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today we celebrate our independent days. >> good morning! and welcome to "a.m. joy." today, after spending a couple of hours with us, of course, many of you will be beginning your preparations to celebrate our independence day. for many of thaw means the usual, clean off the grill, stake out a spot to watch the fireworks and wrap yourself in the good old red, white and blue, but this fourth of july demands of us something beyond the routine because this independence day our president is not a fictional handsome dashing alien fighting leader with a rousing message of unity and resist an. our president is donald trump. who instead has this message about aliens and independence day. >> this legislation presents a simple choice. either vote to save and protect american lives or vote to shield and comfort criminal aliens who threaten innocent lives, and they've been shielded too long. as we head toward the fourth of july, we remember now more than
ever to cherish our freedom. >> not quite the same. so this holiday, the trump presidency compels us to confront some very serious questions about the substance and not just the symbolism of what it means to be a patriot. how do we commemorate our independence from a foreign power when our president cries fake news in response to facts that a foreign power has undermined our democracy? how do we bask in the glow of fireworks illuminating the statue of liberty when our president rejects her welcome to the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. how do we honor the self-evident truths about americans' right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness when the congress is controled mostly by men pulling out all the stops to force through a policy put the lives of 22 million fellow americans in jeopardy by taking away their health care. in the de
"when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same object econvinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government." now it leads not to the throne of a king but to the door of the white house, how do we do our duty as modern day patriots and respond in joining me is a great panel, msnbc political analyst joan walsh, nbc news contributor anand gary dardask and rob reiner. rob you have the disadvantage are not being at the desk. i know you're working on a movie about lbj so you're think being presidents and what they mean symbolically. when you think about this moment in history, is it a direction, and how do we sort of deal with it when looking at fourth of july and thinking about our patriotic selves? >> well, it's kind of scary,
because it could be a direction that we're taking, and we fought for our freedom and for democracy 240 some odd years ago and this is the first time in our history that we have a president who is not fighting for democracy, and is not fighting to keep us safe. we've been attacked by a foreign enemy power, and he refuses to acknowledge it, and he turns his back to it. so this is a very scary time for us. i mean, this president is either frightened of what the probe into this attack might reveal in terms of making him illegitimate or he's worried that crimes that he's committed have been e exposed. i suggest it could be both, but whatever it is, i've never, as an american, felt so unsafe, and i've said this. you know, i wasn't a big supporter of george w. bush.
i didn't agree with a lot of his policies, but when we were attacked on 9/11, i never doubted for a second that his main objective was to keep us safe. this is the first time we've had a president who i believe is only interested in his own well-being and not interested in the well-being of the country. >> and joan, you are nodding because it is a strange sort of thing that the president literally refuses to acknowledge that our greatest sworn adversary is even an adversary at all and won't do anything about russia's intrusions on our sovereignty. >> he doesn't want, to doesn't take it seriously and that is really disturbing. we learned about that this week. even if you doubt, even if you know in your heart, which he probably doesn't, that you have nothing to fear, it's not about getting you elected or defeating hillary. it's about how did they get into our systems. was there any tampering with the voting rolls there's some talk about that now and how do we
ensure that doesn't happen in 2018 and 2020. that's a national security issue an issue about protecting democracy and he shows absolutely no interest. no one in the administration can get him interested in doing anything about it. >> and yet anand he has certain fears he wants to project onto the country and quite frankly a lot of his voters share with him. one of them is this sense immigrants are overrunning the country, a certain kind of immigrant is overrunning the country. you did a really fascinating tweet storm, i retweeted it this morning our show account will hopefully retweet it now where you talked about the sort of interesting find in the muslim ban that might sort of dovetail with the anti-immigrant fears. can you explain? >> the president has tried many times to dip and double dip and triple dip in this kind of muslim ban gotten chastened by the courts and when he was chastened by the supreme court and given a little guidance about a kind of muslim ban that would work, they required him to define who would be bona fide
connections to the united states, and who would be bona fide family connections. this put the united states government in the position of defining family as a formal policy statement this week. and which relatives count as relatives and which don't? and the list was very interesting, because the list of now allowed legitimate family as defined by the u.s. government is filled with the kinds of relatives beyond the obvious nuclear ones who are prevalent in countries with high divorce rates, which is great. that's fine. on the not allowed list are lots of types of relatives that are more prevalent in asia, latin america, africa, where aunts and cousins and grandparents are almost considered part of the nuclear family, so it struck me in addition to the muslim ban, a deeper long range thing happened this week, laying the groundwork with the united states government saying what is considered family in much of the non-white world is not going to
be considered admissible to the united states perhaps over a much longer period of time. >> and we just put that, this is cut back up element nine allowed is parents, stepparents, spouse, fiance, child, son or daughter-in-law, parent-in-law, sibling and half sibling and step siblings can get in. not allowed grandparent, grandchild, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew, cousin, brother or sister-in-law, or any extended family member. basically most of the people my mother brought here from guyana. also part of this tweet storm there is the map. can you explain what we're seeing in the map? >> the dark parts of that map are where the divorce rate is high and that has a lot to do with just economic development, and so places where there are more likely to be stepparents and step siblings and half siblings and those things are the places that are dark and that's now going to be the
definition of family by the united states government and those are mostly white countries. and the places where all the disallowed relations that you just listed are deeply important and embedded in people's lives in india, where my family comes from, and so many other places are the mostly non-white countries. and so it just seems like in 1965, this country got over and repealed it and kind of created a new law that favored, that had favored only white immigrants, and got over that, that's why my family is here and many others are here, because we stopped favoring white immigrants. this seems like a back door over the long run to tilt immigration back in the direction of europe, australia, russia, a few places like that. >> joan, you've written about history, the history of the shift among a lot of white working class americans from being new deal pro-big government essentially liberals to being very, very conservative by the time of ronald reagan. how much of it is this sense when they look at the world and
the united states they see that browning of the country as somehow a threat to them? >> well i think it's inescapable that's part of it. the really good research that's taken place since the election shows that fear of a changing america is the number one factor that you can see drive really the divides, a white trump voter from a white non-trump voter, that it's fears of brown people, fears of losing the majority, but you know what's also sad to me is that this cohort, i wrote about my irish catholic working class family, this cohort used to be so patriotic, and so much america, love it or leave it, things that i didn't like about it, but that was just so stirred by this country's, what they perceived as its values and much of the same cohort is with donald trump dismissing the russia allegations, doing nothing to support the people who are trying to get answers, and i find this kind of
relative, this relativity about well, you know, if my guy doesn't think it's important or if my guy might even be threatened by it, then i don't care either. that is not patriotism. that is something else entirely. >> and you know, rob, you at the same time have this upside down talking about patriotism as a time when you're think being it, irish immigrants are very proud of the fact that when the great potato famine happened in ireland in the mid 19th century and i recally 20th century, people came here, and they weren't wanted originally, jewish immigrants originally weren't wanted. the only people who weren't wanted, were my people who didn't want to be here, come here. now you have tucker carlsson from fox news tweeting "why does america benefit from having tons of people from failing countries come here?" when you hear that, i don't know what to make of it? what do you make of it? >> it goes against everything that this country is based on, which is you know, a freedom and a welcoming of ideas of
non-repression, so that we can all come and think the way we want to think, pray the way we want to pray and live the way we want to live. somebody tweeted back i remember with the tucker carlsson thing, you know, too bad a guy from syria came and otherwise ul you'd have steve jobs. we've all come from other countries except for the native americans, who we took the country from, and we're all contributing to making the world great. and this is a great experiment, this wonderful experiment of democracy, and if we can prove that all of these varied colors and ideas and religions can all live together, what a great message to send to the world, that we are, in fact, all one, and that's what we hopefully can espouse as americans.
