tv The 11th Hour With Brian Williams MSNBC October 31, 2017 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT
concepts. and we've lived with this before. we felt the pain before. we feel the pain today. but we go forward together and we go forward stronger than ever. we're not going to let them win. >> governor andrew comeau gets tonight's "last word." "the 11th hour" starts now. good evening, once again, from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. i'm ali velshi in for brian williams. today an act of terrorism here in new york city. the worst since the september s 11th attacks. eight people are dead, at least a dozen more are injured after a man intentionally drove a pickup truck down a bicycle path filled with cyclists and pedestrians. of those killed, six have been identified. five were tourists from argentina, one from belgium. according to the nypd, the suspect rented the truck in new
jersey and drove to lower manhattan. that's where he entered a bike path just as high school was letting out for the day. on a sunny halloween afternoon. he drove at least ten blocks south, mowing down pedestrians before finally slamming into a school bus on chamber street, not far from the world trade center. the man got out of the truck. law enforcement officials say he yelled allahu akbar and was holding a paint ball gun and pellet gun. that's when police shot him and took him into custody. the investigation just hours old, but here's what we know about the suspect so far. nbc as confirmed he is 29-year-old sayfullo saipov. he had been living in new jersey. saipov has so far refused to answer any questions from his hospital bed. for more we turn to nbc news correspondent ron allen whoo le down at lower manhattan, been there since the news broke earlier today.
he's at the scene of today's attacks. ron, what has happened since you've been there? >> reporter: well, ali, the police are still combing this nearly mile-long crime scene trying to learn everything they can about what happened and, of course, they're also trying to learn everything they can about the suspect and what motivated him, whether he might have had help, and, of course, they're trying to take what they can from this. they're still asking the public for any video, any pictures they have of this so they can do everything possible to prevent something like this from happening again. remember, this is happening at 3:00 in the afternoon in h a very densely-populated area of the city. there are two elementary schools, there's a high school nearby. there's a commercial area. there are tourists around. it's just teeming with people. it's amazing that there were not more people killed or injured it in all this. here is how an eyewitness described what he saw. >> i looked down and i see a truck going down toward chamber street. i'm saying what's going on? as i go down more, i see two -- he's in the bike lane.
clearly in the bike lane. i see, when i go down, i see two gentleman laying right there in the bike lane with tire marks across their body. you could tell that they're not here no more. >> reporter: just an awful scene to see. there were eight people killed and at last count, about a dozen injured. some still at the hospital. unclear what the extent of their injuries are. tonight, a police presence, particularly at events. a huge gathering at greenwich village, traditional annual festival there. police are telling people to get on with their lives. there are police everywhere. a common occurrence in new york city, but, again, stepped up tonight because of concerns about some other attack following on. nothing like that has happened, of course. but, again, new yorkers are trying to get on with their lives. police investigating every inch of this crime scene, again, trying to piece together the motivations of this individual, how he carried it out, just what was going on at the time. the bike path runs along west street. it's essentially an urban
highway. there's some areas that are protected with guardrails to protect bikers from traffic, there are some areas in this part of the city that are also protected against terrorist attack. we're not far from the world trade center. it's just a couple blocks away. again, the investigation continuing through the night on into tomorrow as new york recovers from this. stunned but, again, getting on with life as we know it here. >> and for those who know new york, west street as you go north becomes the west side highway. ron, it's a city trying too g i on with things but hard when it strikes normalcy, riding down a bike path. i'm joined by eugene o'donnell, now a professor of law and police studies at john j. college of criminal justice, and james cavanaugh, a retired special agent in charge for the atf and now an msnbc law enforcement analyst. jim, you and i were together on tv several hours ago when this news first broke. one of the interesting things
that new yorkers wonder about is we talk about the soft targets. we look at the examples over the last year and a half of vehicle attacks across europe. and we wonder whether or not these soft targets can be hardened. is there a way to keep people who will kill others with a truck and a knife away from p pedestrians and cyclists? >> well, there's no absolute way to prevent every attack, but we sometimes fall victim, ali to that idea and it freezes us up from doing things we can do. if you look at the attacks in nice on the promenade, brussels, even the london bridge, those pedestrian malls have been fortified with ballards and blocking mechanisms. cities have to assess if thing is a pedestrian mall, if it's only a pedestrian mall, only bicyclis
bicyclists, that should be fortified with balllards, if yo can't do that, big rocks. it can't be done on every sidewalk and every crowd. that's not possible. no one is going to purport that. we're talking about a place that is a known pedestrian area. those places should be. we can't have officers sitting there all day with sand trucks and like if it's a special event. but, you know, just some rocks a few hundred feet apart on a 14-block bike and pedestrian mall will prevent a vehicle for driving through. we're lucky, ali, this wasn't a dump truck or some other large vehicle because the terrorist would have smashed that school bus, might have killed more people. it's horrible for those eight families and all the new yorkers, you know, we're all new yorkers tonight. >> that's the truck we're looking at. gene, we're here in rockefeller center, it's like that, a pedestrian area that has ballards up there, can't drive a truck through it, times square another example, columbus circle
