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tv   MSNBC Live  MSNBC  July 14, 2017 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT

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the bushes or show a run for his money with a new show between two bushes. be honest, you would watch that. we'll be be back monday with mtp daily. sunday catch meet the press. have a great weekend. breaking news, the lawyer at is enter speaking out about what she was doing there telling the wall street journal she wasn't working with russian authorities but she was meeting with russian authorities regularly. she has been spreading information on a long time nemesis of putin. he has made it hiss mission that enrage putin. i will speak to that hedge fund
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manager. we begin with details about that meeting at trump tower. we are learning a former counter intelligence offer also attended that meeting. some u.s. officials here is the top democrat reacted to this news. >> it's yet another very disturbing fact, if this is accurate, that another participant had not only russian ties but ties to russian intelligence. this is another disturbing turn of events. it provides another back to the kremlin that the trump campaign would accept the help of the russian government. >> today donald trump jr. said we know at least six people were there. there is still a whole lot we
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don't know. where was then candidate trump? yahoo! news reported they found out about the russia e-mails weeks ago. did they tell the president? and why didn't trump jr. get all of the facts out there when this story first broke? i'm more than happy to be trance pare transparent about it. >> this is everything. this is everything. >> clearly it wasn't everything. there is a sixth person that has not been identified. what have we known now. >> i think it's is russian
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american lobbiest. he does have a military background and is suspected of having ties. he add matly denies that it includes in causes that are very dear to putin's heart. he and the russian lawyer have been working together and trying to raise questions about i. they may have legitimate points but -- and they claim that the story they came to tell the folks at trump tower. the issue is it doesn't really square with the e-mails who have
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negative information and they said it was coming from a russian -- that account does not really square with what we are hearing about how this meeting tran transpired. >> and we'll talk about why it is relevant later in the show. it's not relevant if you're not connected to the russian government. if someone is wanting to take a meeting with his son, with his son-in-law to talk about that act you would not be there but of someone in the russian government. >> well, i'm not sure that's fair. i mean there are certainly private individuals who are interested in this. that's right. i mean the main driver of this effort has been the russian government. they are ignored. this goes after individuals in the government who are accused of human rights violations.
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there are people in washington and elsewhere who believe that lead to the creation of the act. it doesn't speak to whether it's a good idea or bad idea but the underlying idea of the circumstances around it has come under question. that is one of the things that this lawyer lobbiest has been working on. >> i will have bill on that. we'll talk to him about that. the bottom line is it targets individuals. it's not like sanctions on russian tomatoes it wouldn't seem likely they would be to have the act lifted. >> right. and not only that, there was no mention in that e-mail chain about that. it was something very different. there's no doubt that bob mueller will be getting every
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scrap of paper and asking every question they can of every witness to find out what this meeting was about. >> great reporting on this. we'll talk a lot about it in the coming days. with me now is joe crowelly. whether you is true. regular people wouldn't be fighting for lifting of the act because it targets specific russians.
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>> right. the jailers, people who lead to the jailing and. >> go ahead. >> yeah. so -- but it made the russian government quite angry because they were people close to the kremlin. in retaliation they passed a law preventing americans from adopting russian children. >> which is why you're referencing a meeting about adoptions. >> right. >> congressman, it becomes inconceivable to connect some of these dots. the idea that somebody connected to the kremlin even in a secondary manner floats this idea that there's damaging evidence on hillary clinton. donald trump jr. takes the bait. they have this meeting. some how the trump people are not satisfied and everybody goes
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home and none of this is ever spoken of again. i just cannot imagine a universe in which it has any logical appeal. >> this is an innocent meeting. this happens almost all of the time. nothing could be further from the truth. they met with russians as you have tied completely together here. this wasn't about apples or tomatoes or that was actually a bill that would come down on individuals who were responsible for the death of an attorney who is exposing the kremlin at its core. that's what this is all about. i think it moved from distu disturbing. this news is concerning. this news is outrageous. what has happened is outrageous. that's the tone that's really capturing washington at the moment. >> we have heard from a number
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of colleagues. they want to see kushner's security clearance lifted. we have heard from one or a little more than one republican. i don't know what the count is. bottom line is are your republican colleagues in congress on board, are they getting the fact that this is highly unusual and potentially risky behavior? there seems to be some connection to the russians here? >> i think they are very disturbidistur disturbed with this. everything is focused here on russia. in the end here it really has been disabling for them. with it not being outspoken, they are not seeing what they need to say. kushner really mislead the american people. he met with over 100 foreign agents and failed to report them on his application. his security clearance needs to be revoked. if it wasn't the son-in-law of
