Skip to main content

tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  November 24, 2017 8:00pm-9:00pm PST

8:00 pm
it's turning colors. this is a beautiful thing and a great honor, thank you very much. you can follow my tweets @lawrence. follow my show @thelastword and that is tonight's last word. tonight on "all in". >> there's been no collusion. >> what we know about the investigation into president trump. the case for collusion, the case for obstruction. >> at this time president is worried that i was fired because of russian investigation. >> what the following the money could reveal. >> we all know why donald trump isn't releasing his taxes. he's hiding something. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. for weeks now, the president and his allies special counselor
8:01 pm
robert mueller doesn't have far to go before he clears the president and his inner circle of wrong doing. be you in the wake of the first guilty plea last month, it's clear the president faces legal jeopardy on both fronts. there are his business entanglements which remain opaque, the special counsel has already signalled he's in the afraid to follow the money, indicting paul manafort and rick gates on fraud charges. there was the president's decision to fire james comey in the middle of the probe, a move he told lester holt as unrelated. then there's the central question of collusion. did the president or his campaign cooperate with russian operatives engaged in the effort to undermine the election? lots of political observers are
8:02 pm
holding out for a gun. meantime, there's already a circumstantial case for collusion staring us right in the face, showing each size was working toward a common goal and both sides. carrying out a wave of attacks specifically directed at one of two political parties. we also know the other party's candidate donald trump took extraordinary pains to avoid never saying anything bad or critical about russia. >> we get along very well with vladimir putin. i just think so. he's running the country and at least he's a leader. other than -- the pop later.
8:03 pm
what's wrong with having russia work with us instead of always fighting. what's wrong with having russia drop bombs all the hell over isis? what's wrong with that? he is very much of a leader. had man has very strong control over his country. it's a different system and i don't like the system, be you in that system he has been a leader far more than our president has been a leader. i don't think anybody knows it's russia that broke into the dnc. maybe it was. could have been russia. or china. or lots of other people. would have been somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pound, okay? if we got along well, that would be good. if russia and the united states got along well be intent after isis, that would be good. >> on top of that, we know now multiple trump campaign officials jumped at the chance to work with russian proxies behind the scenes, including the president's son who was eager to
8:04 pm
collect russian government dirt on hillary clinton, george p. agents before the inauguration, meeting that is in every case, they either neglected to disclose or forgot about. joining me now is an esteemed panel of experts. nick actorman, former assistant special watergate prosecutor. natasha richard and malcolm nance, a former career u.s. intelligence officer. >> let's start with just the condition septemb concept of the term. it's become the term that everyone throws around.
8:05 pm
collusion. it's the term they deny, be it has no specific legal meaning. >> the only legal means it could possibly have the conspiracy. it's the conspiracy so violate a low or defraud the government or violate the computer fraud and abuse act. so conspiracy does have -- collusion has a legal meaning within conspiracy, which is a crime. >> that's a technical specific way. to me, there's also the idea of what would constitute collusion over what we know. i want to play this sound from the president. if this was secretly said and we discovered it, it would be lierk, this is the smoking gun. this is the president asking rush russia, while looking at the camera to find hillarys e-mails. >> russia, if you're listening,
8:06 pm
i hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. i think you will be rewarded mightily by our press. >> that is -- if we found out the president secretly sent a message to a back channel in russia or through a cutout saying could you find hillary's e-mails, that would be the smoke gun. >> i think you're right. i think everyone's looking for the smoking gun when it's staring us in the face. we know trump called on russia to release the hacked e-mails. rem we know wikileaks was talking the don jr. we know both sides were open to some kind of collaboration. >> it's clear that russian agents were attempting to penetrate the trump campaign, perhaps gauge how game they would be.
