tv MSNBC Live MSNBC July 15, 2017 2:00pm-3:00pm PDT
liu life in msnbc in new york. we're starting with the et russia controversy new refrlgss about the 2016 meeting with a russian lawyer at trump tower showing donald trump jr.'s explanation to be false. the meeting was larger than nbc news now confirming six people from the trump campaign. donald trump jr. paul manafort, jared kushner, the pores the lawyer working with the russian government, a lobbyist brought by the lawyer who was a russian sergeants later a naturalized american a translateser. the president saying friday it was a normal meeting though that anyone would attend. democrats do not agree with thap and here is how intelligence committee member jim himes and what he said today. >> the president's son clearly knew he was getting droger to information from a hostile foreign power and laid out a time table to use it. in my mind that's collusion. whether it's illegal or not of course -- remember collusion is not a legal term. whether it's illegal or not that's something for both the
justice department and the congress to figure out. >> but house minority leader had no trouble listing the crimes he she thinks were committed there. >> opposition research, documents and information from a foreign government or foreign national. plain and simple. criminal conspiracy to defraud the united states. impeding the lawful administration of a federal election or to pak an offense against the united states, cybercrimes hacking against u.s. citizens, the clinton campaign. conspiracy with respect for the espionage. >> joining me now nbc intelligence and national security reporter. ken delaney. the president calling the story a hoax. but getting more developments as the hours go what do we have in terms of the latest. >> well richard if it's a hoax it's a hoax in in case perpetrated by friends of the trumps you have mr. goldstone
the music promoter wrote the email telling don trump jr. that the russian government was offering derogatory information about hillary clinton. been don trump jr. took the meeting. now the story -- the news yesterday was the presence of the russian-born lobbyist who is interesting in his own right. what's perhaps most interesting about the presence was that it wasn't disclosed even after don trump jr. said i've told you everything there is to tell about the meeting. we're learning new things about it. and we're rinat akmetshin is the name of the lobbyist he did a stint in the intelligence. he is noun known as gun for hire. works with orlg arcing been accused of computer hacking although the accusations were withdrawn. and his presence at the meeting is adding a more intrigue sure to draw skrunny from investigators. >> ken in terms of what's
happening right now, not the most masterfully done so far in terms of it giving the drip, drip, drip we're saying day seven on this story right now. there is even goldstone the promoter you're talking about. and they not necessarily getting the story consistently on one -- in terms of consistent in terms of what they're saying. >> that's the remarkable thing about this. even under the most innocent explanations for the meet meeting. if it was really a nothing burger as the trump team has been saying. the way they handled the disclosures, changing the story three times, going on television and saying i've told you everything there is to tell when you plainly haven't done that. and even today we -- there is some potential that there was another person in the meeting that the trump lawyers are saying they can't tell us the names of everyone in the meeting. it's insplikable that they are violating the sort of first rule of crisis management, richard. >> what's going to be the follow-on this coming week?
we have as it isly asked that question. what will the five investigations do, and what does it indicate in terms of what's happening in the investigations based on what the press is learning along the way? >> well we never knows what's going to happen week to week but you can bob that the bob mueller investigation, the house and senate are going to seek every scrap of paper around this meekt and other potential meetings email as calendars phone records. they will draw a road map. because if don donald trump jr. was willing to take a meeting with russians promising droger to information on hillary clinton what other meetings did he and other trump aides take. that's the questions and there will abpaper trail to be obtained and that's where it's going. ken thank you so much for your reporting today as always. let's bring in van new kirk a writer for the atlantic monthly matt miller and nbc news justice and security analyst. he also served as chief spokeman at the department of justice. baurn ray mckwad is a former u.s. attorney for the eastern
district of michigan. let's start with you if we can here van. as we look at the latest developments in terms of who and what was discussed, what will be the implications moving forward for the investigations given that ifs in just the tip of the iceberg that tip is getting bigger. >> right spo i think the next couple weeks is where we see how much of a nothing purger or not a nothing burger this is. there are a couple of of things in play here. one is what the lines of inquiry by the mueller investigation and the congressional investigations are. and then we're going to think about sort of exactly what the motives of the russian government lawyer and the former soviet counterintelligence official who were in the meeting -- and lobbyist, what they were going after. now it opens up donald trump jr. as a person of interest in the larger russia investigation. so i think the next couple of