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the president we wouldn't have this conversation right now. >> and i will go over it in the forms he filled out. let me just ask you something. it's not clear all of our viewers were going to get this deep. there were two big chunks of sanctions. they didn't have anything to do with the elections. this was some years ago. >> yeah. >> and sanctions were improsed because of russians did and ukrai ukraine. those are much more economic. those are the kinds of sanctions that they may say this is frustrating. you're effecting russian people and their ability to buy vegetables and all these kinds of things. do you make that distinction? >> not exactly, no. the sanctions that we passed, they were targeted at individuals who we believe had
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committed human rights violations! just to be clear, these are people who had -- they were very wealthy individuals. they had properties in england and in the united states and things that really hurt them. >> yeah. and the sanctions were that they couldn't get a visa to travel to the united states and they couldn't do anything through u.s. banks. the ukraine ones came after the invasion. that's 2014. and they were also targeted initially towards russians who had helped and then also in a different part of eastern ukraine. they were targeted at individuals. they were in charge of big companies and the thinking with was that these companies had provided the income frankly
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speaking to the russian military and support so they could these invasions. >> so they were broader than the sanctions but still not broad enough they would be sitting to renegotiate them. >> here is the question. >> if one believes that the aim here is for russia to have these lifted the bottom line is congress can get involved. at the moment congress is involved in an effort to stop the president from being able to lift these sanctions. >> that's correct. in fact the branch of government is exercises its right to impose those sanctions because of crimea and ukraine. the bottom line here is and they need to pay a price for that.
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if the president is unwilling to do so they pay a price for their meddling. >> please stay with us. i want to get a little deeper. she speaks out on why she was there. she want today share information crew saiding against putin. they have a personal history. the man she is talking about will join me to respond the security clearance and a time line is kushner in trouble? plus the white house in full blown crisis mode. it reveals strife in the family.
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i'm more than happy to be trance parent about it. >> so as far as you know this is all of it? >> this is everything. >> yeah. once again, no. this the did i have f definitely not everything. no it was not transparent. at least one additional person was inside. he is the guy in the middle with a background. the hot seat just got a little hotter. he fail today disclose this new contact on his security clearance form. it is one thing to forget one time or a few times. it is another to misrepresent the fact that the fbi and this is where the trouble for kushner could lie. according to the new york times and yahoo! news a time line on kushner's evolving security form
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is immerging. two days before the inauguration an assistant and reports say he immedia immediately kushner met with russian ambassador. it was not disclosed. march 27th the new york times reports kushner met with the head of a russian bank tied to putin. it was not disclosed. april 6th he did not list having met with any foreign governor contacts chls it lists more than 100 meetings mid-may interviews for the first time. some time in june the russia meeting e-mails were discovered by lawyers for kushner. june 21st, kushner filed a
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second revised form to list the meetings. june 23rd the fbi interviewed kushner again a second time about his security clearance. around the time white house advisers tell the new york times kushner meets with president trump to discuss the issue. today july 14th we learn at least another russian was inside that secret meeting. with -- an interview with this rush than lawyer. the white house continues to insist there's nothing to see here. donald trump's lawyers say it. donald trump's his lawyers said it. there's nothing to see. why is it taking the new york times, ja hoyahoo! and the rests to get basic truths about meetings he should have
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disclosed on federal forms. >> yeah. there are hundreds of nothing burgers. they are piling up. that is the problem. it has not come from whether it's kushner or anybody else in this administration coming forward and saying i forgot this. we can say these news reports are triggering their memory, that they happened to forget all of these meetings. they seem to recollect them pretty quickly. do you have to look at this with a lot of skepticism if there were revelations they had sort of forgotten to put certain meetings on a security clearance form or any form less than transparent about that you can bet that donald trump and his surrogates would have been hammering away at that.
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it is why they are banging that drum and continue to raise the political pressure on this white house and on kushner specifically because there is certainly a lot of evidence here that he did -- he was less than fourth coming and obviously intentionally covering things up that is a felony. >> it is the form he keeps revising. new york times reports that kushner met with the head of russian bank tied to putin. we heard about what was apparently discussed and also interviewed the head of the russian bank. why -- given the sanctions around under what circumstance could he have?