8:07 pm
do you think with the facts we know that it's possible that the conspiracy, in nick's terms, goes just as far as what we know, but that's enough to send the signals back and forth to the two parties of what each side is doing? >> yes, i think we already have all the information we need from these circumstantial bit offense evidence. you're looking for now is what we call the bridge. you want to see the orders, the minutes from the meeting that says, please do this for us, but in the mueller investigation, he has that information. there is just no way he doesn't have it. and the very fact that he's going around through money laundering first, that's how they squeezes these witnesses and works his way. to conspiracy against the united states. for the most part, we are just going to have to be satisfied with the fact that the data we
8:08 pm
are getting is from the news media. when mueller lays out his case -- and i think it will and explosive. i don't think it will be circumstantial. first he'll have money laundering tied uptight so these people talk. >> my theory has been two people painting aface on either side of the fence. they're maybe even talking to each other, and they're colluding in that sense, but they're not like, i'll buy you paint, you hand me a brush. that was my thought until the don jr. e-mail from gold stone. that, you know, is just so shockingly incriminating. i want to read it again. he just called and asked me to contact you with something interesting. in their meeting offered to provide the trump campaign with documents that would incriminate hillary that would be very
8:09 pm
useful to your father. this is high level and sensitive information, but as part of russia's support for donald trump -- don jr., say, i love it, especially later in the summer. that to me indicates they were not smart or crafty enough to not put those things in e-mail. there could be other things malcolm calls the bridge. >> we had it in an e-mail, the intent to collude there. we had them meeting with a russian lawyer in the hopes of getting dirt on hillary clintonme clintonment. i think it's easy to get into the weeds on this and lose sight of the fact that the intent was there. the campaign clearly wanted to work with the russians to get information to help them. it continues into september when we saw donald trump jr. e-mailing with wikileaks.
8:10 pm
that was after they released the e-mails and donald trump jr. was saying, do you have anything else? >> that also seemed a huge development. that's where, if the conspiracy comes together, if there's a pointed spear where it really injects itself into the american media, it's through wikileaks. >> it's huge. conspiracy is basically an agreement to commit a crime. you can prove an agreement through circumstantial evidence. you don't need a bridge. here wikileakss is enormous. the only thing we now about was roger stone's connection with wikileaks. we learned about don jr. dealing with it. passing the information to don senior, who said the very thing that is wikileaks asked him to say. >> that's incredibly incriminating. they say, hey, will you tweet this out. next thing you know, the
8:11 pm
candidate, donald trump is tweeting out the thing that julian assange -- >> three days later, don jr. is tweeting out the url so they can view the documents. >> don't go anywhere. to keep their global campus connected. and why a pro football team chose us to deliver fiber-enabled broadband to more than 65,000 fans. and why a leading car brand counts on us to keep their dealer network streamlined and nimble. businesses count on communication, and communication counts on centurylink.
8:12 pm
8:13 pm
8:14 pm
there is no collusion between me and my campaign and the russians. there has been no collusion. there has been leaking by comey, but there's been no collusion, no obstruction and virtually everybody agrees on that. they're leaving meetings saying
8:15 pm
we haven't found any collusion. you know why? i don't speak russians. there's been absolutely no collusion. it's been stated there's been to collusion. i think the american public is sick of it. >> we were talking about this revelation which, to me, gets me closer to what malcolm nance called the bridge. some moment where someone says to someone else, push the button. we know don junior was in reported communication with wikileaks. you were skeptical of that exchange. >> i was skeptical because don jr. doesn't come out looking horrific. i'm not sure we are going get to that point where everything falls in place. >> the bridge, the smoking gun. >> it's an incredibly messy thing. there's a lot of moving parts,
8:16 pm
pieces. the russians were trying a ton of approaches, throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what would stick. >> malcolm, i want you to to that. who knows? we don't know what we don't know. to miriam's point, the russians could conclude, the these people will play ball. donald trump will defend our interests in public, so we should kick it into higher gear because we have run it up the flagpole a couple of times and they said, hey, we are down to clownment so the question of is it necessary for there to be a bridge? >> well, there is necessary to be a bridge. what i wrote in my book last year on this -- you don't have to have all the evidence in the intelligence community. we extrapolate. and start looking for those
8:17 pm