>> america is an amalgom for people who go to a place they've never been and survive the trip. thank you very much. up next, another blockbuster report broke overnight about possible collusion between the trump campaign and russia. stay with us. (vo) a lifetime of your dog's nutritional needs... all in one. purina one. healthy energy, all in one. strong muscles, all in one. highly digestible, and a taste he loves, all in one. purina one smartblend is expertly blended... with 100% nutrition, 0% fillers, always real meat #1. lifelong smart nutrition. it's all in one. purina one.
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war with them. now what appears to be happening is that they are running an operation to select or influence their preferred candidate to get into the white house. we are in danger. our national intelligence and national security and the american direct, sorry, democratic establishment of choosing a presidency is under attack right now, and we really need to take this seriously. >> in case you missed the date on that clip, that was malcolm nance on this show almost exactly one year ago, predicting the russiagate crisis that has engulfed the trump administration. in the year since, malcolm made those remarks, evidence has mounted russia meddled in our election to help get trump elected. whether the republican presidential campaign cooperated in that attack is a matter of ongoing investigation, in this week the "wall street journal" reported the strongest evidence yet of possible collusion. detailing how a gop operative, the now deceased peter w. smith
launched a quest to obtain emails he believed were stolen from hillary clinton's private server while implying he was connected to michael flynn. another "wall street journal" story that broke overnight revealed that smith also listed other senior members of trump's campaign in a recruitment document including steve ban none, kellyanne conway, and sam clovis. senior adviser at the agriculture department now. "the journal" says there's no evidence smith sought information from the campaign officials. author of "the plot to hack america" navid jamali former fbi double agent and author of "how to catch a russian spy" and former white house senior director, nayhira we have to get you a book. malcolm i'll let you say i told you so. i feel we've had the same conversation every week for a
year. if it was so evident to you as a national security professional that we were, that russiania was attempting to intervene in our election in order to steal it, in order to steal it for one candidate, why was it not evidence enough to our national security structure for them to stop that from happening? >> well, i think it was evident to the professionals inside the national security infrastructure at that time. the u.s. intelligence community was as we now know was hair on fire, and the reason that i made that statement, you might recall, we were at independence hall, was the previous week, all of these little indicators were coming up and bubbling up through the community that were showing that not only was russia doing something but they were handing it off to wikileaks, and you know, a few days earlier wikileaks said that they had all of the dnc documents, but we had been tracking the russians handling of those documents for almost two months so it became very clear that there was this handoff from one agency to the next, but john brennan was going around at that exact time
telling everyone within government over that period and next eight weeks that the united states was under attack, precisely as i said it. so you know, it's not, you know, prophesizing the future. it's just sheer professional intelligence analysis as carried out by the professionals, but the consumers refuse to believe it. >> that's the important point the consumers particularly in the trump campaign. navid the interesting thing that happened, we had this discussion and going back to you and i, this is the conversation we keep on having, which is at what point does the trump campaign become aware and knowledgeable of what russia is doing or convinced it's happening and what do they do about it? do they believe it? do they believe it and try to take advantage of it? these two stories in the "wall street journal" and another piece by matt tate, first the "wall street journal" story "investigators have examined reports from intelligence agencies that describe russian hackers discussing how to obtain emails from mrs. clinton's server, and then transmit them
to mr. flynn via an intermediary." this is clip one from my producers, matt tate, who is one of the unnamed sources in that story outs himself and says i am one of the sources in this story and he says this gentleman, mr. smith, who is now dead, had not contacted him and he was studying the email hack itself for what security breaches happened and what the email hack itself of the dnc meant from an objective point of view, no the partisan. he said smith had not contacted me about the dnc hack but rather about his constriction that clinton's private email server had been hacked in his view almost certainly both by the russian government and likely by multiple other hackers, too, and his desire to ensure that the fruits of those hacks were exposed prior to the election. he mentioned that he had been contacted by someone in the "dark web" who claimed to have a copy of emails from secretary clinton's private server and he wanted me to help validate whether or not the emails were
genuine." you have a theory what all of this means. tell us what that is, navid. >> i don't dispute the fact pat certain. i had the opportunity to speak a little bit with matt last night. i think it's an interesting revelation and perhaps adds context to this. look, i think that if the russians did in fact have hillary clinton's emails, they probably would have released them using wikileaks. it seems like they had the perfect mechanism to do that, so there's another thing here. if we think about what did russia want to do? they wanted to destabilize the united states. they want to delegitimize our election system and harm hillary clinton who they believed was going to be the president. so i think the alternative here is perhaps this may have been a very clever dangle operation. dapg dangle to evoke imagery of a bright lit lure in a dark ocean and to see what fishies come swimming up. you put out there we have these 30,000 missing emails. see who comes out here and
listen, any republican operative who wants to get trump into the white house is going to come looking and what do they get? peter smith. now perhaps once he saw this, he brings it back to this whether it's kellyanne conway or michael flynn, any other name droppers that were in the subsequent report. that gets to them and maybe that gets to the president, and the president then comes out on national tv and says russia if you're listening, release these emails. the thing about that, joy, that's so unbelievably damaging and so frightening is it shows you both, a, how good the russians are at manipulating people, and b, it shows you how susceptible the man in the white house is to that manipulation. >> i hear the sort of key to all of this is the conspiratorial mind-set of both donald trump and michael flynn. these are people who already had a mind-set that hillary clinton was just an uncaught criminal, and that whatever the russians got from the dnc somewhere in there was the criminal intent of hillary clinton hiding in it, and that if you could just get her 33,000 specifically emails,
then you would catch her. that would be the smoking gun, so if the russians got the dnc, if they got podesta, surely they must have hillary's too. first to july 18th, this is the first day of the republican national convention, and this is michael flynn on stage talking about hillary clinton. >> we do not need a reckless president who believes she is above the law. [ chants "lock her up" ]. >> lock her up, that's right. yes, that's right. lock her up. i'm going to tell you, she, she put our nation's security at extremely high risk with her careless use of a private email server. >> okay.
