> no gang affiliations of any kind? >> never have. >> absolutely not. i go to church. if that counts. >> yeah. >> are you homosexual or raht? >> saight. >> tattoos? >> yes, sir. >> what have you got? go ahead and take your shirt off for me. >> the jail also documents tattoos for identification purposes and to determine if the inmate might have gang affiliations. >> what is that? a heart? >> yeah. it says sabrina. >> just not done yet? >> no, sir.
>> what's up with the six-shooter. you a cowboy? >> yes, sir, i was born in missouri. >> all right. that's what it's for? >> yes, sir. i'm all into old western. >> nothing else though? >> a girl's face on the back of my right leg. and that's it. >> golly, just keeps coming. calf? on your right calf? >> yes. >> nothing in your hairlines or anything like that? >> no. on my lip i have my initials. >> damn. >> r.c. >> r.c.? what is that in the middle? what's that in the middle? >> it was supposed to say robby but it didn't come out right. >> were you drunk? or what? >> no. >> you did that sober? >> yes, sir. >> all right. all right, let me see your left hand. this is the last time i'm going to see you, right? >> yes, sir. >> corley's tattoos are determined not to be gang affiliated. and he's cleared for a less restrictive general population housing unit. >> all right, man. you're good to go. >> thank you, sir. >> i.d. pickup. >> but first corley will experience one more sobering step.
exchanging his street clothes for jail scrubs and plastic sandals. >> let's see what this says. it says we're taking away your freedom right here. >> keep going. corley will wait in a holding ce with otr new inmas until his housing assignment is finalized. while corley's booking process was routine, many others are emotionally overwhelmed on their first day in jail. >> i'm in the orange county jail. i'm in a room with no windows, no nothing. so the incredibly minor accident that i had tonight- four weeks without the car. okay, yup. good night. with accident forgiveness your rates won't go up just because of an accident.
switching to allstate is worth it. at crowne plaza we know business travel isn't just business. there's this. 'a bit of this. why not? your hotel should make it easy to do all the things you do. we're following some breaking news out of london. london police are reporting a number of casualties in a vehicle collision in the fins bury square area, in central london. witnesses say a van hit a group of pedestrians. officers are on the scene with other emergency services, one person has been arrested, though. it is not clear yet if this was an intentional act or an accident. we have this picture on screen now that we got from twitter user cynthia van zella, she shot this picture from outside her apartment, it shows as you can see here clearly the crowd of people gathered around this
scene as well as a police vehicle. we're watching this with limited information as we're just getting this in from london. we are also hearing from london ambulance, from the london ambulance service, they were saying about 30 minutes ago on their twitter account that they have sent a number of resours to an incident in 7 sisters road, and the information is that at the moment we understand according to the information available to us that the london police are saying there is a number of casualties in what was a vehicle collision there in central london and the witnesses that were in this area, close to what you're seeing on screen here, had seen a van hit a group of pedestrians. this information just into us
here at msnbc. also through the london ambulance service, saying that they are sending resources there. they have sent, according to what they're saying, a number of resources, a van, whether that's ambulances, we are still getting information on that. the police, london metro police, saying in their tweet and post that police are on the scene, as we can see in this picture. they're dealing with what they're calling a major incident there at 7 sisters road in the finsbury square area. which is in central london. they first posted on this occurrence, this incident, about 36 minutes ago, there in central london, in finsbury square, the
local time in london is after midnight. about 1:31 a.m. so the london metropolitan police posting this information about 1:00 a.m., about 1:00 a.m. is when they first were making announcements that there was an incident there in finsbury square area. the london ambulance service also making note of that, right about the same time, so to get -- we're very early on therefore about half an hour in in terms of the number and amount of information that we have on this incident. we do not know if it is intentional. we know it is a van. we do know there are casualties, that is what the information is so far on the mets' website, they're saying they were called, just after midnight. about 20 minutes after midnight. that's about an hour and ten minutes ago, local time, and they were saying there were
reports of a vehicle in collision, with pedestrians, they also say that officers were on the scene, with other emergency services, and a number of casualties that are being worked on the scene, so although this picture was taken within that time frame, most certainly in this finsbury square area, finsbury park, you can see it is still early on, about an hour since the met were called, the london metropolitan police. there is one person arrested, according to the police. and -- we have an nbc news producer that is on scene. and has a better view and understandinof what ma be happen what do you know and what are you seeing? we he a picture from one of the posts from close by neighbor, what are you seeing
there? >> hello, richard, yes. i'm at the police corden, next to finsbury park station in near central london and i'm seeing dozens of police officers here, there is multiple police vehicles, incident response units and ambulances in the area, we're quite far from where the incident is apparently has happened and so it is very difficult to see exactly what is going on. there were a number of eyewitnesses that were talking to radio stations here that were describing a van driving into a cafe, obviously unable to confirm that at this time. however, as you mentioned earlier, the metropolitan police did say that they were on the scene and are dealing with a major incident in 7 sisters road, close to where i'm standing, 30 minutes ago. there also has been reports that one person has been arrested, as i said, at this time we have been unable to confirm that, so it is not clear exactly what has happened here or if there are any casualties and how many casualties there may be.
