tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC September 5, 2017 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
>> they're really young adults. i have a love for these people and hopefully, now congress will be able to help them and do it properly. we have no choice. we have to be able to do something. and i think it will work out very well. and long term, it will be the right solution. >> former president barack obama responded dramatically. he said this is about basic decency. reaction to the annount from the white house, and now the question is, what will coming? it will pass a bill saving those who are brought here in their youth?
for more on this. i'm joined by senator al franken of minnesota. thank you and changes on your book. let's get to this. it seems like trump is thrown a hot potato. he didn't want to say i'll give them chance. by their parents. i'm going to let them stay and not be prosecuted. he is saying, let congress do it. >> first of all, the executive order that president obama gave on this was actually lawful. president reagan did a similar thing, george w. bush did a similar order so that's bogus. i guess he was doing it to appeal to his base which is really the only people who are for getting rid of daca. it is 2-1 the american people are for it. they know these are people who came to america as children. their parents brought them here.
probably in most cases, america is the only country they know. and i think everything that former president obama said is absolutely true. >> if all of that is true and it is a legitimate law, why didn't congress just pass it? >> well, i hope we can. i don't know if it will be tomorrow. we have to get the votes. >> is it hard to get 50 votes for daca? >> i think we'll be able to do and it it depends on what bill we pass. i know that senator durbin has been the leader. >> can we attach to it some bill and move it? >> well -- >> i have an old memory of how things used to be done on the hill. i don't know why it is so hard to do something everybody thinks is the decent thing to do. >> we have a lot of republicans. >> if they vote against this,
you have it. the moderates finished. charlie dent won't vote against. this all the suburban republicans would not want to be known as the bad guy on this baby. >> i think we are going to finds the votes for this. i hope we do it soon so those people don't have to live in this kind of peril. >> i think you could be president someday. i think you have the wit and the brain to do it what would you do with north korea right now? i don't think it is all trump's fault. >> that's why i don't want to be president. >> apparently, he says he's blown up, he's exploded a hydrogen bomb. it took soviets a number of years to get that. >> there are no good options with north korea. they have conventional weapons, artillery, pointed at seoul. there are 20 million people living in seoul.
we have 28,000 troops there. there will be millions killed immediately if we took some kind of military action. >> if we did a surgical strike and hit them right on the nose. didn't kill anybody else. they would launch, right in. >> and kim jong-un cares only about himself. this is the point. we're dealing with someone here who we don't know his entire mental state. the worst thing we can do is create a miscalculation. and i think that's why we have, that's why president trump's rhetoric, i think, has been very dangerous. look. we're in the u.n. trying to get energy sanctions against them. china needs to cooperate. >> is he hard to blame? >> who? >> president trump? >> for this crisis. >> i think he's escalated it. he is not to blal for them having a nuclear program. it don't blame everything on
donald trump. but to me, the scariest part thus far has been that we know from past crises that what you don't want is a miscalculation and cause -- >> do you trust jim mattis, the secretary of defense on, holding out? >> i think that the secretary of defense is a good influence there and so is the national security adviser. i think he understands what the, what would happen if we attack. >> you don't think this is a wag the dog situation, do you? >> no, no. the wag the dog didn't involved millions being killed. >> let's talk about something we know is real. special prosecutor robert mueller. if you look at all the reporting, and it's been excellent. the times, the post but also the
journal. you're getting a look at a guy close to the bone. he seems like he's getting into criminal tax problems. the real financial parts of the trump operation and obstruction. is it getting too late for trump to fire this guy? he has gotten so far. or can he pardon everybody? >> well, his way of firing him would be a saturday night massacre. he would have to go through rosenstein. because sessions has recused himself. i don't think that will happen. >> do you ever hear them saying, you know, if trump does that, that's the red line for me. if he fires -- >> i've heard discussion. i don't go into their cloak room usually. >> do they go into yours? >> actually, we do, actually. >> that could be a problem. that could be the problem. you don't go into each other's
cloak rooms. >> bob mueller has the trust of everybody in congress and washington. he was confirmed 100-0 twice. fbi director. he will see where the faktfacts. >> do you think he has trump's taxes some. >> i don't know. i think he should get them. there's some obvious financial relationship between the russians and trump. that's what his son donald junior. in 2008. when he said there's a disproportionate amount of money coming from the business. it is in the business in the united states. this is how the russians traditionally sink their hooks into people. they did it in eastern europe. it is called the kremlin play book. this fits a pattern. and yes.
i think that mueller will be looking at the, his financial -- >> if donald trump approved a letter that said the reason he is firing comey was to be dealing with the russian matter, would you consider that obstruction? if that was the reason he was firing? he didn't send but he approved that letter. >> yes. i hear there's a letter out there that may go further to proving obstruction. he said it was because of russia. i don't know if that amounts to it. >> it would be pretty close -- >> how about say in an interview? >> speaking of interviews and stage craft. hillary clinton has had a couple of chances to push books. .
