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tv   AM Joy  MSNBC  July 30, 2017 7:00am-9:00am PDT

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your doctor will test to see if you've ever had hepatitis b, which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after harvoni treatment. tell your doctor if you've ever had hepatitis b, a liver transplant, other liver or kidney problems, hiv or any other medical conditions and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with harvoni can cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. common side effects of harvoni include tiredness, headache and weakness. ready to let go of hep c? ask your hep c specialist about harvoni. john kelly will do a fantastic job. he has been a star, done an incredible job thus far, respected by everybody. >> good morning.
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welcome to am joy, coming to you today from loss angel lit. meet the new white house chief of staff. the former department of the homeland security who's replacing reince priebus. kelly, who along with james mattis and h.r. mcmaster is among the current and retired military leaders trump refers to as "my generals." he's facing the hutask of -- might look to s time as the head of homeland security. during his brief tenure there he presided z over an aggressive immigration crackdown that has swept tens of thousands of undocumented immigrants into detention his donald trump took office. kell kelly has exhibited the one quality he prizes most. the loyalty to donald trump. which kelly made clear
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testifying before house committee in february. >> i work for one man. his name is donald trump. >> and joining me malcolm nans, former -- republican strategist and jonathan of the washington post. what can we glean from general kelly's tenure so far about what kind of a chief of staff he would be? >> i think it's pretty clear general kelly must have done a really bang-up job for donald trump over at dhs. immigration crackdown, instituting the travel ban with instantaneous authority. they didn't wait a minute or for paperwork to come down. i think he thinks i have a marine general. he's going to instill discipline in this case and do my bidding. for the most part i think kelly himself is going to have a very
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interesting challenge. >> i guess the question would be whether it's his idea -- going to do as he's instructed by his superior in this case, his boss, the president of the united states. this is kelly in january 31st press conference and after the implementation after of the first iteration of the ban on muslim travel and the chaos that followed. >> i knew he was going to sign an order about a year and a half or two years before he became the president elect. >> so, do you get from general kelly that he essentially aligns with donald trump's ideology on things like the travel ban? >> yes. i think you're going to see strength and leadership out of kelly. but joy, here's the bigger deal on this in my opinion. i think we all know that kelly is a leader and he is strong, and everybody likes him. but the thing of it is, did he
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take this position with being the chief of staff with conditions? or without? because if he took the position without any conditions, then who knows if there's really going to be a change or a shift in the way things are done in the white house? because you've got to look -- donald trump, the white house is run like a circle -- like a spoke with donald trump here and different people all reporting to the president, and nobody going through a gatekeeper. and i think that kelly is going to demand to be the gatekeeper and real chief of staff. so, the big thing is going to be did he set conditions before taking that position? >> well, that's a good question. because one of the issues with his predecessor is number one he clearly didn't have the respect of the president but he also was defied by the incoming communications director anthony scaramucci said i'm not going to report to you. he managed to get himself to report directly not president.
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do you anticipate that general kelly is going to submit to that kind of arrange.? >> nothing's going to change, joy. to the point he could very well be a great gatekeeper, bring order to the white house, what good is a gatekeeper when the lion is already out of the gate. the president of the united states, not his staff, is the problem and unless and until the president gives up twitter, submits to full-on discipline that should come from a chief of staff, lichlts what mits what h actual things that will drive the message -- does anybody infrastructure week. make america great again week. last week was supposed to be about american heros. those sorts of things would be driving the national conversation and driving national policy if you had a disciplined president of the united states. and unless general kelly can
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rein in president trump, all his efforts will be for naught. >> and rosa brooks, i think one of the signals as to whether or not -- traditionally the james baker type of chief of staff could tell the president that's a bad idea. don't say that, mr. president. that hasn't been the case with donald trump. let's go back and look at the way general kelly reacted in march. this is when donald trump essentially accused the former presidenth crime. accused him af wiretapping him in trump tower. this is how general kelly responded to that. >> hovering over our discussion now is the big head line of the day. this amazing charge from the president of the united states that president obama personally ordered a surveillance of trump tower in new york during the campaign. now, you're pretty sensitive information. are you familiar with that. do you believe that? you've worked with both of these
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presidents. >> i don't know anything about it other than when i was sitting in the off studio here watching kn cnn. the if the president said that he's got reasons to say it. he's got some convincing evidence. >> he did not have consincing evidence. did does that give you pause about whether or not general kelly is go going to be the kietds of chief of staff when he does something like that? >> i don't think he will. i think everything he's done so far suggests he's not going to be the guy that goes to the president and trying to rein him in. i think he is going to be good at trying to make the trains run on time in the wlous with lesser staff, and he may be successful as that but as they said the fundamental problem is donald trump. no one can control him frankly. i don't think he's even going to try. to me, the only thing that's a little bit more frightening than the idea of a disorganized
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chaotic trump white house, which is what we've gotten so far is an effect stiff organized unchaotic trump white house. because i think the only thing saving the nation from even deep deeper catastrophe is because they can't get anything done. >> i think the other thing is i get the sense just from these last two hires, anthony scaramucci and the things he said that had to do with these leaks. you get the sense that maybe the kelly hire is along the same lines and designed to do the same thing to sort of tamp down on t on the leakiness of the white house. this is back on may 28th on meet the press. he's talking about leaks and he invokes the t word in talking about leaks. this is talking about the uk investigation into the manchester bombing. >> it's a totally unacceptable. it's borderline if not over the
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line of treason. >> you believe it's pleasen to leak some of this stuff. >> i do believe it is. i believe when you leak the kind of information that seems to be routinely leaked, high, level of classification. >> what was leaked in this manchester bombing? you -- >> i think it's darn close to treason. >> now, he was specifically talking about information that leaked out from the administration about the investigation into the manchester bombing but do you get the saens that maybe the reason he's being brought in and that trump is bringing in one of his generals is because he wants to shut down the leaks in the west wing? >> it's a very good point. look, it just piggyback what jonathan is saying. when you're a leader a leader wants to sur surround herself with people that can give wise
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counsel. he seems to want to surround himself with people that tell tt he's great. when you're doing policy, when awe-dr when you're looking at things there's no conceivable way you can have an in-depth understanding. if those people are just going to say hey, your decision is right and not question you or push you to make the right decision, how are we going to be a better country. at the end of the day, since this administration has tang ng office, we've had a mist h. list of people that are meant to be moderating voices. the last one is jarrod kushner. i have a lot of respect for general kelly but i don't have a lot of high hopes. >> i apparently he's for the wall -- i don't know if he's for the wall. actually it's the opposite. there was a piece friday in the "new york times" about kelly and the things he doesn't agree with donald trump on. the wall is one of them. this is a little excerpt. he was no the always in lockstep with mr. trump's policies.