bridges, the arcs to the other side. you have to remember the mueller investigation has the fbi fisa warrants that were out before any of us knew that this was in operation, not just manaforts but papa dopolous. that has to be declassified and turned over into evidence as to whatever is going to happen. i'm sure we are going find that bridge. >> nick, i also think it's possible, the bridge doesn't happen before the election, but after the election, there's something that looks like that. we know there's a lot of contact happening in the transition that looks more up close and personal. the famous phone calls from flynn to kislyak. >> yeah, but i think we see the
8:18 pm
bridge before that, the actually glue that hold us all together are the stolen documents from the dnc. we know as early as april that the trump campaign knew there were these stolen documents out there. we always know in that e-mail from june 3rd sent to gold stone -- the piece you left out there was a piece about there being highly sensitive information that i was going send to your father's secretary, but instead i'm going bring it myself. to me, that has to mean the stolen e-mails. >> there's nothing else that would make sense. >> there's no evidence -- you seem skeptical of that. >> i think it's been revealed that it's part of the whole anti-magnitsky campaign. >> the question is whether we think their reliable narraters. >> i think that's a story
8:19 pm
they're feeding to the press. what they found themselves with was all these stolen documents a felony under state law and a crime under the federal statute. roger stone farmed it out and everybody else jumped on it. kushner, don junior and the president and they made a complete positive deniable so they wouldn't be stuck with the stolen documents. >> the last thing i'll say, and let me go back to you malcolm, is the idea of so much deception and deceit and forgetting about the contacts. the thing that sticks out to me the most is saying they forgot about the me mails. russian government says they're trying to help your bad. no one says anything until it becomes obvious to the public and you send the candidate out
8:20 pm
to on base percentafew skate ab >> the stolen documents from the dnc was began one year before the donald trump's nomination. win or lose, they were going to lose that data. when they brought it to the rnc, to the trump team, that was transitioning. don't forget about the november michael cohen e-mail where he says the russians are looking out for us by the time this got donald trump jr. -- i think he's going to be turn out to be the nexus of all dirty tricks. he has shown up in three separate data points that he was his father's exec tiff officer and flynn was the intelligence and operations officer to get these dirty tricks done. >> to end on this note -- the idea that no one ever told
8:21 pm
donald trump senior about that trump tower meeting is wildly implausible to me. malcolm nance, thanks so much tonight. what will robert mueller find as he follows donald trump's money? next, did the president try to impede the investigation? we'll look toat the firing of james comey after this. >> it's my judgment i was fired because of russia investigation. i was fire in the some way to change the ray the russian investigation was being conducted. that is a very big deal. a tiny sword? bread...breadstick? a matchstick! a lamppost! coin slot! no? uhhh... 10 seconds. a stick! a walking stick! eiffel tower, mount kilimanjaro! (ding) time! sorry, it's a tandem bicycle. what? what?! as long as sloths are slow, you can count on geico saving folks money.
8:22 pm
fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.
8:23 pm
♪ on the only bed that adjusts on both sides to ultiyour ideal comfortweek your sleep number setting. and snoring? does your bed do that? it's the final days of ultimate sleep number week. save 50% on the ultimate limited edition bed with adjustable comfort on both sides. ends monday.
8:24 pm
visit sleepnumber.com for a store near you.
8:25 pm
if robert mueller ultimately presents evidence president trump tried to obstruction justice, it maybe in plain sight. president trump's firing op james comey is potential obstruction of justice. rod rosenstein, citing, i cannot defend the director's handling the conclusion to the handling of secretary clinton's e-mails. james comey had been unfair to hillary clinton was farfetched. the next night, the president confirmed as much that he was
8:26 pm
going to fire him with or without rosenstein. >> regardless of recommendation i was going to fire comey knowing that there was no good time to do it. in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story. it's an excuse fbi democrats for having lost an election they should have won. when i did this now, i said, i probably maybe will confuse people. maybe i'll expand that. i'll lengthen the time. because it should be over with. should have been over with a long time ago, because all it is is an excuse. >> he admitted he had grown enraged by the investigation. it was later revealed when president trump met with officials in the oval office one
8:27 pm
day after firing comey, in the meeting the president told the russians, quote, i just fired the head of of the fbi. he was real crazy. a nut job. i faced pressure because of russia. that's taken off. i want to bring in jill wine banks. you worked on the watergate prosecution. there was the famous saturday night massacre. is there in your mind, as someone who worked on an obstruction of justice case before s there enough for an obstruction of justice case here? >> there is absolutely for an obstruction of justice case. i would be happy to prosecute that one. putting a case together is like putting together a puzzle. circumstantial evidence is often more persuasive than direct
8:28 pm
