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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  November 21, 2017 3:00am-6:00am PST

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analyst. >> we also have with us willie geist there always good to have. >> you i'm hosting thanksgiving. >> oh, really? >> hosting thanksgiving. >> take a little bag out of the turkey. >> that's important. >> i always forget. >> ut get a prize? >> if i were a real man. but the duck inside the turkey the chicken and the turkey in the deep fryer. >> catty that's what you are doing? >> don't forget to turn the oven on, too. >> any big plans? >> we have friends for thanksgiving. i never hosted thanksgiving, i have to admit. i host christmas lunch a lot. but i love it. it's an adopted holiday for me. >> i was going to say, it's election reminded me, kids at home. you know what they call thanksgiving in britain? thursday. >> my father is hosting, my wife and are cooking. >> are you financial to cook? >> my wife is an unbelievable
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cook. i'm okay. >> okay. what about you? >> i'm just navigating. >>. >> i'm tasting. >> we have a lot to get to this morning. yesterday we learned that charlie rose, a co-anchor of cbc this morning and a contributor on "60 minutes" has been suspended from "cbs news" and pbs announced it will no longer distribute his long-running interview show. it comes after the "washington post" says eight women accused him of sexual harassment. they were either employees of the "charlie rose" show or aperiod to work there in the late 1990s or 2011. they range age from 21 to 37. a lot of the allegation are situations where they were working in his home or they were traveling with him in hotel
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suites. the allegation reported by the "post" include lewd phone calls groping and rose walking around naked in front of the women. one of rose' accusers in the mid-2000s says she told yvette vega, the long-time producer about the lewd calls but vega shrugged it off. in a statement to the "post" vega says she should have done more to protect the young women adding quote this is a female manager whose name is being brought up in all of this. in a lot of the stories we've covered so far. we'll talk more about this later the frame thwork, the manager's names we haven't heard, the manager saying i should have stood up for them. i failed. it is crushing. i deeply regret not helping them. in a statement charlie rose said in part this -- i deeply
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apologize for my inappropriate behavior. i am greatly embarrassed. i have behaved insensitively at times. and i accept responsible for. that though i do not believe that all these allegations are accurate. sexual conduct continues to be a major factor in an alabama race. in an interview with the "today" show, lee corfman described how a 32-year-old then moore tried to se dues her when she was 14. >> he basically laid out only blankets on the floor of his living room and proceeded to se dues me, i guess you would say and during the course of that he removed my clothing. he left the room, came back in, wearing his white underwear and he touched me over my clothing. what was left of it and he umm tried to get me to touch him as
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well and at that point i pulled back and said that i was not comfortable and i got dressed and he took me home. but i was the 14-year-old child trying to play in an adult's world and he was 32-years-old. >> roy moore denies these allegations and, further, says he does not even know you. >> i wonder how many maids he doesn't know. >> i wonder, moore's comp says they've raids $1.5 million about 100,000 a day. compared to democrat dug jones who reportedly raised $250,000 a day. jones joins an 11-1 advantage to moore over the air waves. yesterday, trump the president, once again dodged questions about moore and his accusers. white house spokesperson sarah
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huckaby sanders said the president wants a congress that supports his agenda but would leave the decision on moore up to the voters. >> would you be pleased if roy moore wins his senate race in alabama with the white house be pleased with that outcome? >> look, obviously, the president wants people both in the house and senate that support his agenda. but as i've said and as it prohibits me from going further, we think this is something the people of alabama should decide. >> eugene robinson, you write if your column the only way to defeat roy moore this, can the descent of american political culture into ugly tribalism be halted? alabama voters will give their answer when they decide whether to send roy moore to the u.s. senate -- the fact that most his supports, thus far, are staking with him -- means he has
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convinced many alabamaians that child molesttation is different than church and state. . >> we have been talking about tribalism among republicans and democrats for some time. i guess we will find out how far down you can define decency and democracy. this really is trump tested it to a degree. enough people loathed hillary clinton and the clintons that they voted for a guy they didn't trust, they didn't believe and they didn't respect. but here we go even lower.
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>> absolutely. this is the lowest of the low. i hope. i hope we never go lower than this. you know, this is a phenomenon that really has, it was not just infected american politics but arguably overtaken american politics and tribe is the only reason to vote for anybody to vote for roy moore at this point and it's not about policy really because, in fact, he would be as much of a pain in the behind for mitch mcconnell as doug jones would in terms of supporting the republican agenda. he is lashing out moore as a republican establishment than he is democrats at this point as he is in this crisis for his campaign. so really, it's just because he's a republican and because doug jones is a democrat, that is the only reason he retains, in my opinion, any support at this point. >> you know, willie, you can see
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this tribalism over the past couple of decades and see that the impact is that it gets people voting against the candidate instead of for a candidate and you see that in these republican events, whether it's in california, where john mccain was favored by a california republican audience or if south florida this past weekend with the names of george w. bush. george hw bush, john mccain, booed by south florida republicans because they're fought voting for people. they're voting against the clinton or against the obamas. >> this is tribalism to the extreme. this is talking about protecting a guy who has been accused by any number, nine, ten, women, underage women of sexual contact or sexual harassment in some ways. if you are willing to protect the tribe, you into ed to eevaluate yourself. we had an alabama pastor who supports roy moore and says something along the lines, they
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must have had some sweet dreams down the line, talking about these young men, there is some 14-year-old was could pass for 20. that's a pastor. a man's god, defending the behavior of roy moore. basically throwing some of these women, all of the women under the bus saying they must have dreamed this up. >> you had somebody in a focus group, rick who said jesus christ could come down from the cross and tell me that donald trump was involved with russia and i would tell him, hold on a second, i into ed to ask the president if that's true. he said this is a bizarre, a group of extraordinarily weak-minded people, weak, pathetic, sad people, who will blindly follow donald trump over their god in the case of that, but this sort of, again, this personality cult, this is what you see at the beginning of the
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rise of any autocracy. it's not for the lack of a lot of stupid people who actually will choose trump over their god, trump over their party, trump over their ideology, trump over their moral patterns. trump over everything that their mothers and fathers taught them growing up. no, i'm not talking all trump supporters, but there is a group of trump supporters that agree like this guy. i don't care what jesus says, i just care what donald trump says. >> one time you could always expect some kind of moral authority from the white house t. white house seemed to be on the right track at first, kellyanne conway said no senate seat is worth a child. she came out yesterday and completely reversed herself on that, apparently a senate seat is worth a child. particularly, this point is pastors. because you should expect moral authority from pastors.
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in some ways, this is not new n. joshua's time, they wore shipped ashira, the god of sexuality, the god of pros period of time and mulla, the god of human sacrifice, thank goodness we don't have godz of pros period of time and sexuality anymore. these pastors assembled with the worship next to their altars. it has to be disappointing and confusing to christians looking at this race and the lack of moral leadership on what to do and who to support in this race. >> there is a state congressman in alabama who has gone so far in his be id to protect the tribe, as to say the victim is roy moore and the people who should be prosecuted are the women that came forward. if he was guilty of these things, they have protected a predator over the past 20 years, it's their fault. therefore, they are the ones to
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blame. >> there is a lot of learning. it's happening for decades. >> what i would encourage the pastors what they are saying about these women to watch that interview that lee corfman did, watch, see if you think she is compelling, in it for some other reason than to get the truth out about a man who likes to sit in the senate. >> but this tribalism, you sound like republicans in 1999, 2000 and beyond. just look at the tape of anita broad rick and democrats didn't want to do it and republicans don't want to do it now because tribalism. >> there are people who said he should not be elect and he doesn't deserve a place in the senate. but down in alabama, there are a group of people, including pastors and locally elected officials and local chairman who are circling the wagons purely with the interest of protecting their own. and they will go as far as
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saying that these women are to blame, that they would elect a pedophile over a democrat in order to protect the tribe. >> it's important, to point out again what kelly anne conway said yesterday remained the operative position of the white house throughout the day that they wanted roy moore to win in so many words because they wanted somebody that would vote for the tax bill. >> well, there are so many layers to this and a few that we're financial to try to get in this block. thank god it's a three-hour show. a second woman has come forward with allegations against democratic senator al franken. lindsay memce says he grabbed her buttocks taking a photo at the administration minnesota state fair if 2010 when he was an elected official. in a statement, said he didn't remember taking the photo. he felt badly she felt
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disrespected. this comes after lee anne tweeden accused franken of kissing her more than a decade ago, several senators called for an ethics investigation. franken agrees with that and says there should be one, too. okay. in a piece for the national review entitled beware of running with the al franken story, consider where that leads douglas murray writes, in part this, every time the definition of rape abuse or molestation is brought down another notch and this low water mark is agreed on across the political spectrum, the prospect for a different type of harm increases, if we agree for short term pleasure that franken is guilty of serious sexual molestation for an unfunny photograph taken a year ago at a woman, then two things are certain to happen t. first is that the difference between bad manners and rape will become blurred, yet,
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further, second, this opportunity, opportunistic process risks embedded the now prevailing narrative of a third wave feminism, which is pen are all rapists or photo rapists and women in our society try constant minefields their entire lives when dealing with the male sex, there are many reasons to be mad about franken, it doesn't seem wise to fuel a movement intent on making our society matter still. you know the al franken story makes me uncomfortable. that's ally say at this point. i don't want to look tribal and ruth marcus writes in her piece for the "washington post," a perplexing aspect of the current debate involves the question of what should happen to those guilty of misbehavior and the tendency, common to revolutions to over correct for past since. if society once ignored sexual harassment -- and we certainly
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did -- one risk now evident with the case of then al banken is apathy.
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think about that. i just say to be transparent, there is tribalism everywhere, there is tribalism in politics. we see that from bill clinton to roy moore, that protected
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clinton's behavior and started this or kennedy started this entire waterfall of behavior or maybe before. we have been dealing with this for a along time. in the media, the behavior is protected by management who promote men to power or women. men to pow worry are given all sorts of passes. so the enabler, it's not hr when you finally go to hr that works for the company. but the environment. the culture needs to change. i remember, catty the other day talking about maybe they shouldn't all go out for drinks. i was like totally ransacked on twitter for saying that. you read that charlie rose story, women working at his home, i have great mail associate producers who didn't get the opportunity, maybe schaarly rose wanted a woman, i don't know the story. why are they working at his home, sleeping eight his home? why are people going out for
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drinks, a fork times reporter suspended. everyone is drunk. these are not the best behaviors in all of to us come out. >> that is something that needs to be required from the place where you work. this stuff has to stop from the top down. we can't have situations that enable this behavior. do i sound crazy? am i going to get savaged on twitter again today? >> i don't see why. i have reservations there can be one set of rules for men doing business and women doing business. >> i'm talking why both? >> men tend to do business after work. they go out for dinners and drinks. >> great. >> i see women in senior positions saying i'm not having those opportunities, i'm missing out, my career is being hampered because. >> catty, let me clarify, there is going out for coffee, drink, early dinner. men and women should be able to handle that, obviously.