l. it can be done. would be very difficult. we saw an example last year of somebody driving into times square. it is harder to do that that sort of thing. you can't pull your car up and get into the pedestrian areas without doing a great deal of damage. >> our city, ironically, the pedestrianization of the city because of the need to get traffic, to reduce traffic fatalities, created times square which is basically a hard target at this point. there are bollards there. this may be, in fact, why the guy picked the west side rather than midtown. it's certainly harder to do it in times square. i agree total we with jly with . you can't protect everything but doesn't mean you can't up the game significantly. some will be with traffic engineering, some will be security designs. flowing, traffic flows, calming traffic, slowing it down. there are more creative ways, and europe has, in fact, invested a lot just in london, london bridge, westminster bridge there, that has been the boll bollards have been installed.
this unfortunately is the way of the future. the good news, if there's such a thing from this, perhaps the need to go to vehicles reflects a tightening in access to firearms. >> it right, and a lowering in sophistication of the actual attack. jim, it doesn't need as many people involved. jim, i hate to think of this, but every time i think of a terrorist attack in the last year, you and i have been involved in covering it together. let's talk about that. as these things get lower in sophistication, because isil is inspiring people to not only use vehicles but to leave a note in them, do we learn anything with each one of these events? do we -- do we come away with any lessons? what does the investigation into this look like given it's not as sophisticated, we think, as these prior events that involved lots of people and lots of planning? >> you know, i think this one, ali, is going to look like others have looked before. most likely he's inspired on the internet. he could have been inspired or handled by agents of influence as we call them who may be
people he's come into personal contact with, but most likely it's the internet, tvs tit's th. we've got to work harder to counter that. the government, state department, have a good program. they improved it over the years. we theed to need to do better, people in it, listen to those people working to encounter the extremist message. it's all tied in with the wars in the middle east, with raqqah falling, with mosul falling, with issis spreading out. you know they want more and more death. >> likely see more of it because they can't seek refuge in syria and iraq with the ease that they used to. >> oh, exactly, you're going to see more of it. that's what they're pushing out because that's all they can do. they don't have an army on the ground they can use. they have to get on the web and just put out this horrible mass murder plan which unfortunately people grab onto. that's a human condition, eugene knows what i'm talking about. we always try to counter that. a lot of those plots get stopped but eventually some of them get through.
i say it's war on all fronts, ali. you got to do the small things like you just talked about with the bollards and do the intellectual and big things with government and nsa and state department and our military. you got to -- it's war on all fronts. you can't do one or the other. >> yeah. >> you got to spread that out. the people in the community, like the uzbek community that may know this guy or close to him, interesting to see if anybody had an inkling or heard anything. people can keep this stuff close and never tell their neighbors or friends also. the terrorists school them, don't tell your family, don't tell your friends. >> yeah. >> you know, just talk with us. so it's diabolical. it's sad for these eight families. it's a horrible night. >> it's a new discipline that we're all learning now. this violent extremism. tonight was the halloween parade. it's a very big deal in new york. if i weren't working, i might be out there enjoying with new yorkers. we got thanksgiving coming up. nypd's gone a good job since 9/11 of keeping everybody safe on these events. i know within the nypd, within
law enforcement, and at the joint terrorism task force, there's always a great deal of tension and trepidation going into any of these events, fourth of july, memorial day, new year's eve. what's worked so well that we haven't seen this all that often? >> well, there hay have been de serious about this. they put the resources in and to bootstrap on what jim said, one thing we're going to have to reckon with is first line of officers, street cops, cops in the radio cars, we're going to have to deal with their training and their ability. once again, they've been called on today. this officer responded heroically. the chelsea incident, we had a linden, new jersey, top. the tsarnaev brothers, we had a campus cop. all the specialized units aside -- >> every cop is on duty all the time. >> every cop in the so-called war on terrorism, they are going to be the front line. we're going to have to reckon with that and make sure they have every possible tactical advantage because they're going to be rolling up way before the fbi and all these other special -- >> that has been happening, by the way, we've been covering this on nbc that new york police
in particular, but a lot of these police departments that are involved with the joint terrorism task force have really upped their game and their ability to respond to things. >> no question about it. you are in a city here that's got enormous amount of resources, federal, state and local, and on events like thanksgiving, they're as good as you get. nobody should have hesitation in this city in term of their ability to protect major public assemblages. the rest of the public can afford to not worry about this, law enforcement has to worry -- >> when i say up their game, the game was pretty good but they have undergone new and more sophisticated training to deal with the -- >> tomorrow's another day. >> all right, guys, thanks very much. eugene o'donnell, james cavanaugh, thanks nr being with us to work through this. coming up, reaction to today's attack from the white house. plus was this the work of a lone wolf? what we know about what led to this deadly terror attack in new york. our live coverage continues right after this break. >> very worrisome. after all that's happening in the world, you just want to hug your son. that's all we want.