testimony. if i have someone coming into the room dripping wet with a wet umbrella, i would be convinced it's raining outside. the same thing happens. we had the indictments before we had the smoking gun tape. that was a dramatic piece of evidence, but it was not es. in here you have had a discussion of the pieces, the firing of comey, the firing of yates, the ask the fbi to drop the case against flin. the pardoning of arpaio sending a message to everyone else, you don't have to cooperate, because i'll save you. i think we have more acts of obstruction. >> natasha, as you have been
8:29 pm
reporting the mueller investigation has that in its purview as well and there's evidence they're moving on that. >> mueller requested thousands of documents from the justice department that momentemorialize firing of james comey. there is a letter that donald trump wrote in new jersey on the weekend before he decided to fire james comey outlining the reasons he wants james comey gone. >> the real reasons he dictated to stephen ill manier and the white house counsel was like -- >> that's going tb a reason why the white house counsel is going to be a very important witness in this. he's going to be subpoenaed by robert mueller shortly. he told trump, we can't use this as a reason. at that point they sent it to the justice department and rosenstein and sessions wrote
8:30 pm
their memos about why they wanted him gone. >> i want to remind people how incriminating the comey testimony is. this is him talking about trump asking him if he could basically ask mike flynn off the hook. take a listen. >> i took it as a direction. it's the president of the united states with me alone saying i hope this. i took it as, this is what he wants me to do. i didn't obey that. but that's the way i took it. >> he pursues the russia investigation of michael flynn and he's fired and here's comey reflecting on why he was fired. >> it's my judgment that i was fired because of russia investigation. i was fire in the some way to change or the endeavor was to change the way the russia investigation was being conducted. that was the big deal. >> if final checkers move there
8:31 pm
is the president said he fired him because of the russia investigation on live television to lester holt, so they agree about that. >> i agree with jill totally. there is enough evidence right now to indict donald trump -- >> i want to be clear about this. if it is the case that mueller cops to the decision obstruction of justice was committed, he's not going indict the president of the united states. >> the key to this whole business to me rests with michael flynn. there is a reason why donald trump did not want comey to be looking -- he wanted comey to let michael flynn go. whatever that reason is is going to be an awfully powerful motive to this. even though motive is not a necessary element to prove an
8:32 pm
obstruction case, if mueller brings that and refers it to congress, the motive is going to be a key case to that charge. >> michael flynn, a lot of people think he's in the hairs of indictment as well. for a number of reasons frgs happy thanks for giving! thanks for giving lien the strength to outrun her brother. thanks for giving victor the energy to be the rowdiest fan. and joseph, the ability to see monsters. when you choose walgreens, you choose to make a difference...
8:33 pm
like how every vitamin and flu shot you get at walgreens helps give life-changing vitamins and vaccines... to children in need around the world and here at home. so, really... happy thanks for giving! walgreens. at the corner of happy and healthy. jimmy's gotten used to his whole yup, he's gone noseblind. odors. he thinks it smells fine, but his mom smells this... luckily for all your hard-to-wash fabrics... ...there's febreze fabric refresher. febreze doesn't just mask, it eliminates odors you've... ...gone noseblind to. and try febreze unstopables for fabric. with up to twice the fresh scent power, you'll want to try it... ...again and again and maybe just one more time. indulge in irresistible freshness. febreze unstopables. breathe happy.
8:34 pm
8:35 pm
i tabut with my back paines, i couldn't sleep and get up in time. then i found aleve pm. aleve pm is the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. i'm back. aleve pm for a better am. how to you take a job and then recuse yourself in if he were to recuse himself before the job, i would have said thanks, but i'm not going to take you. it's extremely unfair, and that's a mild word to the president. >> the president expressing his frustration with jeff sessions. nick was talking about michael flynn. it's easy -- there are so many characters here, but it's easy to forget the first domino in the whole thing. michael flynn has a phone call, several phone calls with the russian prime minster the day
8:36 pm
the obama administration announces the retaliatory sanctions. they lie about it. ultimate will i we find out michael flynn lies to fbi investigators, the number two in the department freaks out and says to the white house twice -- calls them twice, like, your guy is lying to fbi investigators about what he told a russian ambassador. she ends up getting fired. the president looks to protect michael flynn in his interactions with comey. how central do you think that all? s? >> i think michael flynn is the most interesting character because he's protected but because his motivation hasn't been uncovered. i always have the image of him sitting at the russia today dinner with vladimir putin. how does a retired jerng someone like that end up at a table of a russia propaganda machine.
