the senate that's even been accused of this. >> that has to be a wrap for now. thank you very much. i'll see you at soon eastern, right now it's time for "am joy" with my friend, joy reid. i'm suspecting that because donald trump protected him so much, he knows something really significant. >> i don't think this goes anywhere other than to michael flynn and potentially his son. >> welcome to "am joy." this thanksgiving we got yet another signal that special council robert mueller's investigation into russia's interference in our presidential election continues to pick up steam. nbc news confirming information first reported by the "new york times" that lawyers for trump's former national security adviser, michael flynn, cut ties with trump's attorneys, refusing to share more information about mueller's investigation. typically during an investigation, defense attorneys for separate clients agree to
cooperate with one another to share information so they can anticipate the prosecutor's case and piece together a common strategy to fight back. lawyers for trump and flynn, who along with his son is under investigation for foreign business dealings and his contacts with russian officials had been doing that up until this week. one reason according to the times for the change could than it is unethical for lawyers to work together when one client is cooperating with prosecutors and another is still under investigation. which makes this news a possible sign of trump's worst nightmare, michael flynn cooperating with mueller's investigation, potentially handing over incriminating evidence against his former boss and the trump campaign. joining me is malcolm nance, paul butler also joins us. paul on this question of cooperation, normal izen sent
this tweet out thursday. i negotiated a cooperation deal for a target with mueller's office when he was u.s. attorney. let me tell you, he won't give one to flynn unless he implicates someone up the ladder, kushner, don jr. or big daddy. your thoughts? >> joint defense agreements with agreements when people are subjects of investigation and they want to share information because they think, hey, we're all in this together. except when they're not. so, now flynn has been persuaded by either his attorneys or by spell counsel mueller that he had different interests from president trump. so it could mean he's cooperating with the special council, which means he's singing like the canary to avoid what could be decades of prison time. or it could mean he will fight this.
and in his defense he will implicate donald trump. >> paul, the "new york times" put a caveat in their story saying that -- that some lawyers withdraw from information sharing arrangements as soon as they begin negotiating with prosecutors and such negotiations sometimes fall apart. do you see signs where flynn may is not trying to all the way cooperate or maybe his son trying to save michael flynn jr. what he would have to offer prosecutors? information that would incriminate donald trump or paul manafort? >> michael flynn was the national security adviser. that's a high-level position. he's now got lots of exposure for false statements, for not disclosing that he was an agent of foreign governments at the time he was working for the trump campaign, and then in the white house. he has a lot of incentive to try
to bring the goods against somebody who is higher up on the chain, which means somebody in the oval office. so, it's perfectly right there's not a done deal now. he has a lot of pressure to really deliver somebody high up. again, that means president trump, somebody in the oval office, or somebody in president trump's family. again, obviously mueller is a guy with integrity. he only wants the goods if they're true. the concern is sometimes people who cooperate, when they have a lot of incentive, sometimes they say stuff that's not true to help themselves. >> let's go to malcolm on this. we all know the cast of characters who are involved in the allege russia collusion with the trump campaign. michael flynn. if you go back to -- travel back to when jim comey testified in
front of a congressional committee and released the memo which showed that, in his view, trump was asking him to end the flynn investigation, go easy on michael flynn. we have the stories of trump reaching out to michael flynn saying stay strong. malcolm haviv malcolm, having lived this situation for a year s michael flynn the person who most likely has the answer on whether the trump campaign colluded with russia or is his real problem that he was making money on the side? >> he has four issues that will come down on him. one, taking money from russia while holding a top secret security clearance, not saying anything about it. that could lead him to charges of being an unwitting intelligence asset. two, taking money from the turks in order to extradite illegally in a u.s. resident to turkey
which is kidnapping, federal conspiracy charges. that's bad. three, then there's making that phone call to moscow in december of last year. that is significant because that could implicate mike pence and donald trump as having ordered him do that. he may have lied about it. and finally, he may have been the executive officer of all the dirty tricks campaigns to get the wikileaks information, the information from the russian lawyer, and the information from the podesta leaks and the rest to find hillary clinton's e-mails, which means he's neck deep in all of them. the question is which are the easy ones mueller is going for? i think he's going for the turkey and russia payments, that's documentary. he can get that. finally, it was jay sakalow who dropped a hint about the
security clearance of flynn, saying obama cleared him. so that leads me to believe it's more the moscow phone call and him being an unwitting asset of moscow intelligence. >> let's not forget sally yates the then acting attorney general warned the white house he could be subject to blackmail and it still took them almost two weeks to get rid of him. person number two, jared kushner. sara, we recall going back again that jared kushner was one of the people who urged donald trump to fire director jim comey, fbi director at time. that could be one of the obstruction of justice charges. we have a new piece in "vanity fair" that talks about kushner being worried. december pil despite kushner's efforts to
proje project confidence about robert mueller's probe, he expressed worry about the indictments of paul than for the and rick gates about how far the investigation could go. do you think jared curb shekush should be worried about jared kushner? >> the consequences i'm worried about are that for the united states, a problem of nepotism has become a problem of national security. we know kushner is implicated, we know he lied on clearance forms. he had hundreds of contacts with foreign officials, especially russia over the years, that he did not reveal. he was involved in the firing of comey. he was involved with manafort, the campaign team and the transition. he's been implicated at every level, but of course his father-in-law is the president. this administration used executive power to override protocols that technically should keep people like kushner
in check. he hasn't been. perhaps he's more worried in light of manafort's indictment and pending indictments against flynn, perhaps. the corruption goes deep. i don't think we should be needlessly optimistic about the direction, in this is going to go. >> paul, let's go to manafort. mcclatchy has a new piece out talking about manafort's travel to russia was more extensive than we previously new. his flight records indicate deeper kremlin tines. manafort is already knowingly in legal trouble. would the prosecute verse to get manafort on something to do with collusion or could the corruption of his business practices separate from the campaign be enough to force him to flip on donald trump potentially? >> it's all fear of game. on the one hand we have plenty of evidence that he's got exposure for stuff that has nothing to do with russia or the