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when two people are sloshed, yes. you know what, your judgment is impaired. >> right. >> okay. both men and women. and that has to stop and that is rampant in the media business. i mean, i have been in this business for 30 years, i go out, i would stop by across the street where everyone would get together after work, everyone was drunk. i go home, this is not good. but everyone stayed probably story ideas came together and a lot of other things, too. there is no place for that. why isn't it okay to say that we don't need to be getting sloshed after work and hooking up? >> i think the bigger issue for me is when it goes beyond industries where there are a few famous people who get out and whether it's charlie rose or al franken and whether actually we can create safe work stiermts for women that work in restaurants or women who work in hospitals or women that work in post offices or insurance companies. >> yeah. >> where the bosses are not
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famous. no one cares about their name appearing on the front page of the new york post. >> that will be whether this #metoo moment becomes more than a celebrity moment. my fear is we don't get there. those women have almost no recourse, because they are totally financially dependent on their jobs. >> that manager at work who gives you the shifts, who you have as to put up with his treacherous behavior to get those shifts the customers that are drunk dependent on you for their tips, until we get to that stage, beyond media and politics and industries where people are famous, then we haven't changed the dhul u culture t. goal is to create you said at this time other day safe work places for women. >> right. so far -- >> it's not vengeance, a safe work place. >> safe work place for women. we have one producer yvette vega who apology sized saying i
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should have done more. i'd like to hear about some men setting up an environment where peter is not just bes peter or charlie being charlie or name the guys just being name the guy. no, actually, they can't work at your house. >> quite rightly, there are whole group of young women that want to involve their careers, they will put up with things that are terrible. the poor women in alabama. >> it doesn't have to be. >> now think about al franken. like i'm not comfortable with this. i don't want to step on a mine and say that that behavior or spigot acceptable. it's not. but is it the same? and by the way, i do these, you know, book tours with joe. we do like pictures with a thousand people. am i allowed to say how many times my butt has been grabbed. i don't know, i'm not saying it's okay.
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>> right there. . >> you have a protective guy. >> literally, i pull the hand off my butt. is that a sex crime? where are we? >> but you are not saying that's okay. >> no, i didn't like it. not enjoying it. >> it's not okay. but at the same time, again, you talked about being tribal. what's interesting, catty, is you have, you have the national review, a very conservative outlet saying al franken doesn't deserve the death penalty. have you michelle goldberg at the "new york times" saying the same thing. and there have been a lot of conservatives on twitter yesterday saying the same thing, with al franken, are we jumping to -- this seems to be a case not tribe am a. lot of conservative leaders and democrats are starting to say -- >> but i'm also wondering whether there aren't a lot of men who obvious this is made
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terribly up comfortable. >> it's so uncomfortable. >> the vast majority of the men have no idea of the scale, they don't do it, it doesn't happen the to them. it doesn't happen to them, that's been a big gender divide that's been revealed by this story t. thing about the al franken story, i don't know about this one and you know he did stick his tongue allegedly forcibly in somebody's mouth. if that was proven to be the case what message if he doesn't go does that send to other potential people? >> how could bit proven to be the case? >> i guess it's just us, we are the judge the jury and the cops. >> or you what it to see how a story develops and there are others that emerge. >> you are question about degrees when donny was here as pell, it's a conversation i had with women. how do you feel about this? is al franken, when you say al franken. it becomes the democrats. politician x doing what he did
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in the same boat, should his picture be on the same graphic with harvey weinstein who now we know is a serial predator, should they both be thrown off the stage and the answer i've gotten from most women is, no. >> right. >> to your point, mika, that does not excuse the first behavior. >> they're all bad. >> it's gross, if somebody did it i would report it. do i think he's a pariah and should have his life ruined thrown out. i'm not talking al franken. i'm talking the degrees of sexual harassment and assault we have been talking about. >> we had an honest conversation where one man said what every man knows, that is the way they treated women 20 and 30 years ago is completely different than the way they react around women now, behaviors have changed, have evolved in a positive direction. eugene robinson, there are some really big questions here,
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though, i'm going to go to the media story, because i really think that if we will have an honest conversation, we got to talk about it, ourselves. this charlie rose story is horrible. my dad played tennis with charlie rose, i picked up the tennis balls. >> i seen it, too. >> i am horrified by the scenarios that were allowed within the cbc and pbs community for people to be work income homes and hotel rooms for him, younger women in the age of peter jennings, of mark halperin, i'll say it who is no longer on this show and his career is completely erased, finished, ended, period, end of story. i want to know where the event vegas of abc are. i want to know the people in the age of peter who mark worked for and learned from, where are these people here and the
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management sisttructure? >> it's fascinating when he died and i was watching his basically i don't know what you'd call it a lot of thinks friends put together something and they were mourning him, there were always these jokes about peter, well, peter is being peter, charlie was just being charlie. >> right. >> so everybody jokes e joked back 20, 30 years ago in the media about peter being peter. well, you know, that's what donny was saying last week. what happened 30 and 20 years ago does not happen now. >> well, it certainly should not happen now. i think we are going through a kind of paradigm shift now and i think it will probably, i certainly hope it will happen less in the future you know we know him through these big
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institutions, cbs, pbs, bloomberg. he owned his own company. he was the guy t. big major national institutions that took his show and used his services don't seem to be at all curious about what was happening inside the production unit. that's one lesson in that subcontracting situation it's important to know. obviously, there were rumors. the sort of bug. everyone seemed to know charlie was charlie t. other thing is i think we can all agree all sexual harassment is deplorable. there are different, i don't know if you'd say different degrees or different kinds, but it's not all the same and i think we can kind of work
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through this, one of the factors that really makes conduct more egregious is the pattern. so when i read the story about the "new york times" reporter being suspended, you know the first tim, it's like, well, a bunch of people are all drunk. how do you gauge there? when you get to the fact there seems to be a pattern of young women knowing there was a kind of pred tore behavior, that takes it to a new level. >> well, i will just say, tomorrow to interrupt you. i'm going to, 85 vet vega, you should be promoted for your honesty and not fired. for every 85 vet vega out there, there are ten, 20 managers who have protected it and allowed it to thrive i find it so fascinating. >> also women managers.
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>> absolutely. i've spoken to talked to a lot of victims of sexual harassment. i am one myself. i am one in more ways than you'll ever know and maybe i'll share one day. but at this point the accusers in the case of mark hill person, four, five women. they're people at abc that they went to they say. can i have their names, please? no, they're my friends. that's not acceptable. if we're going to have complete transparency. if we're going to completely clang the culture. we can't just go after the people we don't like. we have to go after the entire culture. and i appreciate treat in retrospect this executive producer coming forward and saying i messed up. at least someone did. it happens to be a woman. >> i know you are trying to go. in this charlie story, it's worse than that, somebody that spoke up was relieved of her
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job, fired, someone was prevented for some reason. >> we will have ruth ma cuss on 8:30 whose op ed we read in sunday's "washington post" she is talking about the death penalty and physical out how do you sort through this? she is say wag you have been saying which is we got to have a discussion. if it's just going to be the french revolution and everybody's heads is going to get chopped off the second somebody says something, this is badly for everybody. ruth is talking about what you are talking about, which is having a conversation and figuring out how we move through this. >> i want to hear from these men, these managers. we are in a really good place, something really good could happen here if we don't overstep. >> still ahead on morning joe, a definitive time line on the russian connection, bob mueller is digging into the trump team's contacts with the kremlin, judging by the just published
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report, there is plenty to see there. first the white house votes north korea as a state sponsor of terror. what does it mean for the nuclear threat? morning joe will be right back..
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>> today the united states is designating north korea as a state sponsor of terrorism. it should have happened a long time ago, it should have happened years ago. north korea has repeatedly supported acts of international terrorism, including assassinations on foreign soil t. north korean regime must be lawful, it must end its unlawful nuclear pliska missile development and cease all support for international terrorism, which it is not
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doing. >> it's really just the latest step in a series of as you can see ongoing steps to increase the pressure -- i call it the peaceful pressure campaign. the president calls it maximum pressure campaign. so there is no confusion, they're one in the same. i think this is to hold north korea accountable for actions they've taken over the last several months, the last year or. so it tightens the pressure on the kim regime, all with the intense to have him understand this is only going to get worse until are you ready to come and talk. >> secretary of state rex tillerson, president trump with a decision to recreate north korea the state sponsor of terror t. north was originally added by reagan in 1988. the united states took them off the list in 2008 by president busch because he wanted to jump start nuclear talks. author and columnist for the daily beast.
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gordon, does this matter? >> it does matter from a number of different perspectives. the most important, though, is this brings a whole wrath of sanctions. they're minor. but north korea is at a tipping point. there isn't a lot of anecdotal everyday that the regime is starved funds. for instance, officials in pyongyang, they are not getting rations from the distribution channel. we are hearing that loyalty payments, which are essentially taxes are being accelerated because toi they don't have cash flow and rex tillerson yesterday talked about fuel shortages. so anything that you can do to increase the pressure, even a little bit can have a big effect. >> what does this mean practically, gordon? they're on the list what does it mean? how do we treat them differently than we were previously? >> well, there are 12 things added as sanctions. some were already sanctions, for instance, you can't sell weapons to north korea.
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we weren't selling weapons the the security council resolution prohibits that. there are a few things the administration is tired to do that it wasn't before. they're minor, like going to the world bank and trying to prevent loans to north korea, which weren't going to happen anyway so there is a whole lot of things, but they're minor in the scheme of things. what is important is president trump's executive order, which said you do business with north korea, you are not doing business with the united states. >> i think rex tillerson asked us yesterday, does this mean the white house is shifting away that chosen is going to be the key in putting pressure on north korea? >> no, i still think they will look to china. what will be important are the treasury department sanctions, which are announced today. president trump talked about this yesterday. >> how much more can we sanction? this is the most sanctioned company now. >> it is now, it wasn't a couple months ago, the important thing
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not only new sanction, enforcement of alleged sanctions, treasury department doesn't have enough people enforcing the sanctions in place. it's a question of political will. does president trump have the political will to impose sanctions on the backers? >> so, yeah so that would mean putting pressure on china through sanctions that are you suggesting to get them to enforce the sanctions that exist on in,? >> absolutely. >> is america prepared to go that far? >> i don't know. you would think not. we haven't done that in the past, we haven't done it in this administration t. sanctions are severe. it could be cut off the trade with china. that's probably not financial to happen, what would u could happen are sanction on chinese banks, large fines or designations as money laundering concerns. >> is this action by the trump administration strike you as something is that would compel north korea to come to the table or to give up its nuclear
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program or compel china to take action? in other words, strategically, what itself the goal here? >> strategically the goal is to cut off all the money to the kim regime so it can't launch missiles, detonate nukes and engage in politics, which is the giving of mercedes, rolexs to regime elements. that's critical, kim can't run the regime by himself, even though we call eight one-man statement when kim is at that point, he realizes he has no choice but to comply with the will of the international community. that's what the policy is. it's a very difficult and is a very dangerous act but nonetheless, it's about the only one that's available if we are not going to use force. >> all right, gordon thank you very, very much. coming up the justice department sues at&t over its proposed merger with time warner and despite the president's past comments, the doj says it has
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nothing to do with cnn. >> i can't wait for the deposition to be out. seriously? >> morning joe is coming right back. most american homeowners would be shocked if they knew just how rich they were. the average american home value has increased $40,000 over the last 5 years. but many don't know you can access that money without refinancing or selling your home. with a home equity loan, you can pull cash out of your house for anything you need- home improvement, college tuition, even finally getting out of credit card debt. come to lendingtree.com to shop and compare home equity loans right now. because at lendingtree, when banks compete, you win.