8:37 pm
>> it's a year earlier, so there's a sense he was being cultivated before. jill, protecting flynn is central to the actions the president takes with comey, and then there's a question of sessions. there's an open question of whether he will take further action towards the department of justice, towards rosenstein or mueller to thwart the investigation if it gets closer to him. >> absolutely. he has indicated but i think he has been tamped down by his lawyers who have said, you have to get control of this. it's sort of like what happened on the saturday night massacre. the public reaction was so overwhelming that nixon was forced to reverse himself. that could happen here as well. if i could go back to one thing nick said, which i agree with, but i want to put it in the
8:38 pm
context. when the tame kaem fcame for a decision about indictment versus impeachment, my group thought we should indict is president and thought we had ground for it, but wed leeian saying impeachment is the right method. there is now a ken starr memo saying you could indict a president. >> what's remarkable about this, when you're talking about the collusion case, a lot remains murky about that. a lot are emains murky about what russia did. there might be criminal indictments against russian actors the people that committed the intrusion into the servers. the idea that the collusion case is there in front of us and the idea you could have owe moment where you wake up and robert
8:39 pm
mueller says, we are indicting the president of the united states for obstruction of justice is not implausible. >> this is one op reasons donald trump was so angry when jeff sessions recused himself. he told the "the new york times" i never would have hired him if he was going step down from the investigation. why? >> he also told the russians i got rid of comey and the pressure is off. clearly he's stressing it. >> there's a lot of tools mueller has in his toolbox about why he fired comey and why he was so upset about sessions. >> a will the of people saying firing comey was a mistake and the drip drip drip disclosures were a mistake, but the president is the only guy who knows what he did. you can't behave rationally if you don't know what the underlying factors are. it's possible it's so incriminating you fire comey.
8:40 pm
>> then he came up with a ridiculous statement for his son about the june 9th meeting. another one about kushner. don't know if trump wrote that, but it sure looks like it. seems like he's ignoring the lawyers and he's doing the strategyizing in this. >> he just mentioned kushner. it would also be possible if someone was conspireing in furtherance of that that the president would be indicted for obstruction as well. >> absolutely. he might have to be worried about protecting his son-in-law, his son, as well as himself. we don't know exact will i what he did, but we have the outward man testations of some things that are clear pointers to criminal violations. i think there are things to proceed against him.
8:41 pm
any other person would be indicted on everything we know, but we treat the president differently. i think that's appropriate that he has to have more evidence than a regular person. >> thanks so much for your time. the first charges to come out of the mueller investigation were about the financial on bit. d by everything you've tried-- all those laxatives, daily probiotics, endless fiber-- it could be wearing on you. tell your doctor what you've tried, and how long you've been at it. linzess works differently from laxatives. linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation or chronic constipation. it can help relieve your belly pain and lets you have more frequent and complete bowel movements that are easier to pass. do not give linzess to children less than six and it should not be given to children six to less than eighteen. it may harm them. don't take linzess if you have a bowel blockage.
8:42 pm
get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. the most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe. if it's severe, stop taking linzess and call your doctor right away. other side effects include gas, stomach-area pain and swelling. ask your doctor if 90 days of linzess may be right for you. we create machines that make every experience more intense and real. with intel core processors and geforce gtx graphics so powerful
8:43 pm
they can redefine reality. because the best feature of a gaming machine is the power to make you forget it's there. ( ♪ ) shop our lowest prices ever at dell.com. ( ♪ ) shop our lowest prices ever at dell.com. anyone who calls it a hobby doesn't understand. we know that a person's passion is what drives them. [ clapping ] and that's why every memorial we create is a true reflection of the individual. only a dignity memorial professional can celebrate a life like no other. find out how at sanfranciscodignity.com.
