tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC February 21, 2018 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
national rifle association. that's what seems so refreshing little truly american. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on all-in. >> you have the power to change this. if you don't, we will change. >> you one week after the florida massacre. >> this is to every lawmaker out there, we are coming after. >> you students across america demand action. >> shame on you. shame on you. >> tonight, how the never again movement is taking hold. how lawmakers are responding and how the white house is trying to manage the fallout. >> does anybody have any -- an idea for a solution to the school shooting? >> plus, how the far right social media and youtube are allowing the smearing of survivors. >> the only time you're doing anything that actually matters is when people try stopping you. >> and nbc news exclusive
reporting on paul manafort as new charges are reportedly filed. >> i think that's pretty tough stuff. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. it's been one week since a gunman used a legally purchased ar-15 rifle to murder 17 people at marjory stoneman douglas high school in parkland, florida. in the usual cycle of gun massacres in america, we would not be talking about it anymore. a week has passed, the nation's attention would have moved on. this is what is cable news looked like today covering a new movement launch bid survivors. high school students through sheer moral witness are refusing to let thoughts and prayers be the end of the story. these kids don't accept is the tired and worn out excuses for failing to address the exceptionally high levels of gun violence in this country. today the students stormed the florida state capitol for the
second day in a row rallying supporters to their cause. one week since having to flee their school under a hail of gunfire, students recounted what happened to them on that horrific day. >> i was scared and i ran to the safest place possible which is the sound booth again. i started to pace back and forward because i did not note what was going on. and the people in the audience saw me. they saw me and they paniced because i was matching the same description as nikolas cruz. then it the s.w.a.t. comes in and i thought they were here to rescue me but then as i go down the stairs, i find out that i was wrong. i found out that they thought it was me that killed the 17 people. i had six s.w.a.t. members pointing their guns at me. i knew any move i made would be the end of my life. we students must keep fighting for our right to live. if i had to drop everything else in my life just to make these
changes happial. because to me, to let meese victims lives be taken without any change in return is an act of treason to our great country. >> the students issued a warning to the lobby ave gun lobby and lawmakers they're coming. > no longer can you take money from the nra and do whatever it is that you want to do because we are coming after you, after every single one of you and demanding that you take action and make a change. >> they can walk around any question they want. but the more they don't act, the more they don't deserve to be in office. >> no more. no more placing nonsensical politics above our lives. no more accepting donations from the nra who seem to care plor about their right to own a gun than the lives of american children. >> to everyone at the nra and affiliated with the nra, we will not afraid of you and will not
be silenced by anything you have to say. we are here, our voices are loud and we're not stopping till change happens. >> the students are not alone. high school kids staged walkouts an you over the state some marching to show their support in person. students holding signs and calling out chants that could be heard inside the west wing. all over the country, teenagers, kids, students, held walkouts. they organized themselves to depend that their leaders take their safety seriously. it is a practice run of sorts for a nationwide march scheduled for march 24. flown follows politics understands what these kids are up against. they saw it for themselves at the florida state house yesterday. where lawmakers overwhelmingly rejected a motion to consider an assault weapons ban opting instead to declare pornography if i a health risk. but as the students force us to hear that hair voices we're watching them in realtime change
the politics of this debate. 66% of americans now support stricter gun laws. highest level ever in the quinnipiac poll. nra officials are playing defense. senator john cornyn is now promoting a bipartisan background check bill. staff for florida governor rick scott originally told students he was too busy to meet with them. he attended a funeral today for one of the students killed. he changed his mind after the students put up a fight. >> rick scott, where is rick scott? where is rick scott? where is rick scott in where is rick scott? where is rick scott? where is rick scott? >> the president of the united states who got more financial support from the nra than any other candidate in history called a listening session this afternoon with still man douglas survivors grieving parents from other school shootings and mass kaernz other american who's lost loved ones to gun violence. >> woke up to the news my best friend was gone.