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. >> as an example of the power structure i'm fighting. at&t is buying time warner, thus, cnn, a deal we will not approve in my administration because it's too much concentration of power in the hands of too few. >> that was then candidate president trump on the campaign trail last year. >> okay. so jury, that's exhibit number 1. you all can look at that. in his own words, out of his own mouth. >> all right. >> c'mon, any country lawyer, a dumb country lawyer mike e like me can do this game. >> now the justice department is challenging the merger, they claim it would reduce competition and innovation, resulting in higher bills for consumers, this comes amid speculation by democrats the
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president is punishing time warner property cnn over coverage he considers fake news, really? would he do that? but a justice official says the white house played no role in the decision to sue. and that the president's comments about cnn were not a factor. at&t released a statement calming the lawsuit radical and inexplicable to decades of anti-trust presidents and plans to fight nit court. >> so, gene, again, we always want to make sure we're not tribe am so let me not be twiebal here, say something that will help democrats and trump supporters. it's clearly obvious, he weighed in on it. he's weighed in on it since, his interference in the justice department is wrong, at&t should challenge him. just like barack obama back during hillary clinton's investigation, time and time again said, oh, there's nothing that touched on national
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security. fbi agents who were kind of starting the investigation were like, what, what, what? everybody said, what is the president of the united states weighing in on a justice department investigation and drawing conclusions? well, if the president of the united states draws a conclusion and it's barack obama, this obama justice department reads the washington post and if donald trump weighs in on cnn and the merger, his justice department is reading the "washington post." >> yeah, you know, funny how that happens that when presidents express opinions on pending legal cases such as this, it's just, i don't know, but it seems more often than not that the justice department, in fact, comes to the same conclusion, you know, i agree with you that any country lawyer, you know, that lawyer andy grit it's played on tv years ago, he can come in
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wearing a white suit -- >> we would put phil hartman caveman lawyer on this one. it may be a caveman lawyer, but this is pretty obvious stuff. i thought at&t made another really food argument t. whole idea that you are getting too much media power together. we have facebook now has 55% of the market. if you are going -- it's like breaking up the bells back in the 1970s which nobody on this set remembers, when they broke up the bells, there was too much concentration of power. they needed to do it n. this case, the justice department does not allow this through, they have to kind of break up facebook. >> this is like at this point and my apologies to the television industry. but this is like breaking up a cartel of mom and pop bodagas
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compared to the scale and influence of the huge tech giants. so few are serious about anti-trust, you know, that's where you should go, you know, just like willie sutton robbed banks because that's where the money is. well, where the power is in the tech giants, the big five. this seems to me to kind of being almost a diversion, and not terribly important in that scheme. >> yeah. willie sutton robbed banks because that's where the money is. willie geist, goes to dog tracks. >> the administration is reversing neutrality. it will help. >> wow. >> eugene robinson, thank you. andrea mitchel joins the conversation coming up. plus peter alexander reports on the planned phone call with vladimir putin. peter will join us from the white house. "morning joe" is coming right back.
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sarah huckabee sanders yesterday addressed the tweets posted by the president on sunday where he said he should have left the three ucla basketball players in jail. >> it was a rhetorical response to a criticism by the father. again, i think the president was happy to see the release of these individuals and have them back in the united states. >> it was indeed a rhetorical response. i'm not sure what it means exactly. >> what does that mean? >> i don't understand anything she says. >> but it's about instructive. it says he had to respond because that guy said something mean about him. >> that means it doesn't have substance. it's just words. he didn't mean what he said. >> alternative facts? >> god, those press briefings have to be absolute torture. really? >> he's handing lavar ball what he wants on a silver platter. ball was in an interview.
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he's getting what he wants and moving merchandise. >> we got to move those microwave ovens. >> my microwave's name is kelly ann. i say thanks, kelly ann. >> coming up the white house confirms the president is set to speak -- mika does facebook live every day with her chickens. i say you have to pace it out once a week. >> yesterday was dramatic. we had to do an update and i had to do a public apology because marta, the chicken -- do you want to hear this -- she was trying to get to my back door. she was pecking at my back door. five times. i did the whole facebook live about this. bottom line is the coup locked her out and she laid an egg on the steps. isn't that sad? >> in other news -- >> she was trying to tell me. >> mary and joseph. there was no room in the inn. they locked her out. >> in related news, donald trump will be speaking with vladimir putin by phone to talk about
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wakey! wakey! rise and shine! oh my gosh! how are you? well watch this. i pop that in there. press brew. that's it. so rich. i love it. that's why you should be a keurig man! full-bodied. are you sure you're describing the coffee and not me? it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it's tuesday, november 21st. with us we have washington anchor for bbc, katty kay, rick
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tyler, chief national correspondent for the new york times magazine, mark leeberitch, and chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of andrea mitchel reports, andrea mitchel. andrea, let me ask you quickly, what's your reaction to north korea and once again being put on the terror list? at the end of the day, is there any impact? is that going to change what north korea does one way or the other? >> it really is hard to say. i think the most important thing is still whether china and the u.s. get on the same page, and it's really interesting that the president came back claiming one thing about what china had agreed to and president xi, but the next day beijing said no, that's not what we agreed to at all. they are still not at all coordinated, and what the results of the asian trip remains to be seen. china is still telling north korea it can get out of this box by simply freezing its nuclear program in place and that the
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u.s. and south korea are ready to step back from their joint military exercises. that is not at all the american position. >> all right. we'll be continuing this conversation, but to the top political news this hour, the white house seems content with letting roy moore reach the senate in hopes of pushing through a republican agenda that has so far stalled on nearly every front. yesterday during a cabinet meeting president trump dodged questions about moore and the women who accused the candidate of sexual misconduct and much worse. a white house spokesperson sarah huckabee sanders said the president wants a congress that supports his agenda but would leave the decision on moore up to voters. >> would you be pleased if roy moore wins his senate run in alabama? >> obviously the president wants people both in the house and the senate that support his agenda, but as i've said, and as i am
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prohibited from going further, we think this is something the people of alabama should decide. >> as for the campaign, moore's camp says it's raised over $1 million in the last ten days. that comes to about $100,000 a day. that's compared to doug jones who has raised $250,000 a day. he enjoys an 11 to one advantage over moore. >> let's make sure we're clear about this. the white house has been trying to avoid getting out and saying openly i support roy moore. apparently steve bannon, kellyanne conway, others have told him, you know what? you need to stay away from this and don't undercut moore. yesterday kellyanne conway came out i think on ""fox and friends"" that's a good guess, and said you know what? the most important thing is that the voters of alabama elect
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somebody that will vote for the tax bill and for donald trump's agenda. there was a de facto endorsement. and sarah huckabee sanders appeared to follow it up yesterday. i think it's safe to say the message has been sent to the voters of alabama. donald trump supports roy moore. >> it is. what's interesting is donald trump is so unshy about being in your face about casting judgment on anything at any moment no matter how little or how much information he has that when you step back and say let's let the voters of fill in the blank state decide, it is a loud and clear pocket veto, essentially. if you listen to a lot of members of the republican senate, they have said over and over and over again, the only person who can really move the needle on this race and on roy moore is decision on what voters in alabama can do is donald trump. and again, there was a build up to women wei to him weighing in on this, and
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his silence speaks volumes. i don't know if his supporters, if roy moore's potential supporters will listen to something as subtle as this, but i think, yeah, that made their decision on this. >> and it's hard to believe, katty, if roy moore is elected, it's hard to believe this republican senate will for the first time in a year do something difficult and tell their president and tell voters in alabama we're not going to see roy moore. it seems if roy moore wins, we need to get ready for him being seated as a u.s. senator. >> the goal posts have shifted so dramatically and quickly on this story of what we thought was acceptable and now is what we thought was unacceptable and now what seems to be acceptable that some speculation early on that even if he was seated he might be unseated. i think that's gone out the windows, and republicaned want to see kellyanne conway telling it from their point of view. >> again, this is a u.s. senate. we've had some republicans that have come out and made some
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really difficult decisions over the past year. of course, there's nothing difficult about going out and doing what a lot of senators have done, and that is criticizing a guy who has been accused of molesting a 14-year-old girl. at the same time, if he gets elected by the state of alabama, if you have donald trump and donald trump's people basically saying we need him for the vote, you really see mitch mcconnell's republican senate refusing to seat him? >> no. >> they won't have the courage to do that? >> i don't think so. it will certainly change the senate bring your daughter to workday, though. look -- >> which is a really good question of who can seat this guy knowing -- >> oh, my god -- >> knowing what we've now seen the interview of the accuser. >> she seemed very credible to me. there's a pattern. and one thing to remember about
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people who are victims of sexual assault or harassment or abuse, often they don't come out, because they feel like they're isolated. they feel like i'm the only person. >> they feel embarrassed or guilty. they feel somehow it was their fault. >> what's the up side of doing it? that's why they all come out because one starts and the next one says okay, i should tell my story. >> so andrea, there's a question of what impact donald trump's endorsement has anyway. you look at what happened in alabama. he endorsed luther strange and luther strange lost. he endorsed ed gillespie, praising him for basically tearing a page from his play book. then ed gillespie lost. don't know this could have an impact in alabama anyway. would it? >> i think it would, actually.