>> let's see what happened. >> we were on a small stage. no matter where i walked, he followed me closely, staring at me, making faces. it was incredibly uncomfortable. do you stay calm, keep smiling and carry on as if he weren't repeatedly invading your space or do you turn, look him in the eye and say loudly and clearly, back up, you creep. get away from me. i know you love to intimidate women but you can't intimidate me. so back up? >> so he pulls the godzilla number, comes up behind her. he obviously wanted to make her uncomfortable. she said she felt uncomfortable. professionally meaning i shouldn't have to put up with someone doing this. >> what are politicians supposed to do when some lug comes at you?
>> first of all, he invaded george w.'s space. bush was talking and he went -- >> he checked him. >> he just went like this. hi. >> could hillary clinton have done that with trump standing behind her? >> obviously in the book, she is saying, or should i have done this? and i think the answer is yes, you should have. >> let's talk about it. it is about how you behave in the states. he makes fun of him sweating too much. he calls somebody else, crooked hillary. it is on the stage. in the moment. how do you take on a guy like trump in the moment without being more of a smart alec than
he is? i think that is answer. you have to take him on. >> i'm not sure that you have to beat trump to beat trump. very often, the president who gets elected is the opposite of the last guy. if you think about obama beating -- succeeding bush. w. was a guy who went with his gut. he wasn't necessarily the most articulate guy. you have a guy who was no drama obama and was incredibly well spoken. that's followed by the opposite. trump. so maybe the next person running against trump shouldn't feed into it. it is always a mistake. >> the last word. but trump will be there again. you announce that had you'll approach the presses's nominee for u.s. district court. the u.s. circuit court. he's from your states. why are you against him? >> i believe in an independent
court. trump has nothing but contempt for federal judiciary. you've shown that, questioning the ethnicity of judges. >> they did not follow the normal consultation with us. and this guy, stras, i shouldn't say this guy. good guy, nice guy. his jurisprudence, he was a clarence thomas clerk. he said tomhomas was his mentor. he was chosen as the right wing federal society as part of the short list for the supreme court. we were not consulted on this. that's the normal process. this is different than the process has been. that's how you get consensus judges. the court shouldn't work from one extreme to the other. this has been in place for
decades and decades. >> they only need 50 votes. can you stop him? >> we have a tradition called the blues slip. they wrote an op ed in the des moines register about how important the blues slip is. >> a home state senator can do it? >> yeah. >> it looks like you'll do it, are you? >> i have said i won't turn in my blue slip. justice strauss. >> for more on today's news, i'll joined by the washington bureau chief susan page. everybody is talking about the d.r.e.a.m.er issue. these kids came here because their parents came here. they speak with american accents, they feel like americans, the former president
said they are americans except they're not americans under the law. why wouldn't that get a quick vote in the senate and the house and the signature of the president who said he would sign it. >> we saw a d.r.e.a.m.er guy rescuing people after the floods the other day. in one recent poll, more than two-thirds said they support the idea of letting d.r.e.a.m.ers stay in one way or the other. it runs into politics. they were optimistic that there would be the votes. are republican who's control the house and senate willing to go back to their republican voters and say, here's what we did. we couldn't repeal obamacare but we did codify the d.r.e.a.m. act. i'm skeptical they can do it. >> it only takes about 25 republicans to join the democrats. if you get a clean vote, do you still see it going down? to simply continue and codify
making the wall, the dlak executive order. do you think would it fail? >> it is possible it would pass. when you saw that senate majority leader mcconnell listed the three top priorities, it didn't include daca. when you heard the white house talk about it, they indicated the president would not sign. indicated he wouldn't sign a stand-alone daca bill. it means funding for the wall. is that something democrats had agree to? >> no. but i think there's a tremendous push for a big portion of our population which comes from latin america, many people, a lot of people spsympathize them. kids especially. they want to give them a break. i've just been hearing the tremendous pressure and passion for this. thank you so much. susan page, thank you. coming up, the snarjustice department refutes the claim.