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and call russia a threat not united states as the president signaled a friendly approach to moscow. the chances that general kelly can do what none of the intelligence services, all 17 of them have been able to do, which is to convince donald trump that a russia is a threat to the united states and no a end from, what do you think of his chances of being able to do that? >> general kelly's opinions to himself about whether he's for the wall or not even as they were coming out of dms, they won't matter at all. he's going to start acting like a marine general when he gets there. the because it's been made very clear that donald trump is the decision maker and whatever he says goes and you will repeat what he says on national television. he may offer his advice but we've seen what happens to everyone else who offers advice. they're immediately drummed out as soon as they cross donald trump's very, very low threshold of his great opinion of himself.
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>> and that essentially leaves one more person that repeats what he says but okay what does that mean for the republican party? because they're facing a white house that's already said they want to publicly distance themselves from the party. kicked out or the rnc folks. is the republican party procedure concerned that essentially this white house is going to become a satellite unto itself? >> i think it's h. they're hoping since trump looks at kelly as almost a peer. i think the key word here, unlike reince is the fact that trump didn't really -- i don't really think had much respect for him as he does for kelly. so, maybe we can get something done. but the thing of is is this. if he looked at past administrations, look at bill clinton. it took him about a year and a half before he got his chief of staff groomed down and remember
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when he flew leon -- tipper and al gore got together. it took him about a year and a half. it took jimmy carter two years behave he got his chief of staff right. so i'm hoping i'm hoping what r we're seeing is a good fit. the rnc, we republicans, we need that, because what's happening, joy, is the narrative is being turned around to the chaos and circus at the white house instead of the very important issues that are going on. >> right. the and speaking of those important issues, just a few things taking place while he is up tweeting at 4:00 in the morning his various thoughts you've got iran, iraq and syria, the civil war there of course. isis. you've got the north korea situation with missile tests taking place. all of this is taking place while this sort of circus is in
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town 24 hours a day. the you said in some ways it's probably keeping american people from a lot of bad policy decision. he loves to surround himself with generals, that he might see some sort of national security exercise as a i wa to get the country behind him? >> yeah. i've always been concerned about that. the i think trump is extremely ir rat tick. i think he wants people to be paying attention to him and loving him. i think he will do whatever he thinks it takes which often turns out to be wrong but yeah. it's a dangerous situation. the we have someone who quite frankly i think is out of control, who has literal control over america's nuclear weapons and the ability to cause all kinds of havoc. so far is has been mostly visited on the most vulnerable people in the united states. but his ability to cause havoc
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over seas is significant. i'm hoping 2018 comes along as quick as it can. >> mag comlcolm there are a lot people that are concerned that this is a president who wants sort of the trappings of an authoritarian leader. he was delighted -- able to easily delight him by showing a military parade. he talks favorably about philippines brutal lies people he thinks are dealing drugs. it gives him something. ant the soi something feels athr tarrian. >> i think that reflex of his where saddam hussein, he feels that generals give him that steel in his back and will get things done for him that he chooses to do. he does not want to fit the role of a president of the united states. he wants to be a ceo of a trump
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corporation and he is going to put people behind him that will crack the whip. that being said, when decisions that are -- are could be intensely controversial or even dangerous to the united states, this north korea missile tests being cared out, if donald trump gets in his head he's going to burn that program out of the ground with perhaps a nuclear weapon, well these generals are going to have to be the ones that have to explain what the consequences of that, because his consequence management skills are null. >> is kelly the guy who's going to say yes, sir or don't do it. >> he may have to be the guy that tackles him. >> all right. rosa brooks, jonathan, thank you guys very much. up next, donald trump's solution to the north korea china, insult china. to dig a hole to china. at&t is working with farmers to improve irrigation techniques.
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kim jong-un is dangerous because he's unpredictable and his technology and developing this missile system, which might hit the u.s., the mainland, is advancing. and we don't appear to have a strategy to deal with him. and he's taking vaadvantage of that. >> in response to north korea's second recent test of an int intercontinental missile on friday, the u.s. has flown bombers over south korea in a show of force and conducted another test of his missile defense system in alaska. >> north korean television ran what they said was video on friday. we have not independently verified this video.
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some experts believe the missile could be capable of reaching the u.s. mainland. joining me now is lawrence wilkers wilkerson, and colonel, thank you so much for being here. how much of a threat is north korea of actual conflict with the united states and how much of this is posturing on the part of kim jong-un to try to get attention and get concessions from the world? >> joy, a lot of it is posturing. this is the way all three of the kims have acted z on the international stage. but let me say this. if one wants to watch what ought to be done about north korea, watch the interview between secretary of defense former secretary of doeft defense bill perry. bill perry presents a strategy, presents a plan for dealing with north korea and it's the right one. now he was there on the peninsula in 1994. i was there too.
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we were as close to war with korea has we've been since the korean war. we diffused it by negotiating it. that's what we need to do now. >> what does kim jong-un want? what would be negotiating for? >> bill points it out, clearly. and he is absolutely right. he wants his regime to stay in power. he's not about to do anything to jeopardy dies that. so that means deterrence works but it also means have to sit down and negotiate, and you have to be willing to give something too. the a good example would be we would trade his cessation of ballistic missile testing, he'd stop it if we would stop exercising on the peninsula with the koreans at least for an interim period. these are the things have you to do. >> i take it then you may think it was not wise to do this missile test we just did because the u.s. in addition to that has
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deployed that in south korea to guard against the missile. this is according to news on friday. angering china. moscow and beijing, in a join statement earlier this month called washington to immediately halt the deemployment of that in south korea. do you think the current strategy is wrong? >> it's fine to do that for an interim period, for a short time. each side shows the other side is means business. but then ultimately you've got to sit down and talk and i don't see anybody but the south korean as, god bless them actually thinking about that. the more trummism, if you will on our side. more amateurism and that's going to lead to a catastrophe. there are over 200,000 american citizens in this area alone. half of korean's population is in seoul. we beat north korea but it would
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be a disaster for the south. >> oh, my goodness, you said trump so i have to give you the latest messives from his twitter account just this morning. he tweeted i'm very disappointed in china. our pool ish past leaders have allowed them to make hundreds in trade yet they do nothing with north carolina, ju north korea. what do you make of that. >> this shows donald trump has absolutely no -- sorry. that it was from last night, not this morning. >> no understanding of northeast asia, no understanding of international relations in that area. the nobody wants a unified korea. i'll add that to the united states. china doesn't want a unified korea, so, the way you deal with that is you find out what china wants, you find out what we want, if you're beijing, and you negotiate in good faith with the north koreans to produce that
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condition. if you can't do that, then you' you're marching toward one of the bloodiest conflicts. that's bad. because you've got japan, china, you might have a bigger war than you think you're going to have if you start one on the peninsula, so negotiate. sit down and negotiate. and understand the other side's motivations before you do. the that's out of the kin of possibility for this bunch of amateurs. the. >> is part of the problem too is you have this depleted state department that's not even at full staff. the how are they even able to deal with in? the pakistan stiituation, jerusalem, which should be getting a lot more air time because those clashes in the old city are escalating. how is the state department even handling this without a full staff? >> we're dismantling the state department.