>> mac, what are you seeing, what are you hearing in the location where you're at? >> there is a lot of people standing around. at this time of day, the local mosque would have held a prayer session and people would have begun to break their -- for ramadan. there is a lot of individuals standing around who are apparently attending one of those prayer services. they seem to be repeating mostly what they're hearing on the radio, again, that a van drove into a cafe, and that there were a number of people injured. again, there is not a lot of real information coming out from the police here. they're not telling us exactly what is going on yet. we're still waiting for any kind of official confirmation of what is happening. >> we have a picture on screen, and we can bring that back up, of where this is geographically there in central london. finsbury park. can you give us a sense of where the 7 sisters road is at, this area where they're responding to
an incident? is it north, south, east, west of this finsbury park space? >> yes, richard, the seven sisters road runs directly between the finsbury park station, just north of the finsbury park mosque. it is quite close to the arsenal football club, which is quite a nice area for london, and this is one of the busiest mosques i believe in this part of london. >> i'm sorry. i had a little bit of technical difficulty there. you said it is south of finsbury park, the actual park itself? >> yes, that's correct. and just north of finsbury park mosque, on the south end of the park. >> and so in terms of the numbers of people in the streets right now, the picture that we have from one of the residents close by to this incident, it is packed. people are almost shoulder to shoulder. >> yes, that's correct. even standing where i am, quite a distance from the apparent
incident, there are dozens of people standing here. i would have imagined at this time of day that the area would have been very busy, a lot of foot traffic, and a lot of people breaking their fast after prayers at the mosque. >> and, again this is the holy month of ramadan. and after they were leaving that mosque, after the prayers that you were talking about were performed, and so part of seven sisters road, we understand, has been closed as they undergo this operation? is that what you're seeing too? >> yes, that is correct. much of the road is closed as far as i can see. to the west of my position, which is on the east end of apparently where the incident occurred, there is a very heavy police presence here, multiple police helicopters circling above us, and there say lot of traffic obviously ambulances, police vehicles, moving in and out of the scene at the moment. >> can you describe what kind of road that is, two-way, one-way, a wide road, fairly narrow, a
main thorough fare? >> this is a fairly large thorough fare for london. a four-lane, two-way road, it would see generally a lot of traffic and a lot of people moving in and out of the area, in and out of the station, finsbury park station is a large station. >> and this mosque, is it one of the more prominent ones? do you have any information or any awareness of this particular mosque? >> i am aware of the mosque. i'm not -- i don't have any information about the size of the mosque itself. i do know this is one of the larger mosques in the area. there is actually two mosques quite close to here. so there, again, would have been a large number of individuals who had been attending prayer sessions at either of those mosques who would have been breaking their fast at the cafes nearby. >> and how would you characterize this neighborhood in central london? >> i think most of central
london including this area, is quite generally an affluent area. again, in this particular area, you have finsbury park, a well known park, you also have the arsenal football club, emirates stadium, which is obviously a destination for many football fans throughout the country. >> and, mac, again, on site for us, mac bishop, nbc news producer there, in london, at the finsbury park area, close to a mosque there, a road closed. seven sisters road. we're getting information from london metropolitan police that in an incident there, they're not sure, we don't have any information in terms of if it was intentional that a vehicle after a call was made about 12:20 p.m., right after -- a.m., right after midnight, it would be a very early monday when this
came into london metropolitan police of a vehicle that collided with pedestrians, again, unknown in terms of intentionality. officers then on the scene, along with ambulance resources, we don't know how many, but we'll go to mac in a second and see what he says there, a number of casualties according to the london metropolitan police. and they're being worked on at that scene. one person has been arrested, we don't have any more details about who that person is. mac, do you see ambulances there? do you see what they're calling potentially those who are hurt, being worked on in that space? >> i'm unable to see anybody being worked on, from where i'm standing, richard. so it is not clear to me the extent of the medical response here. i have seen a few ambulances moving towards the area, however, i currently don't see
any on site. >> and -- >> it is not clear to you right now. >> on a night like this, not during ramadan, on a sunday, after midnight, is this fairly quiet area then? because it is so late and it is after midnight on a last day of the weekend? >> absolutely, richard. this is normally a very quiet area. you know, much of london actually more or less shuts down after about 11:00 p.m. on any night that is particularly true on a sunday night. so i wouldn't have expected to see very many people on the streets on your average night, not during the holy month of ramadan. >> now, also some of the information that the met has retweeted or roads that are closed, seven sisters road now closed, also saying that northbound at hornsy road and southbound at rock street closed
