tv MSNBC Live With Katy Tur MSNBC October 30, 2017 11:00am-12:00pm PDT
trying to set up potential meetings with russian officials. in the case of paul manafort, their strategy is to say, look, all of these actions that are under a micro scope right now occurred prior to the campaign. but you heard her get pressed on what this means about the president's judgment, and about how much these individuals were vetted before he brought them on to join his campaign and join his effort. so she really dug in on that point. there were a number of other headlines here, she was asked whether the president is considering firing robert mueller, she reiterated that is not the plan, she also indicated she hasn't had any discussions with him about pardoning mueller or rick gates, who was indicted today -- or papadopoulos. those were a number of the top lines, i think what we're seeing here is this strategy come to the forefront, it's something we've seen from the president himself, which is to say, look, this has nothing to do with the
white house, with what we are working on? i also want to make one more point. as this bereaving was starting, we got a statement from ty cobb the president's special council, who said the white house will continue to cooperate with special counsel robert mueller. trying to tamp down the controversy swirling all of this. >> the president promising to hire only the best people. i want to bring in msnbc national security contributor michael schmidt who broke this story this morning, about the indictments that were coming down as he has broken sao many stories. >> let me get your overall take, it is, as we have become accustomed to, so fast moving that 15 different things happen from the time your paper goes to press in the morning, and the time, you know, we reached 1:00 and 2:00 hour here. what's your take? what's your take on where we are
right now with all this? >> it was my colleague who broke the story this morning. and he deserves all the credit for that. but the thing that was interesting about the press conference today was how sarah huckabee sanders basically, was trying so hard to put this distance between themselves and mueller's actions. they would have been able to do that in some ways if it had been manafort and gates. if it had just been the first things we had learned this morning. when the papadopoulos plea comes out, it changes that equation, it makes making that argument that manafort and gates were businessmen off on their own, doing their own thing. it wasn't part of the campaign, that would have been an easier sell, even though they did run the campaign, being the campaign chairman and deputy. the papadopoulos thing gives us a whole new chapter into development in this story, where we learn more about how interested the trump campaign
was in trying to get stuff from russia, this is the third instance about where we learned they tried to do this. it seems the documents that were unsealed, the campaign officials knew about this, they knew what was going on at the time. that's what really changes today and puts the white house in a difficult position. it's a very hard argument to make. >> i want to go back to that. let me go back to garek height. what do we know from inside 37 what are you hearing from the producer inside the room? >> both men have plead not guilty through their attorneys. both paul manafort and gates stood before the judge. each man plead not guilty to all dozen of these charges against
them. paul manafort had his long time attorney kevin downing by his side. rick gates was represented by a public defender. as we get more information. neither man spoke beyond to say they had taken around oath to tell the truth, saying each, i do. we're trying to get a little more information here, and waiting for what the terms of their release will be if and when they walk out of this courthouse today. >> also, in the three box we have on the screen, we have the microphones set up, do we know if we're expecting to hear from any of the lawyers or are they just there and hoping they come out? >> we expect to hear from manafort's attorney. he told reporters in a leadup to this hearing, he would come out and talk to the press afterwards. i expect we will get some of manafort's side of this story. presumably in the next half hour or so, when this hearing breaks
up. >> i want to bring in, nick akerman is former assistant watergate prosecutor as well as a partner at dorsey and whitney. we heard the press briefing, and to hear sarah sanders tell it, we heard this from other administration efficiencies tell it, these guys were peripheral, that is not true, simply by the facts of history. having said that, it does change the equation, when you have an actual guilty plea by papadopoulos. >> you have to look at the indictment of manafort, and the guilty plea of papadopoulos as one in the same. this was a powerful punch. a two-fisted punch by the prosecutors. you've got an indictment against manafort that is absolutely full proof. i mean, this indictment, you don't need any witnesses to testify. it's not based on anybody's credibility. it's all based on documents. tax documents, money transfers.