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i think rex tillerson has been given that directive by the president of the united states to in essence dismantle. there is an old near rum called conservation of the enemies. simply stated, don't want anymore than you can handle. look at the line jump, china, russia -- look at the lineup we have and look at the amateurs we have in the white house in order to confront them. and they won't come in ones, they'll come in twos and threes. this amateur hour in the white house is the most dangerous thing america has faced and is going to face it, i guess, for another three and a half years. >> yeah. the trump administration has added a new person to the white house. he loves to surround himself with generals. general kelly. what do you make of this strategy of putting a marine general in that chief of staff position and donald trump sort of pen chant to surround him self with military men. >> i think it's a sign of his
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lack of confidence in himself when he says things like my generals and so forth. i'm really frightened by the aspect of so many military men having this kind of position within the national security decision making process. it's dangerous and it says something about donald trump. it says he does not trust the rest. let me just remind your listeners too. i'm going to stay this flat out. i have a lot of respect pore mcmaster and for kelly and mattis. but let me tell you something. we haven't had a general in the united states army with one exception who's won a war since 1945, so this current crop of generals in the white house is a product of that system in our armed forces. im enot at all confident, as i said i was before, mostly being sort of hopeful, i'm not at all confident that this is a positive development at all. if john kelly doesn't get a
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control on that white house, on trump's tweeting or people like scaramucci, and others who are ban non who are influencing the president, if he doesn't get a handle on that then all he is is an ambitious general and we can take what we want from that. >> whow, sobering words. thank you very much for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> thank you. coming up 1re7investigators are pushing to find out what jarrod kushner's meetings were all about. there's nothing more important to me than my vacation. so when i need to book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want.
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>> up next, jarrod kushner finally spoke to congressional investigators behind closed doors. his message, i did not cloout collude. more on that next. shift without a disaster.
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>> let me be very clear. i did not clooollude with russi.
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nor do i know of anyone else in the campaign who did so. i had no improper contacts. i have not relied on russian funds for my businesses. and i have been fully transparent in providing all requested information. >> this week jarrod kushner was in the house and the senate in sfra separate closed door sessions. including the june 2016 with a russian lawyer who was offering the promise of damaging information on hillary clinton. he admitted not only at that meeting but at four meeting withes russian officials and transition, all of which he had failed to mention in his original clearance application. he claims to not have known the subject matter set up by donald trump jr. because he only partially read the e-mail. the one wonders how he missed the subject line.
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his explanations aren't nearly enough for house democrats who this week continually push to have his security revoked. select dmit congressman, do you find it credible that jared kushner opened an e-mail that said russia clinton private and confideand -- >> good morning, joy i don't think there is any click bait that's more tempting than private and confidential. it was the one that had the app pone nants name in it, clinton, russian, said provide and confidential, but joy, the other part of that statement you alluded to with jarrod kushner, he said the e-mail he did read was an october 30 e-mail ten days before the election. you can imagine how busy he must
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have been then which was eessentially a spam e-mail saying russians had donald trump's tax returns and kushner better pay 52 bit coin otherwise he was going to have to these those exposed. did he not reed tad the other o and the one most people would see as spam? i think we have to test that and right now it doesn't add up. >> last week, my colleague here on his show had on a woman named e-elizabeth spears who used to work with jarrod kushner and asked her if he was the kind of person who would show up to a meeting without knowing what it was about. take a listen. >> find it implausible he would show up to a meeting without knowing it was about. he's a gizy guy, if my experience every meeting we had z was planned and scheduled and he always had an agenda. >> when he showed up with his business he knew what they were about. >> yeah.
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i don't find it vcredible. >> given you also had the campaign chairman paul manafort as well as jarrod kushner and donald trump junior, it doesn't seem anyone is sort of buying that explanation. can you tell us what have you been able to glean about what jarrod kushner's role in the campaign was at that point? what was he actually doing for the campaign? >> joy, i actually found jared kushner to be a very bright worldly thorough bred type individual who was quite meticulous in his role on the campaign, and actually if you read his statement, he also, if you belief him, was in charge of everything from scheduling to fund-raising, to the digital operations, so i actually take him at his word and believe those around him that he was quite involved in the campaign. he wasn't a novice. he wasn't way in over his head. he brought a different experience. certainly didn't have political experience but brought a different experience to the campaign. it's just hard to imagine that in june, right before the
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president goes out and says that there's going to be a new damaging information about hillary clinton, that this meeting somehow was not seen or observed by jarrod curb mer wku he read the e-mail. >> the digital piece i find interesting because that would be the operation sort of cooperate rating and spreading memes about hillary clinton and getting on line sort of adherence to new information. do you find it interesting to sort of explore whether that digital operation was deceiving and disseminating some of the information coming in through that's russian hacks? >> it's too early to tell. part of the investigation is to understand what data was extracted from the d nc. through social media, through fake news, through patrols that t trolls, through the state brod casting. whether there was link betweenle
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trump campaign and the russians who were hacking. we know roger stone for example was receiving this information from -- he was in contact with them about what would be coming and he was -- it's our intelligence community was a russian caughtout. we want to understand was it a coordinated effort to work with the russians? >> let's go to jared kushner's disclosure about the assets. he made a revised filing in which he revealed lots of assets he forgot about. the detailed more than 70 assets his attorney said he inadvertently left out. why uz did he seem to be not -- seems to have such a difficulty remembering meetings, filling out forms and remembering what assets he has? >> this seems to be the pattern
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around all things or conflicts of interest the trump family has, which is to deny they ever ex existed and only one confroptded with them by overwhelming evidence or the press they acknowledge them and try to down play them. then they put them forward in filings that are required by the government. i also want to say i see the president going to a very dangerous place when it comes to russia. i think at the june 9 e-mail took this cons stell lation of contacts and put them in better perspective for us. and the president now has gone from no russia, no collusion to essentially that's politics. that's what happens in campaigns. i think that's because the evidence is so overwhelming they were willing to work with the russians and that's why they're trying to deflect, distract and not disclose. >> all right. who else would you like to talk to? >> don junior, certainly paul
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man a for manafort, general flynn, individuals of high interest. we just want to understand understand ---whether it was the government, or business individuals and oelbsh sh -- wh they coincidences, or was it a convergence of deep personal political financial relationships that, woulded with russian as they tried to undermine our democracy. we're not there yet. it's too early to tell but are making progress. i will credit mike conknowway. and that's a credit i think to this committee being back on track. >> all right. i want to just ask you before i let you go here, to get your comment on the sort of news of the day, general kelly coming in as chief of staff to donald trump. what do you make of donald trump surrounding himself with so many generals? >> well, joy, we're rooting for general kelly because the president is unfocused. i hope that general kelly will
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explain to mr. trump the words yalta, casablanca, opportunities where american leadership were on display working with allies to confront the greatest crisis in the world which was world war ii. we are approaching a very big crisis with north korea. we need him to start stitching together allies. >> thank you very much. >> my pleasure. >>. all right coming up in the next hour, the media's obsession with anthony scaramucci and your moment of maxine. more after the break. hi. oh, hi!