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let me be clear based on the information we have at this moment, this was an act of terror, and a particularly cowardly act of terror aimed at innocent civilians, aimed at people going about their lives who had no idea what was about to hit them. >> new york mayor bill de blasio calling today's attack an act of terror a few hours after it. the president wrote on twitter "we must not allow isis to return or endnter our country after defeating them in the middle east and elsewhere."
"i just ordered homeland security to step up our already extreme program. being politically correct is fine but not for this." want to bring in our panel, m l malcom nantz. a foreign correspondent for "the new york times" covering islamic extremism. jere jeremy bash a former chief of staff at the cia and pentagon. all three are msnbc analysts. i am grateful to you all for being here tonight on a complicated night ken we got a lot to dissect. these things are becoming familiar to us. we have specificity about how they go. this one went the way they go. in particular, it went the way isis prescribes, has been prescribing in the last year or so that these attacks should go. give me some of the details on how it compares to what we've seen. >> sure. for some time now, al qaeda before isis, now isis, has been calling for car attacks. in november of last year, they
put out their magazine where they were specific, use a truck, not an suv, make sure to run over the people until you can't drive any further, get out on foot, use a secondary arm, a knife or gun to continue killing people until you have an altercation with the police where you're supposed to be killed. they said to leave a note. >> actually specific a to leave a note in the car or truck. >> they said to throw it out the wind d window which is difficult if you're driving. if they were acting on the inspiration or orders of the islamic state, he carried it out very closely. >> except he didn't get killed. is that problematic for the people that inspire these things? >> it is in a sense that isis in general does not claim the attack if the attacker is in custody. for example, the chelsea bomber. the chelsea bomber caused at least two dozen injuries when he set off his bomb. his diary later that was found
on him the next day, stained with his blood, actually mentioned the spokesman of isis and official inside isis that was the most vocal in calling for attacks overseas. they had every reason to claim it and yet they didn't. he was in custody. >> interesting. >> is he was in custody and that seems to be the pallttern. >> so far that's by the book. malcolm, the idea he's in ing a not. is it a very good thing he's in custody? are intelligence and investigators going to be able to get something out of him? >> it's very good that he's in custody for us, issen j is, of course, on the other hand wouldn't agree except for the fact they prefer you dead. they prefer you to be a martyr. but they also like the idea that you're still in the face of the infidels. he's going to be undergoing an interrogation by a high-value interrogation group. and they are going -- we've already heard early on that he's not going to be getting his rights because this could be a case of continuing terrorism incident.
