tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC September 13, 2017 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT
my interview with at that that haes coats. tomorrow night hillary clinton joins rachel maddow live. so this is live in studio, which is fascinating. make sure to be there for that. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening. >> you are very kind and also a very good pitch man. >> it's true, though. i'm excited for the interview her, but it doesn't have the fridays yon of live television. i'm siekd that that's the way it's happening. >> that's true it's unedited, live in the moment and it's because she's going to be here right on set. i couldn't be more nervous. thank you, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. that interview with hillary clinton will be live at this hour tomorrow night. you know, when presidents and prime ministers and kings and
queens and members of various royal families come to visit to the united states, there's modern diplomatic protocol that anybody in that kind of a foreign leadership role notifies the u.s. government if they are coming to the u.s. any sort of world leader, any sort of significant member of a royal family, if any of them are going to be present on u.s. soil, the united states government expects to know about it in advance for security reasons if nothing else. and it's a pretty closely held protocol. that is the way it works. well, this past december, december 2016, that protocol was broken because a very senior member of the elm ratty royal family, the crown prince of the united arab emirates, he came to the united states in december in secret. he did not notify the obama administration. he did not notify the u.s. government that he was coming and that's weird. that said, it's not like he didn't get noticed. he's pretty high-profile international figure.
and u.s. intelligence agencies picked up the fact that he was here. and his visit and their surveillance of his visit presumably was way more intriguing to the intelligence community than it might normally have been under normal circumstances, specifically because he tried to sneak in, right. you see somebody doing something like that's a routine thing that they let you know they're going to do in advance and you pay attention, but you don't really pay that much attention. you find somebody sneaking in and trying to do something without teg the government that he's here, they're going to focus on that. so this guy didn't tell the obama administration that he was coming. the intelligence community picked up that he was here and what they picked up when they monitored his undeclared visit was that the crown prince of the united arab emirates came to new york city and he came to trump tower for a meeting in december 2016, undisclosed to the u.s. government, the elm ratty crown
prince met at trump tower with these guys, with mike flynn, soon to be national security adviser, steve bannon, soon to be white house senior strategist and jared kushner. america's own crown prince. cnn reports today that when obama national security adviser susan rice unmasked the names of these three americans, these three trump advisers in an intelligence intercept, it was because she was looking at an intelligence intercept trying to figure out what the elm ratty crown prince was doing in the united states on this visit that he explicitly did not declare with the u.s. government. and that's exactly the kind of circumstances under which national security officials would unmask a u.s. name on an intelligence intercept, right. if you need to do that in order to figure out what some foreign surveillance target was up to in this country. well, in this case it turns out what he was up to was a secret meeting at trump four with flynn
and bannon and kushner. that meeting at trump tower was on december 11th. and then the elm ratty guy turned up again a month later, the same elm ratty crown prince turned up in the say she will islands for a meeting that was later reported in the "washington post." this time in january. it was the elm ratty crown prince organizing the meeting. the people having the meeting were eric prince, major trump donor, the founder of the controversial private security firm blackwater and incidentally the brother of education sister betsy devos. eric prince and that stealthy crown prince who had secretly been meeting with bannon and kushner and flynn at trump tower. he went to set up a meeting with a russian guy, with a representative of vladimir putin's office. as the "washington post" reported, the secret meeting in
the seychelles between trump's representative and putin's representative, it was set up by the elm ratty crown prince and it was designed to set up a secret back channel for communication between the putin camp and the trump camp. now, erik prince, he denies that that's what that meeting was about. he has admit, yes, he was in the seychelles. yes, it was a meeting set up by the elm ratty crown principles. yeah, maybe he met the putin guy, but he says it was nothing. or if it was anything, it was just business. and just business is becoming kind of a theme of the day today. there's a whole bunch of news going on right now. just this hour we've got mark warner for the interview. we've got katy tur here tonight. we've got news from the virgin islands where these ad hoc evacuations continue to be under way seven days after hurricane irma hit. we've got news from florida today where a second nursing home was evacuated late today