and now we go one, we fast forward one week later, and this is on july 26th, one week later, this is the same weekend that malcolm and i had this conversation, and so this is donald trump and now the democratic national convention i believe has already started and donald trump has a specific thing, says to russia, take a listen. >> russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. i think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. >> and not to get too conspiratorial he did that news conference in miami, the same place that this mr. smith was in florida. your thoughts? >> this is what winning at all costs looks like and it's about winning in a personal capacity. it's not about winning for the united states of america, and this is the problem when national security is set aside for the advantage of a particular individual who wants to win public office. this is a fundamental divide that we are seeing not just last
year, during the election season, but that russia has been trying to manipulate, and take advantage of with the trump family for almost a decade, ever since the collapse of the soviet union, the sell-off of russian assets, businesspeople around the world have seen this as an opportunity for them to make money and trump is essentially like a russian oligarch. this is why you see lots of images of the trump family in russia, building business interest, developing these networks and connections with putin and his team, and unfortunately, with the election of the united states, they had to pay back, and that's what putin and russia have been playing on this trump family personal interest in business, economics for their personal gain, and not for the national security of the united states. >> and i'm going to give you the last word on this, malcolm, because you did predict it, so i'll give you the last word on it, matt tate said when he tried explain to peter w. smith that if he had received this, if he had been contacted by the dark
web with clinton's personal emails he should take it very seriously that possibly it may have been part of a wider russian campaign against the united states. smith however didn't seem to care. if they were genuine, they would hurt clinton's chances and therefore help trump. did he become an unwitting asset in your voodoo to his zeal to try to beat hillary clinton? >> absolutely he's an unwitting asset, and as you recall in my book, i wrote about all these people were unwitting assets. you know, the russians use two methodologist like naveed said, the dangle, they put something before your eyes and also go direct at the same time. michael flynn may have been the subject of a direct approach. hey, go after hillary clinton. but can i just say one last thing? i know precisely when it information was injected into the bloodstream of american politics. early 2016, there was a news report from russia that was put out through sputnik and another smaller agency which was picked up by a right wing blogger and that story that putin was having a debate within the halls of the
kremlin about releasing hillary clinton's 33,000 emails got repeated by judge napolitano on fox news in april, and it disappeared, but didn't come back up until trump's statement in july. it was festering during all that time, and these people didn't care, but they knew, they had to have known that information would be coming from the russians, and that informed trump and all the people who had conversations with them to make that statement about russia, if you're listening, release hillary clinton's emails. they don't care. win at all cost. >> it makes so much more sense with this piece of the puzzle that you don't have to believe that donald trump and his team knew that the russians were going into the dnc. they don't even have to be involved at that point. they just have to believe in their mind that they also got her emails. they're conspiracy theorists. they want the emails because they think that's how they're going to beat her.
makes more sense. malcolm and naveed, tell me the winning lottos when you got off the air since you do great predictions, and we're getting you a book. coming up, trump's attack on my msnbc colleagues, could put him in even more legal trouble. that's next. go, go! [ rock music playing ] have fun with your replaced windows. run away! [ grunts ] leave him! leave him! [ music continues ]
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then he will pick up the phone and basically spike the story. >> screw it, let him run it. go ahead and run it. we're not coddling. >> they ended up running something -- >> my colleagues at "morning joe" told a harrowing story about the president on friday, part of their response to trump's rude tweets about them earlier, a day earlier. well, trump took to twitter again after that, of course, to say this. "watched low rating "morning joe" for the first time in a long him. fame news. he called me to stop national enquire irarticle, i said no." the "enquirer" promoted that article on friday, the tabloid replaced it with this statement "at no time did we threaten either mow or mika or their children in connection with our reporting on the story. we have no knowledge of any discussions between the white house and joe and mika about our
story. joining us is gabe sherman, ta mara holder and david korn of "mother jones." i want to play the sound bite what the national enquire irwas responding to. this is mika telling the more harrowing part of that story. >> and let me explain what they were threatening. they were calling my children. they were calling close friends -- >> the nation"the national enq." >> and pinning the story on my ex-husband, who would absolutely never do that, so i knew immediately it was a lie, and that they had nothing, and these calls persisted for quite some time. >> so i just want to be very clear here. "the national enquirer" is harassing your children. >> right. >> your daughters who are teenagers. >> yes. >> and the story goes on essentially someone in the white house is telling joe scarborough and mika brzezinski, if you want this to stop, apologize, beg for forgiveness and change the way
you cover donald trump. >> i reported this out yesterday and what i learned was that go-between the white house official that was unnamed on air was trump's son-in-law, jared kushner, and joe scarborough reached out to jared, my knowledge of these conversations and said listen this has got to stop and jared said to the effect if you want this to stop you got to call the president and apologize, and this is a case it might seem like inside baseball media gossip. this is actually a really important story. it goes to something you talked about in the last block the win at all costs mentality, the way donald trump about we to upweap the media in exchange for coverage. this goes to the core of what freedom of the press in this country is about. >> david korn is for the way jared kushner operates let alone donald trump? >> let's also remember yesterday joe said three white house, top white house guys who made repeated calls to him. the story doesn't end, if joe is accurate, at jared kushner and a lot of the stories out there
about jared kushner today are like oh he was trying to do joe a favor, because they're such good friends. so there's a big gap between what the kushner white house annan muss sources are saying and what joe fold us. none of this is par for the course. as i wrote yesterday, joe, if joe's account is accurate, then you might actually have white house officials breaking the law, the law of new york state against extortion and coercion. i've talked to several criminal defense attorneys me and my colleague dan friedman yesterday who said this could be a good case of extortion. so none of this is par for the course. it does reveal a lot about how the white house works and how the tweets themselves reveal donald trump's mind seems to function essentially when it comes to blood and women, but it's all, i mean i really do believe this is a serious matter, and that congress ought to look into this.
>> ta mara, even for something as petty as demanding a morning show not make fun of your fake "time" magazine cover, demanding you be nice to him is really at the core what have he wants. mika and joe wrote a "washington post" op-ed, he's probably mentally unfit to watch their program because he can't handle it. they said we can only hope the women who are closest to him about follow their examples, examples of people who criticize him. it would be the height of hypocrisy to claim the mantle of women's empowerment while allowing a family member to continue such abuse of conduct. i want to play how the women around donald trump have responded to what he did. here they are. >> i think the american people elected somebody who is tough, who is smart and a fighter. he fights fire with fire. >> do you endorse the president? >> i endorse the president's
right to fight back when is he being merslecilusly attacked. >> as the firt lady stated publicly when her husband gets attacked, he will punch back ten times harder. >> kellyanne we wouldn't be talking to you this morning. the president didn't send out tweets yesterday. >> what do you make of the full scale defense, elaine chao, wife of the majority leader also defended him. what do you make in the women in trump's life's response? >> i think the women in donald trump's life probably have smaller minds than his small hands because if they had any decency as women -- joy, you have a father. if your father ever said anything like this about another woman, you would probably grab him by the back of the neck, just like i would to my dad and say, what are you doing? apologize. he has continued to surround himself, donald trump, with very, very weak-minded women who
are afraid of him. we are seeing donald trump explode from very, very far away. imagine the fear that these women have when they're up close and personal with him. you can't fight fire with fire if you're standing right next to it. it's going to explode and you're going to blow up. so this is why he has surrounded himself with women who can't do anything other than defend him. kind of defend him or just not say anything. i want to go to one other thing as well. this isn't just donald trump's attack on the media. this is donald trump now using coconspirators, that is the nation"national enquirer" that hopefully doesn't buy the "time" magazine, coconspirators to carry out his crimes, blackmail and extortion and what gabe and david just talked about. >> and gabe, the interesting thing about it, too, it reminds me roger ailes story, the sort of relationship for a long time a lot of women didn't say anything about his abusive