weeks are going to be sort of where we see just how much of this meeting was nothing. and there is a good possibility, that, say, i think donald trump jr. -- donald trump jr. -- his explanation that this was really nothing -- they got nothing out of it. that's still a possibility. i think we're going to see exactly what they got out of the meeting in the next couple weeks. >> and then the investigation just getting larger, matt. you know the latest reporting donald trump jr. now going to be looked at by one of the investigations at least in this russian connection question, matt. >> yeah, i don't think there is any way that bob mueller doesn't look at don jr. he just received the email -- not just received it but wrote back saying i am interested in information from the russian government basically what he said in taking the email. one of the things interesting about the new developments that ken first reported there is somebody outside the trump orbit to ask about what happened in
the meeting. before today we knew the three people from the trump campaign and a russian citizen who is not -- you can't reach with a subpoena because she lives overseas were the only people there. very hard to get independent account. now other people who are not necessarily lawyer to donald trump in the grand jury and ask them what happened. and not only that you we learn the first time yesterday that there might be documents from the meeting rebuke o, rinat akmetshin said the russian lawyer brought documents she gave to the trump campaign. bob mueller will be very interested in the documents. >> yeah, those documents, barbra if they were left, whether two pages, four pages, what might that mean to the investigations that are ongoing? >> well, i think robert mueller and his team would want to see what the documents are to see whether there is any merit to the claim that these related to opposition research for hilt. but an important point is even if they didn't peen if it is a nothing burger as phrase we've heard it doesn't matter to violate that -- either the statute rf conspiracy to did he
fraud the united states or the other crime that's been discussed campaign finance laws. it's enough that that's what they sought to receive. we all know the old sting operations to catch a predator where somebody thinks they're meet ago teenage girl instead it's a camera crew. it's enough you showed up for the meeting under some statutes. nonetheless i'm sure robert mueller wants all the facts including documents in this meeting and any others. >> van, but there is a something to this burger, is there not just based on what we've got. >> >> definitely. i think the acceptance fundamental meeting, the fact that there may be documents on hand and just i think the general lack of transparency, whether it matters in a sort of criminal context, a lack of transparency from day one from the trump administration, the campaign team, i think suggests basically gives a road map where to look in the investigation. and it matters in public opinion. and that's not a -- that's the thing that matters going forward in the investigation and looking to the future.
>> that's a good point, matt, as we talk about the machinations of this development -- developments i should say over the last seven days, americans, public opinion if you will is focused probably and health care and insurance and what is the best way to talk about this topic that is digestible and understandable and actionable? >> you know i think the investigations have to continue to pursue what they're pursuing independently. one of the strange things about the trump administration is that we automatically jump to look at criminality in any of the questions. the trump administration has been so untruthful about this from day one. we sometimes lose sight of the criminal wrong doing is the highest bar possible. but there are basic questions of right or wrong. should they have taken the meetings or told the truth about enemy? obviously they shouldn't have taken the meeting. >> they haven't told the truth about in from the beginning.
time and time again from the president himself down to multiple people in the campaign just denied that this kind of contact happened over and over. last summer, last fall, this spring. now we know that it did. i think all of knows -- the american people the questions they ought to have while the investigators pursue their course of action other people should ask why have they been so untruthful from the beginning? what are they trying to hide. >> barbara, build on that as a former federal prosecutor you've heard the commentary coming democratic representest intent to collude, collusion. and conspiracy. are those are some of the words we've been hearing. of that where where is the league or jeopardy you're watching focusing on right now related to the three terms. >> conspiracy is the one we use more frequently in the law. there is a federal statute that makes it a crime to defraud the united states. that's been interpreted to mean
if the statute is satisfied if someone attempts to impede the functioning of any department of government. and that could certainly include. >> do we have that. >> it could include the federal election commission. people would want to know additional facts before they made a conclusive decision whether that law was violated. but certainly all the elements appear to be there. i think that there are potential statutes that have been violated here, conspiracy is the word we would use. and i'm sure mueller and his team are -- are working hard to get to the bottom of it. >> barbara mckad, thank you matt miller and van new kirk. >> education secretary betsy devos catching heat as the trump administration looks to roll back policy concerning sexual assault. >> i'll speak with two people on different views on what should happen going forward. noo
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dwos. is staring controversy to roll back obama era gienz on campus sexual assault. devos sat down with three groups affected by title nine. stault viefrz students accused of sexual assault and administers telling reporters today was a day to listen to all sides of the debate. >> no student should be the victim of sexual assault. no student should feel unsafe. no student should feel like there isn't a which to seek justice. and no student should feel the scales are tipped against him or her. >> the meeting came a day after canned as jackson the acting head of the department for civil rights told "the new york times" quote the accusations 90% of them fall into the category of we were both drunk. we broke up and six months later i found myself under a title ixs investigation because sthe died our last sleeping together wasn't right. jackson apologized saying as a survivor of rape myself i would