e-mails, even the false statements are based. are proven by e-mails. the only defense that anybody could have possibly had here, was to blame their account ant in some way. and even, they've taken that out with this indictment. by making it clear that manafort lied to his accountant. so there is no defense to this indictment, and then when you take that in connection with the papadopoulos plea, which shows that he was involved with the russians. that he was talking to various people who are not named in that information. that information is sketchy, as you would expect it to be. prosecutors don't want to give away the entire indication in the course of somebody pleading guilty. there are a lot of little clues in there about the campaign coordinator, campaign official, there are lots and lots of people involved. and what this is is a powerful opening shot by mueller's office that could lead straight to the president. >> i also want to bring in matt
miller from washington, former justice department spokesman from alabama, former u.s. attorney joyce vance, currently a law professor at the university of alabama. do you consider this to be a pretty foolproof case as well? how strong do you see this case being? >> i agree exactly with that analysis. because this case is prepared based on documents, it's going to be a very difficult case for manafort to rebut. and as we've just heard, really the only real defense, my accountant got it wrong has been removed from the documents themselves. it's also very interesting, i think, to note that the two conspiracy counts indicate that they involve not just manafort and gates, but others. prosecutors often use a linguistic device where they say others known and unknown to the
grand jury. we don't see that here, it means mueller knows precisely who was involved. and there could be other witnesses flipped and used against manafort. it's a forbidding environment for him to proceed without a plea deal. >> what is the conversation -- we're going to hear from paul manafort's lawyer when he comes out in a minute. what's the conversation you imagine he's having with his client? >> they're trying to figure out what kind of a defense they can present. i imagine they're trying to figure out whether there's anything at all they can offer to trade to bob mueller. i think you have to look at these two events today, both indictments of paul manafort and rick gates, and the plea agreement of george papadopoulos, as related events. what he's done here, is send a signal to all the other potential co-conspirators. you have one of two options available to you. if you have any exposure to this at all, and i ask you what
happened. you can tell me the truth, eventually, as george papadopoulos did, you can cooperate, and you can get a favorable plea agreement. or you can take the paul manafort route and resist and deflect and not tell the truth. i'm going to throw the heaviest charges i can possibly make against you. it's a very strong signal to everyone else involved in this case. >> i want to play from may fwij, when was this? may fifth, 2016, paul manafort was a guest with andrea mitchell. she asked the right questions, let's listen to the answers. >> you in the past have represented in your business life, some of these russian allies in ukraine. those who are close to vladimir putin, pro russian forces, do you're clients, past client are or current clients, conflict in anyway with donald trump -- >> i have no other clients except for donald trump, to
start with. and i'm not getting the briefings, he's getting the briefings. >> what about your past clients. >> do you have any conflicts because of people you represented in the past? >> no. i don't represent them any more. >> and the briefings would not be shared with you? >> that goes back to what sarah sanders was saying, this has knock to do with us as a campaign. >> it may have nothing to do with the campaign. but it has everything to do with the campaign. again, you have to look at this in light of the plea today, what they're trying to do is put paul manafort in a position, where he's going to be subject to many years in prison, and he's got only two choices here, he can go to trial, be convicted and go away for a long period of time, or he can cooperate with the government and tell them everything i knows about that june 9th meeting at trump tower. about his dealings with roger
stone, who recommended him to be the campaign manager. he can tell him what he knows about the efforts to get e-mails from the russians. those are his choices, it's not going to do him any good to be pardoned by donald trump either. the way this indictment is set up, it's money laundering, which is a new york state crime many so if donald trump came in here and pardoned him, he would have a choice, it's either rikers island or federal prison? which would you take? >> we had here, michael schmidt. i guess the story we were in many ways expecting, which are these two indictments and then you add in the papadopoulos guilty plea, and all of those implications. what are you hearing about how much this has shane the white house, republicans in washington. the political establishment in general. how does this change how people are looking at this, or is this more -- we're embracing ourselves for this, we knew it was coming.