behavior. donald trump has a history of using the tabloids to attack his enemy, whether it was calling allegedly his pregnant wife melania at the time a blimp and a monster for gaining weight during his pregnancy, after the "access hollywood" tape planting a story about ted cruz in "the national enquirer" essentially alleging that he was cheating on his wife with multiple women, some of whom worked for donald trump. >> yes. >> just goes on and on, even planting allegedly a story about salma hayet because she wouldn't date him. >> donald trump used "the national enquirer" as an outlet to done research on his rivals like ben carson and ted cruz. we don't know if he was using "the enquirer" personally to go after joe and mika. the owner david pecker is a close personal friend so if he was going after trump creditic trump has that relationship there. this say case donald trump's alliance with the tabloids using
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cohn and h.r. mcmaster, a definitive answer from you whether the president will bring up the fact moscow meddled in the election, is the president going to press putin on that? >> obviously i'm not going to get ahead of the president's conversation as we typically do i would imagine we'll have a readout after that conversation takes place. >> well, you know, we don't always have readouts. so, will the two presidents formally converse or ignore the humongous russia elephant in the room. for now we can only speculate. and back with me to do that malcolm nance and javid. malcolm, written national security council staff have been tasked with proposing deliverables -- in the 2016 election. former administration official said it's not clear what putin would be asked to give in return. your thoughts. >> well, putin doesn't have to
give anything because he's already given him an election. let me tell you something -- you know donald trump watches this program. we all know that now. so i'm going to say something directly to donald trump. do not cross, you know, the good faith of the people of the united states. if you propose to raise sanctions and you come out of there like you two guys are best friends, we know when a gambling addict meets his bookie that he's going to be very cordial to him. so i expect there won't be any elbowing people out of the way to get in front of the camera, but there may be to get right next to vladimir putin and start looking like his bff. >> yeah. and you're fond of saying in order to understand russia you have to try to think like russia, think the way they think, not the way we think about it. what would russia possibly want out of this meeting other than to essentially have the sanctions undone? which it looks like trump wants to do. >> they're loving this. i mean, this is -- the u.s. is
in chaos, we're essentially in a freefall. we look like the world's biggest dysfunctional family to the rest of the world. so if i was putin, and remember putin was a mid-level kgb officer and he thinks like a mid-level kgb officer. i think he's very good at manipulation, he's very good at sort of working people. i think all he needs to say to donald trump is, mr. president, you're right, they're against you. and that's all he needs to do to keep this chaos flowing. that's all he has to say. he's so susceptible to this stuff. >> malcolm, how much of a bounty would a foreign leader be when you were still in the intelligence collection business would it be to have a foreign leader who tweets his every thought all day long and is so open with his emotions? donald trump was rage tweeting about half a dozen of them this morning. >> well, you know, it's not so much about getting the mindset of that foreign leader. it's how your nation and your nation's state and its intelligence agencies can manipulate that foreign leader because he's an open book. everyone knows that donald trump always eventually comes out and
confesses to whatever it is that he's done except for those exceptional things that he wants to hide. and you can play him. it's not, you know, the u.s. congress he has to worry about. it's kim jong-un, it's vladimir putin. vladimir putin has this man on puppet strings, let's be honest. and we all know when this thing, if it doesn't come off as grim faced, not shaking hands, anything shy of that, then everyone in the world is going to assume donald trump is in debt to vladimir putin and vladimir putin is going to play to donald trump's weaknesses, absolutely. and he's going to come away from this meeting even if it's just a hand sh handshake and grin to saying to trump let's do something economic, let's get you on that growth track. russia has a lot of oligarch money. >> what does putin have on trump, that's sort of a rhetorical question they assume
something. is there any way of knowing if he already has something or it is just the knowledge that trump is susceptible to his wiles? >> i think it's that, but certainly does trump believe putin has anything on him? he may not even have it. that fear may be enough to sort of, look, you look for control, you look for leverage. and just the fear that trump may have that not knowing what the russians may have may be enough. look, if you believe flynn was recruited by the russians, i happen to feel there's a strong possibility of that, one could say that the russians were able to turn him by just putting at a table sitting next to vladimir putin. my goodness, if you let vladimir putin speak to trump, what kpegss, what control could he exert? what we can say about vladimir putin is he's a master at manipulation. >> absolutely. i want to shift quick di lsh no, go ahead, malcolm. >> one quick comment. you know, the state department was tasked to give up a list of deliverables. deliverables are a component of a contract, okay.
that means that you feel that you have to draft up things which russia would want and needs. so, you know, that term itself is almost indicative. if i were to see this activity in another foreign country and i had to write up an analysis on it, i would say these people are already beholden to that entity and they're giving them something tangible. >> and naveed, what then do the members of the group of seven do? donald trump's shown no respect to leaders of -- he's ridden in golf carts while they were walking, what should they do? how should they respond to donald trump at this point? >> that's a good question. if we look at what donald trump's actually been able to accomplish since he's become president, there's not much there. so how much power he really has back here i think they understand that so they know and have some confidence. he's not going to be able to push too much through here. >> yeah, that his incompetence is going to be their shield.
fascinating. malcolm and naveed, come back soon, as in next week. thank you guys very much. and up next, the senate has gone home and obamacare's still the law of the land. more "am joy" after the break. so when i need to book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. booking.com gets it. and with their price match, i know i'm getting the best price every time. now i can start relaxing even before the vacation begins. your summer vacation is very important. that's why booking.com has great offers up to 40% off now through july 4th. find great deals now at booking.com. booking.yeah!
see ya later, moe. (vo) introducing the subaru impreza. the longest-lasting vehicle in its class. more than a car, it's a subaru. if there isn't a combined repeal and replace plan, i'm writing a letter to the president this morning urging him to call on us to separate them. every republican in the u.s. senate except for one has already voted for repeal in the past. let's do that first. if we can't do them together, let's do as much repeal as we can and then let's have the president ask us to cancel our august work period and stay here and work on replace separate. >> just minutes after republican senator ben sasse proposed repeal and delay, fox & friends number one fan tweeted his endorsement. quote, if republican senators are unable to pass what they are working on now, they should immediately repeal and then replace at a later date. a few things about that.
republicans, one, will likely need 60 votes to wholesale repeal the aca. that's ten more votes than the 50 votes they haven't been able to get for their proposed bill. two, just repealing the aca would leave 33 million more people uninsured than under the current law. that's even worse than the senate version of trump care, which would leave 22 million more uninsured. three, repealing obamacare without having a replacement ready would likely further destabilize the insurance markets and lead to even more insurers pulling out of the exchanges. and four, who actually believes republicans would ever get around to the replace part? joining me now republican strategist christopher metzler, jonathan of "the huffington post," tommy, i'm going to start with you and dispense with this idea of repealing altogether obamacare. because that would send the entire market into chaos, right? >> i don't think so.
i think the markets would respond the way we expect a free market to respond. we know that free markets bring competition between firms when they're competing for your business, they're going to offer a better product at a lower price. part of the reasons premiums have gone up so high is because of obamacare. i expect premiums to get a lot cheaper if obamacare were to be repealed. i think what we're seeing from the president with that tweet, with his statement that if repeal and replace doesn't happen, he's still committed to keeping his campaign promise. president trump is absolutely committed to keeping that promise and all of his campaign promises. but, no, i don't think that we should expect the insurance markets to collapse. >> really? >> if republicans do what they say they're going to do. >> if it was a robust market to insure the people who were added to the insurance roles under the medicaid expansion, these are basically the working poor, if there was such a robust market to offer them insurance, why wasn't it there before obamacare? >> well, if we're speaking about those people on medicaid -- >> we are.