and i don't understand why i could still go in a store and buy a weapon of war. how is it that easy to buy this type of weapon? how are we not stopping this after columbine, after sandy hook? i'm sitting with a mother that lost her son. >> these deaths were preventable. and i implore you, consider your own children. you don't want to be me. no parent does. and you have the ability to make a difference and save lives today. >> should have been one school shooting and we should have fixed it. and i'm pissed because my daughter i'm not going to see again. she's not here. my beautiful daughter never going to see again. and it's simple. it's not we could fix it. >> making real change policy and
laws in this country is obviously going to be an uphill battle. the clear signs these kids are moving the needle a week since they watched classmates and teachers be murdered before their eyes these children are the targets of a smear campaignton discredit their message. jason candor, former missouri secretary of state, president of latin america vote. shannon, as someone who worked on this issue for a while, what is happening? what are we seeing happen right now? >> you know, this is an important moment right now in this movement. we are seeing this generation who we have told for their entire lives that active shooters are like acts of nature like fires or earthquakes. they're waking up up and realizing we don't have to live like this and certainly don't have to die like this. i am grateful and amazed they are able to use their voices already. so soon after this tragedy and we are going to need every american to get off the
sidelines to create real change on this issue. >> jason, you were elected to statewide office in a state that is a pretty solidly red state these days. it's a state with pretty high support, high quotient of gun owners and support for gun rights and an expansive view of them. what do you see changing or not changing right now in the politics in this inflection point? >> i think it's pretty clear that one thing we have to remember is that whether or not action happens on a given day in congress, that doesn't really dictate whether or not we're winning the argument on this. we being folks who actually want to have common sense reforms when it comes to guns. as you just read off the polling and before this happened, is american people want to something to happen. that's why you're seeing right now the president and the people who the nra controls in congress playing a bit of a game. i think what they think they're going to patronage these kids for a while, i mean kids across the country and think they'll
move on to something else. i can tell you as somebody who, i was in my mid 20s when i had the experience of realizing that there were folks in charge who weren't looking out, weren't protecting us who were supposed to be. i was in afghanistan and a vehicle with no armor. these kids are in high school and younger and realizing that people who are supposed to protect them supposed to do the right thing aren't. i can tell you it defines your world view from there forward. these kids are not going anywhere. it's going to be a sustained effort because they're fighting for their lives. >> jason just said something that has been the defining feature of this debate in american life for a long time which is that you can poll people and 2-1 majorities for all kinds of common gun sense legislation. there is an intensity mismatch between the intensity nra and the other side. is that changing? >> you know, i've never seen this intensity gap. i'm the mom of five. i'm not numb. i wake up every day and fight on this issue as a volunteer.
we have nearly 100,000 volunteers across the country, 75,000 joined since last week. we're holding hundreds of eventsents across the country. i've never seen the intensity gap. 90% of americans agree we need stronger gun laws and a fualaaumakers who are beholden to the national rifle association who will not force any change at the federal level. >> if there is no intensity gap, why is the legislative record, why is it what it is? why is it the fact it is so hard to do very simple and basic things legislatively both at the state and federal level on anything relating to gun safety? >> because the nra gives money, gives campaign donations to donald trump and to some members of congress and some members of state legislatures. they will not even allow the bills to be discussed. one till we change the makeup of congress and our state legislatures, the will of the people is not going to be done. and that is what we have to bring this energy into the midterm elections and agree that we're going to make this a
priority issue that we vote on. are your members of congress or state legislatures receiving money from the nra. >> what's their rating? where do they stand on the issue? are you registered to vote. if you can't find the right candidate, you may have to run yourself. >> jason, you can see when a politician is uncomfortable. i can watch politicians squirming right now in the face of these kids. why? what is it about these voices we've been seeing and i think a lot of people are incredibly compelled by, what is it doing to these politicians? >> i think these politicians know they're wrong. and they've known they're wrong for a while. and they've been making a bargain, some sort of political bargain where they've said i think what they tell themselves, there's nothing i can do about it. it's not going to change. oftentimes these republicans in congress they know that you don't need an ar-15 to walk around in the streets of america and know it doesn't belong there. they know the weapon i carried in afghanistan seemingly the
same weapon doesn't belong on the street. they know that. and they've been able to get away with hiding behind the politics of it with hiding behind their constituency and now being faced with the humanity of it. that's why they look so uncomfortable. >> shannon and jason, thank you both. >> thank you. >> mark barden is the founder and managing direct of sandy hook promise a group dedicated to gun violence prevention, the father of a son murdered in the sandy hook shooting. you were there today in the white house. there was i thought a remarkable moment that i'd like to get you to elaborate on. the president talked about his idea of essentially more guns in schools, arming teachers. i want to play that bit of sound. and then have you respond because you had strong words about that. take a listen. >> but concealed carry for teachers and for pool of talent of that type of talent. let's say you had 20% of your teaching force because that's pretty much the number. if you had a teacher who was
adept at firearms, they could very well end the attack quickly. >> you raised your voice to say you didn't think that was a good idea. why? >> my, thanks for having me on. my wife is a school teacher, a career educator, she's been in the bronx over a decade. in the rural district now. she will tell you that the teachers have enough on their plate right now than to have to be trusted with deadly force and with the responsibility of taking a life. let alone the horrible potential ramifications of a shoot-out in an elementary school or a middle school or high school. what we need to do is arm our students and teachers and parents with the tools, how to recognize somebody who is at risk of hurting themself or somebody else and make an intervention and stop this before it happens. it is preventable. >> what was your take away? i watched that event today and i was rapt and at a certain point got a pit in my stomach.