there is growing evidence that special counsel investigation is picking up speed including a new report that bob mueller has enlist ad secret branch of the irs to when he said the investigation. we're getting close to the bone of donald trump. we'll talk to adam schiff. plus, the trump administration warns that north korea is begging for more following the country's claim it successfully tested a hydrogen bomb. how should the president be responding to that? what can we do to walk it all back from the brink? and after a brutal summer, trump braces for a tougher fall. finally lerkts me finish with trump watch. statins lower cholesterol,
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that sounds like intent to disrupt. >> it is evidence of potential obstruction. we want to take a look at it as well. we wrote to the white house. some weeks ago, you might remember, asking when the president's claim had tape-recorded conversations with comey. not only if he had times but any kind of memorialization of conversations with comey. from the public reports, this letter does memorialize he conversations with xm should have been produced. we wrote to the white house twice. it is more than time for the committee to subpoena the documents and the results we got was at best very misleading. so it is important evidence that we need to see but also, bob mueller will need to consider. >> let's talk about obstruction. you're an attorney. what is obstruction in the can you be text of what we've seen and what is leading toward the suspicion there might have been obstruction by this president?
>> when it come to the president of the united states, the question is not whether it meets some prosecutable offense. in addition to a legal standard of whether a crime or misdemeanor has been committed, the very practical question of whether in a republican controlled congress, if it rose to the level where republican members could go back home and say that they warranted his removal from office. that this was not just nullifying an election that other people the didn't like. that's a very practical and high bar that would need to be met here. but certainly from the purposes of bob mueller and his investigation, it is something that i think he needs to look into and he needs to form his own conclusion about as we do as well in congress. >> back in the presidency of
john f. kennedy, the head of the irs, it was very help envelop going after bad guys, criminals. just like they got al capone on tax evasion. according to the report over the weekend, that bob mueller is using tax information to question whether there was any criminality by this president. what do you know about that? >> i can't speak to what bob mueller may or may not have been investigating. but i think say the scope of the jurisdiction is broad enough to include any financial entanglement between russians and the trump organization. it is among the most serious allegations that we need to be investigating as well. because this is, i think, the most powerful potential form of compromise. not the salacious video which i think has limited power, given how limited the "access hollywood" tapes, what limited effect head. if the russians were engage in the business transactions, let alone illicit ones like money
laundering, that could be held over the head of the president. and we need on consider that we saw publicly disclosed within the last couple weeks that contrary to what the president said, he and his organizations were seeking business in russia. if they won't be honest about that, we can't rely on the representations about whether the russians previously did business with them. let alone whether the business was legal. >> you mentioned the dossier. the washington examiner reported the house intelligence committee has subpoenaed the dossier. however, both the fbi and the department of justice did not turn over the subpoenaed goimts september 1st deadline and have been granted an exception. are your colleagues concern that had donald trump may be involved in that hotel scene that was very colorfully and graphically described in that report? that dossier? is that part of what you
mentioned? any embarrassment he should have suffered because of his language in the "access hollywood" tape? do you think there's a plausible truth to that dossier report in that regard? >> well, i don't know. i'll tell you this. i do have concerns with the majority of issuance of subpoenas. that was done in the minority. wave practice in the committee that has been down a partisan basis. we request information voluntarily before we ever contemplate a subpoena. here, they were never made in letter form or written request to the department. instead, the first the department got was a scene that. a that was not good practice. it was uncalled for in my view and considering that we have requested the white house compliance, more than once. multiple occasions, this kind of
treatment concerns us. rather than looking into how many of the allegations he wrote about were true. what we should be most concerned about is whether those sources of information in the report are true. not in discrediting the author. >> why would the subpoenas, you say they were issued, why would they cause a discrediting of the dossier? >> well, i think it is part of an effort to discredit he the author and i think if they can discredit christopher steel, they can discredit the whole russia investigation, the whole russia involvement in the elections. it doesn't quite make sense. no one on the committee disputes russia's involvement so i'll not sure i understand the thought behind it but i think that's the goal. it makes little sense to subpoena. and when there's an apparent double standard between what we
are willing to subpoena and what we are not willing to subpoena in the case of the white house. >> who do you trust more? christopher steele or president trump? >> well, i don't know mr. steele. i would like the opportunity to speak with him and we hope to have him come before our committee. we've expressed a willingness to go to london to sit down with him. i think on the question of russia, we've seen the president repeatedly issue false statements. indeed try to mislead to committee. about any documents that memorializer the documents. we got a tweet and a letter from the white house which was also misleading. it is clear we can't rely on the statements from the white house. >> thank you so much. ranking democrat on the house intelligence committee. also from california. he is from california. i'm joined now by betsy woodrough.