>> the cbo assumes some would leave medicaid, but medicaid is free. >> what? >> they're required to be on it under obamacare. and the cbo assumes some of them would leave despite -- >> not leave, no, no, i'm sorry, they would not leave. this is not people voluntarily saying, you know, i choose to go uninsured. it's people losing their health insurance essentially not having health insurance anymore. i want to get into -- >> under the senate bill nobody. >> on the senate bill they would lose -- 22 million people would lose their health insurance. the bulk would be because of cuts to medicaid. i want to go specifically into it because i want to make sure people really understand it because there are two different buckets of insured. there are about 10 million people who buy in the non-group market. that's who you and the republicans are legislating for, just them. the 10 million people who buy insurance under obamacare. so if we talk about those people, the new bill that they are -- the republicans are proposing, would essentially force -- this is a great piece that the nbc news did a great analysis of this and it essentially said the bill would require people to pay higher premiums -- this is the
non-group people, to buy a private plan that's similar to what's already under obamacare. so they'd have to pay higher premiums to get what they get under obamacare now. and then it would reduce spending on the subsidies and distribute them in a way that encourages people to instead purchase high deductible plan with lower premiums. people with lower premiums are just stuck with a high deductible plan. you think that's better? >> no, not in that specific case. >> that is for the non-group market. that's what would happen. >> well, the cbo said late this week that this bill would actually drive the cost of premiums down by about 30%. >> for people who are getting -- right, they would drive the cost of premiums down for people who were then pushed into high deductible plans. you pay a lower premium, but when it comes time to use your insurance, you're paying a much higher deductible. that's exactly what the cbo said. >> what those people will have under the senate bill is more choice. we know when they have more choices they're going to exercise that choice. >> that's a great bumper sticker. because remember we're still only talking about non-group market -- >> that's not true. >> hold on.
you're basically saying if people can buy more junk insurance, insurance that really doesn't cover much -- >> insurance that covers the things they want. >> basic things and most people like the services that they're getting under obamacare, the free mammograms, et cetera -- hold on a second. >> i think they would like to pick not have the government pick for them. >> you keep saying people would voluntarily disenroll from insurance. would you voluntarily disenroll from insurance? >> i didn't say thachlt the cbo said that. >> no, the cbo said they would lose insurance. said very specifically they would lose insurance. >> a few million would voluntarily leave. >> and the only people who would voluntarily dis-enroll and the only people who actually again get lower premiums are people who don't want to pay the penalty under obamacare and therefore disenroll because they don't want to buy insurance. that's a tiny fraction of the american people. of that 10 million you're talking about maybe a couple of million people. and it also says at the same time when you take away the subsidies from people, low income seniors would be hurt the
most. hold on. the biggest spikes in uninsurance, and i'm just saying what the cbo said, the biggest spikes in uninsurance come from older low income customers who would also have the hardest time finding affordable insurance. what do you think? >> look, if we're talking about the cbo, let's just think about how they did predicting -- >> no, no, answer my question. we don't have time to talk about the cbo methods. do you think it's a valuable trade-off to have lower income people, the oldest and lowest income people have the hardest time finding insurance and be the most likely biggest spikes in losing insurance. do you think that's a fair trade-off? >> i don't think that's what will happen. >> that's what the cbo says will happen. >> i don't believe them. >> why shouldn't they? because they were spot-on in the number of people who would get insurance. they had a different mix -- >> no, they weren't spot-on. they were incredibly wrong about how much it would cost and who would be insured. >> they were not. health costs have gone down and number of people overall have gotten insurance correct. the mix of people who got it in the non-group market versus 72
million on the medicaid, the mix is what they got wrong. i want to get jonathan in here because the thing we know about this idea that is floating through the senate, this is aside from them saying we'll repeal the whole thing is there's a one for one trade-off taking place here. approximately $700 million in tax cuts that go overwhelmingly to not just the top 1% but the top 0.1%, so $700 billion in tax cuts for them. for $700 billion in cuts to medicaid. and that is the equivalent, essentially, of having the top 400 richest households in america, okay, the top 400 richest people in america, their tax cut is the equivalent to medicaid for arkansas, alaska, west virginia and nevada combined. is that a fair trade-off in any way in your mind, mr. cohen? >> look, whether it's a fair trade-off, that's a value judgment, right?
some people would say it's fair, some people would say it's not. but i think that's exactly the right way to think about this. and, you know, we talk about health care, there's so many moving pieces. you were just talking with your guests about the mandate and the effects of the subsidies and there's some dispute over where, you know, how this piece affects that piece and how many people are voluntarily dropping coverage or whatever. but the key thing to remember to pan out just like you did to say, look, this is taking $1 trillion away from programs that help people pay their medical bills. it's coming out of medicaid. it's coming out of subsidies to help people buy private insurance. if you take that much money out of federal health care programs, $1 trillion over ten years, one way or another you are telling millions of people they are not going to be able to pay their medical bills. it's just a reality. that is what we are looking at with this bill. and that is why this bill is so hard to pass because every time you look at it they tinker with the pieces, they move a little money here, they move a little money there, but at the end of the day there are millions of people who won't have health
insurance, there are millions oof people who will have health insurance but will have even higher deductibles than today. obamacare's not perfect. everybody admits that. it needs improvement in a lot of areas. but relative to what we have today, pass the senate bill, pass the house bill, you will have substantially more americans in the millions who will be struggling relative to today. >> mr. binion. >> it's faulty logic to say every dollar the federal government spends on health insurance is the only dollar that could help people. we know from 200 years of american history that the free market and free enterprise delivers the best products. why would we take that out of the health care market? >> you're giving us theoreticals when we're telling you if you take the absolute dollars that you spend to cover people with medicaid, to give people insurance cards and you reduce that by $1 trillion, that if -- i mean absolute dollars, that means fewer people can be helped by the program. if you repeal the medicaid
expansion everyone who was added to medicaid because of the expansion comes off medicaid because the expansion isn't there. the theoreticals about the free market don't give people health care. i want to come to -- it doesn't give people health care for you to talk about the free market. talk about the free market makes you feel good. doesn't give people a medical card. >> the government won't solve all of our problems. >> why weren't those people insured -- why weren't those people insured under the free market before obamacare? >> more people will be insured if health insurance -- >> why weren't those people insured under the free market system we had before obamacare? >> many of them could have been and chose not to. they weren't insured until the government forced them to be. >> you're saying people wouldn't have wanted the medicaid expansion -- they wouldn't have taken medicaid and have an insurance card to go to the doctor if they -- it ends the expansion. >> no, it doesn't. no it does not. >> okay. that's actually not true. let's come to chris metzler.
i love talking about ali vel shi was here. he pointed out this week which i think was so important and fundamental to this debate we're having politically is that when we talk about health care, we tend to lump everything in together. there really are two health care markets. there's the nongroup -- the three, the non-group market. people who buy their own insurance, small business people, people who and a lot of times i've met don't like obamacare because for them some of their costs have gone up. in some regions, we have a map shows in awe if regions in 38 counties there's only one insurer. so in some cases non-group people have suffered. that's about 10 million people. then you've got the bulk of americans who get their insurance the way i do, through your employer. >> yeah. >> and they only benefitted from obamacare through important things like free mammograms, services they were able to get, keeping your kids on which my kids are still on my insurance. and then you've got this third group of about 72 million people who are on medicaid. they are sort of the big elephant in the room because if you hurt them, it's such a much
bigger market. why don't republicans ever legislate for that group? why does that group always getting punitive measures and that 10 million always getting catered to? >> well, i think your analysis is absolutely right. if you're talking about i'm the ceo of a health care firm. and so for the senate bill just simply does not address those issues. i'm a free market guy. i believe in free markets. however, the discussion at this point is in fact very theoretical. when i see people walking into my urgent care who cannot afford insurance, that's the concern. as a small business we are also looking at reimbursements. the reimbursements simply are not high enough. >> for medicaid. >> for medicaid. they're not high enough. so i think if part of the reason this bill has not passed, this bill is not ready to go anywhere. >> yeah. >> at this point.