you sort of laughed with recognition. why? >> so i will -- first of all, i want to tell you i have to give credit where it's due. so they are opening their doors to various people with different life experiences who can weigh in on this and they are listening. so we have gotten that far. they are listening and say they're listening. we have given them our ideas. and now we'll see what they do with that. i intend to follow up on this and stay on this. but i think we have to give credit where it's due they say they are listening. i will take them at face value on that and i have a lot to offer on the conversation and i hope they're listening. >> here is what i started to get worried about as i watched. there's an agreement we have to do something and the question becomes the something. i hear these ideas of arming teachers, armed guards, of soldiers, veterans in schools. of tsa style entrances to schools. i just started to worry that
this moment might end up with something that looks like the war on terror brought into every school in america. >> so chris, we have said a long time ago at sandy hook we don't want our schools to look like a prison with metal doors and armed guards and armed teachers. we have to do better than that. i know we can do better than that. that is exactly why sandy hook promise found the strategy we're wo working on prevention. it works. we've prevented skoot school shootings following our model. we need to reach everybody. that's what i'm asking the white house to do, help us nationalize our anonymous reporting system and nationalize our know the signs programs so that they're embedded in ought schools. i know we can make a difference, a substantial sustainable difference. >> what was it like to be in that room with other people who have experienced something similar? obviously no one can experience the same thing have you experienced but someone who has
experienced a lot of people experience something similar. >> i was just thinking you know, i have been in these rooms five years ago. trying to convince our congress to do something. i have been in those rooms subsequent to five years ago along the way. here i'm in this room again with another whole new group of people who are suffering another horrible american tragedy. i mean, how many times do we -- are we going to be filling rooms with families of victims of these horrendous tragedies. i'm just saying that the time is now we have the tools. let's get busies. >> mark barden, thanks for your time tonight. i really, really appreciate it. >> thank you, chris. coming up, the rapid succession of dominos falling in the mueller probe. reports of another set of charges, another set of charges filed against paul manafort and gates. nick ackerman is here with theories as always in two minutes. nick was born to move.
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charges in the russia investigation. special counsel robert mueller shows no sign of slowing down. political reporting reporting mueller filed new charges in the case of paul manafort and his aide rick gates. those new charges rrnlgs under seal which means we don't have a lot of detail on them. we know they're there. we know mueller and his team have been very busy in the past few days. on friday, mueller indicted 13 russian individuals three russian companies for interfering in the election. he had a guilty plea from an american man saying he sold u.s. bank accounts to buyers abroad apparently part of the scheme. over the weekend came reporting that that former campaign aide rick gates manafort's number two is close to a plea deal with mueller. yesterday, mueller announces out of nowhere to all of us following the case the guilty plea of a dutch lawyer who was
lying to investigators about his interactions with gates. at some point, mueller also filed the new charges in the gates is/manafort case. while we don't know the specifics of the new charges we do know investigators are now probing whether manafort promised a chicago banker a white house job in exchange for home loans totaling $16 million. so much money it totals 5% of all of the bank's loans. all from a bank that describes itself on facebook as having a focus on va and fha lending for active duty and first time home buyers. here is nick ackerman. let's start with the indictments. what are they? why are they? >> normally you seal an indictment when you're concerned about somebody fleeing. and you don't want them to know the indictment's under seal. i think here though, more likely what we have is the actual plea information that rick gates is going to plead guilty to.