after eight elderly people died at one facility in hollywood, florida, despite the fact that this was literally across the street from a hospital that was open and didn't lose power during the storm. halfway around the world in belarus, russia is starting what's happened to be the largest military exercise slash demonstration since the cold war. there are significant fierce whether or not this thing is really just an exercise or whether this might be designed to mask the start of some other russian military operation, is which is what they did at the start of the ukraine invasion in 2014. so there's lots going on right now. lots worth keeping an eye on. a bunch of that we're going to be discussing this hour. but today just a ton of news broke on the trump russia investigation. and in particular on the business side, on the business and financial ties that seem to form this sticky web that is catching all the bugs here. apart from the cnn news that
susan rice appears to have unmasked american names from that trump tower meeting in december for a totally legit reason related to a secret meeting held by a foreign leader without notice to the u.s. government, apart from that news from cnn today, it was nbc news that reported today that mike flynn's son, mike flynn jr. is himself subject of an investigation by robert mueller. mike flynn's son is not an intelligence professional. his background, reportedly he's got an associates degree in golf course management. but family business is family business, and his dad was certainly an intelligence professional, and mike flynn jr. was reportedly employed by his dad at his dad's consulting company. he served as his dad's chief of staff and he reportedly accompanied his dad on his father's trip to russia in 2015,
where he attended the gala anniversary party for russia today, the russia state-run media company and where his dad famously had dinner with vladimir putin and then he led a standing ovation for putin when putin was introduced at the event. mike flynn jr. also appears to have been involved in the effort by a republican donor to contact russian government hackers to try to obtain information on hillary clinton during the campaign. shane harris at the wall street journal obtained an e-mail that that republican activityist and donor peter smith sent out to troo i to get outside spefrts on board with his effort to reach russian government hackers to get them to further their attacks on hillary clinton. in that e-mail peter smith offered to make introductions to mr. flynn's son, michael j. flynn who worked as chief of staff in his father's company.
in phone conversations peter smith told a computer expert he was in direct contact with that mr. flynn and his son, the expert said an anti-clinton research document prepared by mr. smith's group identified the younger mr. flynn as someone who would be associated with the effort. so mike flynn's son, mike flynn jr., his alleged role in that effort to collude with russian hackers with the campaign that was exposed by "the wall street journal" in june. now, today nbc cites four current and former government officials that he's the subject of robert mueller's inquiry as of course is michael flynn sr. and today things got much worse in the reporting about him. back in june jeff stelg, who is really well sourced on intelligence issues he reported for news week back in june that one of the business dealings that mike flynn sr. never disclosed when he got to washington was a russian
partnership he was pitching to build 16, count them, 16 nuclear power plants in saudi arabia, which needs a lot of things, but nuclear power probably isn't one of them. jeff stien published this piece in june about mike flynn's involvement in that businessman and about flynn taking a trip to the middle east to meet with people and to promote this sawed russian financed nuclear deal. because he never disclosed anything about this on his security clearance applications or on his white house financial disclosures, that sparked the top democratic on the foreign affairs committee and oversight committee to write to his former business partners in that deal to troo i to get more information on about this would be gigantic business deal that he was involved in that he never disclosed. well, today that blew up. it all started with that reporting in june about flynn's involvement in that deal, but today is the day it blew up. and you can see the chronology
unfold here, right. so in june there's this news week story about the russian nuclear deal and mike flynn. in june right after that elliott angle and elijah cummings write to the business people flynn was work on the ground this deal with and they asked for information about it. those folks respond to that letter they send to congress the requested information about this would-be russian deal and mike flynn's involvement and mike flynn's trip to the middle east to promote it. and now this morning, this morning elijah cummings and elliott eng elmake the whole thing public. quote, we are writing today to thank you pour your responses and to request additional information. first, your responses provide multiple independent kwirmgsz that general flynn traveled to the middle east to meet with foreign government officials and foreign business associates in june 2015 to promote this u.s.-russian nuclear power project. based on your responses, it appears that general flynn violated federal law by omitting
this trip and these foreign contacts from his security clearance, renewal application in 2016 and concealing them from security clearance investigators who interviewed him as part of his background check process. since these violations carry criminal penalties of up to five years in prison, we're providing your responses to special counsel robert mueller. thanks for the info on this guy you were in business with. what you told us means he's going to prison. the congress men then asked for further documentation about mike flynn's communications with foreign gofs and foreigners about this business deal. they asked these business associates to prepare to come in and testify to congress on these matters. but then they raised this one very provocative question. this trip to the middle east to promote this plan, these payments that flynn got to be involved in this potential deal, was this just 2015? did this thing actually end then or did it keep going on? is it still going on? did flynn still have a hand in