>> until this point, people sort of believed this, or they didn't. the public seemed divided about it, a lot of trump's long time supporters went along with this, and said this is all a big witch hunt. it will be interesting to see whether this changes the politics of this at all. if the average person supporting trump thinks this is nonsense, sees these documents, and what mueller did, and gives it more credence than they did before. the polls came out in the past few days, he's at one of his lowest levels in his administration, will this have any impact on him going-forward, and how much of a distraction will it be? the president has shown a very difficult time dealing with distractions like this, tending to lash out, either on twitter or in interviews, and this time calls for extreme discipline with very coordinated messaging, and we haven't really heard from the president yet. we heard from him right after the manafort indictments, where he said that this was evidence that there's nothing here, and then the papadopoulos stuff came
out, and we haven't heard anything. it will be pretty interesting, and he's got this trip coming up to asia, where he will be at a podium nearly every day, giving the media a chance to ask him questions, and for this to -- for him to have to be -- confront this in a dix way about. >> in the meantime, just to let you know, and this is just coincidental. hillary clinton has a book signing in illinois right now, there's somebody who's getting their booked signed who is blocking her. she's the woman in the green jacket, there she is. while the president and other members of his administration, other people who are aligned with the president have tried to say, that's the real collusion there, hillary clinton and the russians. you also heard from sarah sanders today, saying he doesn't look for any complaining in the marching orders for the special council. he also -- she also was asked about george papadopoulos,
generally, let's play a little more of what sarah sanders had to say to reporters questions today. >> can you explain what george papadopoulos role with the campaign was? >> it was extremely limited, it was a volunteer position. and again, no activity was ever done in an official capacity on behalf of the campaign. >> that does seem to be a recurring theme, that any of the people who have been caught up in this had a minor role in the campaign. let me go to ken dilanian. what can you tell us about that? >> chris, the documents themselves contradict what sarah sanders was just telling the american public there. papadopoulos was in communication with somebody that was referred to in the documents as a campaign supervisor, unnamed, about his contacts with russian officials.
in august 2016, he got an e-mail from this campaign supervisor saying, i would encourage you to make the trip, if it is feasible, that was supposed to be an off the record meeting with russian officials. and then another point is, he's reporting back to the same campaign supervisor about his contacts with these russians. the supervisor replies, great work. that person is not named in these documents, but referred to as a campaign supervisor. >> we've seen papadopoulos make a deal, the question is, will paul manafort? i want to go to pete williams. we haven't had a chance to look at what the charges are, what paul manafort may be facing, what his lawyers are talking to him about. >> i'm happy to do that, let me run down a little bit more of what lapped inside today's brief hearing, according to our producer, who was in the hearing room in federal court.
both of whom pleaded not guilty. there's going to be a status hearing, on november second, on this thursday, at 2:00. probably to talk about detention issues. and for now, it appears that both men will be allowed out on bail. the government's requesting $10 million bail for manafort and 5 million for gates. >> how usual are those kinds of numbers? >> well, they're high, naturally, but the government is saying that they're just trying to figure out what the assets are of both these defendants after pouring through their financial records for several months, it appears that the government at least tells the judge, they still don't have a good handle on what these -- the assets of these two defendants are. and they also ask the judge, and we don't think the judge has ruled on this yet. they ask that they be confined at home, until they can work out the detention agreement, that
they would be confined to their homes, and allowed to leave only to seek doctors or lawyers. >> would that mean they would have an ankle bracelet necessarily? >> haven't -- don't know the answer to that, yes. that was one question that the judge asked. the government was asking for electronic monitoring. sounds like there's a brief break in the hearing while the judge takes those requests under advisement. if the judge is going to come back, that means we're not going to hear from their lawyers from a while yet at the stakeout position outside the federal courthouse. back to the charges -- >> can i just -- i know i asked the question about the charges, but i wan the to go back to what's happening inside there right now. >> sure. >> for those of us whose experience with these kinds of things has to do with watching too many episodes of law and
order. are the lawyers going back into the judges chambers? are they having an out of the courtroom conversation about these things? how is the judge coming to this conclusion? >> the judge is probably in her chambers by herself with her law clerks, the lawyers are probably note with her. they've made their requests in open court, so the judge now has to consider them, that's our understanding, and then we'll come back in and make a decision on the bail request, and the circumstances of confinement. you know, these are, what the government says here, the reason they're asking for these extraordinary limitations is, they say certainly in manafort's case, these are people with means. they're people who have a lot of money, and a lot of foreign connection connections. they know a lot of people overseas, in a lot of cases, they say they're a flight risk.