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because with ed gillespie, gillespie had mike pence campaigning with him, but donald trump was not out on the stump with him. maybe that's a different -- and virginia is so different from alabama, as you know. i'm just struck by the fact that if anyone thinks that he could be seated and then expelled, i would just remind you that it took three years of an ethics committee investigation to get rid of bob pack wood after everything was laid out and he was reelected. he was seated. then the newspaper stories that had been held for a couple of weeks because of the feeling that it was unfair to attack and accuse him right before the election in oregon. he was seated and it took three years before the ethics committee came out and said he should be expelled and that day he quit. this is a process that's not going to work. if he is seated, he is in the united states senate. if he's elected, he's in the united states senate. he has to be seated. the supreme court rulings on
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adam clayton powell, and all the rest. he's going to be of the united states senator. the women of alabama, i was struck by a column this weekend where it said this is up to the women, the republican women of alabama. you have to ask yourselves who are you protecting because the kinds of people that by every indicator roy moore was allegedly assaulting, molesting in the case of the 14-year-old, and sexually advancing upon were the so-called deplorables, she used that term deliberately. she said these were the young women, the daughters who worked in the red lobster and worked in the serars. these with the young girls who had no options and were often from single mother homes and had nowhere to turn. >> you know, one of the reasons
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why the trump white house is climbing, they want roy moore up to elected and in washington has to do with the tax vote and the agenda. their stalled agenda. and the tax vote right now, it's hard to tell which way it's going to go. i suspect it will pass in the end. but it's still up in the air. >> good great lakes, whatacious bill worth to you. republicans are pushing forward with the tax plan despite roadblocks. speaking before a cabinet meeting yesterday, president trump promised a big president for americans this holiday season in the form of tax cuts. >> i want to congratulate the house of representatives for passing a vital and historic tax cut, and i'm hopeful the senate will do the same very soon. we're going to give the american people a huge tax cut for christmas. hopefully that will be a great
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big, beautiful christmas present. >> meanwhile democrats are reportedly looking to cash in on the cuts for the wealthy and corporations in time for the 2018 midterm elections. according to "the washington post," the democrats are set to unleash a seven figure tv ad campaign targeting house republicans in multiple districts with loot of working class whites as well as college educated whites with the gop tax proposals at the center of the ads. >> mark, you have house republicans. i don't really understand it, in states like california, house republicans in states like new york and illinois that voted for this package. >> right. >> despite the fact they just increased the tax bill for small business owners a great deal, and in states where they already are paying 55% of all of their earnings to the federal, state, and local governments.
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i can't imagine -- i'll say it -- a dumber thing for a member of congress to do that's in one of those difficult districts, swing districts, than to raise taxes on your small business owners. >> i was talking to some of the same republicans in the house a couple of days ago. they were saying similar things that you would hear them say around the health care bill which is, well, i took this vote now. i'm kind of hoping it gets sort of washed out in the senate, and it comes back in some kind of different form. there's some kind of fix. no, i think if you look at this, republicans seem to be losing the messaging race pretty clear cut on this, because i think other than the president saying you're going to get a christmas present, it's going to be beautiful, it will be a big, wig tax cut. i think the forces are saying this is a huge tax cut on the rich. it is going to raise taxes on middle class, it seems to be winning. if you look at early opinion polls, it seems to be getting
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traction. i don't quite know what the impetus is by saying look our donors want this. they're saying they're going to go away. that's not a winning thing. >> you're not hearing the level of opposition from republican senators or republicans in the house that you were to the repeal of obamacare. there's more support on it in ko congress on the republican side even though the polls show people are buying the democrat side. >> i think it's less of a visceral issue. even if it passes, it will have a shorter shelf life for republicans as a victory. they might think it's going to give us all kind of leverage going forward. i don't see that. >> rick, you've run campaigns. i sort of ran my own campaign. everything i looked at politically, i looked at it in the prism of what happened the last two weeks.
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even the announcement the first day two and a half years before the election, i was always thinking how is this going to look in our final closing 30 second spot. i bring that up just to say they can celebrate in december the passing of this tax bill, but if they really want to figure out whether they're going to win or lose, they have to see how this is going to fit in at the end of the campaign and i think they're just going to be brutalized, especially if you're in the districts that republicans hold that hillary won that are in traditionally blue states where the tax bills are going to skyrocket. >> right. california, new york, virginia, illinois. >> yeah. >> what's interesting to me, joe, is mnuchin says the tax bill will create $2.5 million of new revenue for the government because of economic activity. all the outside groups say it will lose between 1000000000001.5 trillion.
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that's a huge difference. >> we're at full employment. if you had a tax bill that said we're going to bring jobs, that's going to work. that's sort of -- because people are working. the thing is the wages are still -- there's still a wage gap and you can't create a tax bill short of wage and price control that's going to guarantee the people are going to have their wages increased. so it's a tough -- it's a tough sell, but, look, i don't think right wing social engineering is any better than left wing social engineering and i think the republicans have so oversold what the tax bill is going to -- what's going to happen. >> and andrea, they did the same thing with the health care bill. it's hard to think, i certainly can't in all my years following washington or being in washington, not ask you. have you seen a sloppier legislative year than this year by the republicans and how they
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hurriedly drafted a health care bill that was going to change one sixth of the economy in back rooms over a couple of weeks and now they've done the same thing with the tax bill? >> right, and now they're conceding over the weekend as you saw, that they would take the repeal of the individual mandate out of it before it hits the senate familiar by amendment. it's been a mess. it's been done in secret. it's too quick to have this major impact upon the economy done without hearings at all on the substance of it, and in terms of what rick was just saying, not only the cbo, but the very highly regarded committee for responsible budget is saying there are gimmicks in this which makes it not just a $1.5 trillion tax bill, but a 2
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$.2 trillion tax bill. they said they're gaming the system to get it under the reconciliation rules so it's costed out for the ten-year period, and that we only need 50 votes, not the of 60 votes and we'll fix it down the road. they're saying they're gaming the system and it's a gimmick and it will cost more, but they're pointing to dynamic scoring when "the wall street journal" had a big conference and gary cohn was speaking last week and they asked the audience how many ceos will reinvest in higher wages and do the things we're saying will be done, only five people out of a very large audience raised their hands. >> right. you're talking about possibly $2.2 trillion added to a $2 trillion debt. this passing at a time of almost full employment, and also knob partisan groups saying ultima ultimately this tax bill will increase taxes on 50% of
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americans. >> and it's not the top 50% of americans. >> happy days are here again? i don't think so. >> andrea mitchel, thank you. we'll watch "andrea mitchel reports" at noon on msnbc. >> mark, thank you as well. >> what are you working on? >> i'm doing a couple of things on the informal, trying to finish a work, and a to be unveiled story on washington in the next few weeks. >> tell me about the nfl. i'm curious, you have people on the left and the right going back and forth. is the nfl suffering this season? are ratings down? has this kneeling controversy and the cte combined caused a drop in support? >> sure. i mean, it's been a rough year in terms of not just cte which has been a problem for a while, be anthem, obviously, but obviously just a lot of catastrophic injuries. there's just been -- it's been a weird competitive year. the owners are fighting. there's a lot of drama, which is
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great for my book. >> jerry jones is in the middle of a huge feud over roger g goodell's compensation. >> next we go live to the white house where the president is set to speak today for vladimir putin. and in a few moments, the trump russia time line. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. david. what's going on? oh hey! ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's helps more people go to college. it's part of our commitment to being america's best first job. ♪
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it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪
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we have learned donald trump and vladimir putin are set to speak by phone. joining us now with more is peter alexander. peter, good morning. >> reporter: good morning. white house officials this morning tell me that president trump and putin are going to speak by phone at some point this morning. it does follow that rare meeting
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between putin and syria's dictator. the conversation, the kremlin says, will focus on the future of syria where the u.s. and russia, of course, have clashed for years over the path forward. putin and his government have been among asaad's biggest supporters. the kremlin is pushing for a political settlement. any can i haley and rex tillerson announced the u.s. is not focussed on pushing asaad out of power and his status would be determined by the people of syria. that stance in direct opposition to the obama administration and the european allies who wanted asaad to step down. just a matter of days ago, nikki haley appeared skeptical about russia's role. take a listen. >> the message to anyone listening is clear. in effect, russia accepts the use of chemical weapons in syria. how, then, can we trust russia's
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supposed support for peace in syria? how can anyone take russia's proposal of political talks seriously? >> that was days ago. during that meeting in sochi on monday saealed with an embrace, putin lavished praise. this is the best we know the leaders have met face to face since russia began the serious military campaign backing asaad. both meetings shrouded in secrecy. >> that will be one interesting phone call. i wonder if they'll get to any other topics. thank you so much. coming up next, so know where things stand in the russia investigation, you have to trace the story to the beginning. our producer did that. we'll bring you the full time line of the block buster reporting and spilled secrets. you don't want to miss this, next, on "morning joe." i love you, couch.