trump campaign. we've seen that mueller, he goes in. he wouldn't have problem indicting manafort on all of that stuff in order to get him to cooperate. the subject of this investigation is whether the trump campaign conspired with the russians in order to subvert american democracy. so, if manafort has information about that, that's what is of most interest to special council mueller. >> manafort ran the trump campaign, he brought in late spring, early summer to manage the convention process. at the same time he has these separate ties to russia and ukraine. do you get the sense that manafort, is his exposure that he may have helped to direct russia collusion into the pain or that he is just separately got corruption issues that have to do with tangentially with
russia. >> i think the things we're seeing on the surface and the indictments he got, those are the pressure points of his past misbehavior in the ukraine. he a special skillset to bring these russian-based corruption and dirty tricks operations into campaigns in the ukraine, he was brought into this campaign. the question is was he moscow's man? is this an issue of him being a dirty trickster or him being an actual asset of the kremlin? that's a big difference between -- that's like espionage act sort of stuff there. >> yeah. >> can i make a quick aside for jared kushner that i think we missed on? i read that article with great interest. when he made that statement of do you think they'll get the president, coming from an intelligence perspective, someone who has done a boatload of wiretapping in my time, if i were to hear that sentence, that would immediately indicate to me
that, you know, he has information that he feels he's the crux of that will lead up the chain of command. i would would you make that statement if you didn't already know the answer that you got it? he is flush with dirty contacts, with moscow related to money. i think he's very afraid that he's about to get the manafort treatment. and he's going to. mueller is throwing a circle around foreign capital that may have come from foreign intelligence agencies and influence these people to do things that were conspiracy against the united states. >> we still haven't gotten an answer to the questions we wanted from the white house about whether or not jared kushner has been discussing some of his financial needs when jaunting around the world to saudi arabia and other places. we would love an answer to that. last question to you. you have now seen this probe go international. there was an arrest of one of
putin's favorite olligarchs on tax evasion charges. this arrest took place in france. could the kremlin now become maybe worried about the oligarchs themselves will now be squeezed in terms of hiding money? we know hiding money in real estate including in president trump properties is a thing they do. >> this was always their concern. their guided presence in the campaign. one of their main objectives was to make sure there were no sanctions against russia and the oligarchs could continue unimpeded. it has not stopped them from accomplishing their goals throughout the year. i hope the investigation picks up. i hope things move faster. i don't they wi ney we necessar handle the repercussions. i think it's rough for the oligarchs, it's a lot rougher for the people of the united
states. i'm glad mueller is pressing down, that as malcolm said the net is widening, tightening. but at the same time we are running out of time. i hope they consider that. >> well said. thank you very much. paul butler will be back later in the show. could robert mueller be "time's" person of the year? donald trump claimed he turned down the honor that the magazine was probably going to confer on him. "time" said they never contact the him and said any such thing. trump has an obsession of being on the cover of "time" even creating fake versions of hill on the cover hanging in his property. so who do you think could be on the cover? go to #amjoy and add time person of the year to your tweet. up next, the people versus roy moore. stay with us.
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>> he totally denies it. he says it didn't happen. you know, you have to listen to him also. you're talking about he said 40 years ago this did not happen. so -- let me just tell you, roy moore denies it. that's all i can say. he denies it. by the way, he totally denies it. the women are trump voters. most of them are trump voters. all you can do is you have to do
what you have to do. he totally denies it. >> that was donald trump's answer when asked if electing an accused child molester was better than electing a democrat in next month's senate race in alabama. trump's defense of roy moore is risky, given the president's own history of sexual assault allegations. while it wasn't a rah-rah endorsement it was enough for moore to use in a fund-raising opportunity. writing i appreciate donald trump for defending my honor and my character. jo i will start here with evan. the polling has been all over the place. this is a wbrc strategy research poll dated november 20th before thanksgiving it has roy moore at 47, doug jones at 45. how on earth is a man accused serially of essentially being a child molester still up in any
poll? >> tribalism. it's been an us versus them narrative where we have said as republicans if you don't like a certain piece of news even if it's factual, you can ignore it because it's fake news. news is based upon opinions rather than facts in this type of world. at the same time people are making moral justification saying it's better to have roy moore who will vote the way we want to vote than having dug jones in there. i don't like doug jones' policies, but i think he's far better than roy moore is. at the same time you have this poll from jmc analytics that came out two weeks ago that said 29% of voters are more likely to vote for roy moore because of the allegations. that shows the moral rot in the party, when we defend a man accused of such horrible, disgraceful behavior it makes people have a second look and
say why do we wanted to be a part of the republican party. >> kurt, you have the enforce wloer is not really good at elections or politics, but has the president dances on a string, your old friend steve bannon. this is him talking on his radio show on friday about that race. take a listen. >> i think that's what the president said. this is wis 40 years old, allegations. let the people of banl ma decide. that alabama decide. i think it will be straightforward. i think the president showed huge courage in the face of just widthering criticism. >> the idea that it's courageous for drum whop himself onald trur an accused child molester, that's where the far right of the republican party is now.
how mainstream is that view? >> i think you're seeing it's not that mainstream. there's been a number of republicans in leadership positions who have spoken out against roy moore, they floated the idea they would try to expel him if he won and was seated. so this is a concentrated group of republican people who actually masquerade as republicans even though they're not republicans. they don't stand for nothing. they don't have any moral come puss or values, they are not guided by any issue or perspective, much like the president. they exist to agitate, to distract, disrupt. what bannon is doing is classic, vintage bannon. wherever the establishment is, i don't want to be. i don't want to do anything that aligns me with mitch mcconnell, paul ryan or establishment republicans, so he does the opposite to be contrary of that.
that's what president trump does at times as well. if you think they'll listen to reason, follow common sense, they do the opposite to spite everybody else. >> they don't do that when it comes to things like cutting taxes for corporations, or policies that harm the poor. they're not contrary to the establishment when it comes to things that hurt people of color, women, gay people, they're only against them when it comes to defending a child molester. let's listen to kellyanne con y conway. here she is on fox news on monday talking about the alabama senate race. >> doug jones in alabama, folks, don't be fooled. he'll be a vote against tax cuts. he's weak on crime, weak on borders, strong on raising your taxes, terrible for property owners.