let's talk about this. i mentioned that in the kennedy administration, robert kennedy, they really wanted to use the toirs get the bad guys. tell me how mueller is doing it now. >> mueller is working investigators for what is called the criminal investigation unit of the irs. a very small, tight knit and elite group of the investigators. it has been around for decades. these were the buns helped nab al capone. they have a very specialized job. he believes someone in the president's circle, one of the folks included in the mandate has committed a tax crime. when he was a u.s. attorney. he ad mishs their work. it is generating a lot of chatter. >> are they going after him for something they believe he did wrong?
or trying to find something he did wrong? in other words, he went after capone because he is a killer and a bad guy, an awful human being, a criminal on every way. let's get him on taxes. are they going after they believe he did wrong or going after him because they don't like him? >> my understanding is the foegs in the criminal investigations unit are nonpartisan. they would not go going on a fish examining that he addition. >> what do they believe he did wrong? i'm open to this answer. what do they smell that they don't like? >> my understanding is one of the biggest skerns about paul manafort. that he may have used foreign banking accounts. if that's true and he didn't reveal that when he fwild the irs, it is a liability. it was once conceived unimaginable that north korea
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evacuations will begin in the keys tomorrow. mr. president, will you attack north korea? >> welcome back. that was president trump on sunday after north korea conducted largest ever nuclear explosion after what it said was a hydrogen bomb. the president weigh in the on twitter pointing a finger at china saying north korea is a rogue nation which has become a great threat and embarrassment. the president went on to say south korea is finding, as i have told they will, that their talk of appeasement with north korea will not work. they only understand one thing. at a u.n. security council meeting on monday, nikki haley
said enough is enough. >> his nuclear threats show he is begging for war. war is never something the united states wants. we don't want it now. but our country's patience is not unlimited. we have kicked the can down the road long enough. there is no more road left. >> we're joined now by richard engel in seoul, south korea. you know what we want to know west want to know how much danger there is, what if anything can be done by this president or anyone who is president. could be president to relieve it. >> reporter: so there is a danger. it seems at this stage, north korea has a hydrogen bomb. the japanese said that what the north koreans exploded this weekend was like i a hydrogen bomb, like the north koreans claimed and they have a long range missile capability. when you combine these two things together, they do have,
it seems to be, a nuclear weapons capacity that could threaten u.s. territory if not will the united states mainland. it is still a fairly crude system. it is still one that is in limited numbers. and still one that the u.s. feels that it could potentially deal with through missile defense or through a first strike scenario. it is not the mutually assured destruction of the old soviet days. that's what they keep saying. they keep saying the game is over. we can never be touched. we are invincible. but the officials i'm speaking to think there's still a window if they needed to act, they could act. and at least set the north korean nuclear program back several years. but that would mean a military strike. it would have enormous cost and enormous cost specifically for the city where i am right now.
because should the united states attack to protect merge security, this city would pay a price with likely an onslaught from artillery and rockets and potentially face world war ii level damage. so it is a very tense situation. where there's a window and that window is closing and getting narrower with passing time. >> would any leader, much less kim jong-un, stand by and have a surgical strike knock at his capability and not attack south with his conventional forces? >> reporter: it's possible on. and i think that is the calculation, or these are the kind of calculations that war planners are going through in the nsc right now. if the u.s. took some sort of action against the nuclear facilities, hit the test site in
the mountains and then follow one a threat saying we hit these sites. we aren't going any further. if you unleash those missiles on seoul, and those prokts are pointing at this city with a flight time that is very short, the u.s. will follow one a devastating attack. would north korea hesitate? would they take that attack on the chin knowing that the regime was at stake? that's an unknown. that's what makes this situation so dangerous. what i'm told is the u.s. wants to have a diplomatic solution. wants to go through china. wants to get russia on board but vladimir putin said he's not interested in the process. he sees it very differently. but if this diplomacy doesn't work, there might have to be a military strike from the u.s. perspective before the window close and north korea has many intercontinental ballistic missiles hidden in bunkers with
nuclear weapons attached to them and it is truly an irreversible situation. we're living in this window and it is dangerous and there's danger of miscalculation. there's danger of the u.s. thinking it can slip in and attack before the window closes and the situation going badly. so it is a lot of calculations to be made. >> well, it has to be closely run. and i'm not sure this president can do it. thank you for that cold, cold, factual report. up next, bannon is back. news the former chief strategist has met with a congressman from north carolina and is said to be laying the groundwork for an all-out war. this is a freedom caucus war with the republican leadership in the house and the senate with the backing of steve bannon. dental professionals recommend using an electric toothbrush. for an exceptionally fresh feeling choose philips sonicare diamondclean. hear the difference versus oral b. in a recently published clinical study, philips sonicare diamondclean outperforms oral-b 7000,
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president trump is entering a very dangerous autumn. steve bannon, the former chief strategist, has met with crank mark meadows who is cheryl of the house chief caucus. they met for the agenda on the month ahead with the emphasis on the breitbart freedom caucus war against the republican leadership on multiple fronts. and one source said the gop should brace for a bloody september. for now, i'm joined by jonathan swan, the reporter from reuters and the senior writer. and forget about north korea if you can. how crazy if steve bannon links up with the freedom caucus and decides to demolish anything trump tries to do in trying to get harvey relief, debt ceiling, he is going to bloit apart.