on this russian nuclear deal during the campaign? maybe even while he feels in the white house? here is how they put it in the letter. your responses suggest that you and other officials at your companies may have discussed this matter with trump administration officials during and after mike flynn's tenure at the white house. quote, the american people deserve to know whether general flynn was secretly promoting the private interests of these businesses while he was a campaign adviser, a transition official or president trump's national security adviser. so big new alarming question here, right, in terms of national security, in terms of foreign influence on our own government, and in terms of corruption and conflict of interest. was the trump national security adviser, mike flynn, secretly pursuing or trying to advance a gigantic russian business deal? or was he being paid to promote one while he was working in the white house as national security adviser? so that letter raising that
provocative question, that letter from cummings and enel, that was in my e-mail inbox at 7:30 this morning. by 3:00 this afternoon the answer had avgd in the wall street jushl. see the headline flynn promoted nuclear plant project while in the white house. this prospect raised by these congress men this morning is answered and confirmed by "the wall street journal" this afternoon. the journal describes the russian nuclear deal as potentially being worth hundreds of billions of dollars. once he was national security adviser in the trump white house the journal reports that mike flynn did direct national security counsel staff to meet with the companies involved in the russian nuclear project. the journal cites former national security adviser staffers as being horrified by what he was doing describing it as outside normal channels and, quote, not the way things were supposed to go and, quote,
highly abnormal. according to the journal the ethics advisers on the national security council actually told flynn to remove himself from this project but quote, the activity continued. so if you're keeping track at home, the man who donald trump installed as the top national security official in the white house did not disclose thousands of dollars he was paid by a russian air cargo company that was tied to the russian government in the summer of 2015. he did not disclose thousands of dollars he was paid by a russian software company tied to the russian intelligence services in the fall of 2015. he did not disclose thousands of dollars and a free trip to moscow for him and his son that were provided to him in the winter of 2015 by a russian state-run media company. nor did he obtain permission from the u.s. military to take that trip to moscow to take that money from the russian government or to meet with russian president vladimir putin, all of which he was supposed to do, he was warned he was supposed to do it and he
didn't do it anyway. he then did not disclose that entities lingtd to the turkish government were paying him hundreds of thousands of dollars to represent the turkish government's interests during the campaign. he then did not disclose his contacts with russian government officials during the presidential transition. he specifically did not disclose that his contacts with russian government officials during the campaign and during the transition included him talking about russian sanctions with them. and now we know he didn't disclose his paid involvement and his paid foreign travel to promote a gigantic russian nuclear business deal in the middle east in 2015 during the transition and even during his short looifd time as national security adviser. and now the special counsel would also like a word with his son, please, as well. at the national security blog just security today they did a q and a with somebody that used to work in the office of legal counsel at the white house on this last point that was disclosed today by these two democrats on the foreign affairs committee and the oversight
committee. they asked about basically how big a legal deal it is that flynn didn't disclose this russian nuclear deal and the trip that he took to promote it. quote, question, if flynn did indeed take this middle east trip about the russian nuclear deal and he failed to disclose it on his security clearance form, is that significant? answer, an undisclosed effort to help broker a deal for russian entities is a huge revelation in the context of the russian activities. it could be huge to false statements forest peen age act. it would turn on the nature of his role in the deal and his mental state about his failure to disclose. follow-up question, at this point is it safe to say that flynn has some serious criminal liability? answer, mike flynn is in significant legal jeopardy of
criminal prosecution. so there is one report tonight that mike flynn is again resisting a subpoena to testify to congressional investigators. i'm not sure whether or not is that single report is true, but we can ask senator mark warner about it in just a minute since reportedly that's a matter concerning his committee. but there's also news tonight about that second item on the list. one of those russian linked companies that paid mike flynn that he initially didn't think to mention when it came to his financial disclosures, ka% can i labs is one of at least three different russian entities that started shoflg payment his way all of which he didn't disclose. all u.s. federal agencies can't use that company's software because of concerns about having links to russian intelligence and the possible use to help russia spy around the world.