that's why the media are trying to boost him. >> so vote roy moore? >> i'm telling you we want the votes in the senate to get this tax bill through. >> so, yes, vote roy moore. the idea that the guy who prosecuted two of the clanklans who blew up the 16th street baptist church and killed two little kids -- >> there's a special place in hell for mothers who defend accused child molesters, that would be kellyanne conway. i have no words to describe how atrocious and despicable this is. i want to differ with kurt, he sees a knock shows branch as a republican party as a segment. i think that is the republican party. you can't kind of pass them off as some fringe group when as the president of the united states, everybody in the white house, the head of the rnc, the vice
president, the party has already embraced someone who has been sear yrially accused of sexual assault, that's the president, that's paul ryan, that's mitch mcconnell. that's everybody. to make this distinction that somehow there are good republicans on this issue and bad republicans, this is the horror of donald trump which he has infested and deformed an entire national political party. i think they're rotten to the core now. >> kurt, isn't that the case? the bannon wing owns the party now. they have taken over. paul ryan runs behind the president like a fan. they're all in lockstep. how can you make that distinction. >> i don't disagree with that more. i was speaking more directly to the issue of defending a child
sex predator. a lot of people who are republicans and were quick to speak out against that. that's not to say all the other things donald trump has done, while they sat compliantly silent as he has run roughshot over the republican party. i said the republican party died the night he was inaugurated, and others were clapping like a bunch of sales. it disturbs me, it's troubling, it's terrible for the country. on specifically talking about whether you defend roy moore or not, a lot of people have spoken out about that. >> but nobody listened to them. if people or if they were influential within the party would see roy moore's support erode in alabama. the two things i worry about now are, one, we've been accused of having a war on women, this just perpetuates it. and i think there's a lot of bam mra voters
alabama voters who are on the fence, but they see al franken and democrats standing by him, and they stand by roy moore. >> there is absolutely no symmetry between what al franken -- >> no. >> but al franken is not accused of being a child molester. the conflation of trying to put roy moore and al franken in the same sentence -- >> there is no similarity in the accusations, but i'm talking about how people view it. >> people are insane. there's literally nothing that -- >> democrats have not defended al franken. to the contrary, they're all calling -- there's liberal advocacy groups calling for him to resign. there's an investigation pending. i haven't seen nancy pelosi come
out and say al franken is a great guy. >> the idea that al franken should be expelled -- there's symmetry whatsoever, these guys will serve with roy moore if he wins and say nothing and vote with him. it's absurd. i'm sorry. my editorial here. not even close to being the same. i appreciate the discussion. thank you very much. happy thanksgiving, you guys. coming up, trump tiger are raising eyeeyebrows. i'll tell you why next. ♪ all you smart holiday shoppers will be glad to know buick has great deals planned for you this black friday. or, if you prefer, crimson red tintcoat friday. or quicksilver metallic friday?
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it's almost been a year since donald trump was sworn in as president. he continues to flirt with violating the emolument s claus. why that's a problem on more "am joy" after the break. it was never enough. i wasn't sure i was going to be able to continue singing. i saw my dentist. he suggested biotene. it feels refreshing. my mouth felt more lubricated. i use biotene rinse twice a day and then i use the spray throughout the day.
>> i love golf. if you were in the white house, i don't think i would see doral again. i don't think i'd see many of the places i have. i just want to stay in the white house and work my ass off, make great deals. >> so much for that pledge. since taking office donald trump has spent at least 80 days at his golf properties. friday he tweeted after turkey call i will be heading over to trump national golf club, jupiter, to play golf quickly with tiger woods and dustin johnson. this is not the first time trump teamed up with tiger woods. he helped to design a golf course at a trump branded property in dubai.
joining me now is david k. johnston author of "it's even worse than you think." and richard painter, ethics lawyer for george w. bush. the idea that the president of the united states and golf phenom tiger woods would be designing golf courses together and then promoting playing golf with tiger woods, how flagrant do these violations of the emoluments clause have to be before somebody in washington has to notice? >> the most serious allegations of -- don't involve golf courses, they involve the financing he's getting from foreign governments, foreign government-owned banks, sovereign wealth funds, much undisclosed. he may be in debt for millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars to foreign nationals, some of whom may be connected to foreign governments, none of
this is disclosed because the congress doesn't insist it be disclosed. there's sheer hypocrisy here. the golfing and all of that is symb symbolic. here is a man who criticize the president obama for playing a few rounds of golf now and then, since this president started, he has been doing nothing but golfing on his own courses, trying to promote his businesses and his sons flying all over the world promoting his businesses to foreign nationals and including foreign governments. this has got to stop but it won't stop until congress takes seriously their oversight duties. they are not doing it because they also are hypocritical. they want to cover for themselves and cover for the president. >> the united states goes around the world lecturing about democracy and how to do it. if you had a country in which you had resorts named after the leader of that country, golf course named after the leader of that country, and professional golf associations with playing
on the links, and his name was plastered all over the place you go, and foreign governments could come and stay at his hotels, swipe cards and pay him money, would we consider that country a typical western democracy or questioning whether or not it is an open cleptocracy? >> richard is right. congress has a duty here to act to reform the laws that allow trump to not fully disclose what's going on with his financing. the decades of money launtd der, his reliance on money from foreign government is, and the lawlessness of this administration you see all the time. you just had kellyanne conway i
violating the hatch act doing that. donald ran because he believes of course he should be president, he's superior to the rest of us, he should be in charge of the whole world as he told prime minister turnbull. once in office there are no moral boundaries to this man. he will do everything he can to deepen his family's pockets, even when it involves improper relationship s for a president with foreign banks, foreign individuals. >> the thing that's happening with trump are two pieces. on the one hand it feels like his presidency is so toxing it toxic that it's tanking his brand, but then again he has mar-a-lago and new york. the trump hotel soho in new
york, his name will come off that hotel. forbes, has dropped donald trump down on its list of richest americans. his nest worth is 3.1 billion down from 3.7 billion. he drops to 248 from number 156. we know it's important for trump to be on that list. part of the reason for that is because a lot of his properties are struggling. the golf courses in new york are struggling. his golf courses in a lot of places are struggling. a lot of his hotels are struggling. there was a project in mississippi they would open, a lower-scale hotel that is being scuttled. the one property making a lot of money is the hotel in d.c. the former old post office building. it's filled with lobbyists and foreign government officials who are paying to stay there. how can that be legal?