that's why they want these measures imposed upon them, while they're awaiting trial. the basic rule is, you're entitled to bail, unless the government can make a case you're a danger to the community. that's what the judge now has to consider, chris. >> he's considering this in the context of those charges, if you could just briefly remind folks what they're facing? >> the government says they were doing consulting work for the president of ukraine. and making millions and millions of dollars, put that money in offshore banks to make sure the united states would never know about it, so they wouldn't have to pay taxes on it, they wouldn't have to report that income and they wouldn't have to register as foreign agents.
they said, no. the indictment says that's not true. they were lobbying congress about sanctions in ukraine and other measures. involving ukraine and the government. it's serious charges, if they were to be convicted on all these counts, they would potentially face some serious federal prison time. they know this is a serious case against them. it also raises the question, because the case is so serious, is it an opportunity for robert mueller to try to persuade them to be more cooperative with the investigators, in return for some leniency, the government may drop charges or appeal to the judge for leniency and sentencing. that's all way down the road.
>> pete williams, thanks so much for that. everyone else who can stick with us, please do. 10 million and $5 million will be okayed by the judge. up next, we want to take a look at mueller's methods. what do these first indictments reveal about where the russia probe could go from here, and what does today's news about paul manafort tell us about how far and wide the special council is willing to go to uncover the truth. our recent online sales success seems a little... strange?nk na. ever since we switched to fedex ground business has been great. they're affordable and fast... maybe "too affordable and fast." what if... "people" aren't buying these books online,
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it's been an incredible day of breaking news. we're waiting to hear from paul man in a fosht's lawyers, you see that those microphones have been set up, there's been a request for $10 million, $5 million bail for manafort and gates respectively. should they have electronic surveillance if they're confined to their home. should they have one of those ankle bracelets. mike veicaro wabz inside the courtroom. give us a sense of what it was like inside that courtroom. give us a sense of the players who were there.
the level of tension and what you heard? >> as you might imagine, it was a packed hearing, a packed courtroom, reporters had been lined up in the hallway for some three hours prior to this, waiting to get in when we were finally allowed in, more waiting as the prosecutors had a chat, all smiles. after a while, ago, the magistrate judge entered the courtroom shortly after that. the door opened in the back of the courtroom, and here paul manafort and rick gates as well. they came in with their hands behind their backs, both dressed in dark blue shoots. white shirts looking formal. sat very quietly at the table, because the magistrate, the judge -- the magistrate informed them that anything they might say could be used against them, they were under no requirement to speak, it's a preliminary arraignment for the sole purpose
of hearing the plea, which we did hear. not guilty from both of them. and also, setting the terms for their release, if there is to be a release. and you have reported the details of that. at one point, of course, both were required, no surprise here, to provide you with the color, the magistrate asked them to take the oath, the clerk read the oath do you swear to tell the truth? both raised their right hand. the packed courtroom appeared to be family of one or both men many of them waiting to get inside -- one of the stranger things we have to figure out. they're still inside that courtroom right now, we have nbc personnel inside still listening to these proceedings. why did rick gates have a court appointed attorney with him. a man identified as mr. boss by
the court officials. gates has yet to hire a private attorney, it was revealed. that was the seen here, a status hearing has been set for this thursday, already. a status hearing whered defendant's are not required to show up as is commonly the case. but will be before the judge, an obama appointee, confirmed 97-0 in the united states senate, her name is amy berman jackson, she will be the judge presiding over this case as it moves forward. >> i san want to go quickly to you. i'm shocked to hear that information that rick gates has no private attorney at this point. are you surprised? what does that tell you? >> it's visual unusual. i would expect he would have lawyered up, this may indicate that he's had only minimal contact with mueller's prosecutors in the leadup to this indictment. it may simply mean that he has not yet had the opportunity to