and whether or not that decision today to ban the use of ka% ski software by all federal agencies, whether or not that has -- it's just a number of tech companies that find itself at the center of these investigations. within the past week facebook has just started to admit that they took russian money for ads tied to fake accounts that tried to influence americans during the election last year. now we know those efforts included trying to gin up anti-immigrant protests on u.s. soil. there are increasingly urgent questions about whether or not facebook is going to allow investigators to figure out if it was basically part of the crime scene for what the russians did last year and for the crucial question of whether or not the trump campaign participated in it. but there's one last hard thing that got reported today, and if
you've been keeping a close eye on the mueller investigation as the best hope for finding out what happened last year and for bringing charges against anyone involved, then i think this may be worrying. it's about the mueller investigation appearing to be stymied, appearing to be blocked in terms of their access to potentially critical witnesses. we have been worrying about this for the mueller investigation for a while. we got some good concrete reporting today about how those worries are coming to fruition. that story is ahead with senator mark warner with the senate intelligence committee. we've got lots going on tonight. stay with us. remember nashville? kimchi bbq. kimchi bbq. amazing honky tonk?? i can't believe you got us tickets. i did. i didn't pay for anything. you never do. send me what i owe. i've got it. i mean, you did find money to buy those boots. are you serious? is that why you don't like them? those boots could make a unicorn cry. yeah, tears of joy. the bank of america mobile banking app. the fast, secure and simple way to send money.
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when facebook came and presented to the senate intel staff they didn't lay out this incident. >> you said facebook p didn't originalel disclose this piece of information -- >> just knowing -- let me recheck this, but i do not believe that in the presentation they made to their staff -- our staff that they disclosed this item. >> representatives from the company facebook met with the senate intelligence committee staff last week. as of yesterday the top democrat on the senate intelligence committee said that as far as he's aware, facebook didn't disclose to his committee this new information that's now been reported by "the daily beast" that in addition to buying ads on facebook to try to influence the election, russian operatives also used facebook to try to organize in-person protests across the united states during the 2016 campaign. joining us now for the interview is senator mark warner. he's vice chair of the senate intelligence committee. really appreciate your time tonight. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you, rachel. >> so let me ask you first. i have a few questions about
this facebook issue. >> sure. >> did facebook disclose to your committee the fact that in addition to russia funding ads related to the election, they also used facebook to try to organize real events? did they disclose that they've confirmed that when they met with your committee? >> no, they did not. facebook -- we had made a request. they sent a team in. and remember, we're talking about facebook which over half of americans use every day. we made these inquiries back last winter saying that we had heard and we thought that facebook was both being manipulated by some of the russians, that there were fake accounts, they were using this to in effect gee oh target ads at certain communities to try to depress vote in the election. and facebook's initial reaction was that's crazy, there's nothing there. well, we now come to find, fab that half the americans use to get their news from every day, that everything we said and more was true. they came in, made a
presentation, said there was $100,000 plus of paid advertising, there were 3,000 plus ads purchased and in that presentation they showed the staff, certain of those ads, but they didn't allow the staff to keep any of that material. and i went back. i figured you'd ask this question skpchlt to my knowledge, they made no reference to this effort to try to bring about protesters to an anti-muslim, anti-immigrant rally. it's why i think that we're still at the tip of the iceberg. the fact is i don't think facebook has put the resources, the time, and i think there's a lot more. they've discovered one of the troll farms that came out of st. petersburg. my understanding is they didn't even go back and check all those accounts to see if they had put out other ads. we know from past reporting that there are a number of these troll and other efforts, internet-based efforts that came out of other countries in
eastern europe that russia was known to organize. we've not had any evidence that they investigated those efforts as well. so i think there's a lot more questions. i believe i have more questions coming out of their staff interview than got answered, but clearly there's a lot more questions that need to be asked and answered. >> and in terms of their willingness to answer those questions and your ability to compel them to, i was interested to see facebook's response to bloomberg news today. bloomberg was reporting on this controversy over whether or not facebook is essentially part of the crime scene here, needs to be available to investigators. and what facebook told bloomberg today was that they weren't going to share any more details about how their platform was used during the campaign, quote, for operational and security reasons. and i don't know what that means. they're also citing the electronic communications privacy act as saying some of the information that you guys want access to may be protected by that privacy act.