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>> i don't know. i have written about this meeting. that bank was and is under sanctions. so maybe he was meeting with the banker to discuss taking the bank. i have no idea. he could not have been discussing doing business with that bank because it was under sanctions. >> so let's explore this a little more quickly. there is some talk that the meeting was because kushner's developer in need of funding and this bank might have been a potential lender or he was a member of the add mip strags. >> he cannot do buzz with that barng after the invasion with the ukraine. i have to also go back.
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i filled those things out all of the time. i would have never gotten the benefit of the doubt again, i think the standard is differently apparently it must be a problem for the moral and people in government watching how this guy seem to go get away with something most would be tied up to polygraph machines, put on administrative leave maybe with pay, probably with pay. they probably would have lost their jobs. they don't usually want to take a risk. there is a narrative that he wants the white house to push out surrogates to change the
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narrative around the latest twist in the russia scandal. this is kind of the opposite of how one might want to handle this thing. this is it is to more degree donald trump jr. because kushner is part of this administration. they should be repelling this yet more as opposed to being more transparent. >> right. there is a lot of projection taking place here as they are framing it as a rapid response pr problem. the problem is their behavior and things coming out, things that already happened, things that happened over the last year or two going back throughout the campaign. no way to spin them this is kushner and that part of the white house saying we need a change but as chief of staff they have been pushing for that
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for a long time. the root of that is the sort of business that he shares with his farnt, do whatever you need to do, take a meeting, don't worry about it. you can understand why perhaps they would be willing to take a lot of meetings back during the campaign when they weren't really sure they would win. the other thing was the report by the washington post. jared kushner. >> yes. so that was in the transition. that was after donald trump had been elected president and they were looking forward as to how they were going to and they were open to opening a back channel outside of what the intelligence
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could see. >> thank you so much. >> coming up, reports that the white house is in all out crisis mode. and the russian now name checking a major putincritic. who is the critic? why does he get roped into all of this? ake the stairs. at work, at home... even on the escalator. that can be hard on her lower body, so now she does it with dr. scholl's orthotics. clinically proven to relieve and prevent foot, knee or lower back pain, by reducing the shock and stress that travel up her body with every step she takes. so keep on climbing, sarah. you're killing it. dr. scholl's. born to move.
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look at the last 24 hours. today we learn add least one addition that will person attended that secret meeting. it was a former soviet counter intelligence officer. trump hires a veteran washington
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lawyer. he is the man to stop the man from tweeting. that's not easy. an expletive filled e-mail threatening a stranger who criticized him. kelly joins us where she is covering president trump this weekend. i don't know what the difference is between the white house being in crisis now and being in crisis at other times. i think one of the differences is a lot of key players have their own legal advice and they don't necessarily mesh with one another. >> we have come to see the trump family and trump businesses and now needing their own legal council there have to be new
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boundarie boundaries. you have the president who has his own personal outside council. you have the new lawyer you referenced who will be brought in to work in the white house ho answer some of the inquiries from congressional sources then you have his son-in-law with his legal team which is really? two sections now. one lawyer that was helping him with the filings. once they got ahead of his e-mail and so forth and run their own searches it helped them develop that list of names that were added to proper forms for ethics and security clearance. this isn't the kind of form where you fill it out yourself. then of course you have the president's son who is outside the president with his own lawyer. because they are family it would
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be typical for them to talk all of the time and maybe even strike that jazz as they would in business. they are saying let's remember you can't be talking about this, working on things joently. it has to be separate for everyone's ultimate legal benefit. it gets complicated for the trump family. >> is there are really any trump that anybody will try to donald trump's tweeting? >> i think there is concern but the president has said it is a mote of communication he wants and can use. there have been instances where he did take advice.
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there was a point at which he stopped doing it. that's one example huh saw the benefits. it is by saying it is a meeting anybody would have taken, just opposition research. i don't expect the tweets to slow down. perhaps there might be tweets he would have liked to send. maybe there will be legal advice. >> thanks a million. beth is a senior editor at msnbc. we were having a conversation. every time this white house comes under fire they seem to get more aggressive about this. kushner seems to be behind a push to get people talking about this. it seems like an unusual strategy given that everywhere they look there's a dumpster
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fire. >> it reminds me of a collaboration. it is just -- it's a screen play. it is not reality and yet it is. he is at the center of the white house. he has the biggest portfolio of any member of this white house. he is at the hort of this meeting. he had three, four, five, six people in them. >> jared has not been called to task for what's going on here. the fact that he is controlling pr strategy, we are told he is calling up cable news produce his people called to change -- he is focusing on the pr and too little -- >> kind of like the thing that describes what's happening. you know, you and i go back 20
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years in washington. >> we do. >> there have been white houses in crisis. at some point if it got off the defensive and decided we have to change the strategy and not just for the 30 or 35 or 40% of vetters but for all of america and the world. what would it look like? >> he could start working harder on policy. he wants the health care bill to go through. he wants a win. we haven't seen them talk about why it's an improvement if he believes that it is. he could work closely with congress on advancing an agenda. these overseas trips seem to go pretty well with. he seems to enjoy them. he patches up his -- he was telling everyone how terrible france was. yesterday he looked like he was
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bffs with the new president of france. if he could get away from twitter which that is not likely to happen. if he could stop seeing it as sort of this grudge match and feeling under siege all of the time and raealizing it's not about him, the person, it's about representing this country. >> well, this has always been a family bisz. in this way they were not in the government. they are not not government. they should step away, man ang the business and let their father and his team get on with the business of governing. >> beth, i'm sorry for outing us for working together 20 years oog.