>> it's illegal under the cones tug constitution. that's why he's been sued in three different lawsuits and in lee different courts. the big money is the financing. you may well see foreign governments or foreign sovereign wealth funds bail out some of those projects that are not doing well in order to ingratiate themselves with the president. that's what the founders intended to prohibit. i get back to congress. they have an oversight duty. they are not doing anything. we have to look hard at congress in 2018. they're a bunch of hypocrites. you can see the way they're pushing this sexual harassment thing, going after conyers. and who is calling kellyanne conway up to the house saying who are the name of those guys who are harassing her that she claimed in 2016? they don't want to investigate that. they're hypocrites, covering for themselves. i've been a republican for 30
years but i won't support people who will cover for a president who is violating the constitution and who applies a double standard to their own members of congress. >> you know, david, there's a lack of fear. donald trump doesn't fear congress. they're not doing anything about it. they have no interest in this issue even though it's plain as the nose on your face, you can reez it read it in the constitution clause, the emoluments clause. i had friends calling me up about a 4$400 million mega yach that pulled up, there was speculation on whether the russian oligarch who owned that yacht was staying at mar-a-lago. i wonder if in your view, knowing donald trump as long as you have, does he have fear that there could be chickens that come home to roost from all of this, what appears to be him profiting openly off the presidency and con sorting with russian oligarchs while under investigation for possible collusion with russia? >> donald would have some fear about this, but he's been
masterful in pushing away law enfofe enfor enforcement. he outdid four grand jury investigations, committed income tax fraud, had two civil trials over it that he lost, he admitted to sales tax fraud, he was found to be engaged in a conspiracy to cheap workers out of their money. he's been successful on running out the clock in law enforcement. his friend here are weak disclosure laws. we need to thoroughly revamp our campaign finance and personal disclosure laws. trump has not had to make an honest accounting of what he's doing. when "forbes" magazine tells you he's worth 3.1 billion, even trump doesn't claim that. the statement he signed is 1.4 billion, if you take all the 50 million of that and double them, you don't get to 2 billion. i think those numbers are highly inflated. he has lots of cash flow not a lot of unencumbered assets. i hope mueller gets us a proper
net worth statement on donald trump, because i think it will shock people when they find out how deeply he's involved in foreign money. >> one thing trump's election has shown, a lot of us assume showing tax returns as president was a law, it's not, it's just tradition. maybe that's something the congress should look into. thank you both. up next, trump uses the tragedy in egypt to double down on his calls for a wall and a muslim ban. up next, more "am joy." ry town,. ry town,. small businesses show their love to you. with some friendly advice, a genuine smile and a warm welcome they make your town... well, your town. that's why american express is proud to be the founding partner of small business saturday. a day where you get to return that love, because shopping small makes a big difference. so, today get up, get out, and shop small.
are sometimes the biggest. while egypt was reeling from the mosque attack, donald trump was using the incident to advance two of the most radical ideas on his agenda tweeting we'll be calling the president of egypt in a short while to discuss the tragic terrorist attack. with so much loss of life we have to get smarter and tougher than ever before. we need the wall. we need the ban. god bless the people of egypt. what on earth -- what could be the thread, if you can
extrapolate for us and even guess when what happened in egypt and building a wall and banning muslims from -- and banning muslims from the united states? >> there's absolutely no trump confused. i mean, it's sad, but it's not surprising that our president, after the worst attack in egyptian modern history, would waste no time to stoke anti-muslim sentiment, stoke islam phobia. trump doesn't understand that muslims are terrorism's greatest victims. we are murdered and slaughtered by isis on a daily basis and for years. it's clear that trump not only doesn't stand that, but he doesn't get that nobody hates isis more than muslims. >> donald trump doesn't seem to have learned whenever he weighs in on anything to do with his muslim ban, it actually tanks his chances in court of getting it to stand up, because it makes it clear that he just wants to ban muslims from the united
states. why does he not seem to get that? >> he's already building a wall and banning folks in a similar poll po -- symbolic way. what's not legal is to exclude people on the basis of their faith, which is why the lawyers keep saying in their pleadings, it's not a ban, it's not a ban. as you note, these tweets make it clear the president's intent is to exclude muslims from entering the united states. and as several courts have made clear, that's unconstitutional. his tweets make it transparent. there's smoking gun evidence of his discriminatory intent. >> just as a political matter, there was a time when particularly arab muslims were very much a swing community,
particularly in florida. this was a community that some leaned republican and some leaned democrat. it was sort of up for grabs. donald trump has seemed to go out of his way to be just sort of extravagant in his disdain for the muslim community. did it surprise you that he paired that with what he was i guess portraying as sympathy for the people of egypt? >> it didn't surprise me at all. what is particularly sad about donald trump's tweets is it's taking away attention and focus from the attack in egypt. the attack was so heinous and violent. it happened against a branch of islam, t islam. they are the most peaceful and loving. it's a mystical sect of islam. their religion is focused on love and poetry. if you know any of the works of
the great poet rumi, you'll know exactly who the suffis are. i don't know how a racist ban and a dumb wall is going to help fight isis in the middle east. >> i think people don't zero in enough on the fact that part of what isis does, a lot of what they do is accuse other muslims of not being in their view the right kind of muslim and attacking them all over the world. >> exactly. we are literally their greatest victims. 90% of terrorism's victims are muslim. it also goes to show we're not a monolith. we're not all the same. there's 1.6 billion muslims in the world and there's so many varying sects. just like in christianity and other religions, there's a very extreme sect. really a lot of muslims don't even consider isis to be a part of islam. muslims are some of their greatest victims. how is a wall with mexico going
to help fight isis? and egypt is not even on trump's racist, dumb plan to have this travel ban that's never going to work. >> just the same way that christians disown people who claim to be christian but who are extremists. the kkk claims they're christians. paul, i wonder if you could anticipate for us -- there will be more lawsuits over the muslim ban. i presume there will be lawsuits over donald trump's idea to build a wall. could his tweets be used by the plaintiffs in cases like that? >> yeah. they already have. we've seen judges including the judge in hawaii credit his tweets. you know, the difficult thing about bringing these cases is you have to prove there's some intent to discriminate against people on the basis of their religion. again, as much as the lawyers try to fix it up, the tweets are transparent. it's clear that what their
president wants to do is to ban muslims, period. again, that is unconstitutional. >> yeah. on the wall, one more point to you on this. you know, it does seem that donald trump is just using this transparently because he knows his base wants those two things equally. they want their wall and they want this muslim ban. that was the driver of their support for him. is there any evidence in your view that people connected to isis are streaming over the southern border, i guess, going to mexico as a way to get into the united states? >> no. it doesn't make any sense. i really don't think we should take attention away from the fact that it's not the west against isis. it's all of us against isis. we must all be united. it's not muslims against isis. it's all of us. >> amen. well said. thank you both very much. keep it right here. loe. kelp is on the way!
the haitian people deserve better. that's what i intend to give them. i will give them better. whether you vote for me or you don't vote for me, i really want to be your greatest champion and i will be your champion whether you vote for me or not. >> this week donald trump had a very different message for haitian victims of the effort quake in 2010. get out.