>> so the sealed indictment might be a plea. >> right. they've done that. mueller has done that with other indictments. and so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if what's under seal right now is the risk gates plea. it's very possible. >> all right. so i want to play two theories for how this is going. tell me what you think it is. one is that there were a lot of stretchy people around the president in his campaign and along comes an adepartment prosecutor with a good staff and picks up the rock and goes look at all this criminal activity. i'm not going to let this go. you're laundering money and lying to federal investigators, you're shady left and right. indictment, indictment, indictment. other is all the things mueller are doing even though seemingly sort of disparate connect backing to something central. which of those two? >> i think it's clearly they all connect back to the central notion that the trump campaign conspired with the russian government to throw the election to donald trump. that's where the 13 russians
that you saw were indicted. you'll notice right in the front of the indictment it talks about the various 13 defendants conspirators and others known and unknown to the grand jury. so they clearly have in mind they've got one baseline right now. there was absolutely no question about it. russian interference in our 2016 election. that's a given. then if you take into account all of the other actions that are going on here, it's almost like a cles board. right now, mueller has got a knight. he's got flynn. he's got three pawns. he's got papadopoulos, he's got the dutch lawyer. and he's got rick gates. he's also knocked out one of his had castles in the sense of that whole argument about the russian investigation being a hoax. and in the meantime, the queen
who is manafort, is being closed in from all sides and faces almost certain jailtime. what we have is we're getting very close to checkmate. and that's why you see all of this crazy activity from donald trump where he's tweeting all kinds of irrational statements. >> yet again today, we should note, directing his attorney general essentially in a public venue to criminally investigate his political enemies. >> that's right. he's doing. >> which he does normally and which we've sort of gotten used to. >> if you take all of these things together, he knows from his joint defense agreement with his lawyers what questions are being asked people close to him. he knows that the investigation is starting to close in on him. >> what do you make of the dutch lawyer? i mean, a lot of people thought this was strange. strange for a number of reasons. it's extraordinary to indict a lawyer. you ped to get justice department permission to do it.
he seems someone ancillary. the lies that were told were about this kind of propaganda document that skadden arps put together to protect a client of manafort's that they worked on. what do you make of it. >> the key piece is a september of 2016 conversation with an unidentified person in that information. >> one of the things he lied about according to the charging document. >> right. if you notice that information and the allocution that goes with it that he had to admit to before the court makes it pretty clear that what is said in that conversation a lot of details are missing. it happens right in the middle of the campaign in september of 2016. and my guess is, that that conversation relates directly to the conspiracy between the russian government and the trump campaign. >> really? you really think that? >> i'm absolutely positive. why would they ever go after a guy for something that happened
in the ukraine. 2012? who cares. whied they try and get more evidence on manafort when they've got an indictment that's a slam-dunk? >> i like the fact that you make sfiplations that are going to be verified or nonverified. we will know. nick ackerman. >> exactly. >> thanks for joining me. >> thank you. coming up, reports jared kushner is resisting attempts to limit his access in the white house 30,000 precision parts. or it isn't. it's inspected by mercedes-benz factory-trained technicians. or it isn't. it's backed by an unlimited mileage warranty, or it isn't. for those who never settle, it's either mercedes-benz certified pre-owned, or it isn't. the mercedes-benz certified pre-owned sales event. now through february 28th. only at your authorized mercedes-benz dealer.