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i'm going to find it. whatever it is, whatever thread you left behind, however small, the one that threatens
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everything you are, we both know it's out there. you know exactly what it is. you were talking about sleepless nights? it's what you wake up thinking about in the dark, shaking because i'm going to find it. you know i will. and i'm going to pull on it, and i'm going to pull on it until your whole [ bleep ] world unravels. >> okay. that is from show time's "billions" but there is an up raveling happening in washington but it could lead to bob mueller who has been on the job for six months now digging into contacts between russia and members of the trump team. "morning joe" looks back at how we got here and what's still to come. we don't get it and we never have. how's it going? >> it's going well. >> yeah? do you like vladimir putin's
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comments about you? >> sure. >> why has president trump kowtowed to russian president putin since the beginning of the campaign? >> people call you brilliant. it's always good, especially when the person heads up russia. >> no one has a good answer. >> yeah. >> i mean, also it's a person that kills journalists, political opponents. obviously that would be a concern, would it not? >> any other candidate would have hit this softball out of the park but not trump. >> at least he's a leader unlike this country. >> joe tried slowing down for emphasis. >> again, he kills journalists that don't agree with him. >> well, i think our country does plenty of killing also, joe. >> but bob mueller heads into the office every morning to put the puzzle pieces together, and what we know so far might explain why the president appears so panicked. september 2015, three months after trump came down the
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escalator to oi nouns his campaign, there were discussions about a trump tower project in moscow. that same month cohen said this as a campaign surrogate. >> there's a better than likely chance trump may meet with putin when he comes here for the united nations. >> your counsel intimate youd may have a meeting with the russian president. >> i heard he wanted to meet with me, and certainly i am open to it. i'm not sure i know that people have been talking. >> cohen told "the washington post" he discussed the deal three times with the candidate and that trump who led in nearly every poll for the republican nomination, signed a letter of intent with a moscow-based developer on october 28th, 20 , 2015,. the night of the gop's third presidential debate. >> i think maybe my greatest weakness is that i trust people too much. i'm too trusting. >> in an e-mail on november 3rd, later reported by "the new york
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times," trump business associate felix wrote to cohen about the moscow project. quote,ly get putin on this program and we will get donald elected. in early december soon to be trump national security adviser michael flynn was paid through his speaker's bureau to attend a gala with putin. putin later said they hardly spoke. >> translator: i didn't really even talk to him. that's the extent of my acquaintance with mr. flynn. >> flynn later denied being paid by russians. january 2016 in an attempt to revive the moscow project, there was an e-mail to a personal spokesperson to ask for help according to documents later submitted to congress reported on by "the washington post." he later said he got the e-mail but did not reply. trump again to rack up primary victories and endorsements. >> i told donald trump this is a campaign, this is a movement. >> february 29th, 2016,, paul
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manafort, a career consultant for international strongman wrote a memo offering his services according to new york times in which manafort offered to work for free. recent court filings accused manafort and rick gates of being tied up in a multimillion dollar money laundering scheme with prorussian interests. they have pleaded not. on march 10th, russian hackers sent phishing e-mails in attempt to compromise the inboxes of democratic party operatives tied to hillary clinton according to associated press. within nine days they would have access to at least 50,000 e-mails of campaign chairman onpodesta. in a meeting with the washington post on march 21st, trump announced members of his foreign policy team. >> george papadopoulos. he's an oil and energy consultant. excellent guy. >> that very week papadopoulos met in london with a russian
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national and a professor with ties to the kremlin. volunteer papadopoulos e-mailed the co-chair sam clove us and several members of the foreign policy team telling them he met with the russian ambassador, and, quote, putin's niece who discussed a meeting between russian leadership and trump. he replied not to make any commitments and added great work. >> i have nothing to do with russia. to the best of my knowledge, no person that i deal with does. >> at a national security meeting held in the under construction trump hotel in washington, papadopoulos told trump, jeff sessions, and others about the meeting. according to adviser j.d. gordan, sessions shut down the idea. the president said he doesn't remember. >> it's a very unimportant meeting. took place a long time. don't remember much about it. >> a few weeks later in late april the democratic national committee's i.t. department picked up suspicious activity and called in the firm crowd strike discovering a hack that pointed to the russian
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government. at the same time the foreign professor with kremlin ties told papadopoulos he just returned from moscow where he learned the russians had obtained dirt on hillary clinton. thousands of e-mails. papadopoulos continued the spore spon dance and attempts to set up a meeting. that might trump got a huge victory in a slew of states. april 27th, trump delivered a foreign policy speech at the may flower hotel in washington d.c. >> some say the russians won't be reasonable. i spend to find out. >> reporter: in the audience? jeff sessions. who met with russian ambassador kislyak as a reception before the 1350emeeting. >> jared kushner also met with him at the event. something he would not disclose for more than a year. he had three undisclosed calls
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with dkislyak from april throug may. and there was a meeting hinting for a message from putin. donald trump junior met with him on the sidelines on an nra event. the biggest development was still to come. >> and that biggest development straight ahead on "morning joe." i think it's terrific.
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you know, there are many glaring aspects -- i was just bragging about my ability to read. >> i know. >> you should not have given yourself such a big pat on the back. it's hard, and you have to read them. >> we don't really read -- >> words. >> teleprompters here that much, and -- >> no, you don't. and there's a reason for that. >> all right. alex, you can record this now.
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there are many glarings a pelkts surrounding the trump team's contacts with the russian. among them, 15 minutes after they were urged to share a link to spread their stories. that's part of the trump/russia time line. >> shortly after donald trump junior met with a bank official, a british music pub lisist who worked with the family on the miss universe pageant e-mailed trump junior on june third about a back channel to the campaign. saying they met with a moscow based lawyer. natalia who had information who would incriminate hillary and her dealings with russia, part of russia and its government support. trump junior replied. if it's what you say, i love it, especially later in the summer and set up the meeting.
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after another primary victory four days later, candidate trump made this promise. >> i am going to give a major speech on probably monday of next week, and we're going to be discussing all of the things that have taken place with the clintons. >> on june 8th, trump junior forwarded the e-mail to jared kushner and paul manafort. on june 9th they met with a russian lobbyist and former counterintelligence lobbyist, a subject of a federal report on foreign money moving through u.s. banks, and a russian translator. but weeks later, trump junior denied any whiff of assistance from moscow. >> what's happening with the russians, it's disgusting. it's so phony. >> trump junior later had several explanations of the meeting but continues to insist nothing of consequence came from it. just hours after the russians left trump tower, trump senior
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responded to a clinton tweet writing where are your 33,000 e-mails that you deleted? on june 12th, wikileaks founder said he might know. >> we have upcoming leaks in relation to hillary clinton which are great. >> meanwhile jared kushner took over the campaign's data operation in june according to an interview with forbes. it said he gained access to the rnc's voter file and soon brought in the form cambridge analytica to target voters. that same month the ceo of cambridge analytica e-mailed wikileaks offering their help to organize and give clinton related e-mails. he said no. this as the first batch of hacked dnc documents were leaked on june 15th by a hacker who u.s. intelligence later determined was a tool of the russian military. june 19th, trump foreign policy adviser carter page who later
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attended the rnc said he sent an e-mail to top campaign aids as well as foreign policy advisers j.d. gordan and sam klovis to say he was headed to moscow. he later said he mentioned it to sessions. sessions apparently forgot. >> i'm not aware of any of those activities. >> he also forgot another meeting with dislak in july. >> i did not have communications with russians. >> after a speech on july 7th, he speak with the deputy minister and reported it back to the campaign. on july 7th, paul manafort, then trump campaign chairman get an e-mail to an intermediary of a kremlin ally offering private briefings on the campaign according to "the washington post." the offer was kept secret. >> are there any ties between mr. trump, you, or your campaign, and putin and his
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regime? >> no, there are not. it's absurd. >> all this as the republican national convention softened the party platform's position on arming ukraine against russian aggression and the start of the democratic convention was marred by wikileaks' release of thousands of stolen dnc e-mails that showed party officials' opposition to bernie sanders during the primary fight. but trump brushed off suspected foreign involvement. >> russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. i think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. >> august in multiple interviews trump confidant roger stone claimed to have a back channel to wikileaks while privately communicating with another hacker. on august 2nd 1st, stone tweeted a promise. it will soon be podesta's time in the barrel, and need this assertion days later.
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>> i'm almost confident that mr. aassange has virtually every one of the e-mails that the clinton hench women deleted. >> a week after manafort was ousted over reports of secret payments from ukraine, replaced by sooteve bannon and kellyanne conway at the urging of mercer. mercer asked the ceo of her family's data firm cambridge analytica working for the trump campaign to reach out to wikileaks to help organize the clinton e-mails it was releasing. wikileaks turned them down. as the cia told members of congress about russian interference and trump received security briefings, trump continued to cast doubt. >> putin recently said the hacking of the democratic national convention e-mails was a public service. do you agree? >> i don't have any opinion on it. i don't know anything about it. i don't know who hacked. i'm not sure who. i mean, you tell me. who hacked.
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>> september th, jeff sessions had another meeting with the russian ambassador that he forgot. >> i did not have communications with the russians. >> on september 20th, wikileaks contacted donald trump junior with the password of an anti-trump website. hours later, trump junior responded and then according to the atlantic, relayed the message to senior members of the trump campaign including bannon, conway, digital director and kushner who reportedly forwarded it to hope hicks. then wednesday, hillary clinton is done with a hash tag, wikileaks. >> i have a back channel communications with wikileaks, but they certainly don't clear or tell me in advance what they're going to do. >> two days later trump junior asked behind the wednesday leak i keep reading about. there was no response. on october 7th th as trump came under fire for the access
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hollywood tape. wikileaks released the batch of podesta's e-mails. the same day u.s. intelligence said wikileaks disclosures were consistent with russian-directed efforts but nevertheless, trump praised them. >> wikileaks, i love wikileaks. >> on october 12th, wikileaks urged trump junior to share a link to spread their stories. 15 minutes later, candidate trump sent a tweet about the little pickup by the dishonest media of wikileaks' incredible information. >> i am not quoting myself. >> she has no idea. >> i am 17 -- do you doubt 17 -- >> our country has no idea. >> the mystery of trump and putin has lingered long beyond election day. when trump's upset made the data points much more significant. what do they suggest? consequence in collusion? perhaps only one prosecuter knows and soon we will too. >> you can go to msnbc.com to
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watch the full report. obviously bob mueller knows more than that. a lot more than that. but my gosh, this is almost like a snowball rolling a lot of people being pulled into the snowball. >> window into how bob mueller is operating. when we heard the initial claims about paul manafort, the indictment there. then turned out the big bombshell was the plea agreement with george papadopoulos. no one saw that coming. mueller is clearly working behind the scenes. also important to sit and watch a comprehensive piece like that. there's such a cloud of information and disinformation. who met with whom and when and why. what was the purpose of the meet. important to watch that as you keep track of all this. and remind yourself of the sheer number of times people in the trump administration have either forgotten a meeting that had are a russian or didn't disclose
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something on a form. >> during the transaction at the beginning of the campaign, donald trump for president, mike pence the vice president. all of the president's men all said we didn't talk to any russians. we never talked to any russians during the campaign. we can line those up and look at the timeline and you just see they were lying through their teeth, all of them. >> and cukushner is in there to with his inability to remember the russians. the importance of the line is lay out the wikileaks connection and see how trump was tweeting things about leaks from wikileaks within minutes of don junior having some contact from wikileaks saying what about the story we're about to start pushing. that's why it's important to look at the timeline. we don't know if there was any direct collusion between the president and the russians or if there was ever any quid pro quo offered by campaign members to the russians that would constitute something that was
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illegal. >> rick, you look at especially the relationship between the president and don junior. sir, months ago thought there was no connection with russia. brings up the first point, don junior gets direct message from wikileaks. talking about all the things they've done. 15 minutes later, donald trump goes and tweets out basically what wikileaks wants them to tweet out. nobody is paying attention. which wikileaks wanted don junior to draw his people's attention to it. then, of course. there's a meeting where it's donald trump and not his lawyers writing -- putting together falls statement on air force one
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about the don junior meeting saying it was about adoption when it was of course about getting dirt from the russian government about hillary clinton. >> it's all very damming. what i got from the report is essentially five things. the russians did interfere with the election. this is important. they interfered for trump. there's no question about that. numerous members of the campaign have met with prorussians. we're learning more about that. trump tried to shutdown the russia investigation by firing comey. told that to nbc lester holt. we've never seen the tax returns. that's i think the american people need to know if this president is actually kompb immuni compromised in any way. >> got a feeling bob mueller has. still ahead. new reporting from the daily beast claims the white house was
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planning to distance itself from roy moore until steve bannon reportedly stepped in. how long can the president stay silent on the race in alabama. the list of accuse ed powerl men grows, she asks the provacative question, are we now at risk of overreacting. morning joe is coming back. ♪ that you'll ever need ♪ staying ahead isn't about waiting for a chance. ♪ because one is... it's about the one bold choice you make that moves you forward. ♪ ...that you ever need the one and only cadillac escalade. come in for our season's best offers and drive out with the perfect 2017 cadillac escalade for you. get this low mileage lease from around $899 per month. ( ♪ ) was supposed to be a wakeund reup call for our government?sh people all across the country lost their savings, their pensions and their jobs. i'm tom steyer and it turned out that the system that had benefited people like me who are well off,
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was, in fact, stacked against everyone else. it's why i left my investment firm and resolved to use my savings for the public good. but here we are nine years later and this president and the republican congress are making a bad situation even worse. they won't tell you that their so called "tax reform" plan is really for the wealthy and big corporations, while hurting the middle class. it blows up the deficit and that means fewer investments in education, health care and job creation. it's up to all of us to stand up to this president. not just for impeachable offenses, but also to demand a country where everyone has a real chance to succeed. join us. your voice matters. hesumatra reserve told in the time it takes to brew your cup. let's go to sumatra. where's sumatra? good question. this is win. and that's win's goat, adi. the coffee here is amazing. because the volcanic soil is amazing.