so we don't know whether this was a first attack that was spontaneous, obviously it was planned in some way, he came up here, he got a vehicle, came through the tunnel, carried out an attack. or whether this is going to be the first of a chain of attacks and they're going to be trying to get as much information as possible out of him on his -- you know, on the hospital bed to see whether he's the talkative type of jihadi, we've had many of these people, people i've been around, they brag. and then you have, you know, the closed-up type of terrorist who won't say a word, will just smile -- >> imagine to be on a suicide, watch, to make sure he doesn't try to kill himself while in hospital. >> i think if there's any risk of that, it's he will try to go and get a gun. the whole purpose of him carrying the air -- the paint ball gun and the b.b. gun was to die as a martyr in the face of the -- you know, of what he considers his opposition. >> some good police work today. jeremy, let me ask you about the tweet that the president sent out about increasing the extreme
vetting. we know this guy was a green card holder. he's been in the united states since 2010. we certainly don't have enough information on how he got in and what would have been on his application to get into the united states to know whether extreme vetting would have helped in this case. what do you make of this? >> there already is extreme vetting for people who have launch permanent residence status. green card status. in fact, the president's travel ban would not apply to green card holders and not apply to people from uzbekistan. i'm not sure what the president means. i think, frankly, he's just looking for an i'm tough on terrorism headline in the wake of this heartbreaking incident in manhattan. really the big question i think, ali, is whether or not this individual was tied in any way to an international terrorist cell. it appears because he conducted a vehicular attack that he has followed the model that we've seen in europe and elsewhere in barcelona recently, obviously in london, in france as well, where he acts s alone, maybe inspiredy
isis propaganda. i don't think we necessarily can leap to that conclusion yet without running his travel records, running his credit card numbers, looking at his banking activity, looking at who he's been in communication with, looking at his e-mail, his phone records and figuring out his community there in new jersey, fig yuring out whether or not there was any connections between him and people who might have told him to do this. >> and wnbc spoke to people in paterson, new jersey, spoke to somebody who apparently knew something about him. let's listen to what we know. >> he did not apparently go to the mosque around the corner very much. people here who are very faithful, who do go to the mosque who talk about peace and love for the united states say that they saw him maybe once or twice in the mosque that's just a few yards away from me, but they would see him in front of the building where he lives. this brick small apartment building where he would socialize with several others. they believe they were all talking the language of
uzbekistan which, of course, has its own language at this point. >> wnbc's brian thompson in paterson, new jersey. how do we process all this information? he's not, as jeremy said, this is not a guy who came in recently. he's not a guy who would have been subject -- he would have been vetted if he had a green card. and would not have been subject to a travel ban. how do we make sense of this? >> first of all, wie know he cae in 2010 before the islamic state became the islamic state as we know it today. the idea this guy, unless there's other travel we don't know about, the idea this person came from over there to over here sent by the islamic state seems to be erroneous, okay? what we're looking at is somebody who at least according to the facts that have been displayed to us tonight was radicalized here. now the question is, was he radicalized by himself by going to isis telegram channels that malcolm and i are also in and taking in the propaganda on his own or was there a digital connection with isis?
was he speaking to an isis handler? more and more in the cases we're seeing includie ining case in b which is similar to this one where a truck was used to ram into people, what we're seeing is cyber coaching by the islamic state. they are speaking to somebody who is in libya, who is in iraq, who is in syria, who's possibly elsewhere and who gives them ideas and helps them translate their ideology into an act of violence. >> and malcolm, this is what we're going to have to -- we've talked about this many times, again, the three of us get stuck quhe whenever there's one of these things trying to make sense of things that are hard to make sense of. these are where these things are going. people radicalized because they're fighting overseas or radicalizing themselves or getting cyber coaching, it takes a different approach to try to combat this. >> yeah, you're absolutely right. what you're looking at is the future of isis and al qaeda. al qaeda maintains itself as a covert organization operating in a terrorist underground. isis, on the other hand, was this large expeditionary army
that just had their heart, central caliphate, destroyed. what they're doing is what i call the ghost jihad. >> you used an expression the other day, when we were on tv together, like stepping on a ball of mercury. >> a ball of mercury. what we saw in iraq. when i was fighting in iraq. you step on the ball of mercury, it breaks up and goes into a million different pieces and actually congeals, conforms, comes back together. once you lifted that. mercury has to be sopped up. one little section at a time. what we're seeing with isis is when that pressure came down, you suddenly saw foreign fighters in marawi in the southern philippines, isis suddenly popping up in the south which was al qaeda's terrain, you know, niger, for example, that 50-man ambush, is technically unprecedented for them. you know, when they got pushed out of libya, that's where these guys went. you know, boko haram broke up. all of these things are o
occurring but they're doing the virtual command and control as rukmini said a moment ago. we're handling you, we're going to give you ideas, we're going to inspire you. this could just be one person who's been tasked out to handle the eastern seaboard of the united states, but when you come into those, you know, dark web chat rooms, these guys are looking for talent. and they don't care how amateur you are, they will carry it out, you know, whatever act out that you can carry out. >> jeremy, to your point, you know, malcomn, rukmini and i have had these conversations so many times that the they can't be making it up. this is not the kind of thing that the constant ongoing drumbeat of extreme vetting is going to solve. it is just more sophisticated than that. >> it is. it requires a lot of careful work with our partners and allies overseas because most of these individuals have some connection back to another country. we don't know if that's the case here yet. i think it remains to be seen. we've seen that in the cases in europe, and we need to actually upgrade their capabilities, their law enforcement, their intelligence capabilities. we have to train them, we have to do that all across north
africa and europe and the middle east. it's a huge challenge, and here at home, i would just end by saying we have to make sure that the cure is not worse than the disease. we don't want to live in fortress america. we don't want to have barricades everywhere. we want manhattan, we want our cities and our towns to be open and a place where people can stroll at night on a beautiful fall evening. >> i will say this, that the police are doing their work in lower manhattan, but new york is out, making a point of the fact it's halloween and they're out and that's what they do. thank you to the three of you. malcolm nance, rukmini callimashi and jeremy bash. still ahead, we'll look at the reaction from the white house. that brings big ideas to life. and cutting-edge transportation development to connect those ideas to the world. along with urban redevelopment projects worthy of the world's top talent. all across new york state, we're building the new new york.