60,000 haitians who had been working in the united states since they were displaced by the earthquake now face deportation after the trump administration announced it would be revoking the temporary protected status extended by president obama almost eight years ago. a deadline was set of july 2019 for the haitians in the program to return to haiti. although the unstability in the area had previously led obama to extend the protected status. it leaves other immigrants living under an offer of temporary protection in the u.s., wondering if they could be next. joining me jacqueline charles.
thank you all for being here. jackie, i'm going to go to you on this first. the acting secretary for homeland security elaine duke said this in addition to her previous said. she said significant steps have been taken to improve the stability and quality of life for haitian citizens. haiti is able to safely receive traditional levels of return citizens. based on your reporting, is that true? >> no, it is not true. they have yet to provide us the matrix on which they made this decision. yes, haiti just elected a new president. yes, the united nations pulled out its military force, but they are still present. they have a smaller mission. even they consider haiti to still be problematic in the sense that it remains under chapter 7. if the united nations believes that haiti still requires a loot -- lot of assistance.
>> we know that as of june there was a story in the "new york times" talking about the cholera epidemic that was brought to haiti by the u.n. workers. nearly a million have been sickened since cholera was introduced into haiti in 2010. there have been other issues obviously that the island nation has continued to face. you've been back and forth to haiti several times over the past year. in your view, is haiti ready to absorb 60,000 people being expelled from the united states? >> absolutely not. i've been back eight times this year alone. i was just there this past weekend. haiti is not ready. there's a shortage of housing, there are no jobs. you are talking about people who are contributing to society, who are paying taxes. don't forget there's 27,000 children also not factored into that 60,000.
these children are u.s. citizens. they were born here. over half of these 30,000 of them own homes. they are paying mortgages. it's a failure by the administration. the administration has been anti-immigration from the start. i get it, it's temporary but there are steps that need to be taken in order to stabilize haiti for these people to get the opportunity to come back to the country. it's absolutely not ready. >> you've been fighting for tps. you fought for it every day since the 2010 earthquake. you've been fighting for haitian citizens in miami and haitian americans for such a long time. this was hard won, tps. how difficult was it to even get this to happen and how devastating will it be for the community to lose it? >> it took a long time, many years of organizing locally, state-wide and nationally. and it was only after the earthquake which killed over
250,000 people and quasi destroyed haiti's infrastructure that then president obama did approve a temporary protected status. it also took bipartisan support and organizing with tens and hundreds of organizations nationwide. so what it means to the thousands of families is that they will probably, if nothing is done, if congress doesn't act, to pack their bags. it is a very difficult thing to ask them to do. how do you ask parents to separate from their children, especially when we know that haiti is not ready. because i led a fact finding mission to haiti in august from augu -- i went to where the dominicans have been living in squalor since 2014.
the haitian government has not been able to offer them any support. this decision has thrown thousands of families in a high level of anxiety and a state of panic. >> patrick, haiti is one of self-countries that are under the protection of tps. we just put up the graphic there. el salvador is the largest number of rerecipients. this is a relatively small number of people in a country of 322 million people. the idea that's there some urgency to kicking these people out given the state of can you wants like ha-- can you ration l rationalize any reason why the administration would want to kick them out?.
>> i was one part of the obama administration. she will tell you that we were absolutely scrupulous about making certain that the white house did not impose politics on a decision that needed to be governed by the secretary of homeland security. here, we have direct and clear evidence that the chief of staff in the white house interfered with the tps decision and that more likely than not it's been determined by ideology instead of facts on the ground. i was in haiti a few short months ago and like your other guests observed that the country is not yet prepared particularly following the cholera outbreak.
the u.s. has a long and complicated history with haiti. this decision shouldn't be seen outside of the context of that history. the u.s. is implicated in a lot of the challenges that yet persist on that island nation and needs to be part of solutions going forward, which is why we have to turn to congress and the senate now to try to undo this mess that the trump administration has created. >> let's go back and talk about the origins of this decision. we know that john kelly who's now the chief of staff in the white house has been very adamantly against things like da daca. is there any evidence this is a policy that came from when he was leading it, or is this the interim sort of lead in trying to undo tps for haitians? >> we have to remember before the decision was taken earlier this year to only extend tps for six months, kelly visited haiti. i spoke with him when he came
back and i asked him what was the conversation with the haitian president. he said he basically told him to prepare to bring your people back. and the president laid out a series of arguments but most of all said they were preparing to help haitians get their documents at the time. i asked kelly, have you made up your mind what you're going to do in the fall? he said no, but this was sort of the final reprieve they were going to give haitians. there was a story earlier this year that the associated press broke about how the administration was asking for the criminal histories of haitians in trying to determine the tps decision. there was also a recommendation prior to the announcement that haitians should no longer receive tps. when you look at this and build up to this moment, you say, you know what, how much thought really went into this decision. i know that elaine duke spent a lot of time talking to a lot of
people. she spoke to the haitian ambassador to the u.s. on several occasions as well as the foreign minister. i felt that she really wanted to arrive at a decision, possibly an extension. but an extension with a final deadline, that's not what people were actually expecting given the current reality of haiti today. >> did you have any contact from the administration before this decision was made? >> not at puall. we've tried time and time again to get a meeting even with acting secretary elaine duke or anyone from the trump administration. even those who organized that little haiti meeting, then trump claimed he wanted to be haiti's best champion. even those who organized those meetings have not been able to secure a meeting with anyone from the administration. so we are left to believe that
this decision was made based on politics and ideology rather than hard facts on the ground. >> obviously there is a congressional delegation from south florida. it is the largest haitian population in the united states. have there been any responses from members of congress from south florida to this decision? >> every member of congress from south florida even the republicans from the gone on down to senator marco rubio are all in support of the extension of tps. we're at a critical point right now that it doesn't seem this decision is going to be reversed. i think we ought to focus on
what we need to do from this point on forward. there's a couple things we need to focus on. there's a house bill out of new york and a similar bill. i'm asking the president of the united states, if you're listening, call speaker ryan, call senator mitch mcconnell. bring these bills to the floor for a vote. this is a critical, critical situation. and also haiti is still waiting for the hospital that was promised after the earthquake to be built. we need to focus on that. this's also the phoenix project to bring electricity to the island that was blocked by secretary clinton and the obama administration. >> what can viewers do who are concerned about the situation?