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. at 31 years old, ez ra coen -- so powell that h.r. mcmaster, head, cannot fire him. the mystery of the untouchable mr. co-hen next.
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>> just six months his administration has still seen lots of pink slips. national slips. h.r. mcmaster fired his department's top middle east adviser thursday, one of several staffers ousted by his predecessor michael flynn that mcmaster has shown the door. one is more durable, was the nick, 30-year-old senior director for intelligence programs was on mcmaster's list but didn't happen because donald trump told him that he was staying put. question of course is why. rosie gray, white house correspondent tackled this in herpes the man mcmaster couldn't fire, and she joins me now. thank you very much. i enjoyed reading your piece. this is a question of mine as well. michael flynn tur fd on them for lying about his contacts with
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russia, that's the official reason he was fired. how is it one of his chief deputies ezra cohen-watnick is there? >> he was able to form relationships with powerful allies in the west wing. people that intervened to save his job were jared kushner and steve bannon and they appealed to the president who told mcmaster he's staying. >> so we know that he has attempted to help donald trump out when it comes to russia gate affair. they helped give devon nunez reports that they tried to use to allege this unmasking was illegal, there were laws broken and supposedly wire trapping in trump tower. one of the people that did that was ezra cohen was the nick, the other was michael ellis. is there any repercussion for him doing that? >> i would say part of why i did this piece was trying to sort of
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unwind the very murky complicated unmasking story. i still think it is not 100% crystal clear what cohen-watnick's role was. one said that basically he was asked to do routine review of procedures, uncovered this, passed it off to someone in the council's office and that was it. in terms of repercussions for what happened, clearly there haven't been any because he's still in his same job. >> young guy, 31 years old, senior director fof intelligence programs, used to be the defense intelligence agency with michael flynn. what are his qualifications from the job. you have a quote in your piece in which you spoke to someone who said i didn't know ezra from adam, also spoke with a white house colleague who has known him for years, described him as someone that seemed a natural choice for the job in five to ten years, but not now. what are his qualifications?
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>> basically cohen-watnick served in the d.a. most of his career, not a very long career so far. had one sort of overseas tour in afghanistan that did not go particularly well according to my reporting, so yeah, a lot of people in the intelligence community were surprised to see someone of his age and experience level picked for what's a very important job, liaison between the white house and the intelligence community. in terms of his qualifications, everyone that works with him that i spoke to said he is very smart, very assertive, he knows what he is talking about. i think it rubbed people in other intelligence agencies the wrong way to have to work with him. >> yeah. one of the intriguing things about your piece was this thing about no one wanting to talk about ezra cohen-watnick. one thing is you don't talk to him. some profess not to know him,
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ask why would anyone want to write about him, others refuse to discuss him. he said i won't talk to any journalist about ezra, and he knows him well. is it one of your hit pieces asked bannon. why is it people are reticent to talk about him? >> i found people to be unusually protective of cohen-watnick. to tell you the truth, i don't believe i completely answer why that's the case, but there's unusual level of secrecy surrounding him, he is an intelligence official, they tend to operate in a more secretive manner. i think the reticence on the part of many people to talk about him struck me as unusual, yeah. >> do you get the sense he's still in touch with michael flynn? >> i do not know the answer to that question. >> yeah. what was the relationship between the two men, how far does it go back, is he somebody that knew michael flynn in your reporting before i got to the dia with him?
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>> so a lot of people i spoke with were under the impression he had known flynn at dia. one person with close knowledge of how this happened said that in fact they didn't meet until last year during the campaign at a coffee meeting that was arranged by michael adean's wife barbara. ezra group up outside washington. so that is -- it appears that actually the relationship might date back to, you know, more recently than people seem to think. >> and to be quite blunt about it, did you speak with anyone in the intelligence community that's concerned about his relationship with michael flynn and that it could be on-going, given what michael flynn has been up to in terms of contacts with russians, with russian officials. >> i see what you're asking. in terms of the people i spoke with who are intelligence people for this story, i wouldn't say that specific concern was necessarily raise. i think the concern that some people raised was that they were
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worried about someone who seemed to be a sort of more partisan and political choice chosen for his loyalty to one person in this very important job. >> and i guess that's the point. if his loyalty was specifically to michael flynn, then who is it that's protecting him in his job now, were you able to determine that? >> like i said, jared kushner and steve bannon intervened to save his job. in terms of why he's still there, despite the fact that mcmaster has been obviously able to fire other people he wanted to fire, you know, the fact of the matter is there was attempt to fire him, it wasn't successful, and once something like that happens, the president himself sort of inter convenience convenients to save your job, you become unfireable. >> go ahead. >> go ahead. >> i was going to say you now have michael kelly coming in, these guys are allies, did you get any sense, this is after the story came out obviously, that
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kelly might be able to help mcmaster make the decisions he wants to make about his own staff? >> well, i have been talking to people about what kelly might mean for mcmaster in the last day or so, and basically there are two schools of thought. one school of thought is this will empower mcmaster, the generals will be able to work together, will be good for mcmaster. the other school of thought is that trump who has clashed with mcmaster, had tension with him, may see ouster of raieince pries part of a larger organization that might make it easier to disempower mcmaster. i am not sure what the kelly hire will mean. >> we'll keep following your reporting. great piece. thank you very much. up next, anthony the mooch, scaramucci, proving to be quite the shiny object for the media. and trump probably liked that just fine. more "am joy" after the break.