never seek to diminish anyone's experience, my words in the "new york times" poorly characterized the conversations identified had countless groups of advocates. what i said was flippant and i'm sorry. joining me now sno cynthia garrett the president of profamily advocating for campus equality. >> thank you for having me. >> sorry with moving quickly on that. the question i had here cynthia, was which side or both sides reflect potentially what she was thinking? >> which side she was thinking. >> the two statements i just read, that's right. >> i believe she was thinking of both sides. because like our organization we want fairness for everybody. we were formed by mothers. i'm a mother with two daughters. i don't want to see victims not protected. i don't want to see the office for civil rights ignore the campus sexual assault issue. i think prevention and response is very important. and when you say roll back obama
administration requirements, i think it's more correct to say that we feel they need to be reissued with the participation of all the impacted parties. originally they were issued without consulting with campus administrators or defense counsel. i think the notice and comment procedure provided by the dmifrt dmft procedure zbloomt. >> what's the improvements you'd like to see based on the lack of involvement of all the stake holders in the conversation. >> we'd like to see fair processes for both parties. and i believe that is possible. the reason i believe it is i recently served on an american bar association task force which included perspectives from all sides. we had victims advocates.
we had campus administers. defense. we were able to come into a room, spend very long day and two or three other conference calls going through every procedure that's relevant to the campus process. and although i went into it not being confident that we would reach a consensus, by sitting there and listening to the other sides and understanding their needs and perspectives, we came together. some of us gave in here to get another procedure that we thought was more important. but the -- the aba remotes i think serve as a model for what's going forward with the administration. and it does not take away victim protections. it does not get rid of o.c.r. oversight. and it does not impact civil rights. >> just a little bit more background on your organization, right, facework families advocating for campus equality.
a advocate for mothers of sons falsely accuseland. then there are those who say well maybe the energy needs to be focused on victims, survivors. how do you respond to -- and you heard it before, right the criticism that the organization is potentially not giving enough attention to the suffering victims who point out, the statistics are only a small percentage of those actually going through and have suffered and now surviving sexual assault. >> well i think you need to realize that those statistics, that 2% to 8%. >> 2% to 10% to if yeah alluding to the same. >> i think you need to realize that it pertains to the criminal cases. and in those cases, the standard is beyond add reasonable doubt. defendants are sbiltsed to know what they're accused of, allowed to see the evidence against them. they have attorneys representing them vigorously in court. they have juries supposed to be
independent and judges who are supposed to be nonbiased none of that is provided in most -- i don't want to say most but some campuses do it well. but in many campus processes the students are not informed of what they're accused of before they're interrogated. they are denied complete access to evidence. you tell me in a process that's designed to find the truth why would you not allow a student to see the evidence against him or her? and we do have women who have been accused. so when you look at those statistics you have to realize that those come with procedures that are -- procedures intended to ensure the decisions are accurate. and the campus system is an entirely different animal. >> cynthia. >> if you raise the burden of proof from your organization's perspective, from your -- as the leadership as part of this organization, do you believe then it may keep those who have suffered and survived sexual
assault from coming forward to nondeclare if the burden of proof is raised? >> we are not necessarily advocating for raising the burden of proop although originally when i went into the aba task force meetings i felt that was necessary but after much execution. >> what changed your mind. >> because there were other procedures that were more important. 'added many due process like procedures, access to evidence, you know support with -- of an advocate, notice of everything you've done before somebody tries to question you. and we -- we suggested that there should be a unanimous decision by a three-person panel. we didn't change the standard of evidence but what we did realize among ourselves was that when campus administrators applying the standard they weren't doing so correctly they were doing 50% and a feather. that's not true. what happens is you're supposed
to evaluate the quality of the evidence. you don't weigh all the evidence coming in front of you. you weigh the quality evidence and the it's the quality evidence you you are supposed to weigh. >> thank you so much i appreciate your time cynthia garrett who was at the meeting when discussing this with the secretary thank you for your time there in san diego. >> thank you for having it. >> you bet i want to bring in charreden aand she is in with the project organization rape and camps. you were there with the education secretary. you heard the conversation that we had there with cynthia. she was saying we need to get more voices in there. and you know her organization f.a.c.e., who is mothers with sons in such cases. what would your reaction be to that. >> i completely agree. but i believe that we need to consider and weigh which voices are most important when we're talking about title ix.