and you've got a job position to fill that will includes kaw criminal justice reform, veterans administration reform, government reform and american innovation, again, a big topic, middle east peace, a tough nut to crack, liaison to the muslim community because sure, why not, but also you have to liase with china and mexico and you should probably negotiate nafta for good measure. you also have to manage the opioid crisis apartment response. who might you seek to do that job? after it all, it entails so many areas of expertise and seems to assume experience in government and foreign affairs and tackles is the opioid crisis, peace in the middle east that the best and brightest have tried to solve. but the person you hire for that job is instead the heir to a real estate fortune. a highly leveraged real estate fortune currently seeking cash infusions an heir whose greatest claim to fame was he bought a newspaper in new york called
"the observer," at the age of 25 years. the applicant has no experience in government, foreign policy, health care, criminal justice, u.s. trade agreements or crisis management. none of that but you hire him anyway because he's your son-in-law. it's the same way you make your daughter a senior adviser and choose her to lead the u.s. delegation at the closing ceremony at the winter olympics just because you know, family. in the case of kushner, there has been some reporting over the past year his responsibilities have been scaled back. but as in the case of middle east peace, they have not been ended. not only does the guy you chose for this expansive portfolio have no relevant experience or no experience, he can't even get through a background check. then what do you do? that's next. 2 diabetes. so you have type 2 diabetes, right? yeah. yes i do. okay so you diet, you exercise, you manage your a1c? that's the plan. what about your heart? what do you mean my heart? the truth is, type 2 diabetes can make you twice as likely to die from a cardiovascular event, like a heart attack or stroke.
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white house whose investigations or adjudications have been pending since june 1st, 2017 or before. according to "the washington post," is the move puts a bullseye on kushner. kushner according to the times is resistant to relinquishing access to sensitive material including the presidential daily previous. "mr. kushner concerned that mr. kelly has targeted him personally with a directive told colleagues at the white house he is reluctant to give up his high level access." there's probably good reason his permanent clearance hasn't been granted yet. he amended his federal disclosure to get clearance four times including an amended that added 00 foreign contacts. he released a veerized financial disclosure to include 77 assets inadvertent lit omitted. jason costen is the senior politics reporter at vox. what precedent is there for a
figure like kushner in a white house? >> well, that's just it. there really isn't one. we're kind of in uncharted territory when it comes to having the president's son-in-law have such a high level platform within the white house of an official characteristic. you know, i think that that is something that's extra challenging about this particular situation. a lot of times the security clearances if you're coming from one branch of the government to the executive office, your security clearance might not take as along. donald trump in his effort to drain the swamp brought in a whole bunch of people who had never had any experience in government and therefore, would not have gone through the same security clearance procedures. so you know, we haven't seen something like that before. that's why i think it's especially challenging to figure out what will happen with the relationship between jared kushner and john kelly. >> that's the big question. kelly appears to be sort of issuing a bit of an ultimatum here. clearly the memo seems aimed
maybe not exclusively at kushner but if the policy is what he says it is, kushner can't do his job. what are the options? >> it's worg recognizing john kelly before the rob porter scandal was well aware of the allegations against rob porter and still allowed him to both travel with the president and help with the state of the union. when he first found found about the allegations against porter, hires first reaction was to be surprised porter was old enough to have two exwives. it's unclear what the ramifications of this memo might be when kelly in the past has seed kind of willing to let this go in a sense. especially since you know, in a battle between john kelly and the president's son-in-law, it's a little unclear who would win. >> you raise something that just popped into my head which is that it has seemed for a long
time porter and kushner were somewhat parallel cases. they had long background checks taking a very long time, perhaps because there were red flags raised. they had an interim clearance as an end running around the fact that some recommendation came back they shouldn't have clearance. it occurs to me whatever the red flags are in the case of kushner like in the case of porter have probably been raised to someone, don mccann, kelly may know what they are, right? >> right. what we saw with porter is the fbi submitted its preliminary investigation in march. there was more details given to the white house personnel office in july. with a final report completed in september. porter himself was aware that the allegations against him had been brought up. in fact, he spoke to one of his ex-wive who had made the allegations during their fbi background check. during that conversation asking, did you tell the fbi about the allegations against me. so clearly, you would have to think that the fbi would have
notified the white house of something going on. they did so in the case of porter, they would have done so in the caves kushner. >> whatever the red flags are they're probably known inside that white house which i would imagine will end up determining what this outcome is, although ultimately the president can just grant a waiver. >> yeah, and i think that's really important to recognize. and i think that's why it's been a little disingenuous of someone within the administration to say let's put this on the fbi when it is up to the hiring office to have these security clearances. technically the president can say obviously you can't obtain a permanent security clearance. i'm going to give you a permanent security cleeshs. and so i think that it will depend not so much on the information that the white house has but on president trump's own decision making. > it will be interesting to see how that plays out. jayne coasten, senior politics reporter great to have you. thank you. >> thank you. >> ahead, why is the president's
former bodyguard keel schiller quietly being paid $15,000 a month by the rnc? we have some trump's best people updates coming up and quite possibly the highest level of-in-law warfare history in tonight's thing 1, thing 2 next. that's my girl! that's it! get it, woo, yeah! mom! my game's over. parents aren't perfect, but then they make us kraft mac & cheese and everything's good again.