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we're looking at live shots of the scene of that horrific attack in lower manhattan this afternoon. we showed you earlier some of the president's response to the attack on twitter. the white house later issued a more formal statement which reads, "our thoughts and prayers are with the victims of today's terrorist attack in new york city and their families. my administration will provide its full support to the new york city police department, including through a joint investigation with the federal bureau of investigation. we offer our thanks to the first responders who stopped the suspect and rendered immediate aid to the victims of this cowardly attack. these brave men and women embody the true american spirit of resilience and courage. i will continue to follow developments closely." let's turn to jonathan lemire, a white house reporter for the associated press, he's also an
msnbc political analyst, and an expert in this city having reported here. what do you make of the difference between the white house statement, which is traditionally what we have come to expect from a white house, historically, and the tweets which, you know, sort of veer off into other directions that the rest of us don't have information on. >> sure. the official white house statement is not so different than what you'd have heard from an obama white house or george w. bush white house. the tweets are. >> yeah. >> and the white house has told us, these are official presidential statements, they should be treated as such. so say sick and deranged person, as trump first tweeted out today, to very quickly suggest that isis was behind this, which certainly there's investigateiv clues that may be the case. the president may have been out in front of this a little bit. as we've seen him do before, let's remember, he was chastised by theresa may over the summer when he suggested a terror link to an incident in london i believe it was before the police there were willing to say so. i remember last year in the campaign, there was an incident
here in new york, i was covering the campaign, we were in colorado springs, i believe. it was the one when there was a failed explosion in a dumpster. >> that's right, in chelsea. >> in chelsea, correct. he stepped off the plane at a rally, talked about how it was terror and it was hours upon hours before police said, oh, actually, that's -- >> you covered law enforcement before. what's the danger of getting out ahead of those things? i would assume it's about public credibility. how does the public know whether to be fearful, whether to g sure, whether to know that authorities are taking the right action if you can't believe the voracity of the statement by leaders, by law enforcement, by the president? >> for sure. i covered police and fire here in the cities in the years of 9/11. there always was the police department very camely wei lyca weighed what they wanted to say about suspects or potential terror incidents. >> they don't want to be wrong, first of all. >> that's right. if you're wrong about something, the public may not believe you're right the next time. down the road, you don't want to suggest you're tampering with a jury pool by putting out that information, misidentifying someone. i think more immediately it's
the day-to-day reassurances of the city, a city that knows that it's a terror target. >> sure. >> a city that has been in the cross hairs for a long time. you want people here to believe that you know what you're doing and being responsible with the facts you're giving out. >> the president, you can ignore a bunch of the tweets but talked about directing the department of homeland security to beef up the extreme vetting. again, we know this was a green card holder. i was a green card holder. i know what you go through. the government knows more about me than i knew about me. >> right. >> this concept of tieing this to immigration and this extreme vetting, again, may provide a false sense of security. >> sure, and as pointed out in the last panel, the suspect here hails from a country that's not part of the travel ban. we have asked the white house, department of homeland security, for more information as to what the president meant in these tweets. to this point, there's been no response. i think this as suggested that the president, this is a signatu
signature issue for him. two of them. being tough on terror and being strict on immigration. he sees an opportunity politically at least in the moment to link them, to broadcast strength, to suggest to the american people, hey, we're on this, we're not going to let this happen again. >> doctjonathan, good to talk t you. thanks for joining us tonight. jonathan lamire from the associated press. today we turn to the other big news, the russia investigation and new report on a white house insider set to take questions from robert mueller's team. "the 11th hour" is back after this break.