title ix is a civil rights law protecting all students from skaul violence in education, and specifically the 2010 dear colleague letters ensures equal and four process for both parties as well as services and resources many survivors depend on in order to stay in school. because survivors are the most affected and impacted when any decision is made about title ix and the 2010 dear colleague letter. we ask the secretary meet with survivors nationwide and host pennsylvania listening tour to really get the different perspectives and understand why title ix is so important and now the 2010 dear colleague -- or 2010 dear colleague letter impacted their lives. >> one of the things cynthia was saying, charreden a, the intent -- or the way the intent
is actualizing itself on campuses is that the voices have -- are not being heard and therefore the which the policies are being activated -- what are you seeing on campuses? >> what we're seeing is that campuses need more guidance and clarity of how to standardize practices. and so what some organizations -- or some institutions have been doing, have been going great. and they have been looking at evidence-based practices, and looking at trauma-informed practices, and have been implementing those. we also see in other places where any just don't really have the resources or they don't know really -- have the training to really implement some of the other policies that the dear colleague letter outlines. what we really need is more author o explanations how the
practices are meant and what that looks like on the college campuses, rather than taking some of the protections away. especially we want -- we all want fairness and equality. and rescinding the guidance would take away that -- that guarantee. >> as part of that -- and cynthia is one of the groups that does say this -- that the obama era regulations lowered the burden of proof, what would your response be to that? >> my response is that for decades the office of civil rights have been moving towards trauma informed and evidence-based practices. what they had found before is that many schools and institutions have indeed been using the preponderens of evidence standards which indeed values both the respondent and complainant in a campus hearing. so that values both their educations and both of in re
testimony and stories with equal weight whereas raising that burden which would not only be skrim thatter to towards sexual assault and sexual violence on campus, because all other disciplinary proceedings on campus are based off of the preponderens of evidence as well. but basically that would -- highering that burden of proof would tell survivors you need to prove exactly what happened and that your testimony don't mean as much as the accused. >> are things getting better on campuses, the numbers that we have on screen right now? 1 in 5 women sexually assaulted in college one in 16 men sexually assaulted in college? >> right, right. so yes. i believe what's getting better is the practices and the assistance afterwards. of course we -- we definitely as a culture and a society need to
focus more on changing the culture and changing in rape culture to end it so that we could have these appropriate, healthy relationship conversations before anyone even steps foot on a college campus. so we could understand what consent is. and so there isn't so many -- so high prevailens rates of sexual violence on campus. but what we have been seeing is that more and more students now -- and it's particularly the vulnerable students such as transgender students, students with disabilities, students of color and lgbtq students are allowed to stay in school now longer because they do know rights. and because any do have access to those resources. >> what did you say to the secretary? >> so, i explained to the secretary just a little bit about what i said before, is that really we need to listen to different perspectives, such as
perspectives from students in rural areas, students who go to historically black colleges and universities, and we really need to take into consideration how the intersection of different oppressive identities is the reason why we need to really provide more guidance and more understanding of how race, gender class income all affect sexual violence a, and the impact students have after being sexually assault andrea how they can stay in school. >> the one thing you can agree with and you and the cynthia and the secretary is that concentrating on campuses across the country is a right place to start talking about this very important topic. thank you so much thank you. >> thank you. >> all right up next the uncertain fate of the republican health care bill the focal point of a discussion at a gathering of governors. in rhode island today. we're going there for a live
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club in new jersey watching the women's u.s. open after rafrg back in the states from paris on friday. it comes as the president president faces new questions in the russia investigation. we know the june 2016 meeting at trump tower included not just a russian attorney but also a russian american lobbyist who is a former soviet counterintelligence sergeant. the trump administration is considering policy that would expand the powers of the department of homeland security. the "washington post" reports it it would be able to expedite the removal of undocumented immigrants that cannot love they lived in the u.s. continually for 90 days or more. that proposal is under review and would not require congressional approval. new developments now on the latest version of the republican bill to replace obamacare. two major insurers are now asking senate republican leader to remove the ted cruz amendment that wow would allow insureser to sell cheaperer bifurcates plans. blue cross blue they would and
are calling the plan unworkable in any form. president trump still sounding optimistic in the weekly address. fake a listen. >> it's a common sense approach that restores the sacred doctor/patient relationship. you're going to finally have great health care at a lower price. >> this weekend, top trump officials including vice president mike pence mick mulvaney and health and human services secretary tom price. they are trying to garner support at the national governor association gathering. >> i'm not there yet. you know they have resolved about three issues i was concerned with. but they're still what i perceive to be a cost shift to the states. we have to look beyond just simply the medicaid dollars. that's the mistake is everybody is making right now. >> and then there is the resistance on the hill.