>> so you are because you are a republican. >> yes. >> a small business owner and a free marketer, free marketeer. tell mr. binion because he has a theoretical idea if you undid obamacare and you're living it in the real world running a health care company. in your world if you repealed obamacare in total what would happen? >> if you repealed obamacare in total, essentially what will happen, remember the auto bailouts, remember all of those kinds of things? >> yeah. >> if you take it just completely off the table, then we're going to end up having to bail out hospitals, emergency rooms, because that's where people are going to end up. >> right. >> and so that's a part of the discussion. the debate within republican circles is you have the folks who are essentially saying you haven't gone far enough with this bill. >> right. >> then you also have some conversation around, well, you know, we need to work together to get this done.
so from my perspective, if in fact you were simply to take it off the table, you're going to have a lot of people. and from a straight political standpoint a lot of those people are going to be the president's supporters, the president's base. >> yeah. >> that's what's going to happen. i live this every day. so i can't have a theoretical conversation about this because i live this every day. >> mr. binion. >> every american lives this every day. and what their personal experience with obamacare has been is that the cost of their health insurance premiums have gone up. >> you cannot speak for every american when you say that. that's a blanket statement about the people that you know and you talk to. i just have somebody sitting here at the table who's in the health care business. don't speak for all americans about what's happened. there are -- there's data that shows what's happened to costs. >> they've gone up. >> insurance always goes up. insurance premiums always go up. hello, it's what they do every year. jonathan, i'll give you the last word. have you ever known a year in
american history in your adult life when insurance premiums on an annual basis have gone down? >> no, look, there are winners -- >> the cbo says this bill -- maybe next year. >> no. for people that buy high deductible plans, the small tiny slice of the public who you only see. you don't see everybody else. the rest of the people arin visible to you because you're thinking of the wealthy affluent business owner who doesn't want to buy insurance for their employees. and maybe they hate obamacare, but what about everyone else? i'm sorry, trying to give jonathan the last word. i'm going to do that. go ahead. >> i was going to say there are winners and losers in all of these policies. there are certainly people under obamacare paying more, there are a lot of people paying less. and the key is what you said if you go to the senate bill, look what happens, the true premiums eventually come down but that is because the insurance covers less. if i told you i was going to trade your cadillac in for a bicycle, you'd save money by, you know, paying for the bicycle, but that doesn't mean you've gotten a better product for going around. >> i have gone way over time, so i'm going to stop.
christopher will be back, john than and tommy, thank you for the spirited debate. appreciate it. >> thanks a lot. >> coming up, trump's personal attorney might need some legal help of his own. that's next. ♪ at johnson's we care about safety as much as you do. that's why we meet or exceed 15 global regulations for baby products. and where standards differ, we always go with the toughest. johnson's. i wanted to know where i did my ancestrydna. the most shocking result was that i'm 26% native american. i had no idea. it's opened up a whole new world for me. ♪
with speeds of 250 megabits per second across our entire network, to more companies, in more locations, than centurylink. we do business where you do business. ♪ ♪ he takes the action that they also by the way recommended and now he's being investigated by the department of justice because the special counsel under the special counsel regulations reports still to the department of justice, not an independent counsel. so he's being investigated for taking the action that the attorney general and deputy attorney general recommended him to take by the agency who recommended the termination. so that's the constitutional threshold question here. that's why as i said no investigation -- >> what's the question?
i mean, you stated some facts. first of all, you've now said he is being investigated after saying that you didn't -- >> no. >> you just said -- >> no, he's not being investigated. >> you just said he's being investigated. >> exchanges like that one on sunday morning talk shows have transformed donald trump's personal attorney from fox news fixture to bona fide star in the reality show that is the trump presidency. over the years he built a media empire that fights for executive causes, but according to "the guardian" businesses are bankrolled in part by case, and its affiliate, the american center for law and justice, which dolled out more than $60 million to seculo, members of his family and their businesses. both groups are now under scrutiny by the attorneys general of north carolina and new york. msnbc reached out for comment but we did not hear back. but a spokesman for sekulow told "the guardian" financial
arrangements between aclj, case and independent compensation -- joining me writer at large for esquire magazine and author of "why i'm an atheist who believes in god." charlie, i'm going to start with you. there were some instructions found for telemarketers, supposed to sound like the aclu, i think it's meant to, and what they would say to them if people didn't have the money. let me see if i can find one here. this is actually -- let's do some of the pitches. five, this is cut five. islamic extremists are headed in your direction and you are most likely the main target, sekulow told people used in a message for fund raising calls, telemarketers were instructed to tell people who said they could
not donate that islamic extremists will succeed if we don't do something right away. if a person persisted the second time, it sounds like you really want to help, what do you make of this tactic? >> first of all, joy, you're very good at that. you could have a second career reading those. >> will you send me money? >> who knows? look, from selling indulgences and saints heads to jim baker and the 700 club to ralph reid's weird connections -- christianity has always been a fine environment for eager entrepreneurs. but this bunch, i mean, that's a lot of dough they're talking about. >> yeah. >> and they seem to be pitching themselves at the elderly and the terrified, or the terrified elderly. and that i find not exactly consummate with the gospel. >> not quite what jesus preached. >> no. >> frank shafr, you come from this world and i'm wondering why this is so effective. you think about the fact these are people making exorbitant
sums of money, cfo of case, $2.6 million for him, adam, his nephew $518,000. logan sekulow, his son, $471,000, his other son, jordan, $137,000 according to "the washington post." and just overall out of $229 million raised by these organizations between 2011 to 2015 $5.5 million going to members of the family, $23 million to their firms. why do people in the christian community not see this, notice this and why are they not offended by it? >> well, joy, it's part of the fallout of the culture wars. and they have decided that everyone is the enemy. it's the same with donald trump when he talks about any story that is against him is fake news. they assume when they hear things like this somehow this is the liberal media again saying things that are not true. they have built a system around themselves to guarantee only
seeing one point of view. you have to understand my father francis schafer was one of the founders of the religious right. and i met with the founder when jay sekulow was just a kid hanging around, recently converted and saw an opportunity to join this band of drifters, these folks essentially con artists and amazes me all some 30 years later now that i've long been out of the movement as you know to see how these kind of people find each other. i mean, look, go figure pat robertson's sidekick who started a bunch of legal foundations to essentially con evangelicals into sending money so he could save america from liberals now is the defense counsel for this con artist president who either is selling you bad steaks or a non-university university, it's just stunning how these guys belong together. it would all be sort of a sick joke on evangelical christians and the 81% of white evangelicals who voted for trump except for one thing, it shows such bad judgment on the part of
this idiot president of ours that once again you really have to say do you know who you just hired? was it someone you saw on fox for two minutes and liked because he was kissing up to you? or do you know that he is just another ralph reed con man donald trump type himself? he's like you, donald. he's as much of a con man as you. get yourself a real lawyer. >> it's interesting because there are a lot of similarities. i mean, you had donald trump, the brilliant work in "the washington post" of david farenhold uncovering some of the scamming nature of some trump charities, and "los angeles times" article in 2005 revealed in 2001 one of sekulow's nonprofit organizations paid $2.3 million plus to purchase two homes used primarily by he and his wife, also subsidized a third home that he uses in north carolina. and meanwhile they were telling people, the telemarketers were telling people that sekulow