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i've always had that issue with the seeds getting under my denture. super poligrip free. it creates a seal of the dentures in my mouth. just a few dabs is clinically proven to seal out more food particles. try super poligrip free. ♪ papadopoulos is an example of actually somebody doing the wrong thing while the president's campaign did the right thing. all of his e-mails were voluntarily provided to the special counsel by the campaign and that is what led to the process and the place that we're in right now was the campaign fully cooperating and helping with that. what papadopoulos did was lie, that's on him, not on the campaign and we can't speak for that. >> that's the white house's public message today on a former
trump campaign adviser caught in special counsel robert mueller's investigation. george papadopoulos pleaded guilty to liying to fbi investigators about his contacts with foreign nationals who had ties to the kremlin. he's now cooperating with mueller's probe. you just heard the white house simultaneously distancing itself from papadopoulos, and taking credit for his arrest. other trump allies today tried to paint him, papadopoulos, as someone who played a small part in the campaign. >> george was a low-level volunteer who might have attended a meeting of the foreign policy advisory team. >> he was a volunteer with the campaign, served on one of the committees. >> i never heard of papadopoulos. he never showed up at trump tower. the guy was -- he was the coffee boy. >> low-level volunteer, coffee boy. politico now reports mueller has an sbrinterview with trump's wh house communications director hope hicks on the books. the report notes this marks a new phase of his interviews now with current white house employees, not just those who have already left the trump administration. yesterday's indictments and the
pending investigation still hang over d.c., as the "washington post" put it, "the hardest part for official washington is not knowing what happens next." amid the escalating criminal investigation into russian involvement in the 2016 election, every corner of the city finds itself preparing for the unexpected." let's turn now to our panel, phil rutger, white house bureau chief for the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst. kimberly adkins, chief washington reporter for the "boston herald." ken vogel, "new york times" political reporter. thank you to all three of you. phil rutger, let me start with you because you got new reporting out in the "washington post" tonight about the pressure on donald trump to fight mueller publicly. you've written "a number of prominent trump allies including former trump white house chief strategist stephen k. bannon said they believe the president's posture is too timid. seeing the investigation sas a political threat, they're urging a more combative approach to mueller that would damage his credibility and effectively kneecap his investigation."
the interesting part about the article, phil, is that the president is resisting this pressure. >> that's right. it would be within character for the president want to be combative and aggressive but he has been convinced at least as of now by his lawyers, ty cobb, john dowd, and jay sekulow to take a conciliatory approach, responsive in working with the special counsel and importantly to not personally antagonize him, to not be tweeting attacks about him but keep his eye focused on other things related to russia. but bannon feels like he needs to be much more combative, much more aggressive, that he's too timid, he's being taken advantage of in this investigation. and you see a divide on capitol hill as well where some trump allies are really urging a more combative approach to undermine mueller in this investigation. >> kimberly, it was kind of remarkable to see all of those voices on the morning shows and on tv last night singing from
the same songbook talking about papadopoulos being this ffee bo. very different tune. the only reason any of us know about papadopoulos is because donald trump said his name to the "washington post" unprompted in march of 2016. how's this approach working for them? >> yeah, i mean, and remember, he said this name because at the time, the idea was he didn't have a very strong national security team, and so he was trying to tout them and he was one of the people who he touted among that team, but, look, the white house can distance itself from papadopoulos as much as it wants. there if there's evidence that higher-ranking campaign officials were responsive to him, were urging him to get in many touch with russians, if some of these e-mails seem pretty incriminating from the documents that were unsealed in the mueller investigation. it doesn't matter if he was a coffee boy, it's not -- >> he was a coffee boy who was offering to set up meetings with
vladimir putin. >> exactly. exactly. >> and ken, nobody told him not to. there's no record or tape or e-mail of any of these senior campaign officials to whom papadopoulos reached out as sarah huckabee sanders said of his own volition who said no volunteer, low-level volunteer coffee boy, don't do that, that would be treason, that would be really bad. there's none of that. >> in fact, a li, there's the opposite, evidence of them encouraging him, at least not discouraging. even a little bit of them encouraging him and to your earlier question about this defense he was playing this limited role, he was a coffee boy, i mean, let's not forget, this is sort of an approach they took to minimizing paul manafort's role when it was revealed that paul manafort was a target of the investigation. sean spicer said from the white house podium that he was someone who played a very limited role for a very limited period of time. that's laughable. that's ridiculous. so it sort of undercuts their
ability to use that defense in the case of other folks who it might -- where it might actually apply better because there's sort of the boy who cried wolf here. >> you tweeted earlier, today, ken, why it's odd for trump allies to claim that they didn't know about manafort's work. that is kind of strange because all of us in the news industry knew about it. there's no way the campaign couldn't have known about it. >> yeah, beyond that, we actually unearthed at "the new york times" a memo that paul manafort sent through tom barrack, a close friend of both manafort and donald trump's to manafort when manafort was trying to get onto the campaign. one of the strengths he specifically said on the very first page of the memo in a bullet point is he managed presidential campaigns around the world. who are those campaigns? the most recent had been that of the former ukrainian president victor yanakovic. aligned with vladimir putin.