given the way they're sort of being resistant so far, do you feel like you and your committee have the ability to compel them to give you access to that data if they're not inclined as a company to do it? >> well, facebook is a company that's a remarkable american success story. lots and lots of people rely on facebook, not only for news, but for other information and communication. a lot of that is based on trust. i would think that facebook would want to cooperate with us. they've indicated in other releases that they would cooperate. i acknowledge that this is an area where it's kind of the wild, wild west, and there may be need for additional rules. but let's go through two or three facts that we do know. one, clearly there were russians paying for ads on facebook, and we'll see if the same is the case with twitter when they come in and talk to us. and to me that appears to be
inappropriate. we have prohibitions against somebody putting a foreign-based tv ad on msnbc. i believe those same rules should apply on social media sites. we also know as well that there is this inability to kind of look at the content. there may be some ad that runs on your show that i dislike or disregard, but as an american citizen i've got a right to look at that content. what i think facebook is saying we have no right as americans to look at the content that's being used to affect our political dialogue. and third, you know, the question of the number of these fake accounts, they said they've identified i believe 470 fake accounts that might have been tied to russia with this one troll farm. to me i look back and say facebook didn't take this seriously in our election, but by the time the french elections came in the spring, facebook themselves reported they took
down 50,000 accounts, 50,000 in france and hp 0 in america, to me i believe that the russian effort to interfere in our elections both using facebook and twitter but also attacking 21 states electoral systems, hacking into both political parties, releasing information only against one, to me it seems that the russian intervention in the american election was extensive, coordinated and frankly unprecedented. i've got to believe if they took that much on, there's probably more if -- to be discovered if they took down 50,000 sites in france. i would think they would see equivalent numbers in the american elections, but that's why they need to be a little more transparent and come forward. >> and the transparency applies not to just them policing their own platform but also helping investigators piece together what may have happened there. >> right. facebook needs our trust as we go through this. they don't have any of the same rules that apply to broadcasting
stations, but as more and more americans and folks around the world rely upon them, i think it does raise a host of new questions about who is going to cure ate the information, what kind of validity do we feel like the information that's coming over. sometimes the ads are only a piece. if you've got a series of false accounts liking certain groups or certain pages, that may drive those groups higher on the allege rilt ims that would then appear on your facebook news feed. a lot more questions to ask. and again, my hope that they would work with us because this increasingly is going to be the way people communicate in the political world. >> senator warner, i have one more matter that i want to ask you about, which is something that i don't think anybody else is worried about, but i am. and it's bugging me. it's about -- >> the programs that -- there's a lot of stuff to be worried about. >> oh, good. i have one big worry to ask you about. do you mind just sticking around with us for just one more second? >> absolutely. >> senator warner will be back with us. stay with us. each year sarah climbs 58,007 steps.