actually works for people for free, the american center for law and justice is basically the anti-aclu. our best shot at protecting our religious freedom in the nation today is one of the call sheets they paid $21 million to nonprofit legal firms owned by jay sekulow. your witness, charlie pierce. >> oh, well, as i said, you know, i think what american television christianity needs is a reformation. it needs some stick swinging profits to go in there and explain to these people that you have moved far beyond your original mission. if you want to sell aluminum siding to people, go sell aluminum siding to people, but don't sell the gospel like it's swampland in florida. >> yeah. and i mean, frank, you've also seen jay sekulow and others delve into conspiracy theory, doubting russia, hacked our election, so he's getting into the politics of it too. is there a way to break the
evangelical community from this sort of right wing kind of world where whatever somebody like a jay sekulow says they will buy it and keep voting for the trumps. >> back in the day when -- produced a series of films called whatever happened to the human race that eventually started the evangelical anti-abortion movement, we were concerned with real issues back in those days. but like that proverbial frog that slowly gets boiled to death as you turn it up one degree an hour, the evangelicals have gone from being concerned with saving babies, i'm not talking about the pro-life issue as an example, but to bringing out the koch brothers because that's part of the big business taken over the republican party. i have a handwritten note from ronald reagan lamenting my father's death. i knew the bush family. i used to stay with jack kemp in washington. and whatever you used to say about ronald reagan or bush sr.
or jack kemp, they were idealess, in their own way they were true politician, statesmen, i disagree with a lot of the politics now as i look back, but these were not con artists who were starting neptistic family businesses whether it's called trump or jay sekulow's rip off of evangelicals or pat robertson who himself has become a billionaire with all his garbage on television talking about stopping hurricanes and all the rest. what he's really been doing is building an empire that wound up owning mining interests in apartheid so apartheid south africa at one point. these folks are grifters. get it through your head. donald trump is a grifter and he is in bed with other grifters. the trump children would understand the sekulow children perfectly as ivanka goes off to get a chinese patent on her product so she can sell them in china when no one else can get them. these folks are grifters. forget politics.
ronald reagan would hate this whole crew. richard nixon would hate this whole crew. they are taking the republican brand and destroying it. and someone who knew leading republicans in the 1980s though i consider myself a liberal now, vote democrat, the fact is i come from that background. and these guys would be unrecognizable to those people. >> yeah. frank, i'm going to have to have you come back, thank you very much. and charlie pierce will come back in a little bit. thank you both very much. >> thank you. >> up next, will the base of the democratic party get a seat at the table? don't go away.
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i got a chance to sit down this week with tom perez, chairman of the dnc. that interview is next. don't go anywhere. ent. last year, he said he was going to dig a hole to china. at&t is working with farmers to improve irrigation techniques. remote moisture sensors use a reliable network to tell them when and where to water.
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he touched on a letter about activists raising concerns about the dnc's commitment to putting members of the party's most loyal base in leadership positions. take a look. >> first of all, the letter was really important. and i agree with the basic premise which is that the democratic party has to up our game. we have to do a better job of addressing and including and engaging the african-american women community. and we haven't done that in the past. and our goal is to win elections. and to win elections in ways that are consistent with our proud values of inclusion. so we had a very good conversation and it was the beginning, it's not the end. and what we need to do we're working together for instance there were a couple of ideas that were put forth, we've got elections coming up in virginia and new jersey, and we talked about how can we target opportunities there in some of the state races for state
legislature where there may be african-american women running in those races and we can perhaps invest resources to help them win. because that's exactly what we're about. we're about winning elections. we talked also about what we have to do at the dnc to make sure everything we do from hiring to procurement to our engagement reflects our values of inclusion, opportunity, diversity and equity. and so i'm very appreciative both of the letter and of the conversation. and i'll be the first to admit that we have more work to do. >> and joining me now to discuss that and more of our interview is political strategist l joy williams and cara carr. i'm going to start with you, the letter that was written it comes off the fact when you look at presidential elections, we'll just look at the last one, african-american women are far and away the most loyal
constituency of the democratic party. black women went 89 -- or african-americans totally went 89, 8 for trump, but black women were like 94% for hillary clinton. in the meeting that you had with tom perez, did you get the sense that perez and the dnc now understand the gravity of the situation? >> well, we had a meeting. and, you know, like the chairman said, it's the beginning of the process. and our beginning of the process was actually raising our voices, you know, which i said on the show before. closed mouths don't get fed. and we will continue to raise our voices until the party gets it right. and so in this meeting this week it was the beginning, i think they've taken the first initial step, which is recognizing that they have a problem. i don't get the sense that they understand yet the complexity and the depth of the problem, but i think they will very soon. >> yeah.
i mean, glen da, one of the sort of glaring things that came out of the dnc race not only that tom perez won and he was the establishment choice, he was the person that the sort of writ large establishment preferred but also black women did not wind up in the leadership at least that we could see. they're saying they have a c.o.o. i think that is a black woman, but the key staff positions did not go to black women. do you get the sense that the party understands that that might have been a mistake? >> well, i have to say one, you know, we thank the chairman for sitting down. i mean, literally, joy ann, women who signed that letter from across the country to show the importance. 31 black women signed that letter, 24 of them attended the meeting about the sense of urgency. so he is fairly new into leadership. this is the first time in decades that we've had this much change in leadership at the top
of the dnc. he has started hiring -- there are black women in leadership. you know, our concern as we move forward is integrating a real conversation about black women's leadership across the board, both in elected office he still has some appointment opportunities and he has some hiring opportunities. the party spent over $1.8 billion in this last election cycle. so the question about if we're going to truly value black women and center them in a pathway forward, it's the investment in ensuring that we have hired black women that have strategic and decision making authority to have seats at the table. it's not just about having black women having black men stake, it's about having their leadership input one as a member of elected staff, as a member of elected leadership. and more importantly to whom that they are responsible for which are the members of the party across this country. >> l joy, you are a strategist among other great things, and, you know, one of the great
things that is very glaring if you work in politics is how white and male particularly it is at the consulting level, the people with the money, when you give your money to a candidate, a lot of that money goes into the hands of consultants who make money quite frankly selling tv ads. those people at that level are very white and male. the people who make decisions about how the campaign's direction will go also very white and male. how does one change that in a party whose constituency is so black and female? >> yeah, we call them blue shirts. so from a campaign perspective just to give a little dig in the weeds, you're correct. what happens is the larger contract sort of that number that glenda mentioned, the millions of dollars that are spent in the campaign cycle go to these larger firms that are mainly male, mainly white. and eventually things will trickle down to people of color in pieces. the pieces are usually go out in the field in october pieces and we'll give you $5,000 or $10,000 here. >> get us in the church piece.