kind of tough, again, to say you didn't know this stuff. all it could have taken was a quick google search. if that didn't suffice, a memo on your desk that says precisely this. >> seems to be a staffing problem, phil rutger, at the trump campaign, nobody got the most basing vetting, no one got a google search. you wrote tonight washington is preparing for the unexpected. we got tax reform that was supposed to be unveiled tomorrow. that's held over for at least another day. what does washington do when it doesn't know what's around the corner? >> well, that's a good question. i think washington collectively freaks out when it doesn't know what's around the corner. this is a town of people who are used to orchestrating their own chaos especially president trump and he's flying blind right now. he doesn't know what's happening next in the mueller probe and he's got an agenda here that he's really desperate to try to, you know, create a success out of and tax reform is slow on the hill, going to be a difficult
climb to get that done by the end of the year as he's hoping. remember the president leaves on friday for a 12-day trip to asia. she's goi he's going to be half a world away when this continues. >> the bully pulpit that's needed when you got to bring parties together they not be kimberly, on a normal day, the lead story would have been the fact we had twitter, facebook and google testifying. remarkable testimony today about the russian influence on the election. did you get any sense that these tech companies are in a position to contain, identify, and limit the influence that russia is having on our political system? >> all these executives said they're taking this seriously and taking action to prevent what happened, all of these fake accounts, fake users, fake posts during the election season from happening again. but lawmakers seem far from satisfied in that effort. i think they were looking to them to tell them, look, we've got this under control, you really don't have to act
congress. but lawmakers didn't seem to think that that was enough. we have senator patrick leahy calling them a bunch of johnny come latelies saying they could have done a lot more before the election rather than reacting afterwards. i think you're going to continue to see congress look at them and scrutinize them very closely as they continue tomorrow. >> it's a tough situation for them to be in because given the exposure that they had to russian influence, if they say they knew about it and know how to handle it, they're in trouble for letting it happen. if they say they didn't know about it, they're in trouble for not knowing who is posting millions of posts hitting hundreds of millions of americans. >> that's absolutely right. there's also the point that they don't want to be gatekeepers of what people can say on facebook. there's a line to be drawn there. they can't yank everybody off who seems to be suspect. they want to allow people to use these platforms. at the same time, they have to learn how to police it, too. >> it's a job we've all learned at our respective media
organizations, it's tough to be a media organization, but that's the way it goes. those companies don't want to call themselves those things. they want to be platforms i guess. phil, great to see you. thanks very much. kimberly atkins, ken vogel, thank you for being with us tonight. still ahead, the white house predicts a quick b end to the mueller investigation. there are indications this may be just getting started. "the 11th hour" is back after this break. the classes, the friends, the independence. and since we planned for it, that student debt is the one experience, i'm glad she'll miss when you have the right financial advisor, life can be brilliant. ameriprise
. "the 11th hour" continues here. i'm joined by jack sharman, the special counsel for the house banking committee now known as the financial services committee during the white water investigation. he's now a criminal defense attorney and paul butler, a formerly federal prosecutor and an msnbc legal analyst who now teaches at georgetown law. thank you for being here. jack, i want to start with you. we now have word that robert
mueller's team spoke to the white house communications director, hope hicks. what does that mean to you? >> it means that the special counsel is moving both deliberately and very efficiently. the past criticisms of other special counsels have slowly they move moved, that doesn't seem to be the case here. and seems to be the special counsel and his staff are following a traditional path of trying to build a con dray of indicted defendants, coordinates are both. >> those of us who are not lawyers watch this on tv where someone is getting interviewed about something. they don't have to go back and work in an office where they're stownal privileged information and strategy. what does this mean for the white house when there are people who have had to retain
their own counsel to help they are through that. everyone's got their own lawyers and there's a white house lawyer and donald trump's lawyers? >> it breeds a lot of distrust. you don't know whether people are cooperating or considering cooperating. you get different advise from your political advisers than fruryou do from your defense attorneys. the attorneys are about keeping your butt out of prison. the political advisers say you can't take the fifth you have to look like your cooperating. at the end of the day, nobody wants to go to jail. robert mueller is a quick prosecutor. for gates and for manafort who were indicted yesterday, he said i don't truest these guys to stay if the country. he said we need to take away their passports and put restrictions on their confinement. >> that's very serious. >> that's how they go after