>> first of all, i would ask that people support the work of incredible committed advocates. if you're part of move-on, if you're a part of indivisible, make certain this is -- this goes far beyond florida. senator feinstein is also supporting that legislation from senator van holland. and the american chamber of commerce and the building association also recognize the economic disaster that would be hear in the u.s. and in haiti if these immigrants are returned. let's support these senate bills. let's continue to organize, lift up advocacy on this issue and demand that the u.s. congress address this issue.
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we're using what's called the byrd rule in the senate so we only need 50 votes in the senate instead of 60. the proposals could only have certain economic impact. one of the ways to game the system is to make things expire. obamacare was a gimmick to get through these rules in the senate. >> trump is expected to meet with senate republicans on tuesday to sell them on a conservative tax cut plan that went through the house last week. there are a couple of key differences between the house plan and the senate plan. the senate bill would repeal the individual mandate in the affordable care act. one major factor is the same. major permanent tax cuts for corporations that would add trillions of dollars of the deficit over the next ten years, paid for by tax hikes on americans who aren't rich.
the tax policy center has weighed in on the senate version of the plan. this is the senate finance committee's plan. some taxpayers would pay more in taxes under the proposal in 2019 and 2025. about 9% in 2019 and 12% in 2025. in the middle income, 28% will receive a tax cut and 66% would get a tax increase. i'm wondering what you're hearing about the politics of raising taxes on about 1 in 10 taxpayers a year before the presidential election. >> they seem to think two things. first of all, when you get to 2027, there's a lot of people with tax increases. thaw're s
they're saying those will go away. it won't be permanent. overall the republicans seem to think the argument that most people will get a tax decrease will work even if you have millions who will get a tax increase. the tax increases are spread out a lot. the target of the tax increases is particularly people in california, new york, new jersey because of getting rid of the state and local income taxes. those people don't vote for republicans already. part of the thing going on here is there are some tax increases targeted to people that don't vote for republicans. >> i've talked with friends in georgia and she pointed out to me that georgians are going to pay more. the other target for this is people with very low income. this is a "new york times"
article. if the senate bill becomes law, americans earning $30,000 a year or below would pay higher taxes beginning in 2021. the projected increase stems from the repeal of the aca mandate. how does the republican party sell the idea of actually raising taxes on the lowest income americans? >> a lot of the things is i don't think a lot of the american public is concerned about 2027, 2025. they're concerned about 2018 and 2019. what they do see is the doubling of the standard deduction. 69% of americans don't itemize deductions on their tax returns. you're getting a large swath of americans who are going to get what may seem to be instant tax relief. but the politics of this are they won't feel that until 2019. that will be after the 2018 midterms. a lot of things can happen there. it's -- perry's very spot on when he talks about the states
that are going to get hit the hardest on the deductions and losing the state and income tax and property tax deductions on their states. at the end of the day, republicans can't make the mistake of mitt romney of saying 47% of americans don't pay federal income taxes. but about everyone in american, whether you're minimum wage or not is paying 39% taxes on every dollar they make. it's fees, local taxes, local assessments. so taxes are a concern to everyone. it's just a matter of what you identify politically is who calls them. the republicans now with donald trump, they've got 2018 coming. if they don't show a bill passed with republican majority in the house and republican majority in the senate, regardless of the blocking of the democrats, they'll have hell to pay at the ballot box in 2018. >> it's interesting.
republicans are under a lot of pressure their donors who are ordering them to pass something that looks like a tax cut for the rich. they have to try to do it. but i'm wondering if even the democrats would be able to message against a tax increase on middle class people to pay for permanent tax cuts for corporations and the rich. that sounds simple enough for even democrats to be able to message against. >> it does. he can't even defend the policy here. what are the republicans saying here? it aims at poor people so it's a good thing to do. republicans define poor people as anybody who's not in the 1% of americans. let's get past the stark raving hypocrisy of the fact that this tax bill would add trillions of dollars to the deficit, the same party when president obama was managing the state shut down the
government over anything that hinted at the deficit. how many times have they tried to sell us on this sugar coated tax cut plan which was disastrous for the economy that ended up basically unraveling and bringing us to the brink? we saw it in the bush administration. we see it again now. i don't think there's any credibility, joy. that's why the polling around this tax cut plan, only about 25-26% of americans support it. nearly 62-63% are against it. it is deeply unpopular. >> i think that's an important point, because you see in the polling that it's gotten through to the majority of people at least in these polls that the tax cut would be at their expense and help the rich. the other thing i think is weird is mulvaney. he is a weird messenger on this. he doesn't seem embarrassed about saying we're going to hike taxes on poor people and going after something that used to be sacred, social security disability. this is a quote from a political profile of mulvaney in
september. he says this is my idea of how to reform social security. no, the president replied. i told people we wouldn't do that. here are medicaid reforms. no, i'm not doing that. then he goes to disability insurance. he considers it to be welfare. well, here's a map of the people who participate in security disability insurance. it's heavily in the south. social security disability insurance, i think two-thirds of the recipients are older white americans, trump voters. does the republican party have a problem now they they're openly cutting medicaid and social security disability? >> they have two problems. one that's being paid for not only by raising taxes eventually on those middle class people. but they're going to have to cut services across the board.