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welcome back to "am joy." we are live in los angeles where we've come to participate in politicon, the ultimate convention for political junkies. i was hoping one of the headliners, anthony the mooch scaramucci would drop by my panel discussion on why facts still matter. even if the administration could use a bit of help in that area. unfortunately the mooch decided to bail. he cancelled his scheduled appearance at politicon. organizers responded at least now we don't have to worry about violating any obscenity laws. his 2017 interview he used vulgar language to describe colleagues, now former white house chief of staff reince priebus, and steve bannon who according to scaramucci is a con torsionist. figure that out. the interview quickly became an instant obsession with the media
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which tried to clean up the language as vice news pointed out. >> anthony scaramucci went off. >> in a profanity filled interview. talking f bombs. >> i can't read all the words. >> we can at least give you an idea. >> scaramucci wanted to. >> fing kill all the leakers. >> the marathon mooch coverage came the same day the senate was set to vote on a health care bill. at one point, chris murphy tweeted hey table news, there's breaking news effecting millions of americans. stop covering scaramucci for a sec. every second talking about the mooch is spent talking about russia's attempt to disrupt our democracy, probably suits him and his boss just fine. i'm going to go to you first,
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claire, our newby. what did you think of this with scaramucci, it dlietd the media that they couldn't quote him. >> he's good-looking, tinted glasses, he's amusing. he also makes headlines. i don't know if he intended all those expletives to hit the media air waves when he had that interview with "the new yorker" but he is straight from central casting communications director which i am sure donald trump is happy about. seems to have a lot of goodwill in the press, people seem to like him. page six had a great story about who is behind the man behind the man in the headlines, getting divorced from his wife, because he is apparently in love with donald trump, and quite a few intriguing bits of information about his italian heritage and how he built himself up from nothing, and now he's part of
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the hedge fund set, worth 200 million, and wants to be in the spotlight so to speak, and he's got the job he's been waiting quite some time to get. he sold his company to be able to join the white house, had to sit around quite awhile until he got the job that he wanted. i don't know if you allow me to show "new york post" from friday. >> please do. >> we have this cover. >> survivor. >> survivor. who's out next? we'll see this week. but the white house has become a reality show and it's hard to know, you have to ask yourself, is mark burnett behind the scenes here? is it big brother, survivor, the real world with mtv, hard to say these days. >> hard to say. rob, you know, here we are in your town here in l.a. there's a sense in which the media is entertained by scaramucci. >> yes. >> he is sort of a reality show. but is that allowing the media
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to get away from covering sort of the real thing or walk and chew gum and read his expletive deleted tweets. >> i can tell you that robert mueller can. if we're not talking about it, he's doing what he needs to do. this is a freight train that's moving down the track and nobody is going to stop it. somebody said scaramucci looks like an extra on the set of "wolf of wall street" who got fired because he kept talking to leo dicaprio so much. >> and cursing. his divorce is in the news. gabe sherman, he is sort of creating drama around himself, which donald trump may like it now, loved his quotes because he wanted reince priebus out, too, but he hates being upstaged. at some point does the mooch's act get on donald trump's nerves? >> that's a classic pen chant, anybody will see this happened
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to steve bannon when he was on the cover of "time" magazine, he likes larger than life personalities and likes influencing his advisers, the problem is when they outshine him and the media focuses too much on them. i'll go back to something you said, joy, i agree. donald trump's advisers are not the story. i think there's a danger when he surrounds himself with these cartoonish characters that we focus on them in the media and not the larger policy questions which this week we should point out that the republicans tried to dismantle one-sixth of the economy with their health care bill. so while these characters and profanity laced rants are great copy, i think they should not be the "a" story and what the media focuses on. >> malcolm, you have the idea that the communications director should try to get the white house on the same page, speaking with one voice on the issues that trump cares about, and to rob's points the thing he is obsessed about is the russian
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investigation. scares him the most. listen to anthony scaramucci navigating that issue on the bbc i believe last week. take a look. or this week. >> it is happening now, which i love, the elite and the media establishment that want to hit the president on russia every day, they're recognizing there's nothing to the russian story. >> what, the business side, politics side or inheritance side, what part of donald trump. many don't understand that. >> so many things about the president. how about the pizza. >> everyone eats pizza and cheese burgers. >> you're coming across a little elitist. >> what you just saw there is joe pesh ee in "good fellas." that's who this character is, the guy doing whatever the mafia boss says, wants to be the made man, wants to be in love with all of the fathers of the mob scene, and he is going to say and do anything that makes the
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boss happy. with this russia investigation, the first thing he's going to have to do is get a lawyer because through exposure in the white house, all the discussions that will happen about russia, if he comes into the scheme or whatever it is, he, too, will be taken under mueller's investigatory eye, and he will have to explain that. the question is, will he be able to take the heat, right? is he going to walk in an empty room with plastic on the floor, is he going to go down along with trump. he wants to play this role of the guy who's making jokes in the italian restaurant, he can play it, but this is government and this is government that fully intends to get to the bottom of this. >> and good question, claire, if you go into the trump white house, you have to be prepared to lawyer up and afford it. we learned that the rnc is fund-raising, some of that money is going to donald trump's defense, but people he hires, they're on their own to pay for
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their attorneys. is that why we see donald trump, is he tapping people with wealth because he likes to be around rich people or is he tapping people who can afford a criminal defense attorney to be on call. >> that's a really great question. i think if you have wealth and you have this automatic confidence in yourself and confidence in delivering a message and doing the president's bidding, and also, you know, trump is about to talk about tax reform and many like the idea, it is not surprising he would want lots of people that are very wealthy on his team. i doubt really it's about being able to afford legal defense, but an interesting point. >> and rob, it is sort of entertaining but sort of disturbing, donald trump seems to be constructing an authoritarian fan at that see land for himself, generals everywhere, he is surrounded by billionaires, they make policy
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that essentially creates a fut list system, no medicaid, you don't need a mandate if you're rich. is it frightening? >> you know what i think he's doing, he's trying to recreate for himself the world he came out of in new york real estate. he is putting people around him that he feels comfortable with. and things that he was able to get away with in new york real estate, and shady dealings, the bankruptcy, whatever money laundering happened behind the scenes, that's fine, all well and good, he can escape all those things, put his name on stuff. but now he's in a federal investigation. robert mueller doesn't care about any of that stuff. this is real stuff now. i don't care who he surrounds himself with, scaramucci said it himself, a fish stinks from the head. this guy is stinking right now,
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i don't care who lawyers up and who gets in there, it's not going to matter, because there's the truth and that will come out and unfortunately for donald trump it's not going to be, as malcolm says, won't be pretty. >> donald trump throughout his life whenever he has gotten in a jam, when he had a massive bankruptcy, when his divorces, everything, he turned to the new york tabloid press as a way to agrandize himself. i'll ask you and claire, is this an attempt to sort of create and dazzle the new york tabloid press, to dazzle "new york times" and to sort of rely on the back stop of new york media to change the narrative of his presidency? >> well, if it is, it's not working and i think this is actually some of the lesser covered news of the week is that claire's big boss, rupert murdoch, there has been growing daylight between rupert murdoch and donald trump. we saw "the wall street journal