mafia and drug cartels. >> a lot of people remember the white water investigation where half the country thought it was a witch-hunt. you should through that. what were the similarities that you see? >> one of the similarities is that the prosecutors know a great deal more than we do, so that inhibits are ability to predict accurately who's going to happen. it's important for people to keep in mind that although there were a number of significant convictions coming out of the independent counsel's investigations, most of them pertain to what might be called the arkansas side of the story rather than the washington side. they may have been very much prosecutable offenses, but some of them had a tan general shall relationship to the independent counsel's initial charge. it's possible one could see
something similar here, that is to say a lot of prosecutions, but something somewhat different from where we started. >> you made this comment to me yesterday where you said on the face of it, this indictment, interesting and thorough as it is, aprovable, it doesn't speak to the underlying issue most americans are looking for, and that is collusion. >> the underlying issue is about a threat to american democracy. it's about a whether a longtime adversary colluded. he thinks members of the trump campaign were involved in a criminal enterprise. mueller knows his charge is about collusion and obstruction of justice. yesterday the indictments said a lot about ukraine, but make no mistake, this is a means to an end. it's to flip manafort to see
what he knows about president trump and other highly-level members in the white house, what they know about collusion. i know the about the ukraine. it's not about the financial transactions. it's about collusion with the russians to take over our democracy. >> jack, i want to ask you about that because if paul manafort and richard gates have some good information to give to robert mueller, they could trade that off against that very heavy indictment and those threats that mueller has implied against them. if for some reason they don't have good information to trade, that actually works against them. in other words, if manafort doesn't have any evidence of anybody colluding with the russians, he could go to jail for a long time. >> absolutely. it's a classic white collar defendant's problem that if you don't have anything to sell, nobody's going to be interested in buying anything from you, so
to speak. and the charges in the manafort indictment are pretty straightforward and traditional and carry some significant penalties. so if there have been not been discussions, proffers between the defendant and the prosecutors, if it sometimes happens there is no valuable information, the defendant really has not much room to work with. >> paul, at this point even though this indictment has been brought up, there's still space to negotiate for manafort and gates? obviously that's the hope that mueller has that they'll come forward and say i have stuff for you. >> i think it's an objective investigation. i don't think there's a foregone conclusion. mueller really wants to know what information they have and he'll take the evidence where it goes. again, i don't feel sorry for these guys if there's exposure, if they really did conspire to
take over the election. at the same time, you never want to be in a position when 16 other countries best prosecutors are looking the everything you ever did. if there's something there, robert mueller is going to uncover it. >> and those prosecutors have a lot of money at their disposal. guys, thanks very much. as we approach midnight here in new york, investigators still have a lot of questions about what led to today's deadly terror attack here in new york city. right now police have a 29-year-old immigrant from uzbekistan named sayfullo saipov in custody. tonight officials tell nbc new york the suspect left a note in the truck that he used as a weapon this afternoon saying that he kaefcarried out the att for isis. he ran over bicycleists, the police commissioner says there were still two children on the bus he ran into. according to officials in b, tw
the children were from argentina. the nypd beefed up the police presence across the city including extra officers, sand trucks, and heavy weapons units. but it was still halloween in new york. tonight when kids went trick or treating in the annual parade went off without a hitch. earlier tonight, the nypd put out this message. those in nyc is beyond, join us stopping for a moment to pray for the victims killed today and those injured: together we remain strong. that is your broadcast for tonight. thank you for being with us. and good night from nbc news headquarters in new york.
we've got a bunch of news that has broken late today and into this evening. that includes the federal court in washington, d.c. unsealing a new batch of documents in the special counsel's criminal case against trump campaign chairman paul manafort and trump campaign official rick gates. that 12-count felony indictment against those two officials was unsealed yesterday along side a guilty plea from a junior campaign official who admits he lied to the fbi about his russia contacts during the campaign. that was all yesterday. this new filing unsealed tonight by the federal court in washington lays out the first overt russia connections tot manafort and gates indictment as well as the russia connections that were spelled out in the guilty plea for that more junior campaign official, george papadopoulos yesterday. this new document about