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dad: molly! trash! ( ♪ ) whoo! ( ♪ ) mom: hey, molly? it's time to go! (bell ringing) class, let's turn to page 136, recessive traits skip generations. who would like to read? ( ♪ ) molly: i reprogrammed the robots to do the inspection. it's running much faster now. see? it's amazing, molly. thank you. ( ♪ ) with us onset washington
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anchor for bbc world american news, catty k. now msnbc pretty contributor rick tyler and surprise running columnist and associate editor for "washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. >> we also have willie geist. >> always good to have you. >> hosting thanksgiving. >> oh, really. >> hosting. 35-40 people. >> don't forget to take the little bag out of the turkey. >> that's important. melted plastic is not a good dish. >> if i were a real man, that's what i would be doing. put the duck inside the turk. >> that's what you're doing, right? >> don't forget to turn the oven on too. that's a mistake i made. really good tip. >> what plan? >> we're going to friends for thanksgiving. i've never hosted thanksgiving. i have though admit. i host christmas lunch a lot.
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it's an adopted holiday for me. >> alex, reminded me, kids at home. you know what they call thanksgiving in britain? thursday. what are you going to be doing? >> my father is hosting. my wife and i are cooking. >> are you a big cook. >> my wife is unbelievable cook. i'm okay. what about you? >> i'm just navigating. >> peanut and jelly sandwiches. we have a lot to get to this morning. yesterday we learned that charlie rose, the co-anchor of cbs this morning and contributor on 60 minutes has been suspended from cbs news. and pbs announced it would no longer distribute his long running nightly interview show. it comes after "the washington post" reported yesterday that eight women accused him of sexual harassment. according to the paper, the women were either employees or the charlie rose show or aspired
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to work there between late 1990s and 2011. they ranged in age from 21 to 36. a lot of the allegations are situations where they were working in his home or they were traveling with him and they were in hotel suites. the allegations reported by the post include lewd phone calls, groping, and rose walking around naked in front of the women. one of rose's accusers, former assistant in the mid 2000s, said she told ivette vega, rose's long time executive producer about the lewd calls, but that vega slhrugged it off. in a statement to the post, vega said she should have done more to protect the young women, adding, quote, this is a female manager whose name is being brought up in all of this. in a lot of the stories we've covered so far, we'll talk more about this later, the framework that sets up the situation that
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enables behavior like this, those manager's names we haven't heard. ivette svega is coming forward saying i should have stood up for them. i failed. it's crushing. i deeply regret not helping them. in a statement charlie rose said this. >> i deeply apologize for my inappropriate behavior. i'm greatly embarrassed. i've behaviored incense bli at time and i accept responsibility for that though i do not believe all of these allegations are accurate. meanwhile, allegations of sexual misconduct continue to be a major factor in alabama senate race. in interview with today show one of roy moore's accusers leigh corfman described how then 32-year-old moore tried to seduce her when she was 14. >> he basically laid out some blankets on the floor of his living room and proceeded to seduce me, i guess, you would
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say. and during the course of that, he removed my clothing. he left the room and came back in wearing his white underwear and he touchdown me over my clothing, what was left of it. and he tried to get me to touch him as well. and at that point, i pulled back and said that i was not comfortable and i got dressed and he took me home, but i was a 14-year-old child trying to play in an adult's world and he was 32 years old. >> roy moore denies these allegations and further says he does not even know you. >> i wonder how many mes he doesn't know. >> as for the campaign, moore's camp says it has raised over $100 million a day. comes to $100,000 a day.
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that's compared to democrat doug jones who d $250,000 a day. yesterday, a cabinet meeting, trump, the president once again, dodged questions about moore and his accusers. white house spokesperson sarah huckabee sanders said the president wants a congress that supports his agenda, but leaves a decision on moore up tow the voters. >> would you be pleased if roy moore wins his senate race in alabama. would the white house be pleased with that option? >> obviously the president wants people both in the house and senate that support his agenda, but as i've said and as the hatch act prints me from going any further, we certainly think this is something that the people of alabama should decide. >> eugene robinson, you write in your column, the only way to defeat roy moore, this.
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can the decent of american political culture into ugly tribalism be halted? alabama voters will give their answer when they decide whether to send roy moore to the u.s. senate. fact that most of his supporters thus far are sticking with him he has convinced many alabama yans that child molestation is a lesser sin than believing in the constitution separation of church and state. moore uses angry christianity as tool of self, he uses the trust and passion of the alabamians he he frauds to women who fraifbra testify to vile and creepy behavior. moore is not invincible. he can be defeated. only if alabamians decide that honor, integrity, and morality are more important than tribe. >> we've been talking about tribalism among republicans and democrats for quite some time. at this point, we're going to
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find out how far down you can define decency in democracy. this really is -- this is trump tested it to a degree. enough people loathed hillary clinton and the clintons that they voted for a guy they didn't trust, didn't believe and didn't respect, but here, we go even lower. >> absolutely. this is the lowest of the low, i hope. i hope we never go lower than this. this is a phenomena that has really affected american politics and arguably overtaken american politics. tribe is the only reason to vote for -- for anybody to vote for roy moore at this point. it's not about policy really because in fact he would be as much of a pain in the behind for mitch mcconnell as doug jones would in terms of supporting the republican agenda. he's lashing out more at the republican establishment than he is at democrats at this point in
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this crisis for his campaign. so really just because he's a republican and because doug jones is a democrat, that is the only reason he is -- he retains -- in my opinion any support at this point. >> willie, you can see this tribalism over the past couple of decades and see that the impact is that it gets people voting against a candidate instead of for a candidate and you see that in these republican events whether it's in california where john mccain was booed by california republican audience or in south florida this past weekend with the names of george w. bush once again booed by south florida republicans. because they're not voting for people. they're just voting against the clintons. voting against the obamas. >> this is tribalism to the extreme. this is talking about protecting a guy that's been accused by a
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number of women, underage women, sexual contact with them or harassment in some way. if you're willing to protect the tribe at the cost of a 14-year-old girl, you need to re-evaluate yourself and your tribalism. we had alabama pastor who was out yesterday who supports roy moore and said something along the lines of, they must have had some sweet dreams somewhere down the line talking about these young women about why they would be making this up about roy moore. some 14-year-olds that could pass for 20. that's a pastor. a man of god defending the behavior of roy moore and basically throwing all of these women under the bus and saying they must have dreamed this up to get attention. >> then you had somebody in a focus group who said jesus christ could come down from the cross and tell me that donald trump was involved in russia and i would tell him hold on a second, i need to ask the president if that's true. this is a bizarre group of extraordinarily weak minded
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people. weak pathetic sad people. who will blindly follow donald trump over their god in the case of that, but again, this personality cult, this is what you see at the beginning of the rise of any autocracy. this will not happen here, but not for the lack of a lot of really stupid people who actually will choose trump over their god, trump over their party, trump over their ideology, trump over their moral patterns, trump over everything that their mothers and fathers taught them growing up. i'm not talking about all trump supporters, but there is a group of trump supporters that agree like this guy. i don't care what jesus says, i just care what donald trump says. >> one time we can always expect some kind of moral authority from the white house. the white house seemed to be on the right track at first.