this is going to exert a pressure on spending that mostly benefits middle and lower income mornings. now, beyond that, i think you have the real issue that for republicans -- and this is where democrats need to remember. they need to peel off republican votes. my suggestion to them, free advice is what you pay for it, is to focus on the deficit. you have republicans out there, jeff flake and bob corker who say they do not want to grow the debt and the deficit. this is a deficit buster. any analysis, whether it's the tax policy center, whether it's the committee for a responsible federal budget, anyone that you look at, we're going to be adding trillions of the debt. if those republicans, some of whom don't have to stand for election, want to go out as principled republicans and want to be true to their values, they
shouldn't be spoerltiupporting . >> does this bill either the senate version or the house version ultimately pass and become law? >> it will hit conference committee and it will pass because of the politics behind it beating the policy and republicans are going to need to show a victory for 2018 midterms. it will pass. >> do you think that raising people's taxes will ultimately hurt them on the politics? >> i think cutting corporation taxes will win the day. the republicans will be the people who cut taxes and the democrats will be the people who want to raise taxes. >> that's the old way politics used to work. will this pass and will republicans be glad it passed? >> i it will pass because paul ryan, mcmcconnell and the donors really want it to pass. i don't think it's good politics in part because you're going to have a lot of these members in swing district where is this bill raises -- if you're in an
upper income district, this might raise taxes in those areas. >> does it pass and will republicans regret it? >> i am thankful for the founde founders, because i think you see a lot of political posturing coming on. but when it comes time to cast the vote, no way in held three republicans of conscience are going to let this lemon pass. >> does it pass and do republicans regret it? >> not this. something will pass and they'll declare victory over it and it won't help them in 2018 because as you say, even democrats can figure out a way to run against this. repealing the estate tax, what, so ivanka doesn't have to worry about ever paying a dime of
inheritance tax. come on. >> we're going to keep this panel around. coming up, the not so secret plot to destroy obamacare. first, american pie wars. >> april is just upset because the only thing she knows how to cook and serve is the fake news. she keeps questioning me that she wants proof of sarah huckabee's pie. we want proof she's really a journalist. she ain't no more a journalist than -- we ain't really heard of her until this administration. she's just trying to be relevant. ( ♪ )
april is just upset because the only thing she knows how to cook and serve is the very fake news. >> that's right. >> she keeps questioning me that she wants proof of sarah huckabee's pie. we want proof she's really a journalist. she anti we ain't really never heard of her until this administration. she's just trying to be relevant. >> okay. so thanksgiving is a time for
family, football, embarrassing family members that you'd want to forget that you invited to the party. and of course, food. including the newfangled modern day tradition of the food selfie. here's the spread at my auntie's house. sarah huckabee sanders decided to post her own food selfie. here it is. the pic generated some skepticism. even april ryan got in on the shade, tweeting show it to us on a table. that sparked a back and forth that ended with huckabee sapdnds offering to bake april a pie. april tweeted thanks, be you don't like the press, i won't be
eating that. the clear moral here is when you spend every day lying to the press and the american people on be off of the president, after a while people don't believe you not even regarding the authenticity of the holiday pie. to our friends, april ryan happens to be a veteran and respected journalist who would never turn herself into a vaudeville act for politics. but thanks for playing, ladies. up next, republicans play p ebenez ebenezer scrooge with children's health care. "you don't have to pick me up." at lincoln financial, we get there are some responsibilities of love you gotta do on your own. and some you shouldn't have to shoulder alone. like being able to retire more confidently, no matter what comes your way. lincoln can help, with income that lasts every year of your retirement, guaranteed. see how at lincolnfinancial.com.
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obamacare is finished. it's dead. it's gone. it's no longer. you shouldn't even mention it. it's gone. there is no such thing as obamacare anymore. it is -- and i said this years ago. it's a concept that couldn't have worked. >> despite donald trump's constant claims that obamacare is dead, it's actually alive and well. another popular program the children's health insurance program known as chip is on the brink of collapse, putting close to 9 million low income children and women at risk of losing their health care if congress doesn't act to renew it. we know that florida has a large abundance of people who are on chip. in a state like that, can the
members of congress from florida afford not to push to renew chip? >> it's an excellent question. florida and many other states would be decimated. i think it leads to the question is it any surprise that the party that is pro pay for play, pro putin and now with roy moore, propedophilia. the fact that they're anti-children, is that any surprise? i don't think it is. this chip scenario where you mentioned 9 million children without health insurance. i think if you take a step back, one has to ask themselves -- and i think the american people should ask themselves the broader question. what has the republican party in the last ten years done to help the american people? what have they done? this is not a political party. this is a domestic terror group. what i think the american people should consider when they ask themselves that question with a party that has done nothing to help the american people is to
vote them out and consider possibly locking them up. >> i know you're not a fan of the affordable care act, but can the party really get away with the idea of not renewing this program? it's 9 million kids. >> i would predict to you the party or the politicians will find a way to make this palatable and affordable and they already have addressed it in the house. it's pretty tough to leave 9 million children behind. and that won't happen. at the end of the day, we're still talking about the affordable care act. i understand why donald trump is taking zero ownership of it. that's good politics. and from his stand point, that's where he'll stay. i predict that children matter no matter what side of the aisle you're on. you can make it as political as you care to. for eight years we had president obama. we've now got president trump. that program will stay safe and
end up being funded. where they'll find the money to replace, that's a whole other question. the collapse of the rates and t the increases are now coming home in 2017. >> we know that the individual market is having some issues. they could just fix it, but they have chosen not to do that. just looking at the statistics on children's health care. 370,000 pregnant women receive care yearly. chip and medicaid brings uninsured kids rates down to just 5%. the chicago tribune reports that states are already preparing to shut down the program. it hasn't been renewed. they're dragging their feet on doing it. what is the delay? what is going on? why hasn't this been renewed? >> basically the leaders in the
party have said they'll get to it later. they want to get to this after tax reform. i'm not totally sure why. in terms of the politics, this seems like a mistake to me. one thing you see this year is trump's numbers were not really killed as much by the russia investigation. what has really dropped trump in the polls were those months and months when they were pushing medicaid cuts. the public does not support that. chip is basically like the children version of medicaid. it's the same kind of program. again, this doesn't make any political strategy point to me. there's a debate about whether there should be offsets for this chip money. even then, republicans are going to have to fund this program because it's very popular. i'm not sure why they don't do it already. >> it doesn't really make sense.