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it's a source of pride for me. >> it's a source of pride for me. look how great you have done. >> who is the putin critic. what does he know about her? i will talk to him. there he is at an exclusive interview when we come back. for your heart...
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spoke to her. the lawyer revealing she has been meeting with russian authorities regularly including a top kremlin amounted prosecutor and she was waging a campaign against a u.s. sanctions law and the hedge fund manager who backed it working to spread information about william. it so happened that man is with me right now. he is getting his reaction for the first time. first some context. he was a hedge fund manager when he says his lawyer uncovered information about a multi-dollars corruption scheme tied to the russian government. soon after this man was arrested and jailed and when he died in jail brouder went to washington urging them to pass the act named for bill brouder's lawyer. congress passed it in 2012. it enranged putin.
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people who were close financially to putin. in response russia imposed restrictions on american adoption of russian children. both the russians wiin that meeting have fought the act. donald trump jr. said the meeting was about adoptions. now to bill who will be testifying before the senate judiciary committee next week. he is the author of red notice. going to talk to you. we agreed to have this conversation before i knew that this lawyer had spoken to the wall street journal and was going to bring your name up and said her business is talking about you and try to go get the campaign lifted. she said she was waging a campaign against a u.s. sanctions law working to spread information. what's your side to this?
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>> basically as you stated this is a -- this goes much higher. it goes up to putin. the act is a piece of legislation that he is absolutely terrified by because it hits his achilles heel. they imprison, torture and kill people. what it does is puts their offshore property at risk. so putin has been angry about this since 2012. he has been instructing people to do everything possible to try to repeal the act and part of that is to try to discredit the man who lob bid fbied for it, m. it is including this lady and mentioned the other character showing up as they go around the world fanning out with huge resources trying to stop me and
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stop the act from being implemented. they are trying to stop it from happening in canada, etcetera. >> what resources do they employ? where do they get them and how do they employ the resources? the act is passed by the u.s. congress. wouldn't their attention need to be on legislators? >> they are everywhere. just to start out with it has a large financial backing from a major family in russia. she is spending that money on u.s. lobbiests. they hired a number of lawyers, public relations, investigators. they made a movie they showed in washington. they found one or two members of congress. >> it is aimed at discrediting you in large part. >> it was base tli to try to take the story and turn it on its head.
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they claimed he wasn't murdered. he died after natural kicauses. they said he wasn't a wlis l blower and said i had been going around the world telling this lie. they tried showing this in washington and tried showing it the night before there was a hearing where his name would be put on. they convinced one to put an amendment in to take his name off of the bill. when they went into the session and into the house of foreign affairs mark up he was swatted down by every member of the committee. they put up a good effort, the russians did, in trying to make that happen. >> so one of the things that movie said and this lawyer tries to say about you and about him is that you have no proof or evidence that he was killed by authorities in jail. he died in custody.