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last week had this scoop intensifying russia probes could pit capitol hill against robert mueller. that scoop last week was a big deal because it doumd for i think the first time a known conflict between congress and the special counsel, robert mueller. the conflict was about former trump campaign chair paul manafort. in late july you'll remember that the fbi raided manafort's house in virginia. that raid came less than 24
hours after manafort had done an interview with the senate intelligence committee. what did he say to that committee that day? what did he testify about which now seems especially interesting if him showing up for that testimony was what sparked the surprise raid that night after he testified? well, we don't know what he said in that testimony. and maybe that's not that weird because it was behind closed doors. what does seem a little weird is that robert mueller, the special counsel, doesn't know what manafort said either. thanks to that cnn report last week, we know that mueller's office asked for the transcript of manafort's interview with the committee and didn't get it. whatever manafort gay to congress mueller has no idea which strategically may be important. that only works if he knows what manafort's testimony is before the white house gets it from the congressman or senator on the republican side.
well, now today man u at cnn further reports that the same thing has happened from the senate testimony of donald trump jr. he spoke to staffers on the senate judiciary committee. mueller wants the transcript but the committee at least thus far won't give it to mueller. two instances now senate committees interviewing key witnesses apparently mr. robert mueller does and his special counsel part of the investigation, but then the committee's have refused to give transcripts of what they've said once he asked. i don't mean to be blunt here and i don't know how all these did he con flikz things work, but are these congressional investigations now blocking what robert mueller was trying to do? we knew there was going to be conflict. is it ploking what the special counsel is trying to do? joining us now once again is the top democrat on the senate intelligence committee, senator mark warner. what is wrong with my worry
about this matter? >> well, i can't speak to what happened with donald trump jr. and the judiciary committee. we expect to have donald trump jr. at some point in the future. we want to actually do it in an appropriate way. we want to try to talk to as many other people in the room as possible first before we bring in mr. trump jr. in terms of man u's report on paul manafort, i believe it is ralgts bit of a stretch. we will work through this. i can tell you i want mr. mueller to have all the tools he needs to pursue his investigation, which could end up being a criminal investigation. ours is a counterintelligence investigation. in terms of the case of mr. manafort, mr. manafort changed lawyers during this time period, and i believe that will -- that issue will ultimately be resolved in terms of everybody getting the appropriate documents and information they
need. there will be -- we do have different goals. and i want mr. mueller to be successful, but i also think we have and we're one of the last bipartisan investigations going in this process. we have an obligation back to all the senate as well as the american people to see how russia intervened in our elections, was there collusion between the trump campaign and the russians. and our standard of evidence is actually different than what mr. mueller may adhere to. but this question of conflict, i know map u and he's a great reporter, but in terms of how the senate intelligence committee and the special prosecutors getting along, i think we will work through all those issues. >> but what you mentioned there about mr. manafort changing lawyers in the middle of this process, are you saying that whether or not mueller gets the transcript of that interview will depend on what manafort's lawyer decides in that matter? isn't the transcript the property of your committee to do with it what you want? >> well, rachel, we are going
through these witnesses. we'd much rather try to go through these witnesses on a voluntary basis rather than using subpoenas because we want to try to get as much information as we can. i can assure you from the committee's standpoint, we're going to want to have mr. manafort back and have a chance for we as senators to question him as well. and we expect that to happen and, again, i can assure you on the macro level in that long list of what you've gone through just tonight in your program on the things to be concerned about, there were many other things earlier in the show that you listed. i'm not sure i would keep -- be awake all night on this issue. i think we are going to continue to work through did he con flikz with special prosecutor mueller. we've had a very good working relationship with him. >> senator mark warner. i know you do not do a ton of interviews, sir. appreciate it. we've got much more to come tonight. stay with us.