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editorial page come down very hard on trump for the shakeup in the white house, saying yeah, you can fire as many people as you want, but the real problem is you. i think from my sources in and around fox world and murdock world, there's a growing frustration that trump is consumed and obsessed with twitter, but not getting his agenda through washington. i think if trump is going to try to create scandal and headlines to distract, it's not going to work. >> claire, it is interesting to see that new cover, that's a cover you wouldn't be surprised to see a few months ago, but "new york post" has been more reliably pro-trump. is there a sense on the editorial side, not newsroom side, there may be exhaustion with trump in murdock world? >> all i can speak to is what i read in my own paper and i think part of what gabe says is true, that there has been a lot more critical stories of donald trump in the paper recently and with
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good reason. michael goodwin in the editorial column described this past week as the worst week for trump yet and that he's in a box. there are problem after problem just piling up, and the russian investigation, whether jeff sessions will be forced to resign or will resign of his own volition, i mean, problems just go on and on. as a citizen, i wonder when are we getting back to the business of learning about what's happening in the country and how the electoral process is working, how laws are being made. it's depressing that this just continues with six months in, you would imagine it would have calmed down by now. and we're still in a position where this circus gets more and more crazy every week. >> surprisingly enough, this is something that's been -- bob vander plat, big evangelical
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leader, donald trump first attacked because he supported ted cruz, then he tweeted this, silence equals assent. potus must demand higher standards. >> you're seeing erosion, not just with the conservative press but you're starting to see conservatives in the house and senate start to pull away. they have never respected donald trump and now they don't fear him any more. you don't see the fear. once you have lack of respect and lack of fear, you're going to see people moving at their own pace and ignoring it. to say trump has a strategy of distracting, there's no strategy here. this is a man who's totally consumed with himself and self preservation. he doesn't care about oh, i'm a smart guy, i'll do this for this to happen. it's all about self
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agrandizement, making himself feel better. that's what he's doing. it is not like i'll do this, therefore i can get this done. it is not that smart. there's just no strategy. >> getting an amen from malcolm. >> scaramucci, possibly one of his big problems now is that he is going to be incidentally exposed to donald trump and his world, which means now all of his finances are going to come under the exact same electron microscope of the mueller investigation. it doesn't matter if it had nothing to do with russia. crimes that are going to be found, whether they're incidental or accidental, they're going to be exposed. this investigation which is going to be the single greatest investigation in the history of the united states is going to rip apart the financial aspects of every person in that white house to determine if any of them were agents of a foreign intelligence agency. >> you've been warned, donald trump, you cannot distract with
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the mooch. you'll all be back. great panel. up next, right wing messenger taking over your local news. stay with us. so being cool com. hmm. i can't decide if this place is swag or bling. it's pretzels. word. ladies, you know when you switch, you get my bomb-diggity discounts automatically. ♪ no duh, right? [ chuckles ] sir, you forgot -- keep it. you're gonna need it when i make it precipitate. what, what? what? (vo) living with ammonia odor? not a pretty picture. (vo) luckily, tidy cats lightweight with new ammonia blocker tackles tough odor, even ammonia. so long stankface! (vo) ammonia like that? there's a tidy cats for that. when this bell rings... starts a chain reaction... ...that's heard throughout the connected business world.
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xfinity. the future of awesome. noi anthony personally. he is a good friend. he is impassioned and direct. has a high level of respect for media, the bottom line is this. there's not always agreement between the white house and government. these changes signal there will be a better working relationship between the white house and press. >> that was former trump campaign spokesman boris epstein
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in his new role as chief political analyst for the broadcast group. sin claire, owned by a wealthy republican donor, largest broadcast group in the country. 3.9 purchase of tribute media could project the proadministration rhetoric to 70% of american households. in fact, sin claire affiliates are required to run those segments at least nine time per week. while one right wing media company is expanding its power to defend donald trump, breitbart is now doing its best to protect a new victim of trump's bullying. attorney general jeff sessions, a man that embodies the movement that elected donald trump president. joining me, eric boulder, gauge sherman, claire atkinson. this was interesting, fernand. these bottom line with boris
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pieces, everything is fine, anthony scaramucci is amazing, the media will now have a great relationship with donald trump, it is sort of comical but a little unnerving. what do you think? >> it is not comical, joy. this is not the sinclair broadcasting group, it is sinister broadcasting group. i don't think it is coincidence, a russian accented english speaking american is the head of this network doing this propaganda because that's what it is. what's next, the moscow minute with vladimir putin? you know what else, joy, this is also done in russia where there is no free media. they're slowly, methodical implementing this. not just in sinclaire, recently at the end of june 105 fm is broadcasting russian state sputnik propaganda. this madness isn't just fox news on steroids, it is the literal definition of fake news and i
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think we need to call sin claire broadcasting out for what it is. this is fascism. this is happening, it's happening now, and joy, i urge my fellow citizens watching this to wake up to what is happening in our country. fascism is happening in our country as we speak in real time. >> eric, these stations are required to run these, which are just essentially white house propaganda, telling people in local news, not cable news, this is your local broadcast, local news where you have boris saying everything is fine, russia is not a problem. this is not what americans are accustomed to seeing except to propaganda days going back to world war ii. it is odd. donations to "new york times," the guy that owns sin claire and efforts to buy sin claire broadcasting, says some of their giving, won of the founders, contributed to a lot of
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political campaign, some giving has been to democrats for local and state races, but a lot to republican causes, mitt romney fund-raising committee in 2012. these are republican activist donors that now own teeny stations that cover 70% of the country. >> this is complete capitulation from journalism to propaganda. what's dangerous is you're seeing this structure for propaganda in the future. we're obsessed with the imploding trump white house, but down the line we have permanent propaganda infrastructure no matter who is going to be the next president, no matter who is going to control congress and things like that. so this is very dangerous. polling data suggests people trust local news in an odd way more than national news because a large segment of the population is trained to be skeptical.
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it is biased, might be partisan. people accept what comes over local news, it is what it is, and now we're seeing these force carried centralized right wing pro-trump editorials on a daily basis. sin claire has a history of this. go back to 2004, they refused their abc affiliates to air quote night line "the night ted koppel read the names of u.s. soldiers in iraq." they declared it was unamerican, anti-bush. six months before the election, aired this john kerry hit piece about his service in vietnam. they kind of receded in obama years in terms of overt partisanship, but as with so many instances, trump brings out the worst in everybody. he clearly brought out the worst in sin claire. they're going off the rails, straight up and down propaganda for local news. that fits the last piece of the puzzle. right wing media had fox news
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ahead, they have the internet, now grabbing local news. >> gabe sherman, during the campaign there was talk and rumors there was a deal cut between jared kushner and the sin clai sinclair broadcast group for positive coverage. he said during the campaign inaugural and white house, no sinclair station interview was seen as a layup. this is a serious journalist organization with serious journalists. >> jared kushner, those remarks were made in a speech. i think what he was talking about was that the trump campaign made a deliberate decision to give access to sinclair affiliates in local markets, especially in swing states. yes, there was not explicit quid pro quo.