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that much is known. that seems to be a running line of theirs. >> well, it's a running -- the evidence is overwhelming. we have pictures of his beaten body. we have doctors reports from their own kremlin doctors. we have ngo reports from prison visitors who were in there and did an investigation. -- shortly after he died he said that a terrible crime had been committed. it's just -- you know, this is like, you know, them saying they didn't invade ukraine. black is white, white is black. that's the kremlin line they put out. that is the line they put in this movie. thankfully nobody believed it. coming to this meeting it doesn't stop them from trying. they had some how found their way into donald trump jr.'s office. they gave it a try there like they did everywhere else. what you to understand about the
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russians is they will go over 100 different things and 99 of them can fail if one of them succeeds. i don't know how high their hopes were going into that meeting with donald trump jr. but it was part of a major kremlin -- >> let me ask you, blast your involvement now with both of these two russians we know who were in that matting? are you in litigation against them? >> i continue to be on the other side of the barricade as they try to come up with new tactics to try the discredit me and to tree to repeal the act. they haven't given up. i can say that with 100% certainty. >> are they threatening you? >> no. they are smear campaigns, litigation campaigns. there are other people that do the violent stuff. i have been threatened on
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numerous occasions with death, physical harm, with kidnapping. these people were not involved in that type of stuff. >> what do you think that meeting was about? do you think she was there to work wards getting it and that the information that they offered to donald trump jr. was to get that meeting? >> we don't know. first of all we don't know. you can't believe a word that comes out of their mouths. i would sort of push that to the side. we do know the major exclusive agenda that they have had was to get the act repealed. and so that is an agenda that comes straight from the top of the russian government. i would suspect they went to the trump meeting with their as their ask. i should point out that kremlin sort of intelligence operatives are well trained and they also
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understand very clearly that they are acting in return. what they offered to give in return we don't know. you can't believe a word they say. because the story keeps on changing from trump jr.'s lawyers and advisers i don't believe much coming out of their mouths. i can say something serious had to be offered. we may never know what that is. >> bill, good to see you. thanks so much for joining us. he was the hedge fund manager that that lawyer was here to target and is responsible for the act being adopted by the united states congress. we'll be right back. we're on to you, diabetes. time's up, insufficient prenatal care. and administrative paperwork... your days of drowning people are numbered. same goes for you, budget overruns. and rising costs, wipe that smile off your face.
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bombshell revelations all week long, all related to the secret meeting in trump tower with donald trump, paul manafort, jared kushner, president trump responding in this fashion. >> wonderful young man.
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he took a meeting with a russian lawyer. not a government lawyer but a russian lawyer. >> okay. well, we're finding out there's more to it than that. a key claim the president saying his son met with a russian lawyer, not a government lawyer. not that simple. coming up next, i'll talk to a former cia office here ran operations in moscow. liz assumed she could trust her dating site. liz assumed all dressings were made equal. assume nothing. just like the leading brands, these kraft dressings are made with high quality ingredients, at a price you can feel good about.
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>> we don't know, first, we don't know, you can't believe a word that comes out of their mouths. so i would push that to the side. what we do know is that the major exclusive agenda that they've had was to get the act repealed. what they offered to give in return, we don't know. you can't believe a word they say. >> all right. with me now, john seifert who served 28 years in the cia. john, good to see you. i very coincidentally had will browder booked on this show because i thought he would know something about this before we found out the russian lawyer said that her business was dealing with bill browder. we knew it was the act. but the response that you just heard where he said, it is not clear what they were doing in that meeting with donald trump jr. and paul manafort and jared kushner and whoever else was in that meeting. what's your take on all of this? >> this does have all the hall marks of a russian intelligence
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operation. excuse me, my voice is going a little bit. so what happened in that meeting is a little less important in the e-mail, as far as the russians were concerned, a trap was set, bait was put out and donald trump jr. took bait. the information the russians would need, whether elements of the trump campaign team were willing to compromise themselves. they've received their e-mail back. they would take people as access agents, to go in co-opted to do that meeting, to see if the trump people are will to talk further. so i think it is more of a test. >> so you've been in this business a long time. let's say it is a test. they go in to see if the trumps would be receptive to this information. they already knew because of the information we've seen, that donald trump jr. said, if it is what you have, i love it.
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so they say much ado about nothing. they started to talk about adoptions and everybody left. come on. is there any likelihood after baiting they will like that, after them taking the idea that there's a test, that everybody would walk away from this and no one would ever speak of it again? >> no. i don't think so. i wouldn't put too much necessarily in the meeting. they may be saying the truth. i don't know that they are. that the meeting was not interesting itself. we have a sliver of information. what we need is what the investigators would have here. what information did the russians have prior to this? what side of assessment did they do that led them to think this e-mail would work? that this meeting would be taken? these people were incredibly busy. somebody set it up the following day and then they bring friends to the meeting.
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you don't do it unless you have a sense of what's going to happen. >> i appreciate you being here. the former ceo officer. thank you for watching. i'm ali velshi. have a great weekend. "hardball" starts right now. the plot thickens. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve corn actikornacki in matthews. doubts about the evolving account of donald trump jr. who attend that had meeting on kremlin sourced dirt on hillary clinton. this morning there was a report that there was a previously undisclosed person also in the room that day. the russian american


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