8:44 pm
it wasn't collusion with russia that prompted some of the very first charge florida state rm rp's investigation. it was financial dealings. paul manafort, president trump's deputy rick gates were indicted for laundering millions of dollars from ukraine. mueller was following the money. that's something president trump made clear he does not want mueller to do. >> the president was looking at your finances unroadway litted
8:45 pm
to russia. is that a red line? >> would that be a breach of what his -- >> i would say yes. >> we know there are a ton of questionable dealings in donald trump's past. a hotel in azerbaijan that appears to be a corrupt operation engineered by oilgarches. a talled plan to build a trump tower. trump's sale of a florida mansion nobody wanted to a russian fertilizer king for a whopping $95 million. the trump owned 2013 miss universe pageant. just last week, we learned christopher steel, said an investigator needed to look at the contracts for the hotel deals and land deal that is trump pursued with russian
8:46 pm
nationals. that's just trump himself. ivanka trump and donald trump jr. were almost indicted themselves. still with me, miriam elder. nick actorman, business insider political correspondent josh bertrand. someone who has done after lot of contributing. manafort is one of those people that people were writing about how shady he was for years. he went along not getting indicted until robert mueller came along. if you're the pitt, you got to be worried about that. >> he was under investigation before trump came around. the money trail is always there. it stretches back decades. you could take the list you just
8:47 pm
read of trump and russian involvement and keep going for 20 minutes about properties russians have bought, russian oilgarches. if you go beyond the collusion thing, we'll flip out, we'll fire the special prosecutor, and there's something there they're sensitive about. i think if you're looking now at this investigation and it's clear mueller is looking at people with financial experience and money laundering and your top campaign guy got nabbed it's super worrisome. >> there's a lot of russian oilgarches in the global luxury real estate market around the world, buying lots of properties because it's a useful asset to
8:48 pm
park prept. how much do you think trump is a person selling and they're parking money there. how much do you have a sense that russian oilgarches that are doing that are in contact? >> i think what you said is correct. i think rugs love to buy property to park their cash abroad and to have a place to flee. in you're successful in russia, if you reach a certain level of success, then you have been blessed by the state. does that mean you must participate to get trump elected? not necessarily. it teams to me real estate is a shady business. it's a shady business in new york, baku, moscow, and this is where it call comes together. >> there's always this question of could any -- are trump's
8:49 pm
finances particularly sketchy, or are they just new york real estate practices and if you put real estate workers under a microscope you're going find stuff. >> i think you have to look at the reason why mueller is looking at paul manafort and looking at trump's finances. it's to leverage information. because ultimately it's about russian interference and whether the campaign colluded. as far as financial conflicts arising out of his investigation, i think that's all towards an end game of him trying to get information about the extent of the conspiracy that happened here or not. >> so the idea here is you have indictability offenses, you have leverage. that can be used to discovers what happened between russia and the campaign. >> just about every one of these things relates to russia. trump's soho relates to russia.
8:50 pm
the d.a.'s office dropped the ball on don junior and ivanka for having lied to investors. >> they were caught in e-mails t they're not telling the truth about the vacancy rates. >> it's more than that. the investigators and that completely dropped the ball. they had to make a certain 15% or the deal wouldn't go through under new york state law. i'll bet you anything if you looked at some of those 15% you're going to find a lot of russian names, a lot of russian money that's been parked there. you also had phil felix who is a principal in the bay rock group who wasn't even disclosed in the perspectives for that deal. again, a guy with lots of russian connections. >> there's also the $95 million that went from russia to the president to take a property off his hands that no one wanted to buy. i want to talk about that when we come back. everyone stick around. we'll see you on the flip.