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kellyanne conway said no senate seat is worth a child. came out yesterday and completely reversed herself on that apparently a senate seat is worth a child, but what's particularly disappointing is the pastors. because you should expect moral authority from pastors. in some ways this is not new. in joshua's time they answered the god of sexuality. the god of prosperity. and the god of human sacrifice. thank goodness we don't have gods of prosperity and gods of sexuality anymore. these pastors have assembled with a sheer of polls which is the worship of the dpgod of sexuality next to all terrors. it has got to be really confusing and disappointing to christians who are looking at the race and looking at the lack of moral leadership on what to do and who to support in in race. >> not just the pastors, there's a state congressman in alabama
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who has gone so far in his bid to protect the trial as you were saying willie to say actually the victim here is roy moore and the people who should be prosecuted are the women who came forward, if he was guilty of these things, they have protected a predator over the last 20 years. it's their fault. they are the ones to blame. >> yes. and it's a lot of layers of this. >> stunning logic. >> we play the sound bite. i would encourage the pastors and other people saying what they say about these women just watch the interview that leigh corfman did with savannah. just watch and see if she's excelling. see if you think she's in it for any other reason. >> this tribalism. you sound like republicans in 1999. 2000. and beyond. just look at the tape of ra k-- >> republicans don't want to do it now. >> not all. >> you got some in the senate
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who come out and said he should not be elected and he doesn't deserve a place in the senate, but down in alabama, there are a group of people including pastors and locally elected officials and local party chairman who are circling the wagons purely with the interest of protecting their own. and they will go as far as saying that these women are to blame. they would elect a pedophile over a democrat in order to protect the tribe. we'll have more on this conversation straight ahead. dig into some of the must reads tackling this very issue, including ruth marcus writing in the "washington post" about how al franken's accusation plays into all of this. she'll join us. first, north korea is back on america's list of state sponsored terrorists if diplomacy was hard before, it's possibly not possible now. we're going to ask that question to a leading expert. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. so, that goal you've been saving for,
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today the united states is designating north korea as a state sponsor of terrorist should have happened a long time ago. should have happened years ago. in addition to threatening the world by nuclear devastation, north korea has repeatedly supported acts of international terrorism including assassination on foreign soil. north korean regime must be lawful. it must end unlawful nuclear ballistic missile development and cease all support for international terrorism. which it is not doing. >> it's really just the latest step in a series of as you can see, ongoing steps to increase the pressure, i call it the peaceful pressure campaign. the president calls it the maximum pressure campaign. so there's no confusion. they're one and the same. i think this is to hold north korea accountable for a number of actions they've taken over
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the last several months or the last year or so. this continues to tighten the pressure on the kim regime. all with an intention to have him understand this is only going to get worse until you're ready to come and talk. >> secretary of state rex tillerson, president trump with the decision to redesignate north korea state sponsor of terror. of course the north was originally added equity president reagan in 1988 after the bombing of south korean passenger jet, but the united states took them off the list in 2008 by president bush because they wanted him to jump start nuclear talks. bring in author and columnist for the dai lily beast. >> it does matter from a number of perspectives. brings a whole wrath of sanctions. they're minor. north korea is almost at a tipping point. for instance, junior officials in pyongyang, part of the favored class are not getting
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their rations from the special distribution channel. in other words, the ration system. we're hearing that loyalty payments which are essentially taxes are being accelerated because they don't have cash flow. and rex tillerson from the white house briefing room talked about fuel shortages. anything you can do to increase the pressure, even just a little bit can have a big affect. >> >> what does this mean pactically. they're on the list. how do we treat them differently. >> 12 things now added as sanctions. some of these were already sanctions. for instance, you can't sell weapons to north korea. we weren't selling weapons to north korea. the security resolution prohibits that. there are a few things the administration is required to do that it wasn't before, but they're pretty minor. going to the world bank and trying to prevent loans to north korea which weren't going to happen anyway. so there's a lot of things, but they're minor in the scheme of
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things. what's really important is president trump september 21 executive order. which said to the world, you do business with north korea, you're not doing business with the united states. >> i think rex tillerson was asked this yesterday, does this basically mean the white house is shifting away from an idea that china is going to be the key in putting pressure on north korea. >> no. i still think they're going to look to china. what's really going to be important are the treasury department sanctions which are announced today. president trump talked about them yesterday. >> how much more can we sanction? this is the most sanctioned country in the world. >> it is now. it wasn't a couple of months ago. important point here is not only new sanctions, but also enforcement of all sanctions. treasury department, justice department don't have enough people actually enforcing the sanctions in place. also a question of political will. does president trump have the political will to impose sanctions on china's backers. >> yes. that would mean putting pressure on china through sanctions are you suggesting to get them to
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enforce the sanctions that exist on north korea. >> absolutely. >> the america prepared to go that far. >> i don't know. you would think not because we haven't done that in the past. really the sanctions are quite severe. could be cut off trade with china. probably not going to happen, but what could happen are sanctions on chinese banks. either large fines or designations as primary money laundering concerns. essentially death sentences for international chinese banks. >> action by the trump administration strike you as something that would excel north korea to come to the table or to give up nuclear program or to kbel china to take action. in other words, strategically, what's the goal here. >> strategically the goal is to cut off off the money to kim regime so it can't launch missiles. detonate nuclears and politics.
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kim can't run the regime by itself. at that point, he realizes he has no choice, but to comply with the will of the international community. that's what the policy is. it's a very difficult and very dangerous act, but nonetheless, it's about the only one that's available if we're not going to use force. >> all right. gord gordon change. thank very much. coming up, what's the dividing line of sexual harassment and abuse. according to ruth marcus, al franken is not the same as harvey weinstein. ruth joins us with her new column, straight ahead on morning joe. we come into this world needing others. ♪ then we are told it's braver to go it alone. ♪
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but there is another way to live. ♪ a way that sees the only path to fulfillment- is through others. ♪
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senator jeff flake with his take on the stay of the republican party. caught on a hot mic over the weekend. joining us now, commentary
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editor for the washington examiner and visiting fellow at the american enterprise constitute, tim carney whose very healthy baby is watching right now. >> happy and healthy. >> thank god. >> thank you. column skpist and editor ate washington post" ruth marcus. and retiring from congress, member of the house committee on appropriations and former chair of the house ethics committee. congressman, i'll start with you. is the party toast? given the context in which jeff flake was saying on a hot mic from roy moore to donald trump? >> what i agree with on senator flake the roy moore would be a terrible addition to the senate. he should not be elected. he was qualified before the recent allegations of sexual misconduct. he should not be elected. i would never support a man like
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that. i agree with jeff flake we cannot become the party of roy moore. he's absolutely right about that. >> it seems to make a lot of sense. go ahead. >> what do you make out of the argument that they may find roy moore's behavior abhorrent, the goal is to get tax reform done and it would be easier with roy moore than doug jones. how does that argument sit with you. >> i categorically reject that argument. i believe the man was disqualified based on blatant disregard for constitutional limits. comments about religious minorities and lgbt community and others. i think were disqualifying. i just don't accept the argument that we have to have this man in the senate to help us with tax reform. that's absurd. we have to maintain some type of standards here. if we don't set a standard -- if we don't lay down a marker here,
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where will we. >> even before the allegations came up. said this guy is not a conservative. we don't want him in the senate anyway. so it's strange that now you've added these horrible allegations on top of this and it puts republicans and conservatives in the more difficult position. where do they go? what do they do? >> one thing you notice a lot of people saying when i talk to conservatives they say i would actually support doug jones except he's pro-choice and sort of very hard core. a lot of conservatives who that is a make or break issue. not going to go and vote for doug jones. there is the argument, even just a pragmatic argument, in the long run, i think you could see roy moore hurting the republicans and by the long run, i mean the 2018 election. in the next year and a half. certainly longer than that. i think standing behind bill clinton hurt the democrats in the long run. helped give us donald trump. i think you can make a similar argument that republicans are
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further than they did when they supported donald trump, but further harming themselves sort of selling the topsoil when they back moore. >> you're making that argument based on roy moore's positions on other issues, sexual harassment scandal stories notwithstanding or because of the stories. >> i say they compound each other. a guy that doesn't respect the constitution calling himself a conservative, that undermines the philosophy of conservative. if you tear down the separation of power and are limits on what congress can do, what the executive can do. so conservatism without those limits is not going to stand as conservatism. >> so let's get to ruth marcus who wrote a piece on what should happen to senator al franken, which by the way, the women of snl have just released letter on twitter in support in support of
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al franken. >> those guilty of misbehavior. the tendency revolutions to overcorrect for past sins. if seat once ignored sexual harassment, and we certainly did, one case in the case of al franken is overcompensating for earlier apathy. not all crimes deserve the death penalty, expulsion or resignation. the clamor for franken's head is premature. at worst, it is alarmingly extreme. i recoil at the employment equivalent of a mass death sentence for all sexual harassers. must they remain forever. is rehabilitation possible? is focus is and should be on victims, but as employers engage in overdue reckoning of how to rid workplaces of intolerable
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conduct, they, we are going to have to wrestle as well with how to treat the victimizers. ruth, the piece is amazing. it certainly prompted pretty incredible conversation on the first hour of the show this morning. i'm looking at this really interesting twitter conversation you had. go ahead. >> yes. >> no, so britain has been our britain, old friend, covered the clinton white house together back in the day and he's been arguing something that you've been talking about this a little bit also, mika, that one way we need to guard against is to make sure that women and men don't find themselves in situations where this could be problematic. my concern and it actually kind of goes to what you read at the end of that piece is not just that we're going to end up doing harm to people, overcorrecting and executing extreme punishment
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for people who might deserve some punishment, but not the death penalty, but also that it's going to end up hurting women in the workplace. women need to be in there having social and professional interactions with the people they work with in order to further their careers so we were having this conversation about, you know, i said i had been years ago in a hotel room with dave broeder, late "washington post" column skpis it was perfectly normal. we were working on a story. we needed a landline. olden days and neither one of us thought that it was in any way inappropriate and britain said well times have changed in my position is no, when you have grownups who understand the correct lines of behavior, men and women can be in hotel rooms
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together or restaurants together and we can be fine. >> i totally agree with that accept we have a multigenerational work force now. young people working alongside people in their 50s and 60s and sometimes doing the same job. we need to relook at norms that were accepted and in many cases went perfectly fine, but it's sort of like having a nurse in the room when you're going to doctor or something else. i do think that offsite interactions between men and women we need to look at them again and know that doesn't mean men all men can't control themselves and no that doesn't mean women have to -- can't be a part of things because certainly men might not be able to control themselves. just means we need to look at what's appropriate. we should be on the golf course. we should be at the dinners. we should be at the offsites on the hikes. we should be at the table. i'm just wondering if hotel rooms and drinking late at night
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much older manager, much younger woman, i'm thinking that's something people might want to rethink at this stage of the game. >> i think everybody needs to be careful. i think you make a really important point. men need to be careful to make sure that behavior that they don't mean as inappropriate, for example. you know, you touch someone on their shoulders. the hill is a very touchy place where men you know put their arms around men. well, if you put your arm around a woman, does it feel different not to you, but to that woman. >> right. >> by the way, i want to say i did write that franken piece before this other information came forward about the woman who alleges that he put his hand on his posterior and that's not okay if that's correct, but the way you behave as a comedian is one thing and i'm not saying that it was appropriate in any way. the way you behave at u.s. senator is quite another thing. we need to really we need to be both careful as you say, mika,
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in making sure that no one is put in an uncomfortable position unintentionally and we need to calibrate punishments in the way we think about things. >> it's interesting. we talked after your column came out and you had said that you were concerned about a negative reaction after it came out because you said in the end, you feared that this would end up hurting women. if there was too much of an overreach. if there was a death penalty for everybody and yet you were surprised you told me by your reaction to this. that it was overwhelmingly positive, explain that. i was worried. when you write something on a subject this passionately felt by everybody, you're going get people who cease on one sentence and misinterpret it. i was worried both that fen n feminists would think i wasn't taking sexual harassment seriously enough. i really try to.
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i've been writing about this for a long time. i am also worried that people will overreact. i got a lot of nice notes from people saying thank you for speaking up here and thank you for saying as you read not everyone supports the death penalty. of course because we're all triable now as you guys have been correctly talking about and amen on taking down those pastors to everybody who did just repulsive to support him. one of the things i also got is of course you're only sticking up were franken because he's a liberal and you're a liberal. that doesn't make sense. that doesn't make sense. conservatives have actually been coming out and i saw john yesterday raising questions about franken and a possible death penalty and possible firing. the national review wrote something this morning that we
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read so actually anybody attacking ruth for being triable has got it wrong. a lot of conservatives stepping forward and saying we don't like al franken's politics, but this is a step too far. >> and it's dizzy why is enough that i don't know whether i would call on franken to resign. certainly not a roy moore case. this is not a not gray a case as the al franken case. this is a case of him using power in office. congress kind of covered it up. if the accusations against john conner are true, this is where i expect ruth marcus being fair minded. this guy has to go. you can argue that conors isn't black as white a case as -- franken isn't as black a white a case. john conners, this is the worse abuse of power, sexual harassment that you can see.