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you can do it. we can do this. at fidelity, our online planning tools are clear and straightforward so you can plan for retirement while saving for the things you want to do today. -whoo! thing 1 tonight, donald trump has been obsessed with so-called chain migration what many consider an offensive way to refer to america's family reunification immigration policy that allows a citizen to sponsor their spouse, children, parents or siblings for immigration to the u.s. trump talks about ending that policy a lot. >> need to end chain migration, ending chain migration. and canceling the visa lottery. >> we will get rid of chain migration. >> i started talking about chain migration. >> chain migration. >> chain migration is one of the
disasters. chain migration is a disaster. >> a disaster. >> a total disaster. >> we have to end chain migration. we have to end chain migration. >> so he talks about it a lot. ending family reunification has long been pushed by immigration harders but we learned something that makes you think it might be a super passive aggressive thing against his "in laws. in 60 seconds. including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. flonase.
"the washington post" has been asking a simple question, the white house refused answer. what is the immigration status of the first lady's parents. they're from slow veechb yalg but living in america for at least a decade. today the post got an answer. victor and amalia are legal permanent residents and close to obtaining their citizenship. their attorney declined to say how or when they gained their
green cards. it's likely melania sponsored her parents which she can do under, wait for it, america's family reunification policy or trump calls it is chain migration. a past president of the american immigration association says her sponsorship of the parents appears to have been the only way they could have obtained green cards which means if they're here because of chain migration, this isn't a nice way to talk about your in-laws in public. >> chain migration is bringing in.many people with one one and often it doesn't work out well. those people are not doing us right. met regularly with our ameriprise advisor. we plan for everything from retirement to college savings. giving us the ability to add on for an important member of our family. welcome home mom.
in our ongoing series where we collect on the president's best people. david shulkin, an obama administration holdover who is viewed an as noncontroversial fresh off a rebuke from his own department's inspector general after his staff lied so the secretary's wife could come with him on a publicly funded trip to europe. he is now purging the va telling politico he is investigating what he called subversion at the agency and those who defied his authority won't be working in my operation. okay. then there's the only administration official working nearly as many jobs as jared kushner. that is nick mulvaney both at the same time the budget director and also the acting head of the consumer protection bureau an agency he once vowed to kill. >> it turns up being a joke. that's what the cfpb has been in a sick sad kind of way. some of us would like to get rid of it. >> you'll be shocked to learn he's currently dismantling the entire point of the cfpb.
staffers spent years building a case against golden valley lending claiming the lender illegal little charges people up to 950% interest rates. nick mulvaney who got more than $60,000 from payday lenders while he was in congress just dropped the suit without explanation. finally trump's bodyguard who punched a protester in the face outside trump tower during the campaign. remember that? he allegedly escorted both stormy daniels and karen mcdug to their encounter with trump in 2006, he confirmed a russian offer to send women to trump's room, an offer he said they declined, that keith schiller who knows where a lot of the bodies are buried when it comes to the president and who left his job in september has just shown up, surprise, on the payroll of the rnc. his private security firm is now being paid $15,000 a month,
$75,000 so far to provide what the republican national committee calls security consultation for the rnc2020 convention site selection process. if the rnc continues paying him this rate, his fee will be north of half a million dollars because trump's people need the best possible employment terms. ♪ i thought i was managing my moderate to severe crohn's disease. then i realized something was missing... me. my symptoms were keeping me from being there.