finalize an agreement with council, i would not expect him to be represented by a public defender for very long, simply because he has financial resources that will be disqualifying, and i think we'll see him with private council as soon as he can perhaps find someone who does not already have a client in this entire gaggle of people who are now involved. >> it's been -- it may seem longer or shorter, depending on your perspective. nearly 5 1/2 months to oversee this russia investigation. he's not spoken publicly. the former fbi director, has made few public appearances, but today's indictments, do give us insight into where this russia probe is heading, where mueller and his team are going next. >> i want to take a closer look at this. a former assistant director for counter intelligence at the fbi, who has worked closely with robert mueller. let me just first get your overall take on what we've seen today, which is two d.c.s and
one plea deal. >> it's been an intriguing day, chris. because i'm a counter intelligence professional, i'm looking at all this through a counter intelligence lens. what i'm seeing are russian fingerprints, on both the papadopoulos guilty plea, which is a classic guilty plea, it's secret, we don't know about it, it happened three weeks ago, and i'm seeing russian fingerprints in the indictments and charges unfolding with manafort and with gates. why? >> in the case of papadopoulos, we're seeing him meeting with a so-called russian professor. the russian professor introduces him to a russian ministry of foreign affairs official. beknow that russian mfa is often a cover position for russian intelligence. we also see him introduced to a woman who claims to be a relative of vladimir putin, we were told in the proceedings here that she's not. this all smacks of undercover operatives and cutouts from the russian intelligence service. if we move on to manafort and
gates we see themmed advising a pro russian candidate in ukraine for president. we see strong ties between that ukrainian party and the kremlin, $17 million flowing to manafort and gates. where does it go? cypress? who uses bank accounts in cypress to launder money? the russian intelligence services. there's russian fingerprints all over this right now. the folks suggests this has nothing to do with the campaign are really misguided. >> so, there also may be paid to say what the white house or, you know, the campaign had wanted them to say. having said that, you know how robert mueller works. and we've been describing this on this set with our legal analysts as sort of the end of the beginning. now, we go into the next phase, right? you have a cooperating witness, you have two people facing many, many years in prison. knowing how robert mueller works, what are his next steps?
how do you view these three in terms of what it means for what happens after? >> this is an impressive strategy by bob mueller. we're all focused on manafort and gates, here comes this cooperator who's secretly plead guilty three weeks ago, i can't emphasize enough how important papadopoulos is to this. he holds the keys to cooperation here. manafort and gates have to realize that the jig is up, right? papadopoulos is talking about russians, money, influence, meetings, you know, in april, he told the campaign manager for trump, that they want to meet with us, they have dirt on hillary. in june, we see a meeting occur in trump tower with trump's older son and campaign advisers. it's all going to be now about cooperation, and there's nothing like facing 20 or more years in prison to cause someone to think about cooperating. manafort's not a young plan. he's looking at the potential of
really spending his remaining active years in federal prison, not a good proposition. >> when you look at the team that robert mueller has assembled. for example, andrew wiseman, he's expected to be an expert on colleagues. the go to guy when it comes to appeals cases. greg andreas who once managed a justice department program, targeting illegal foreign bribery. if you have papadopoulos as a cooperating witness, what do you have him doing? >> if it were my cooperating witness, don't forget, he started cooperating in july. i'd have him start playing dial a crook and meet a crook, wearing a wire, so he could get people to basically admit to all the stuff that he's telling the government. he would be trying to cooperate and get as much evidence as he could for the government, so that he gets the zero years in prison that he has under the federal sentencing guidelines.