just to show more statistics, this is the uninsured rate among nonelderly adults and children from 1997 through 2016. you can see it goes down, down, down, down. the affordable care act and particularly chip has helped to really drop those uninsured rates. it's hard to argue with the stats. these programs have actually lowered the rate of uninsured in the country. i don't understand the politics of insisting on getting rid of it or at least i'm not rushing to do it may be first before you do a tax bill that's already unpopular. >> right. i think this is a failure not only of the democrats but the so-called moderate republicans. if i were the democrats i would be approached people like susan collins, and say why are you voting for a senate tax bill that's going to give billions to
the wealthy while we have not alleviated this problem. same issue with daca. i think the democrats and moderate lps nerepublicans need step up to the plate and make this a condition of the approval of some of the things republicans want. as long as they're meek and mild, republicans are going to ignore this. i would suggest that republicans and democrats who actually think this is a good idea, insuring poor kids, get together and start putting down some demands. >> any plans that you know of for the democrats to start advertising on this, specifically against or to push people to vote renewal of chip? >> i agree with jennifer. i think the democrats are clearly on the right side of the issue. in terms of how they're executing and implementing the politics it begs t s ths the qu
the republican party during the obama era shut down the government. why don't some of the democrats working with the moderate republicans be willing to shut down the document to give health insurance to 9 mill children? excellent question. >> we're actually out of time in this break. thank you all. and up next, levar burton or levar ball. how's it going? hi! okay, so you've got two friends here. yes. this is the j.d. power award for dependability. now i want you to give it to the friend that you think is most dependable. ohhhh. ughh. wow. that's just not fair. does she have to? she doesn't have to! oh, i don't? no, but it's a tough choice, isn't it? yes. well luckily, chevy makes it a little easier. cause it's the only brand to earn j.d. power dependability awards for cars, trucks and suvs - two years in a row. that's amazing. chevy's a name you can trust!
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i'm lavar burton. you are watching one of the finest minds in the political arena today. you are watching a.m. joy with joy reid. >> that was lavar burton, beloved star of roots. this is levar ball, the man donald trump went on a twitter rampage against this week after ball failed to show enough gratitude to the dear leader following his son and two other college basketball players returned home from china following an allegation of shoplifting. apparently trump supporters can't tell the difference. trump supporters have been attacking lavar burton on twitter.
joining me now to discuss are pam oliver, fox nfl senior correspondent and jamal smith. jamil, can you guess why it is that people think that lavar ball and lavar burton are the same person. let's get to the issue at hand. donald trump, this week, i will confess, i had no idea who lavar ball was before this week. now that the three basketball players are out of china, lavar ball, the father of liang el low is unaccepting for what i did for his son. i should have left them in jail. your thoughts on the idea that the president of the united states said he should have left them rotting in jail because their dad didn't thank them enough. >> for generations now, black people have been told they are
not grateful enough to have what they have in this country or they don't show enough appreciation for all the gifts that have been bestowed upon us. i think you have the president here perhaps experiencing such pain that he's actually helping black mennes cape prison. you can't help but lash out, and say that, hey, these young black men aren't being thankful enough, neither is their loud mouth father. and so, we're going to have another round of let's talk about the prominent black person so we can gin up our base. >> donald trump seems to have a particular fixation with black athletes, whether it's the nfl players who are kneeling. this was his latest set of tweets. it wasn't the white house, father lavar on the ground. it was me. too bad, lavar ball's the poor
man's version of -- this fixation that donald trump has with black athletes, do people note that, that it is athletes he seems obsessed with? >> yes, i think people do notice that we're just talking about a president who's obsessed. who spends so much time focused on athletes, and the most convenient um has been directed at nfl players, of course, 70% of the nfl are black people, black men. so -- and of those, at the stadiums i've been to, only a couch el of white guys are taking part in this whole protest and the rest are african-american players, when president trump says something like they or them, what is he referring to. what is he -- what's actually his intent. i don't know what's in the man's heart, i know he can choose his
words carefully, more carefully, he can definitely get off twitter, try to do something respectful. act like a president and stop with the silliness. >> yeah. >> the other thing, i think beyond just donald trump is, you know, this week, there was a cnn interview with lavar ball where chris cuomo seemed to have a difficult interview. >> he helped, if he helped, i would say thank you opinion. >> he says he spoke to the president of china, and that was related to you. in a lot of ways. you were told he helped. >> anybody who speaks to the president, i should thank anybody who speaks to the president. you. >> won't say thank you. >> hey, thanks. your son said thank you, the other guy said thank you. thanks for helping me. >> i'm not the other guys, though, i'm doing something else. >> i mean, lavar ball has been called the black donald trump and he's on knox jous to people. am i the only one who thought,
why is chris cuomo badgering him to say thank you to donald trump. in the united states, we are not required to say thank you to the president. >> when i saw that moment, i thought to myself, what exactly have we proven about what donald trump did to help set those young men free. they were never in jail, they were in a hotel, they were sequestered and released, i would argue that probably ucla, a university that has more pull with china than this president, probably did a lot more to get those kids out than anything the president did. >> we have no proof that the president either spoke to ping or that had any influence if he did. i don't think this is the time to start believing what donald trump says. >> even if he did, it's not north korea, everyone doesn't have to thank their leader. >> donald trump also went after marshawn lynch of the oakland raiders, attacking him for one of these anthem protests, in
your reporting, is donald trump having an impact on the nfl and whether it will decide to impose an nba style rule to try to force these players to stand for the anthem. >> i think this will divide the nfl in a lot of ways, some owners see it for what it should be. it's freedom of speech movement that's happening over here, and some owners will see it another way, it's disrespectful. they buy into the trump rhetoric so much, they can't see the forest through the trees. i think there's going to be some sort of split and maybe significant. >> pam oliver, jamil smith, thank you both. more a.m. joy after the break. the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle, i actually called usaa before we called the police. usaa was there hands-on very quick very prompt. i feel like we're being handled as people
for one company in my former hometown of denver, colorado, aspen inc. coffee chain has cleaned off graffiti and bracing for protests after someone at the shop decided to put up a sign that inc. has been happily gentry phiing five points since 2014. the company got dragged on social media and has since abolgsized. we all know again trgentrificatn
issue. today is small business saturday, get out there and do it. tomorrow's a.m. joy, santa claus is coming to town. santa will be here beard and all. up next, alex witt has the latest, while i see who should be "time's" person of the year. >> that's a good one. and go shopping, because it's small business saturday. >> santa, santa. >> let alone everything we have the next couple hours. >> thank you so much, we'll see you tomorrow. very good day to all of you. it's high noon here in the east. here's what's lapping, "time" waits for no man. the president's claim that he turned down a possible offer for person of the year. now everyone's having a say. >> folks say to me, are you connecting the dots? often when we interview people, we learn about more dots, that's exactl