>> yeah. or piece off. it's not just individual consultants but it's institutions as well because how much you spend in terms of black media on advertising as well. so if you have a deep investment in your base of voters for african-americans and african-american women, how much money are you spending in ads on our media and investing that way, which helps build our institutions which also then creates jobs. so at the foundation the democratic party has to embody the values it says it wants the country to have. so if you say you want an inclusive country, you say you want a diverse country, if it says that you want to see people of color, women and children invested in and supported, then the party needs to demonstrate that in how they operate at the very base level from everyone who opens the door when you arrive to the contracts and the messaging that you send. >> yeah. and, you know, glenda, we had this conversation about the democratic party both because it is the choice out of nine of ten african-americans, but also because in some ways it feels
like sort of the only way to go because republican party's messaging has been quite different. and i think for a lot of african-americans has felt sort of, you know, hostile, right? at least at particularly in this last election cycle. so you're talking about the democratic party, but even if you get outside of the parties, is there from what you've been able to tell a national infrastructure to do a massive voter registration and voter protection campaign? because we know that also disproportionately affects black women and african-americans in general. >> i think we all agree that we need to strengthen the infrastructure across this country. ultimately black women are the foundation to any winning coalition. currently, you know, as you mentioned joy ann that black women overwhelmingly are registered and vote democratic, but we are the foundation to any winning coalition. and currently that foundation is cracking. and for me that's concerning because black women when i woke up on november 9th continued to vote to move this country
forward. in addition in a time when progressives lost at the top of the ticket to the bottom of the ticket black women on the ballot broke through. we elected the largest number of black women in congress. and as you know in this politically toxic time, many of those women like u.s. senator kamala harris and representative maxine waters and the 20 black women that serve in congress are the conscience of this country and holding the values of their constituency and putting forth progressive values and progressive messaging and progressive leadership. so we need to invest in what is the quickest and the most valued return on investment that you can see, which is insuring that black womens voices are heard. so we need to build infrastructures outside of the party. there are many groups like higher heights and collective pac and many of the other growing organizations like color change that are doing that work on the ground. but the investments need to be deeper and longer so we can connect with every black woman
and family across this country. >> yep. democrats are sort of looking for wins, a lot of black women won on that 2016 ballot if you're looking for something to feel good about if you're a democrat and think we lost everything. oh, my god, everything is lost, all is destroyed. no, there were a couple things. l joy williams will be back. thank you, glrynda carr. and you can watch the full interview with tom perez on our facebook page. still to come, return of who won the week. more "am joy" after the break.
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>> grown hip-hop fans won the week. >> no, they didn't. lie. >> we won the week because we have a new album to listen to. >> that we can't get our hands on because we don't have title. >> why you ain't got title? >> because i'm slow. >> okay. grown hip-hop folks i say won the week because we have something new to listen to. do you remember the anticipation of a new album coming out? >> yes. >> it's really too soon to do deep analysis of each of the lyrics. >> talking jay-z of course. >> for just the appreciation to be excited about a release and being able to listen to it and not -- and just embrace the growth an artist has and the growth of a culture overall. >> absolutely. >> i would say we won the week because we got something new for the holiday weekend. >> i will get title. i promise. i'm sorry. been busy. big fan. >> chris, who won the week? >> the american people won the week in large part because the
health care disaster bill was not slammed on our throat. >> yeah. >> so the american people won the opportunity to be able to have more reasoned discussion. >> isn't it interesting that everyone sort of fumes about donald trump's erratic wacky tweeting but in a way he's saving the republic. >> he is. >> because he's preventing his party from doing anything. [ laughter ] >> let's go to charlie pierce on that note. not letting you go there. you have to earn a living. jeffrey pierce. you don't have to earn a living. you're a writer. >> that's true. i'm independently wealthy and i remember getting an album to crank it up. [ laughter ] >> that the neither here nor there. you know who won the week? the congresswoman barbara lee. she got the patent voted in 2001, which means we'll have a debate in the congress about
whether or not we want and long and lonely time. and when it passed spontaneously. >> see what happens when black wop men lead? . [ laughter ] >> hole low. >> she is amazing and it's a great choice. the lead responder for "playboy" did something i've been waiting for journalists to do in that briefing forever. >> you're claiming everybody right here, right now, this administration has done that, as well. why in the name of heavens in one of us write replaceable and any one of us, the audience has the opportunity to turn the channel. there is no option other than that -- >> i think -- >> we're going to ask you questions and you're here to provide the answers and what you
did is inflammatory to people all over the country that look and say see once again, the president is right and everybody else out here is fake media and everybody in this room is only trying to do their job. >> well, i disagree completely, first of all. i think if anything is inflamed, it's the dishonesty that often takes place by the news media. >> charlie pierce, was that a vicarious moment for every journalist in america. >> it absolutely was, and the better part of it for me was watching sarah huckabee sanders fl flub her way in the general direction of an answer. she never quite got there. >> she never wins the week. >> a long lonely slog for semi recognizable english. >> i cannot wait until her "saturday night live" profile is up. i got to give one more who won the week and this is serena williams who had the cover of life. she gave everybody life with this "vanity fair" cover.
it's interesting. "vanity fair", things like "teen vogue" alternative places of getting hard news are actually winning. >> yeah, you know, i actually love this and embrace it as a young person being able to have magazines that sort of gave me the information that i needed that was relevant to what was going on in the world, our critical sources back then. i enjoy it. i have interns in my office reading and seeing this stuff and connects to the work they want to see and the things they want to do in their studies and that they want to see that the brands that they support are doing. >> absolutely. >> they are connecting it to the pocketbook. >> can these reach republicans in the non-straight news outlets? can it ever penetrate? >> no. [ laughter ] >> i love chris. he does not mince words.
you win the week with that blue suit. summer suits win the week. thank you to our guests. that is our show for today. be sure to join us tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern for more "a.m. joy." we'll have that angry reporter right here on msnbc. bye, bye. or your digestion... so why wouldn't you take something for the most important part of you... your brain. with an ingredient originally found in jellyfish, prevagen is now the number one selling brain health supplement in drug stores nationwide. prevagen. the name to remember. i'm not a customer, but i'm calling about that credit scorecard. give it. sure! it's free for everyone. oh! well that's nice! and checking your score won't hurt your credit. oh! i'm so proud of you. well thank you. free at at discover.com/creditscorecard,
hey, there, everyone, i'm alex witt here in new york where it is high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. digging into records at the ballot box. what does this administration want to know about your voting profile? we're going to tell you why it's stirring controversy and who is pushing back. a new wrinkle in the health care debate. one tweet from the president could turn gop plans for repeal and replace into greater doubt than before. the nation's capital wouldn't be a ghost town in august if some rs