the more brownie points he can rack up in terms of his cooperation, the more like letter it is he will never spend a day in prison. >> matt miller, what are you looking for next? >> that's exactly right, where is this investigation going to go in terms of manafort and gates deciding whether it is in their interest to cooperate. they're looking at very long sentences. we would be wrong to assume these are the last counts we will see from these two. possible fraud by paul manafort, possible overseas foreign corrupt practices act violations, in relation to a contract he got in ukraine for some private business. there are a number of potential charges. this may be mueller's first shot at it, it may be a superseding indictment come down the road later, that will even add further potential jail time to him. he's looking at a tough case
against him, if he has nick at all to offer prosecutors against, not just the president, but the president's son, the president's son in law, others on the trump campaign, it would be very much in his interest to start talking as soon as possible. >> we say it and we say it again, we live in a country where you're innocent until proven guilty. if you want to read the indictment, you see how very specific these charges are. what the paperwork is, that backs it up. this is a paper trail that is very, very deep and very wide. matt miller, nick akerman, thank you all very much. for decades, the president has been nicknamed teflon don, despite the controversies or chaos around him, nothing sticks. what about now? can he distance himself from paul manafort? he certainly is trying. we have more on that coming un. (avo) when you have type 2 diabetes, you manage your a1c, but you also have a higher risk of heart attack or stroke.
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jury in washington. joining me now to talk more about this, we have our legal corresponde correspondent. let's talk about the argument we heard from sarah sanders and what the white house position on this is, in terms of manafort and gates. this all happened precampaign. >> the white house is arguing that and donald trump's tweets are focusing only on the manafort/gates piece. it's a focus to try to say this is all pre2016, and thus, really not our problem, and just people we met that had old problems, whatever they may be. just two points on that, number one, that may not ultimately be the case, the time goes into 2016 and 2017, we don't know what all of those records will lead to, and whether they are part of some broader plot. second, even if the white house is right, that this all is
precampaign, that's bads news, because if that were true, that would mean that bob mueller has the authority to pursue these other cases, and rod rosen stein didn't intervene, and it's open season. >> could be broad, but it looks broader than we may have thought, in the meantime, the part two is, the president and manafort weren't that close anyway. >> well, the president trying to distance himself through a spokesperson today, let's be clear. the president and paul manafort, the 30 year relationship, they were introduced by roy comb, the famous lawyer for mccarthy in the '50s, they've known each other a long time, and in the scope of things, $3.8 million apartment in trump tower may not be the most expensive apartment in the building. paul manafort bought a $3.8 million apartment in trump tower while he was doing the ukraine
work. you were saying something else i didn't know, he used the fact that he purchased an apartment in the building as a way to get hired on the campaign. >> we also obtained the information. it says, i'll work for free, i'm not attached to washington. he says he doesn't have baggage. we'll see how that looks today. and he puts his apartment number in the letter. >> amazing. and then you and your investigative team have this old individual kree of paul manafort? >> yeah, it's interesting. >> look at that? when is this? >> it's from his representation when he was working for ronald reagan. he was -- he ran the south for reagan during his campaign. by the way, we have some delicious video of ronald reagan saying, i want to make america great again, which today blows your mind. here he is with the campaign. we have some wonderful old video of him talking throughout the years, and in fact testifying in front of congress about his
lobbying work and saying, for the purpose of this conversation, yes, there was influence peddling, we'll put some of it on "nightly news" tonight. it's fascinating, when you put it all together, looking backwards. it seems in many ways this day may well have been inevitable. >> cynthia mcfadden, ari mel better. thanks to both of you. california democratic congressman, jackie spears is a member of the house intelligence committee, which is conducting its own russia investigation. always good to see you congresswoman, how are you? >> i'm great, chris, how are you? >> interesting today, what do you make of the indictments? >> well, the indictments were, i think, predictable. months ago, i thought it would be tax evasion before it was anything else. that's often times how people get tripped up, i think what's really important to point out, though, is that manafort was the chairman of his campaign during the critical months in march
through august when we have the heightened awareness of russian interference in the election. and i think as we look back on this, he becomes very important in our review of whether or not the trump campaign was involved with russia in trying to undermint election. >> and then you also have a cooperating witness. and you understand exactly how investigations can work. you have an investigation by your committee, there are other congressional committees, what did you make when you heard, which surprised a lot of people, that robert mueller had a cooperating witness, who was on an advisory board for donald trump. >> well, you know, remember that george papadopoulos was the person that then candidate trump identified as part of his foreign policy expertise. so whether he was a volunteer or not, he remembered his name, and he doesn't remember many people's names, in an effort to try and give credibility to his
campaign. so sure, this witness is inning singing, they may be trying to get paul manafort to sing as well. and in so doing, be able to reduce their potential sentence. >> i don't know if you had a chance to listen. sarah huckabee sanders had this to say a short time ago. today's announcement has nothing to do with the president, the president's campaign, or campaign activity. the real collusion scandal as we said several times before, has everything to do with the clinton campaign, fusion gps and russia. there's clear evidence of the clinton campaign including with russia to spread disinformation to smear the president. saying from day one, there's been no evidence of trump/russia collusion. >> no evidence of trump/russia collusion. if there is collusion to be looked at it has to be with the hillary clinton campaign and paul manafort was a minor
player, which you addressed in the campaign. what do you make of the whole white house line of defense? >> well, i'm going to be amused when you replay those sentences from sarah huckabee sanders, when the next shoe drops, because i don't think we have -- >> today's announcement has nothing to do with the president. has nothing to two with -- >> sorry, they're accidentally playing that again. go ahead. >> i think it's pretty obvious that there have been efforts to included. the meeting that took place in trump jr.'s office, manafort was there. it was not as the president tried to frame, something about adoptions. it was about information on hillary clinton and the majitsky act. he did tweet or make a notation of that, at the time of that meeting. there are subsequent references by roger stone.