as well due to what they're saying is an emergency services incident. and that they're diverting traff traffic. is there a sense that you do see many vehicles having to -- if you move around or circumvent that space? >> there are a number of vehicles being turned away by police. what you also have is you have a lot of pedestrians that, you know, either live there or are trying to get to various locates along the street. the police are turning them away. >> now -- >> go ahead, i'm sorry, please. >> go ahead, richard. >> i was noticing just asou're speaking here, and giving us what you can see there, mac, but it sounds somewhat quiet. i'm only listening through the microphone coming from your phone. what are the sounds you're hearing there? >> the police do not have their sirens on, mostly what i'm hearing is the crowds, discussing their options with the police, trying to get more
information. i would say at the moment, the crowd is fairly calm, they're just trying to get more information, they want to know when they're going to be able to get through this area, they want to know exactly what is going on, and, of course, the police are in the able to share any of that information with them at this time. >> are they cordening off those roads and so that's why in the one picture we have got here, those who are in the area are not allowed to go down that road, vehicles are not allowed, at least clearly, from what the information is that's been provided to us so far. >> yes, that's correct, richard. they have police vehicles blocking the roads, in addition to police barrier tape and then actually where i'm standing, there is a line of about $12 officers standing shoulder to shoulder behind that police tape. and they are obviously discouraging anyone from heading this way. meanwhile, you have other police who are trying to direct traffic, trying to move buses and delivery trucks away from the area, as they continue to
respond to this incident. >> do you understand maybe why they do not have sirens on at this moment? does that -- is that any indication of the pace or the severity. it is very early and we don't know many of the details. it would seem that based on what they are putting out on their twitter feeds, to the public, and the number of individuals that are around this area, that they might consider using those, but the are different protocols for fferent processes. >> i would just say that from my experience that police tend to use sirens a bit more sparingly than you would find in the states. certainly ones on the scene. they'll lose their flashing lights on, but generally not their sirens. >> i'll bring in jim cavanaugh, i'm sorry, who is with us, and so many times have we had to look at incidents like this, jim, and from the information that we have got so far, and you
heard what mac was telling us on the ground and what the met, the police are telling us, what are you seeing? >> well, it sounds like they stabilized it, richard. i think you were right in talking with the person on the scene there. they have one in custody. that's been the report. we haven't confirmed that. one person in custody is the initial report. and they seem to have stabilized the scene. of course, large crowds on the street in london, i spent time over there with the metropolitan police, in scotland yard and all over london and england on bomb and gun issues. they police very crowded inner cities. it is very densely populated. you can see how tight the sidewalks are with people. that is an additional risk when you're dealing with the possibility of a terrorist attack. but sometimes hard to control pedestrians and neighbors when they live in an area like that because they're concerned, there is family members, friends of victims, and so you know it the questions crowded. the first challenge is to get
out there and try to thin that out and because you don't want some follow on attack. you really want to thin that out, take care of the victims first. if they have the assailant in question, in custody, and he's alive, questioning can begin to determine motive, you know, what is it? a drunk, directly targeted attack, who was the driver targeting if it was a targeted attack? you know, richard, we have all been on talking about england, from manchester to london bridge to westminster, and the climate over there, you know, we could also see a revenge attack, people, you know, targeting muslim population, trying to put the sins of terrorists on the larger muslim population. revenge attacks. we see that kind of stuff too. we don't know what this is. we don't know who perpetrated it. we don't know the reason. but police investigators have to keep an open mind to see what
they're dealing with. and the main thing, of course, is there any other conspirators and could there be any other attacks afoot in the making imminent. that's the major thing you want to do when you're the commander there. that's what you go for first, that's what we always went for first, is there anybody else, any other bombs, any other shooters, let's get that stopped first. and then we can do the investigation. >> as you know so well, working with them personally, and you and i speaking just on june 3rd, when we were looking at london bridge together, as that event unfolded, is that the london metropolitan police are very careful and very methodical, not only in the way that they are undertaking their operations on the ground, but also in the way that they are releasing information. >> yeah, they do things -- a lot of things they do is very similaro the united states law enforcement, a lot of things they do very different. you know, the way we conduct
undercover operations, for example, in the united states, we conduct scores and thousands of hundreds of thousands of undercover operations every year in the united states. they conduct very few. they don't operate that way. there say lot of similarities as well. there is a great connection we have as u.s. law enforcement with them. and they're efficient, very good, good at what they do. they know how to police england and london. the met, of course, is, you know, 30,000 plus, i don't know the exact number now, maybe 35,000. they have a lot of personnel, state of the art forensics. they're very, very good. they get to the bottom of the stuff fast. the anti-terrorism squads are good, the bomb squads, they have all these technical people and they're efficient. they do keep everything close, which sometimes is a good thing in an investigation. but systems it is -- it is better to let out a little more