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intriguing is developments about russian propaganda outlets. on monday it was the news that sputnik, the russia government funded news agency is now under investigation by the fbi. an investigation into whether sputnik is acting assen undeclared propaganda arm of the kremlin in violation of the foreign agents registration act. and yesterday came the news about russia today, rt, their
u.s. affiliate of russia today being notified by the justice department that they must register as a foreign agent. that is disseminating propaganda in the united states. so both sputnik and rt starting to feel some heat in this country this week, ten months after they were named by the -- or eight months after they were named by the intelligence community for their role in the russian attack last year on the u.s. election. but if you're looking for something in this field of study to keep you up at night, consider this person. her name is la tina. this is her announcing on twitter on the right side of your screen there that she and her family were fleeing russia, fearing for her life. i don't speak or read russian but the little part in blue there at the end of her tweet i am told rep utably that what that says is hashtag putin. this is her announcing that she's leaving russia in fear for her life hashtag putin.
unsettled even when translated. that came 24 hours after she was awarded the freedom of the press price by the russian journalism union which is a prize named after a famous russian journalist who was shot down in the lobby of her apartment building in moscow in 2006. for whom that award was named, she wrote for an independent newspaper in russia. this woman also writes a column for the independent russian news organization that employed -- she's been one of the kremlin's most outspoken critics, but now after winning this akward for freedom of the press, she's now fleeing the country. she says that she has endured a frightening string of attacks earlier this month. her car mysteriously caught fire in what she believes was an assassination attempt. in july her home was gassed.
last year when she was on her way to work she was doused with a bucket of feces. her parent have already fled russia in fear for their lives. now so has she. the russian newspaper where she works says that she did not say that she was going. they also said that she is, quote, unlikely to return anytime soon. she claims that she was being followed for a time she had police protection, but after her car was set on fire, she said she was too scared and she left town. she left her home country. she was very clear about the larger issue about with a why she was leaving. the forces that incould you baited those attacks. moscow times she believed they resulted in an add months fear of hostility towards opposition politicians and journalists encouraged by the russian authorities. that's what life is like for journalists in russia of the you become one of the most known
columnists in the country, you win a freedom of the press award named for another journalist who was shot dead in her apartment building and ultimately you end up having to leave the country. when those kinds of threats, that kind of hostility is aimed at journalists around the world, we tend to take it seriously as a matter of press freedom. we tend to hold ourselves up as a beacon for press freedom despite threats to it around the world. when we start playing with that as a country, that's playing with fire basically for the whole world. >> they're not reporting it. katy, you're not reporting it, katy. but there's something happening, katy. there's something happening, katy. >> she's back there, little katy. she's back there. what a lie it was -- no. what a lie -- katy tur, third-rate reporter. remember that. third rate. third rate. >> does that give you pause. >> no, it gives me no pause if
-- >> have a foreign government -- >> you know what gives me more pause, that a american in our government, crooked hillary clinton, here is what gives me -- i know you want to save her. >> the pew research which is independent. >> don't be naive, you're a very naive person. >> the pew research says that for immigrants on the whole -- >> try getting it out. >> i'll get it out. >> i don't know if you're going to put it this on television, but you p don't even know what you're talking about. trying r try getting it out. >> katy has not looked up once at me. the level of hatred is incredible. when these people -- >> all presidents, all presidential candidates have had hos still relationships with the press from time to time. this current president has a totally different reaction to the press and a totally different take on press freedom than any president that has ever gone before him. and the person who most person fiez his hostility is nbc
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campaign, this past election. katy tur spent more than 500 days covering the trump campaign. her new book about it is called "unbelievable: my front row seat to the craziest campaign in american history." congratulations. >> thank you for having me. >> this story to me is a great behind the scenes look at being a campaign correspondent but the thing i found most scary and most worrying about it, the thing i come back to is people at trump campaign rallies, screaming at you saying terrible things of hillary clinton, being violent or talking in terms that are very uncivil for american politics and you described them as people that wouldn't behave that way in normal live. it was permission to behave in a way they would n't. >> i can't imagine anyone walking around screaming