8:51 pm
8:52 pm
8:53 pm
8:54 pm
you don't learn very much from tax returns, let me tell you right now. i will absolutely give my returns, but i'm being audited now for two or three years. so i can't do it until the audit is finished. obviously. you know the only one that cares about my tax returns are the reporters. >> you don't think the american public is concerned about it? >> i don't think so. i won. i mean, i became president. no, i don't think they care at all. >> still here, mary, nick, and nick. so a few things, one is that to go back to this idea of how much
8:55 pm
of this is the nature of the business that trump was in and how much is particular is russia. there is this one, this one notable sale right, he's got this property that's sort of white elephant property in florida that he can't get rid of and sells it for $95 million which a lot of rituals covered, that's a weird sale. viewers think it may or may not be, these sales happen all the time. >> i think after seven years of living and working russian on all sorts of business dealings. finding a clean business deal was like the rare thing. everything is really messy, it's one of the most corrupt countries in the world. so yeah, it's possible that there was something more going on, but it's also possible that he was, you know, parking, parking his money through the trump organization or something like that. >> or that he had -- the purchase of their property had motivations entirely unrelated to donald trump that were sketchy. >> absolutely. >> and there's the fact that there's so much russian and saudi money that's sloshing
8:56 pm
through the system. >> if you're a building in the last 30 years, at some point, probably asking for russian money and at some point, asking for saudi money. if you're a seller of those apartments in new york, you are definitely trying to get russia money because those are the people that have the money to buy these super luxury apartments. so the real estate apartments are swimming in russian money. like real estate in new york. >> right, but then there's an additional thing that complicates that, right? because, you know, we talked about russian money, but this is someone who went through long periods where unlike other realtor developers, he was cut off. >> he declared bankruptcy for so many times, huge amounts of money, a billion dollars, that the banks weren't loaning him money. who do you go? it's either a loan shark in brooklyn or you go to the russians. that's it. they don't have that much money. so the russians do and that's who you go to. the other organized crime group. >> we should say that there is something particular about donald trump's financial
8:57 pm
situation about the multiple bankruptcies, because unlike other real estate developers. he was squeezed off from the traditional sources of capital and real estate obviously the entire game of real estate is that you borrow money, you invest it, you hope to make money and hope to get out. that's basically it. you have a harder time. >> and one of the most interesting things about this home sale to that was the timing of it. happened in 2008 when trump was going through essentially, you know, multiple bankruptcies, no one would loan to him, and this was a huge infusion of cash into his bank account. so, you know, when you look at the circumstances surrounding that sale and then it starts to become label the more questionable. >> can you imagine a world in which there is -- game out the possibility of some kind of indictments related to these offenses that don't relate back to the sort of core question here about russian political events. >> highly likely because we know for certain the president is extraordinary sensitive and he's
8:58 pm
the first president in decades not to release his tax returns. there is something there, there is some ball there. we're not sure what it is. and so if you're asking what kind of interest did the russians have in helping elect him? sure, there's an answer there. but if you're asking what leverage of the russians have over the president that made him and drove him towards the policies elsewhere, the answer might be in his finances. >> that's another great point. >> right. >> and maybe that those two as you're talking about, the degree of sketchiness, maybe there are deals he knows were sketchy that were happening all along. >> this goes back to the smoking gun. i think the russians targeted donald trump a long time ago. they've known him for decades. they've known what entire american public knows what type of person he is. this is a game that the russians play. they collect information and they deploy it. >> so you think that's -- and that's one of the things that is alleged in the steal dossier.
8:59 pm
and that they compiled the compromised material on him. >> i mean, beyond an extra to the dossier, he was going to russia. when you have a big real estate developer arriving in russia in the '90s, you can be certain that the security services were keeping tabs on him. >> the 2013 visit ends up being so important because of the fact that the one really concrete would you like to collude with russia government, the intermediaries there who are also we should note real estate developers. that's a real estate development family, the pageant is held in one of those developments right in moscow. so there's already a bunch of red flags around this particular one. >> to go back to about what mueller is going to do in terms of the russian financials, plus the collusion, i think what you saw with the papadopoulos and the manafort is exactly what he wants to do all along, he wants to tie together at the same time the russian collusion as well as the financial. and so, i think what he is looking to do, at least with trump's financials is to tie it
9:00 pm
into the collusion. i mean, even though a prosecutor doesn't have to act politically, that's where he's going to be headed. >> mary-ann, nick, nick, thanks for being here. this is all in for this evening. we will be back on monday. good night. happy friday. still full? welcome to special edition of the rachel maddow show tonight. a few days after the presidential election in 2016, something really quite unexpected happened. planned parenthood started getting a flood of donations from mike pence. from all over the country. mike pence was donating. the new vice president elect. once it became clear that republicans would soon control the white house and chambers of congress, a lot of americans suddenly felt a strong urge to donate to civil rights reproductive health organizations like the aclu and planned parenthood. and when people started donating to planned parenthood in particular, a good number of them did

33 Views

info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on