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the fact that a presidential candidate would talk to a local news outlet, the power of disparity between those two is such that the local anchor and local reporter would be grateful to get such a high profile interview and therefore it's not a hard hitting forum the way it would be in a national interview. i think what the trump campaign did and what jared kushner was alluding to was a strategic decision to use sinclair because it would be a friendly forum to go into swing states and talk to local affiliates and get their message out there. >> claire, you were for a newspaper owned by rupert murdock, international businesses, media businesses all over the world. you pointed out there's critical coverage of donald trump in the post. what do you make of this idea of creating sort of canned pro-administration, canned pieces that are required to be aired in a local broadcast market. have you ever heard of such a
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thing in the united states? >> i haven't. i did watch a couple of segments of boris, bottom line, and they seemed meticulous to me. i'm sure the audience is good at filtering out garbage as well. if you look to see sinclair move from this fringe company that owns local tv stations to a major media force, once the tribune deal closes, that's expected the next couple months, once they get sec approval, we should look at wgn, the station they will acquire. currently a cable station, kind of repeats of entertainment shows. i would expect and i heard from sources they want to turn into a big general entertainment network. we heard reports that they talked to bill o'reilly, to sean hannity, i don't know, any of those talks come to anything, but it is clear that sinclair wants to move from the fringes to a big major mainstream media organization, and we'll see what comes with it.
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>> and fernand, we can expect that with lack of pro-trump propaganda. >> absolutely. i go back to the point earlier, joy i said on this broadcast before, donald trump's presidency is a cancer on this nation. with moves like this with sinclair, we see that cancer metastasizing, joy, in all aspects. think of what happened in the last 72 hours. you've had a president of the united states call for national law enforcement to engage in greater degrees of police brutality. yesterday florida turned over voter rolls to this or wellian trump voter commission, in spite of the fact there's zero evidence of voter frau fraud. i said it earlier, i'll say it again. it sounds alarmist, but it's true. this is fascism happening in our country. what can people do about it. i would suggest those that work at sinclair that are patriotic americans resign. if you're a broadcaster, don't put any broadcasting or advertising revenue on there,
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and if you're a viewer, never watch a sinclair station again because it is propaganda. >> do you see any effort out there to push back against what they're doing? >> yeah. i interviewed sinclair employees a decade ago when they were doing the john kerry stuff, they were humiliated, couldn't believe what was happening. embarrassed to work for sinclair. my guess is they're all gone. they're notorious for cost cutting. here's an example why this is important. when greg gianforte body slammed a reporter on the eve of election, every organization ran audio of the confrontation that was chilling. the sinclair affiliate in montana would not air the audio, claim it couldn't be verified. the next day they were telling viewers in montana it was kind of nobody really knew what happened, it was very confusing. he was arrested for assault. there was nothing confusing about this. this was a specific, frightening
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example of how local news on the eve of a special election can change things. >> pretty scary stuff. thank you very much. appreciate it. coming up. your moment. mom, i have to tell you something. dad, one second i was driving and then the next... they just didn't stop and then... i'm really sorry. i wrecked the subaru. i wrecked it. you're ok. that's all that matters. (vo) a lifetime commitment to getting them home safely.
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we have much more "am joy" coming up, a special moment with maxine waters. and rob ryaner discusses his new film "lbj." you america's number one shave at lower prices every day. putting money back in the pockets of millions of americans. as one of those workers, i'm proud to bring you gillette quality for less, because nobody can beat the men and women of gillette. gillette - the best a man can get. whuuuuuat?rtgage offer from the bank today. you never just get one offer. go to and shop multiple loan offers for free! free?
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your service to california, being a resident of california, i appreciate everything you've done in the community there. >> i don't want to take my time. >> i appreciate the opportunity to meet. >> you're claiming my time. >> you're claiming my time you're claiming my time. >> the time belongs to the gentle lady from california. >> let me just say to you thank
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you for your compliments about how great i am, but i don't want to waste my time on me. >> she only has to tell us one time because here on "am joy" we give her all the time she needs, representative from california's great 34th district. >> hello, welcome. >> i love being in your town. isn't it amazing how one turn of phrase can take over the entire internet. >> i cannot believe it, we went viral. i know it was trending. just saying, reclaiming my time. >> to get to the substantive issue, you sent a letter to steve man uchian, asking for copies of pertinent financial records to the committee that may shed light on president trump's financial transactions with business ties to russia and family and associates. you're trying to ask him and he was complimenting you instead of
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answering. >> he was filibustering, taking up my time. you're right. i want to know about his responsibility. they have the responsibility for collecting, analyzing all of the data that comes in from all of the financial institutions, banks, et cetera, because they have the responsibility to determine whether or not there's money laundering going on, or when they see suspicion, banks send information, i want to know has he seen anything, and if he does see it, what does he do with it. does he turn it over to mueller or hold it. i never got an answer to that question. >> do you believe the treasury secretary is stonewalling the committee? >> absolutely, he stone walled me, at least he tried to. i had to say over and over, reclaiming my time. he came in there determined that he was going to use up the time so he didn't have to answer any serious questions that he did not want to answer. >> how close do you think or do you have a window into how close the official investigation, mueller investigation is getting
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to actual potential for corruption, money based corruption, financial based corruption within the trump inner circle, whether or not it is related to russia gate. >> we don't actually know how much he has accomplished. we believe, most of us do, we think he is serious, that he has hired the correct people, the people that are experts in money laundering, and financial transactions, we don't know exactly where he is, but we want him to stay. we don't want trump to go around messing with them, trying to find a way to fire him as he's doing. we want him to do the work, we think he will connect the dots. >> what do you think would happen in congress, including from your colleagues on the other side of the aisle if donald trump were to find a way to fire rod rosenstein, and elevate someone who would fire mueller. >> i think there would be a revolt. i think the republicans even can't stand for that and they won't stand for that, and we know he's thinking about and trying to come up with ways to
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get a new attorney general. the senate told him we're not confirming anybody. he's even thinking about how to use what's known as recess appointment, but the senate is saying we will block that also. so i think certainly democrats are very serious about not being able to do this, but republicans increasingly understand that he steps over the line when he tries to fire mueller. even jeff sessions is saying you better not touch him. i think they're getting serious. >> you sent a couple of tweets this morning. this one was provocative that had to do with something donald trump said last week. freddie gray's family wants to know if fers protect his head when he is thrown in the back of a paddy wagon. this referenced shocking things he said in front of suffolk county police that even the sufficient objecting police department had to say wait a minute, we're not for roughing people up and throwing them into the back of a van, which for a lot of usury called what