and another one by the head of cambridge analytic ka in august about wanting to work with julian assange and wikileaks. wikileaks was an interrog tory for russia. and clearly there was a trifecta there at some point or another. >> to be continued, congresswoman jackie spears. thank you so much. always great to talk to you. >> great talking to you too. you'd think she'd have a thing or two to say about today's indictments, but so far, silence from hillary clinton. one of her senior advisers in 2016 gives me his two cents next.
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it was just over a year ago that then nominee donald trump expressed admiration for paul manafort and rick gates. one day after the republican national convention in cleveland ended. >> and paul manafort has done an amazing job. he's here someplace. where's paul? paul manafort. [ applause ] oh, good. you made it. paul manafort has done a fantastic job. and all of paul's people. paul brought on staff, and we really do, we have a great staff of talented people. come on up, rick.
[ applause ] so we have a great group of people, and we have a group of people that really wants to win and i think knows how to win, and we've also been winning all of our lives. >> earlier a spokesperson for hillary clinton had no reaction from the indictment stemming from robert mueller's investigation. there you see her in illinois, part of a book signing tour. press covering that said she'd take no questions. but pointing a finger at clinton and the democrats and with papadopol papadopolos' indictment, who had "dirt" on hillary clinton, wee seal where it stands. a former adviser to the trump presidential campaign, and a senior adviser for hillary clinton's 2016 campaign and an msnbc political analyst. back with us, a "new york times"
reporter and misnbt securisnbc contributor. and michael, start with you. your reaction to the indictment to the cooperating witness today? >> disappointed to see my ole friends paul manafort and rick gates in this today, and i see also the charges leveled against them and stacked up against them as high as they could be stacked included nothing about russian collusion and nothing about donald trump and i think it was a good day from that perspective, of the white house -- >> you don't see when the read the statement on the cooperating witness that papadopolos, who had these meetings and lied about them related to russia, you don't consider that troubling for the campaign? especially given now we have a widely circulated photograph of the meeting what sarah huckabee sanders tried to dismiss a group of policy advisers, you saw pop
l papadopolos sitting amongst them? >> sure. he was brought on after paul manafort came onboard. a team that never really landed on the campaign, never really advised the president much and never ever got paid. of course, the president was in a meeting but papadopolos never heard about him. a very junior staffer, as it looks a volunteer. >> the president, he's sitting there at the table with the president and asked about him by the "washington post," the president called him an excellent guy. >> right. he head rhys naread his name fr. he doesn't know george papadopolos. and if you're judging who the
president knows by pictures he's taken with people, he's apparently got about 2 million friends after this campaign. >> and over the years, certainly donald trump and as a candidate took a lot of picture, but not many sat at a table as an adviser had tommy. let to limb. joel, we'll go to you. supporters say this doesn't prove collusion, doesn't even hint of collusion and if there is going to be collusion, they ought to be looking at hillary clinton and your campaign, what your campaign did in relation to russia. what do you say to that? >> first of all, that's complete nonsense. >> linking you to the steele dossier? >> happens to be a british citizen, steele. and no russians involved. read papadopolos' not just indictment but his confession. he agrees to the facts. i suggest michael read it also. he was communicating with senior campaign officials. they are not named in there but