>> two hours in the breitbart embassy with matt boyle, who is probably the most feral political reporter in washington. that means off the chain. he is truly -- >> what animals are we referring to in. >> what's the fiercest attack dog that you know? >> what species of animal? >> probably a species we haven't seen. >> so you think they're dangerous. >> i think they'll fight leadership based on the communication on monday. >> okay. what is the advantage of blowing up everything so the government doesn't pay its bills? it doesn't continue to operate? nobody gets help down many harvey, because of hurricane harvey. who benefits from that? besides the democrats in a weird way? >> nobody benefits. you always get these termses with steve bannon, bloody september. always splik war movie but there
are real things at stake here. the question is, what do you get from just not getting anything done? >> what's the answer? >> i guess you get points for the freedom caucus. you can say you stirred up your base. other than that, it seemed like there will be some repercussions for what they do. >> you get standing on principle. some of these guys believe this. they want spending cuts. they want structural reform, entitlement reform, things are important to fiscal conservative deficit hawks. guys who ran on this going back to the tea party years in 2010 promised this. instead of continuing on raise the debt ceiling. some of these guys do believe it but i think the bannon and trump factor. >> you're laughing. >> i'm not laughing. >> you are. there are people enjoying absolute chaos. >> they proved their force in the health care debate. meadows was the main player and he was the guy that trump had to deal with trying to get votes.
they barely got it through the house. then it didn't work through the senate. >> about 33% in all the polls say they're sticking with trump through hell and high water. hold that 33%. and then add 10% by beating the heck out of whoever it is. not little richard -- little marc dlofl little richard is a musician. just trashing them what is in it for the country when the 33% shrinks even further? and the freedom caucus, how many do they represent? the government back's deadbeat. the dollar doesn't mean anything. our debt doesn't mean anything. it is a joke. we become a banana republic, not to knock them. who benefits from that? >> you talk about the health care debate. that's the perfect example. you have the freedom caucus is that they drove that herring bill further and further to the right and made it more and more conservative. then you didn't get anything. and that issue is still ongoing.
we're not talking about health care. that's not because it was solved. >> i think what we'll see over the next to is a govern mag jort made up of republican leadership. that will hurt paul ryan and mitch mcconnell politically. trump won't be happy about it. >> that won't happen. in other words, no more -- the hasert rule. >> it will be a heavy democrat bill. >> we'll see. you said democrat. not democratic. is it an adjective or a noun? it's democratic. just like thee who own them, every business is different. but every one of those businesses will need legal help as they age and grow. whether it be with customer contracts, agreements to lease a space or protecting your work. legalzoom's network of attorneys can help you, every step of the way. so you can focus on what you do and we'll handle the legal stuff that comes up along the way.
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>> it sounds like mob movie. thank you so much. for a great time. when we return, let me finish with trump watch. he should learn from the one tonight. you're watching "hardball." (woman) when you have type 2 diabetes, there's a moment of truth. and now with victoza®, a better moment of proof. victoza® lowers my a1c and blood sugar better than the leading branded pill, which didn't get me to my goal. lowers my a1c better than
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has been more provocative than make america great men. they are what has constituted america's greatness over the many decades. one of the first principle that all of us are created equal under the law and before the country. trump calls the winners and the losers. equal among each other just as we are equal created in the eyes of god. second, we are not a divide country the. the ideal has been national unit. we come from many to one. third, we are most of us descended from immigrants. fourth, the world has prized a free press, an independent judiciary, a belief in rule by law. isn't it odd that trump has vowed to deconstruct what has
held us together? we maybe good country. a fact we need to hold firm as we face throats our beloved country from without but also from within. that's "hardball." thanks for being with us. tonight on "all in" -- >> we love the d.r.e.a.m.ers. >> the program known as daca is being redescribeded. >> we are now in a countdown toward deportation. >> tonight, cascading outrage around the country as the president defends his decision to ends daca. >> i think it will work out very well. and long term it will be the right solution. >> then, the growing to do list to avoid shutdowns. why the president is crushed over the latest white house departure.