to get the public on your side and get the public relieved of the tension too. that can go both ways. but there are initial statements seem to be very, you know, vanilla, very, very lacking in a lot of detail. very short. that breaks out from journalists who get it from witnesses and journalists who go to the hospital and find out what happened. so sometimes that doesn't really work well for you. you need to really take a few items that are really sacred for your investigation and put them on the side and in the safe, i always call it, those won't get out. other things really won't hurt the investigation, will help us as law enforcement interact with the public and maybe gain more witnesses and maybe get more information so you got to weigh all those things, but they're going to do it as they see right. the main thing being for the citizens of london and for u.s. persons traveling to london for all the u.s. personnel in london is this -- this incident now tonight, this one event, is it
over? and right now it looks that way from what we can see. but we don't see what the police see. that's the main thing on their mind, is this incident over. >> mind, is this incident over. >> sor re, jim. >> and yes. >> mac was saying that many vehicles, and very few siren, and maybe that decision telling you why it is under control, and how do you think about that or talk about that? >> well, you know, i think that i have not been a uniformed cop, and we always hate sirens. we turn on the lights on if we can move and the sirens were annoying, and of course, the fire and the ambulance have to use the sirens more, because of is big vehicles they drive to get through the traffic f. we could get through quick without all of that noise, we liked that, and sometimes we had to sneak up on the robberies or the people with gun, and you don't
always want to come in like that, and so once they are there and stabilized if they have somebody in custody, that is going to be cut down on that and try to get the forensics in there. maybe i have already transported the injured. so you will see a lot of sirens when the injured are are transported from the scene to the hospital. if that is a quieter time now, then maybe more indicative that all of the injured were transport and at the hospitals that. could be possibly, and we don't know, a sliver of good news that it is quieting down like that. >> and let's bring in lucy kafanov at the london bureau. >> i live in the borough where this is locateded. and so i could heard hear the hel komters above, and what we
have heard is several pedestrians hurt by a van as witnesses said that it veered off of the road into crowds that were outside of the finsbury mosque. and the metropolitan police said that officers were called in at 12:20 in the morning, and officers are on the scene as we speak as my colleague mac bishop described to you as well as other emergency services. the london ambulance services tweeted that they have sent a numb ber of emergency ambulances to seven sisters road which is right nearby that area, and the mosque, and the police say a number of casualties being worked on at the scene. one person arrested according to the met police who say that more information is going to be released once it is confirmed. obviously, no details about the motive or the types of people involved here. but this is coming on the heels of numerous attacks here in london and the most recently the borough market attack which took place a few weeks ago in which
people were killed. we saw the incidents in manchester and of course, the westminster attack, and so there is a lot of nervous energy in the city, but we are working to find out exactly what took place here. no information at this stage whether it was a deliberate attack or not, but you can understand why people are quite nervous abt this situation, richard. >> lucy, since you are familiar with the area, how would you describe it, this mosque? what is it known for in central london? >> well, i'm not familiar with the mosque, itself, but i know that it is a five-story building and medium-sized mosque. i am not sure in terms of the population or the members of the congregation there numbers, but we know it is close to the arsenal football club, and this is the ramadan holiday and very important holiday in the muslim religion so that people would have been gathering at the mosque to wrap up their services
before having their iftar meal which you would consume if you are fasting for holiday. so quite a few people there at at that time. and even though this appears to have taken place just after midnight, and so it is not necessarily busy with the people enjoying the bars and the clubs at that time on a sunday and the things close quite early there in london and it did have worshipper, and this is something that we can confirm, and we did see some speculation on the social media that it is maybe targeting the muslims because of the location where the attack happened and because of the timing, and the ramadan holid holiday, and because of the proximity of the mosque, and again, it is speculation on social media that we cannot confirm in any way, richard. >> and is this neighborhood typical of most at midnight, and now close to 2:00 a.m. local time, and fair areally quiet
other than the incident tonight? >> well, fairly quiet, and this is a a wealthy area, and northeast london and still central london and expensive housing around ther and a lot of the restaurants, and bars, but again, on a sunday, those would have been closed. this town does tend to shutdown on evenings leek this, and especially on sunday, to have pub luck laws to prevent any noise or reveille at this time of night. and so that is why there is all of this speculation of why this is targeting the mosque, but again, that is not something that has been confirmed by the authorities. all we know at this stage is that the police are on the scene, and several casualties, and we don't know whether they have been taken to the hospital, and whether they are worked on in the area, and we do understand that one person has been arrested but the police are cautious in releasing any information and holding off to confirm more, and basically those facts are all we have at this stage, richard.