it's clear they have his e-mails to those people. they're encouraging him to meet with the russians. he is telling them in april the russians have dirt on hillary. "they have thousands of e-mails." in june, about six weeks later, kushner and company suddenly go and meet with a russian lawyer in trump tower. in july donald trump says, wikileaks, russia, if you're listening i hope you find those thousands of e-mails and release them. there is a pattern of the trump campaign engaging with russians for a very specific reason. that is what collusion is. >> michael, i want to give awe chance to answer that. is there a pattern here and are you at least nervous by what joel points out? there are obviously at least three people involved in the campaign as advisors who are not named by name but named as advisers who obviously were having conversations about this? >> they were exchanging e-mails with papadopolos and probably phone calms here and there with junior staff, but i'm really
happy that they brought the papadopolos information out today, because you see george papadopolos trying multiple times to introduce russians to the campaign and you see paul manafort smack him down for it. this was a junior campaign adviser, not in a position to get to the president who tried to come in with russian guests, who was rebuffed. i'm glad they released it. today it shows actually even more clearly no collusion on the trump campaign. >> we have a little bit of sound i want to play for you now. we've lyned listened to what s huckabee sanders said but this is the president talking about opposition research. >> it's called opposition research or even research into your opponent. i've had many people. only been in politics two years but have had many people call up, oh, gee. we have information on this factor or this person or frankly hillary -- that's very standard in politics. >> he obviously was talking
about the opposition research, the dossier, the june 9th meeting. very standard, nevertheless it is going to be something that people are going to continue to question about the money that was spent. we still don't know how much money your campaign spent. do you want to give clarity toy that right now? >> i think it has no relevance we lost the campaign. nothing came of that. that was standard opposition research. that's what goes on. that is very different than a foreign government -- >> not true. >> -- interfering with our election and campaign officials, be they minor e-mailing with senior campaign officials, and telling them what information the russians had. that is completely different. i think today it's ludicrous to suggest this is anything but a horrible day for donald trump and the trump campaign. >> michael is it anything but a horrible day? it's pretty hard to imagine that somebody who used to be the head of your campaign, however much you want to marginalize him or say how little he worked for you, if they're under
indictment, can you possibly say it's a good day for donald trump? >> i think this investigation is bogus, in fact, and i think the charges stacked up against paul manafort and rick gates will eventually be knocked down. and there's nothing today about collusion between the campaign and the president. you see a junior campaign aide who was rebuffed at every move. now, when you talk about the clinton campaign, hiring a cutout lawyer, who hired a british spy, who paid russian spies for russian intelligence information, that sounds a lot like collusion. so let's get this straight. i think both need to be investigated. >> i want to thank you very much, michael, for that. jill, thanks to you. michael schmidt, go to you. because we are waiting, should make a point, we are waiting to hear what's going to happen to these two guys and whether or not they'll get bail. meantime, what's the next story line you're looking at? >> interesting to see what kind of a posture manafort takes here. seemed from the beginning he has wanted to fight the government on this. his allies says he has nothing
to give up. there's no, no incriminating things he has about anyone and he will have to fight this to the ends of the earth. it will be interesting to see if he comes out, if he speaks publicly, what he says, how he addresses these things. these are difficult things to refute. pretty much all of it is based on hard documents. so i don't know how he can really push back on that, but i guess we'll see has here. >> we will watch and see. michael schmidt, thanks to you. that wraps up the hour for me. i'm chris jansing. ali velshi picks up the continuing breaking news coverage here on msnbc. >> quite a day and not gotten to basic matters like what's the situation with bail? will these guys post bail and get out? thank you. i'm ali velshi. we're awaiting to hear from the attorneys of paul manafort and rick gates. if they come to the mike we'll bring it to you live. we just got a statement from rick gates' attorney. the