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>> it would be interesting to see what ruth thinks on this. you look for patterns. in all of cases we look for patterns. is there just one accuser or often seem to be gent accusersut accusers. will there be others. then i think the sort of counter argument to saying well, she shouldn't have to step down is that if there were to be one or two or three more allegations, how does it then look to have somebody who is a sitting senator who gets away with this kind of behavior if we are trying to create safe work environments for women everywhere. >> so it looks really bad if there are two or three or four allegations. one thing we've learned this is not about senator franken, but in general, if there is one bad episode, there tends to be more.
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we've learned that time after time. we do need to do the trial and investigation before we pronounce the sentence. the thing about franken is it would be much more convenient for democrats were he to leave then we wouldn't be seeing that ghastly photograph all the time of democratic governor could name his replacement. it's not triable. i'm just trying to be fair, but the allegations, i read those last night. very serious. really raises the question of how the -- how capitol hill handles sexual harassment and it's clear nose nethose need to changed, those rules. >> what trial? where's the judge and jury and cops in any of cases? i'm not undermining the cases. in most of the cases that i have read about in everything, even close to our show, i believe the women. there's one that concerns me. i'm not the cops. i'm not the judge. i'm not the jury. i'm not even a lawyer.
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and so i'm going on patterns and journalism and behavior and talking about culture, which is why i want managers and midlevel people who enabled this behavior to come out of the shadows too and shine a light, but what do you mean by trial, who has been tried? >> totally fair question and probably i'm going to withdraw the word. i think that for example, when you look at the allegations involving roy moore first of all there's no real possibility for a trial. second of all, we don't have proof beyond a reasonable doubt standard in deciding who to elect. you just use your judgment. and anybody can listen to those women and watch that incredibly poignant interview and make a decision about who is telling the truth, the women are clearly telling the truth. >> correct. in a situation that's much more ambiguous where you like for example franken, where you do have this allegation and it was before he was in the senate, i do think it's fair to say
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there's a process where it involves the senate ethics committee. we can have something that looks like a little bit more due process where things are -- the allegations are not as serious and more ambiguous. let's use process when we have process. congressman, you are in a unique position sitting on capitol hill where the story is emanating and others as well. what's the level of concern do you medical leave on capitol hill among your colleagues even who believe their name may be the next one to come up in a report. >> well, i think there should be some concern for some members. not most members, obviously, but i would like to just say something about resignations and expulsions. again, as former chairman of the house ethics committee, i have dealt with a lot of these types of situations. in the history of the house, i believe there's six or seven members who have been expelled. i think four of them were during the civil war for treason.
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those are the expulsions. when john boner was speaker and we had issues of misconduct of misbehavior. resignations were often forced. i could list seven or eight resignations i had some familiarity with. members who stepped down for conduct that was short of criminal. sometimes later it became criminal, but we dealt with these issues and the committee process, the only things we can do to members on the ethics committee, we have four sanctions that we can impose. expulsion being the most serious. reprimand, letter of approval. i will tellout i've dealt with situations where we reprimanded them and i will often have people say that's a slap on the rest. anything short of expulsion is a slap on the wrist. i think that's unfair. that's often the case. i'll tell you, when you have these situations often, many members will resign because they realize they need to deal with own personal issues and hard to
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deal with issues while at the same time facing a very serious ethics investigation that will cost a lot of money and aggravation to everybody. >> congressman, thank you very much. ruth marcus. we'll be reading your column in the "washington post." we must speak again about this. this is an incredible conversation. tim, stay with us. up next in the wake of russia's metaling in the u.s. election, we'll hear from a former facebook employee who says the company cannot be trusted to regulate itself. keep it right here on morning joe. (♪)
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up next, it was partially struck down on appeal now the trump administration is asking the supreme court to allow full travel ban to take effect. fortunes legal ge gallagher is with the reporting. keep it right here on morning joe. it's what this country is made of.
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staff meeting. noon? eating. 3:45? uh, compliance training. 6:30? sam's baseball practice. 8:30? tai chi. yeah, so sounds relaxing. alright, 9:53? i usually make their lunches then, and i have a little vegan so wow, you are busy. wouldn't it be great if you had investments that worked as hard as you do? yeah. introducing essential portfolios. the automated investing solution that lets you focus on your life. all right, joining us now, senior editor at large for "fortune" magazine, leigh gallagher. also founder of women for women international and women in the world editor at large, zanea zalbe. we met at a harvard institute of politics event. >> we did. >> we talked about politics on
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the stage, but backstage, all we could talk about was the me too movement and the wave of sexual harassment accusations that were pouring through. you and i and joe, we talked about the concern that ruth marcus has brought to the table in some ways about overcorrection. can you tell us a little bit more about your concerns there? >> well, it's so good being with you on the show today. yes, i'm worried about it, mika. you know, we have to have a conversation. it's one thing to name names, you know, harvey weinstein, charlie rose or whatever. it's another thing to talk about the structure and the system that has created these issues. this is not only one individual, this is an institutional issue, where women have been sexualized in the media sector and the advertising sector and the fashion sector and hollywood sector and politic sector. for us, we need to talk about the larger issue. second, we need to talk about for me it's all about the big
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picture. the fact that women are underpaid for every dollar that a man gets paid. >> right. >> is very much correlated to sexual harassment. it's not only about touching women, it's about how women are perceived at the workforce. we're not perceived as equal. when we're not getting paid equally, we're also being not treated equally. the third reason is we need to have a dialogue and discussion. what i'm afraid of what we're doing right now is we are going at it only at the big guys. think about all the small guys that are out there or the small women in the low rankings and what they're facing in their sexual harassments. no one will be hearing them. we need to have a discussion about what's happened, how did we get here and how did we get out of here. i'd rather someone like charlie rose, for example, do a series on sexual harassment and for him to understand what happened and the issues that are at stake and what women feel like and men feel like rather than him just being sacked all of a sudden overnight. we need to have a discussion so
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this does not make people fearful or closing off, rather than moving forward on how do we change the larger system enabling this mass treatment of women. >> so many incredible points here. we're going to have her back on the seat when we can. leigh, do you want to chime in? when we're looking at all levels of all industries, this is an issue where if there is an overcorrection, you know what's going to happen, one of the concerns is that accusers will go back to being vilified and opposition research. there are men that want to talk about what they've done. >> yes, that's true, certainly that's a concern, especially as a lot of companies -- this came up at our summit last week, one of the moderators said, well, what about these zero tolerance policies. >> right. >> is that going to inhabit people from coming forward because if you say anything, the person could get canned and certainly right now we are hypersensitive about it. which is kind of good to see after so many years of -- >> no, i love the conversation.
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>> -- hidden, completely hidden. but i think that is a lesser concern than the fact that this stuff has been going on for decades and it is finally coming out. we asked at our most powerful women summit who here has been sexually harassed and hands shot up. so this is pervasive. everyone knew. that's another theme that's coming i. there's a tremendous relief that people are coming forward. and also starting to talk about the things that you can do to actually start to prevent this. we can talk about it a lot but there are tangible things you can do in the workplace to help make it more comfortable for people to come forward and to prevent it. one of those things is 50/50. you know, the ceo of open table said when the management team is 50/50, this stuff melts away, because it starts at the top. so these are some of the things
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that came up. >> mika, she was talking about dialogue. >> yes. >> and that's what you've been saying all along is what's critical for this to be positive and you say time and time again, there has to be a dialogue, there has to be a positive dialogue that brings everybody into the discussion. >> yes, and we'll get to your marriott ceo interview, but that's the dialogue we're having. leigh pointed out, in many of these cases, everyone knew. it was even joked about in cases of charlie rose or whatever. and it was considered okay in some ways when you joke about it or accept it or know it's happening. were all pieces of this puzzle. >> it includes all of us women also. we all in a way tolerated a culture that we enabled, you know, people to treat us in a sexualized way. we have seen it in front of us. when you talk about the larger
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issue and you look at the advertising world or the fashion world, when we see our own sexualization and we look in the other direction, do you see what i mean? we're not necessarily purely victim. we're also complicit in this structure we have created where women are purely sexualized. the dialogue has to be back and forth. that does not exclude what's wrong is wrong, but what i'm afraid is going to backfire on our women's rights if we do not engage in a way that we can have a discussion to move forward. >> so you're a part of women for women international, i was just wondering how this conversation plays in many of the countries that you work in where women of course face far more precarious situations than they do here. what are they making of this? >> well, it's easier, you know. i work in conflict areas so it's easier to see the victimization of women conflict areas in afghanistan and iraq and all these things. it is different to see it in america where we have nice suits and nice clothes, all of these things. but the core of it, the core of
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looking at women as second class citizens is the same basically. one is expressing itself in very radical severe culture difference that we look at it and, like, look at those people, but it's happening here. i actually just came from the middle east and this coverage about what's happening with women's movement in america is all over the middle east. but they -- and it's actually penetrating where many men in business, they are asking and the discussion over there, they're saying we don't understand, can you explain to us what women are feeling. we don't understand. so this is -- i think there's some of it healthy dialogue. sometimes women are just going, you treated us this way and this way and this way. >> right. >> and that's fine but they're also saying can you teach us what do we need to do, what do we need to do. so i'm hoping that it openings a new dialogue of engagement in here, rather than just severe punishment immediately. >> so very, very complicated conversation that you have dove into with great bravery. so i just want to say that the
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portion of what you said right before catty asked a question, before you jump all over here on twitter or criticize her by saying somehow are victimized again by these comment, listen to it again. what she's asking for is we all have a conversation and that we're all a part of it and perhaps we get to a new level of conduct in the workplace where everybody is a part of the solution. men need to be in this dialogue. men cannot just be cut down and cut out. the ones who want to talk about it, the ones who want to apologize and address what they've done in its raw form, i want to hear from them. i want to hear who else was a part of it. i want to hear who enabled it. i want to hear from the women. what zanabe is saying is if we don't do that, we're just cutting people down and we're going back to where we were, which is going to make men very defensive and they're not going to want us as a part of the conversation at all at work. this is hard to do.
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this is very -- i know, you're cringing right now because you know what's going to happen. leigh gallagher, i owe you a conversation on your interview with arnie and the other -- so we will have you back. >> that's great. >> this is something we have to do. we're going to have an honest conversation here or we're not going to have it at all. leigh gallagher, zanabe, thank you. we would love to continue the conversation. if it feels comfortable enough for you. we'll see what happens. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks, mika. it is hard to do. but with people like mika, we're going to do it. good morning, i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover today, starting with a fury of allegations against longtime television host charlie rose. >> the wave of sexual abuse allegations we've been reporting from hollywood to washington has now touched cbs news. >> eight women allege unwanted sexual advances including nudity, groping and lewd phone calls. the

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