all right. well at the measurement as we look at the resistance we see kentucky rand paul and maine's susan consequentlies college out in opposition. last count numerous senators are still on the fence regarding approval while the margin for passing it borders on slim and none. msnbc alex joins us from providence rhode island last time we were talking they were wrapping it up. and if they have, what compromises have you heard coming out of the governors, this as they obviously have a much wider view of who needs help and how to help them compared to members of congress. >> right, richard these governors on the front lines of implementing health care with the federal government, especially on medicaid which was the key issue discussed at all the meetings both in public and private and what i heard from governors, and the concern
specifically is around the expansion of medicaid under the affordable care act. this was the deal where the federal government offered states to foot most of the bill if they expanded eligibilities. r states took that offering including the district of clumia. most of them were democratic but not all. republican governors did it including mike pence as the governor of indiana. the gop bill would roll that back and woi save money but also reduce the number of people getting coverage congressional burjt office estimated 15 fewer female would have coverage under medicaid that's concerning to governors on both parties not only counting on that program to cover residents but to balance their own budgets. they discussed that with secretary price and with the vice president yesterday. but i have to say having talked to a lot of the governors i'm not sure that as in national governors association meeting concludes that this is really that much closer to passage.
still lots of concerns even among republicans and very few republicans frankly speaking out in a full throated way to support the i will, richard. >> the white house here alex with new energy for the most part standing on the sidelines in this latest rendition about you now coming out as we were discussing in the lead in to you that they were trying to influence what the governors think hoping the governors will influence what their senators are thinking. >> that's essentially a bank shot move that's lobbying senators of course but also the governors a lot of the senators have said they will defer to governors taking into account what the governors are saying. specifically the one getting the most attention is the brian sand oh value in nevada. his senator dean had heller moderate republican first one to km out against the last version i talked to sand oh value after he met with secretary price saying he is still not convinced about the bill. the administration saying states will have more flexibility and
the medicaid program is unsustainable in plb good it for governors in the long-term even the governors in their own party weren't buy going. >> thank you so much. nbc alex there in providence rhode island there with a lot of governors. >> president trump insists that voiter parade is a reason he lost the popular vote. new laws across the country would have a significant effect on future elections. we're diving into that next. it's looking up, not down. it's being in motion. in body, in spirit, in the now. boost® high protein it's intelligent nutrition with 15 grams of protein and 26 vitamins and minerals. for when you need a little extra. boost® the number one high protein complete nutritional drink. be up for it (flourish spray noise) (flourish spray noise) (flourish spray noise) (flourish spray noise)
>> we can be babies. but you take a look at the registrations you have illegals, dead people. you have this. it's really a bad situation. it's really bad. >> president trump there insisting that widespread voter fraud cost him the popular vote in november. while there is no everyday to back up the claim. the evidence is fueling a voterer surge across the country that at least 99 bills to restrict access to the polls have been introduced or carried
over from previous sessions according to the brennen center for justice. eight states have passed or are implementing laws this year with more vigorous videoer id requirements. proposeants say the laws help ensure elections are on the up and up. but lawmaker is say widespread fraud does not exist. and critics say it is to inenfranchise. minorities and younger voters, elderly americans. president trump set up a existing to investigate voter fraud asking all 50 states for voter information. partial social security numbers and more and birth a dates. so far 48 states in the union, they're not fully complying with the panel's request or just saying no. according to nbc news count pch thursday the white house published a 112 page document of mostly critical comments from voters about the voter fraud commission. by doing so released email addresses, phone numbers and home addresses. and concerns over cybersecurity
are on the rise with one in four registered voters they may stip skip future elections over fears of hacking. that means 59 million voters could stay home on election day. let's bring in nbc news reporter, following all this for nbcnews.com. back off the road looking at how real folks here the messages about potential voter fraud. let's start with that. just off the road. you were in missouri. you were there with the secretary of state. what did you learn. >> i drove all over the state with the secretary of state, jay ash kroft learning. >> republican. >> republican secretary of state who is implementing voter id law passed before his tenure by aggressively implementing the law preaching this law this is the best thing to do for elections. people say what kind of fraud is many people cited the president he says there are millions of people voting how are we stopping them. the secretary of state response was really you know we don't have any numbers we're not sure