assassinate that "b" and being called a c-word in my regular life just walking down the street or any of the other names that i was called, any of the other names that reporters were called and believe me, it wasn't just me. it was all of us. collectively, in this pen, there was something -- you're right, about the trump rallies that allowed them to unleash, allowed them to become that version of themselves. that's because the candidate on the stage could say whatever he wanted. and face no repercussions for it. and he never backed down. and they felt like they could do that. they could unleash their anger. and in many ways, donald trump was directing that anger at the press. heri here, look. i brought the elite of the establishment, those keeping life not good for you. >> jeer them. >> jeer them. here they are. i brought them here. think near a cage, a pen. you can yell at them. >> and so, if the traditional
means of enforcing political norms and the norms of civil discourse in this country is people are shamed because they're chastened breaking them, in this case, it worked backwards. >> yeah. >> how do you solve that? how do you salvage civil discourse in that context? >> there's an argument to say we went way too far with political correctness. people couldn't tell a joke and they just felt like they were being boxed in and they couldn't be themselves anymore. any version of themselves. and maybe this is the overcorrection backwards and we are going to find some happy medium again. i mean, you go back. just lock at shows you would watch ten years ago. popular shows on broadcast tv, some of the jokes they make in the shows, i can't imagine seeing on a show today. we did correct a lot and people did feel it and they were angry about it. and they felt like donald trump was helping them release all of
that frustration. >> katy, you talk about having done this as sort of an outsider, not being a political journalist, not somebody who did the campaign thing before this, not being an asset covering such a strange campaign this way, i wonder now that you have been through this experience and spent 500-plus days on the trail and gave you some insight into what works and doesn't and you were able to predict that trump was going to win and a lot of people thought he wasn't, does it make you want to do more of this reporting? >> yeah. in some ways, i think it was extraordinarily as you said valuable to be naive going into this and i think what's so valuable coming out of it was the interactions and ugly interactions with supporters. >> that's the most important thing in the book here. you talking to people supporting them and screaming at you. >> you learn so much about why they voted for donald trump. and why they felt like he was
the only option. and many of them felt like he was the only option. people saw what he was. they weren't blind. they weren't deaf. some were maybe putting their fingers in the ears and refusing to believe it and they saw who he was and they felt that washington was so broken, so corrupt, so not out for them that somebody needed to come and throw a bomb into it and when the trump administration says that, justification for pretty much everything, they do have a point because donald trump supporters were not republicans or democrats or independents. they were donald trump supporters. >> as a country, though, one of our values, one of our stated values in our constitution and one of the things we hold up in terms of ourselves as a beacon to the world is freedom of the press and politicians and presidents and presidential candidates have always had combat with members of the press. it's different with trump because he doesn't even pay lip service to the ideal that goes
behind the idea of our first amendment. what's the strategy for salvaging our respect for freedom of the press and the safety of doing journalism in this country when he's profited so much off of the sort of two minutes of hate against journalists he brought to the campaign and then to those event that is you covered? >> you do your job. if you're a journalist, you do your job every single day. and you do not back down. you're a journalist in russia, do your job every single day. and you do not back down until you absolutely have to flee the country. like the woman you were just speaking of. but that's how you maintain a freedom of the press. >> just by behaving as one. >> by behaving one. ultimately, i don't think -- john mccain can come up and say this isible. mitch mcconnell can say it's terrible. name your person. no one person comes out and finally wake everybody in this country saying, it is not okay to do this. it is the american people who
are going to have to decide for themselves that they've had enough with this angry, violent rhetoric and they want to reinstitute some sort of balance. because you have to remember something. without journalists it's just propaganda. >> katy tur's new book is "unbelievable." i have read a lot of campaign books. this one i think is important because of the way that you were able to put the people who were there who were trying to get such a rise out of you at the center of the empathy in your narrative. and i learned a lot. and you're great. thank you. congratulations. >> thank you. appreciate it. >> that does it for us tonight. right here tomorrow in this studio sitting where katy tur is right now, hillary clinton. she will be here for a live interview that i'm very excited about. good evening, laurnwrence. >> good evening, rachel. i have the j