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happened to freddie gray. >> absolutely. >> how shocked were you? >> i am shocked. it is totally irresponsible for the president of the united states to encourage violence by the people who are hired to protect and serve us. they didn't really like that. it's very uncomfortable for these groups, including the boy scouts and others, to have him say things they think they're supposed to respond to, but they did correct that image, that went out. here we are, experienced police violence, had unarmed young men, black men for the most part killed and shot by the police. i know many of the police jurisdictions are trying to overcome that image, but some of them are bad apples and should not be encouraged. donald trump did this during his campaign. he encouraged people to beat up on folks who protested his campaign operations, so i'm not surprised, but again totally
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irresponsible. >> absolutely. you had another tweet this morning that said mike pence is somewhere planning inauguration. priebus and spicer will lead the transition. do you think your republican colleagues would impeach donald trump? >> i sincerely believe that the republicans in the house think they're more patriotic than anybody else, and i challenge that patriotism. will you stand up for your country or are you going to give your career to protecting the president of the united states no matter what. in the final analysis, i do think he can step over the line. there are many lines he could step over. it is attempting to obstruct justice in a profound whether, whether or not mueller is able to connect those dots to show that there's been money laundering, that there was collusion, and that it's all
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about lifting those sanctions and drilling into the arctic with putin. >> absolutely. in the final minute we have with you, talk about the democrats for a moment. they're fielding lots of candidates. you're seeing more challengers stepping forward. how is the party doing in terms of taking advantage of this moment. we have a chart that shows how many democrats are running for office in 2017 versus 2015. you can see it there on the left. lots and lots of blue. how are the democrats doing? >> we're doing fine, and you know we adopted a different way of dealing with our elections and saying let's not confine it to a few states, let's go after all of them, and also we're going into republican areas where we have democrats who have never been touched because of the way consultants guide campaigns to go after those that voted recently in the last few elections and those democrats in republicans areas, so we're changing the way we do campaigning. i think people are energized, they want to get involved ab run
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for office, and we're going to be there. >> maxine waters, challenging the republicans and patriotism, creating viral memes every time. we love having you on. coming up top of the hour, new reaction to donald trump's new white house chief of staff. up next, rob reiner is coming back to talk about his great new movie "lbj." stay with us. ♪ when heartburn hits fight back fast with new tums chewy bites. fast relief in every bite. crunchy outside. chewy inside.
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"how to win at business." step one: point decisively with the arm of your glasses. abracadabra. the stage is yours. step two: choose la quinta. the only hotel where you can redeem loyalty points for a free night-instantly and win at business. in lyndon johnson's first six months, he signed a massive income tax cut, declared war on poverty, and introduced legislation to establish the job corp and other economic programs. a bill that ultimately passed thanks to sustained lobbying efforts. that was dwarfed by accomplishments of the current president. a new film by legendary director rob reiner follows his rise to
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it will never become law. >> what are we waiting for? >> a new leader has emerged. >> america has a southern president. >> you don't waste any time, do you lyndon. >> excuse me? >> a man of great ideas. the country needs a man who can deliver. on saturday i was on a panel with the great rob reiner where we spoke about his new film lbj, sometimes contentious with the kennedys and rise to the
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presidency after the assassination of jfk. it's an amazing film. >> thank you, joyce. >> i have to say, i have absolute faith in you as a director. when i heard woody harrelson as lbj i thought woody harrelson? he's a great actor. how did you get him to do such a spot on portrayal? >> that is woody. he is a brilliant, brilliant actor. it took two hours every day. he would sit in the chair and put on little ear wicks and basically became the guy. one of the more brilliant performances i've seen. if you like woody, you're going to see something you've never seen before. >> i agree. i think a lot of nominations. >> deserves it. >> we talk about this a little bit yesterday on the panel.
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you get this sense of this guy who is, in a lot of ways, a vulgar man, the way that he speaks and the things that he does, and an insecure man, much like our current president but fundamental fundamentally cares about policy. how can they be so similar in those characteristics and so different? >> he is a very complex character. that's what we tried to portray in the film, to show that along with this toughness, this bull in the china shop, he was also very insecure, worried about people loving him, not loving him. but that narcissism, which every president needs -- you have to be a norsiccist to want that job, to be the leader of the free world. but you also hope that it is connected with a passion and a drive to help people and to want to do something and have an
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ideology about the kinds of policies you want to put in place. the difference between lyndon johnson and donald trump is night and day. >> yeah. >> lyndon johnson really cared about certain things. if you looked what he did in a very short period of time. he passed the civil rights act, the voting rights act, medicare, medicaid, head start. i mean, all these were things he cared deeply about. and he did what it took to get those things done. donald trump is somebody who doesn't care about anybody but himself. and that's the difference. >> you look at that health care vote and the indifference, almost, of donald trump as to what was in the bill. you see in this film the herculean task, the minutia, ka jo cajoling of people. he was deeply involved. >> not only was he deeply involved, he was brilliant at
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it. he understood how government works, how the congress and the senate worked. he understood that in order to get something big like that passed -- we're talking about health care -- you need both sides. he had republicans -- there were a lot of democrats he lost. the southern democrats were gone when he tried to pass civil rights legislation. he needed the republicans. when john mccain took the floor the other night, he said something very heroic, number one, but also absolutely true. you have to go back to regular order. whenever you want to do anything big you need both sides to come together and work together. and that's the only way big legislation gets done. johnson knew that. that's why he was successful. >> the sort of real fascination with lyndon johnson, a southern man who grew up in a southern, racist environment. he managed to be the one guy who didn't vote for the all or
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nothing, 19 of them to reject integration. how was he able to stay so friendly with thighs southern senators and stand so far apart from them on race? especially in the film when you talk about race. >> he, at the core, was a magnificent legislator. again, did he have the idea -- he was raised in west texas. he came from poverty, understood poverty. that meant something to him. and he also knew what he needed to do. there's a scene in the movie where he says i'm the only one that can speak kennedy and southern. and he knew what he needed to say to richard russell and what he needed to say to hubert humphrey. and he saidd it in a way that he built consensus. >> what do you want people to take from this? >> to understand lyndon johnson.
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when i was growing up, i hated him. i was of draft age and was against the war. i learned as i went into politics, public policy and government that what he did was monumental. the second thing i wanted people to see is what a real president does. >> yes. >> you know, hopefully there's a young generation that only sees this president. that's not the way presidencies work. lyndon johnson, you'll see a different president. >> the film is amazing. that is our show for the day. join us next week. i'll be filling in for rachel maddow tomorrow night at 9:00 pm. more news at the top of the hour. world. at&t network security helps protect business, from the largest financial markets to the smallest transactions, by sensing cyber-attacks in near real time and automatically deploying countermeasures.
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