how much this happens. but then a explains a very implicated law how you can vote there were fair amount of people there said they were worried they weren't going to be able row troet are the friends wouldn't or the restrictions made made it harder to vote. >> what about the secretary of state say in the state what was his argument if there was a headline a tweet he would put out if you will about why you should supportway he wants. >> he says if you want to vote you should be able to vote 80s implicated law and if you want to get an id the state helps missouri is one of the states trying to make it so they're not charging people to vote if you have to pay for a id to vote it's like a poll tax. but they're working hard to make sure you can votes. no one case is important no one case is voter fraud is allowed. vote one case of voter fraud how much voter fraud is worth this la law. >> what did you hear mostly from voters in the big mo? what wrote o were they reacting to the message.
>> i can't stress enough that people getting to a library on laurk on a weekday rnlt the people disenfranchised the people goat fog the education tour are going to vote the people disenfranchised are the people don't have the ability to get the dmv. i renewed my license i was latd to work twice for that. a lot of people don't that flexibility in the lives people who don't are the ones who say gosh yoch nigh license or it expired last month ahaven't fix to do so i can't vote. that's what people are worried about. and i think that the fact that people who have licenses who have a lot of flexibility to get to the events are also worried. >> so jane, that's missouri, right. and good for you that you were in the car and you like to be in cars that amount of time. there is lls this white house 112 page document showing there is a a lot of folks critical of the plan. there was also when we looked at the map of states saying no we're not going to participate in this. there is also the -- the -- the reveal of personal information
that they said was not going revealed. that was revealed. what are you seeing in terms of taking missouri below it out based on all the reports come out. >> when you look at the data come out states like this. memo has gone boosting how much information they're giving. we've seen in the past with big grupt groups of data different states have different data it's apples to oranges. many states say they are not fully implying they are partially complying. you are seeing data out of commission. i would be careful to read that data carefully. if you have a lot of john smiths all over the country all registered to vote in different states it doesn't mean you have voter fraud. the more you have -- america's voter rollsy are not cleanest things. >> that's been said. >> they have not been carefully taken care of in the past it's different. it don't mean people are voting fraudulently. just because he is on the roll twice does not mean he voted
twice. >> jane thim thanks so much. >> coming up three people dead after a high rise fire in honolulu hawaii. the latest on that investigation as authorities look for answers. some incredible video, a sink hole swallowing the home in florida. whoa! you're not taking these. hey, hey, hey! you're not taking those. whoa, whoa! you're not taking that. come with me. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. mom, i'm taking the subaru. don't be late. even when we're not there to keep them safe, our subaru outback will be. (vo) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.
look at me... you used to be the "yes" guy. what happened to that guy? legacy technology can handcuff any company. but "yes" is here. so, you're saying we can cut delivery time? yeah. with help from hpe, we can finally work the way we want to. with the right mix of hybrid it, everything computes. an investigation is on going after a fire in a ha eye ehigh rise is taking the lives of three people so far. that fire tore through at least a dozen units in a condominium on friday. the building is almost 40 stories high. the fire lasted for five hours. it did not have fire sprinklers, by the way. the building opened in 1971, three years before sprinklers became mandatory in honolulu high rises. is now to florida, there a sink
hole swallowed two homes and a boat. the hole grew to about 250 feet wide and then that. the scene is labeled a hazardous materials incident now because chemicals from at least three septic tanks are in the sink hole. cleanup is on hold until approval comes from gee olgsz and environmental experts. fortunately no one was inside the homes that you saw being just swallowed up there. but firefighters did rescue two dogs from one of the houses there. all right. president trump not ready to wave the white flag in the ongoing health care battle. he says i'll be at his desk with pen in hand when or if the revised republican healthcare plan makes if through congress. up next, i'm joinld by a republican and a democratic to discuss the uncertain future of health care legislation. stick around. for your heart...