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"fiddler on the roof", you would know nobody would pay me for anything. what i have seen has been a miracle of miracles. >> that was a student activist brushing off one of the insane and frankly disgusting conspiracy theories that's emerged in the wake of the shooting last week. now conspiracy theories in the wake of a tragedy are not new. but what is new is the spread with which they are spreading through the incredible prominence they are given online. this is a facebook post about another school student, david haug. but it had been shared over 111,000 times. it is still a trending topic. a conspiracy theory about hogg was on youtube. if you search his name, conspiracy videos made up most of the top results of this kid. this is what the internet is
producing. these posts and videos have likely now been seen by thousands and tens of thousands of people. it's a real time look at the information apocalypse where our world is vulnerable to propaganda, to dark-targeted advertising from foreign governments so much so that it threatens to undermine the credibility of fact. joining me by phone, charlie wurtzell. and charlie, let me start with you. i just quoted that piece. we have technical difficulties, so we have you on the phone. why is it, and how can it be the case that within 24 hours of this happening or a few days, that this kid is the subject of conspiracy theories that are getting the kieds nds of numberd kinds of prominence on major platforms that we saw.
>> i think it's two things. we have these platforms set up and really sort of geared toward incentivizing incendiary sensationalism. they're engineered for scale, to sort of prioritize that above all else, and then i think on the other end of that, you have the people who are in charge of, you know, governing these platforms, of trying to make sure that this stuff doesn't sort of crop up. that they can kind of keep a handle on the true odious stuff that's there. and i think that there's an unwillingness to play that role as well as a, just, i think a difficulty understanding, maybe, just how bad it is. >> am i, i have recently come to feel like we are in a real crisis point with the way that the current digital landscape is
constituted, and partly because of the great stuff in your book and other stuff, but is it real bad and real dark out there? >> i do think we are in an information crisis. we've always had polarization. there's a feedback looping which information that polarizes goes viral very quickly on these pla platforms. these conspiracy theories come out of nowhere. and people who are prone to believing start clicking on it and the algorithm say ooh, this is engaging. then people start clicking on it to say, can you believe this? and the algorithm goes ooh, this is engaging. the al ga rigorithm is acting te
way. it's being shared by someone you know. it's peer to peer, socialization. it's not like reading a book our newspaper. it's your friends, your family, your acquaintance, your social affirmation. and it seeds on itself with the algorithm and polarization and yes, we have a crisis. >> the trust factor, yesterday you had a republican state rep in florida, a staffer in his office sent an e-mail on state e-mail to a reporter just saying oh, by the way, these kids aren't real, like with the conspiracy theory. what was shocking and upsetting to me in that moment was he believed that. that the e-mail as phrased is i'm passing on a piece of information that you should know because he had gotten it from someone that he had trusted. >> i think that speaks to, you
know, how, how this sort of online fever culture has taken root inside of people. i think we're going to see youtube, reddit, all these sort of places where conspiracies sort of bubble up and take root in had this conspiratorial metastasizes. the platforms have been around for a while, and they've really been unproven in this way, and i think we're going to see those people get more, they're going to start taking jobs in government and have, clearly, and moving on into the world. and we're going to see the effects of this sort of socializati socialization for a long time. >> it also strikes me, there's a classic sort of negative externality, a pollution problem. you dump it in the river and everyone in the town has to deal with it.
but these big platforms are monetizing eyeballs, they're monetizing and label being a 16 year old kid who just saw his classmates murder. the pollution just goes into the water. there has to be a way to crack down on that. >> people use lead in paint for a reason. it made paint stick better. asbestos was useful. it just created all these externalities. but what's happened, the platforms legally are under a safe harbor law that exempts them from liability. so they get to let anything go through, but nine out of ten in new digital ad dollars is going to facebook and google. they have no legal liability. and the a moderation is both too little and also probably, it's not completely moderatable under this business law, because facebook has 22 billion people. there's this business model and
incentives are aligned so that it's embarrassing, for sure, to hear this on national tv for facebook employees, probably, but if you've got facebook stock, you're doing great. that's the problem, there's no incentive on them to fix this at the moment, besides that we're talking about it. >> both fantastic writers on this topic. that is "all in" for this evening. rachel maddow starts now. >> thank you at home for joining us. we're following a lot of developing news stories. very happy to have you with us. one of the things that's going on in the conservative media right now is that the fox news channel and conservative media online, they've started agitating today for something you would not expect. they've started agitating today, advocating today that trump national security adviser mike flynn should withdraw his