>> than ing you, lucy, and those facts that you were intimating and looking back at only two weeks ago, 15 days ago you and i were covering a very unfortunate incident that you were putting in a time line for us. what is the mood there now that we are two weeks on from that situation in which did include a vehicle and more, and that is proven to be intentional and again, what we are watching here, and we do not know the intentionali intentionality, and not only the those who live in london, but the london met as they are come out of the june 3rd attack? >> sure. well, the london met is obviously following all of the procedures in place. they will be methodical about this. especially in light of all of the attention that has been focused on the police, on the security services, and the aftermaths of the previous attacks. there has been quite a bit of
criticism in the case of manchester, and westminster, and in the case of the borough market attack, because in several cases to a attackers were known to the authoritieses, but this is a different situation, and simply too early to tell what incident this is, and so they will be cautious in releasing the information, but in terms of the mood of the people in the security services, this is exhaustion, richard. it is attack after attack after attack, and the devastating fire to be covering and not to be a reporter who quotes the are taxi driver drivers, but the taxi driver who took me no the office after we found out about this attack said not again, not again. this is something that has been in frequent succession here in london and people that the i have spoke n to say they don't feel like they have had a chance to take a breath. every time the residents of the city and the residents of the country rally together to try to overcome an incident, something new feels like it is happening.
again, it is too early to speculate if this fits into the vain is of the other tragedies that we have been talking about, and it could potentially be a car accident, and we don't know, even though the police are call it a major incident, but it is again something that londoners are exhausted with quite frankly, richard. >> and what we will do, sometimes, lucy, as the situations start to develop as they begin to unfold to get a sense especially bringing in the frustration that londoners are going through is to look at local media and how they aare reporting will reflect that mood that the local population is going through. it is early on, and only two hours into this at the moment, it appears, but how has local media handled this incident tonight just based on that sort of the frustration that you -- r
was relating to you? >> well, in terms of the local media, caution so far, and bbc has not broken into the local programming, but sky news has cautiously approached this, because we don't want to jump to conclusion, in light of the terrorist attacks that have taken place in recent weeks there. is an understandable reason why people are worried that it could be an incident in that vein, but we have to express some caution when categorizing this incident, because it is such early hours. we know that people are rushing their reporters and different authorities to the scene to try to understand exactly what took place. but in terms of the mood, i mean, there is an increasing sense of frustration and ainger with the authorities and leave this this incident tonight to the the side for the moment, because we can't quite categorize it, but we had the
succession of three terror attacks and then fire. a lot of pressure on ther ree a is a may's government, and don't forget that last week is when we had the june 8th election which resulted in a hung parliament, and so there has been a sense of the attitudshifti when it comes to the authorities. a lot of criticism over what has been described by some critics as incompetent handling of the terror incidents as well as the fire. not by the emergency services of course, because those have been p performing to the best of their abilities, and that is another important pointb to mention. i mean, these the first aid w k workers and the hospital workers, and they are human people, too, and they are dealing with the casualties and attack after attack, and fire and now this vehicle running over several pedestrian, and it is something taking a toll on the emergency services as well who have been working around the clock, richard. >> good point made. we are at the top of the