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the white house challenged the cbo score arguing the american people and congress should give this prediction little weight. we've reported here on this program that the cbo's overall scoring of the aca was only off by 6%. with us now republican strategist also democratic strategist, a former chief counsel to the house judiciary committee. let's start with you, christopher. you've seen the reporting here. it's looking a little tough right now in terms of is it coming out of the governors gathering that they will try to influence the vote in the senate upcoming. as terms of the whipping of the senate vote right now, that doesn't look good either. so the question to you is is there a compromise that you would suggest to the senate? >> well, yeah. i would suggest to the senate, number one, take the medicaid piece out of it at this point. leave that for a later discussion. two critical components. one is going to be the reduction
of premiums. that's extremely critical, making sure that the cost of premiums are reduced. and so i think that's important. make sure deductibles are reduced. and take the medicaid discussion off the table at this time. >> julian, would you agree with that compromise that christopher is saying, hey, republicans in the senate, how about this idea? >> i think it's a great theoretically. it's whis ling past the graveyard. this is a bill that is having a great deal of difficulty getting enough republican support and for good reason. the cbo estimates which have been accurate on almost every single individual item as they looked at obamacare show that we're going to be left with junk plans for basically the young. for everybody else, premiums are going to increase, out of pocket expenditures are going to increase. so with the cruz amendment now,
the guarantee that you can't be discriminated against for pre-existing conditions, which is important to tens of millions of americans, if not hundreds, that goorn tee will be out the window as well. the idea of leaving medicaid off is just a none starter for republicans. republicans have campaigned against the medicaid provisions in obamacare, which gave as many as -- >> do you think democrats -- >> 15 million -- >> hang on one second. do you think democrats will buy off on that by saying we'll leave medicaid for later. we'll focus on the private side of this equation. >> no. you have to do exactly what the trump administration did earlier this week. they shifted $50 million into alaska to shore up the private markets there. there are plenty of ways to fix obamacare. the american public by a factor of 70 to 30. 70% of americans want congress to fix obamacare. simply saying let's just not deal with medicaid later and let's take a wrecking ball to the rest of obamacare is a none starter for republicans.
it's a none starter for democrats. the other point about the republican bill is that 22 million people will lose insurance. >> a little bit of an eye roll, shall we say coming there. >> yeah. yeah. because, i mean, at this point, so as far as, you know, what you're saying, we would never have been in this mess had we not had obamacare. so what you're suggesting. >> what's the mess? >> hold on. hold on. the mess is the health that we currently have. that's the mess. so what you're suggesting is that we cleanup the democratic mess. that's what you're suggesting. >> is it really a mess -- >> is it -- >> perfect. >> let me ask christopher. >> hang on for just a minute. i just want to add something that came out in the "washington post" today. and that is that the cbo estimates are widely off. when you look at the overall number, the estimations from the
cbo were 30 million people under 65, again, that would be the uninsured number. and that was a drop from a much larger number. it actually went down to 28.2. so when you look at that, christopher, the cbo estimates based on what aca has done has turned out quite well for the obama administration. >> almost uniformly. >> well, it's turned out quite well if you believe in the individual mandates of the taxes there with -- >> i'm not sure the number dromd. i'm sorry. i only have 15 seconds. >> richard, let's get to the point. obamacare, we got insurance for over 25, 26 million people yums have gone down. the markets are stabilized. people have pre-existing conditions. 70% of the american public want to fix obamacare. the republican bill will take a wrecking ball to it. had is it 23 million people will be out of -- >> all right. >> premiums -- >> and that's why 20% of the
american public support it this thing is a stinker. >> i thank you both for your spir sit conversation. >> thank you. >> thanks for staying with us here on msnbc. stay tuned. we'll have more updates throughout the evening right here on msnbc. opposition research, documents and information from a foreign government or foreign national. plain and simple. criminal conspiracy to defraud the united states, impeding the lawful administration of a federal election or to make an offense against the united states, cyber crimes, hacking against u.s. citizens, the clinton campaign. conspiracy to with respect to espionage r. so we need to follow the facts and what did the rest of the family know and when did they kn