tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC December 6, 2018 12:00am-1:00am PST
sitting just off camera for our entire interview because she said she want to hear what they were all going to say about her husband. that is our broadcast on this wednesday night. thank you so much for being here with us. good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york. tonight on "all in". >> he did something right. >> one day after the flynn memo. >> damn right. >> what we're learning about what was redacted. >> you guys were good. >> and why the memo should worry donald trump and jared kushner. the untold saudi spending at president trump's hotel. then, republicans follow through with the vote to grab power from democrats in wisconsin. >> let's face it, the republicans this year are very poor losers. >> and new calls for a new vote in north carolina at the state's election fraud scandal gets
worse. >> what were you doing? >> i was helping mccray pick up ballots. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. president trump sat in the national cathedral today surrounded by former presidents for george h.w. bush's funeral. you have to wonder, what exactly was running through his head? the last time he was sitting that close, as close as he was today to president barack obama the two men were meeting in the white house just a few days after trump's 2016 surprise election victory. and it was on that day that the former president barack obama offered the incoming president, donald trump, two pieces of advice. one, stay vigilant in north korea. and two, do not hire michael flynn as your national security adviser. that latter piece of advice sure looks prussian in anticipated and unanticipated ways. president trump might be wishing
he had taken it as he looks over this document here. this was released by the special counsel's office last night, a document that repeatedly refers to michael flynn's "substantial assistance," assistance that flynn has offered over the course of 19 interviews. the document refers to "several ongoing investigations" and it lays them out. the obvious one, "b," the special counsel's office's investigation. "the defendant has also assisted with the fco investigation concerning links or coordination between the russian government and individuals associated with the trump campaign." but there are apparently two other investigations. michael flynn is substantially assisting with these. "a," redacted criminal investigation, an unspecified criminal investigation. lots of black bars under that one. and even more tantalizingly there's still more, this one, this short indented line indicating a third matter. this one so secret that even the heading is entirely redacted, along with the description below
it. so three ongoing investigations. the president, his family members and his associates have to be wondering what is behind all those black bars? get into the thick of it. bring in congressman eric swalwell, and tim o'brien, executive editor of bloomberg review, his latest piece, mueller's flynn memo should worry turn near and trump. congressman, i'll start with you, your reaction to what we do and don't know based on that document, what it means for your work in congress. >> good evening, chris. it's all the more reason we should make sure we protect the mueller investigation, especially as we're on the eve of a potential government shutdown. the republicans can't sort a vote out among themselves to keep the government open. democrats want to negotiate. but something that i and others would like to see is that the special counsel's investigation be allowed to proceed without the president as it gets closer to he and his family interfering in it. also, chris, flynn represents the quo.
there's a quid pro quo, you know, in every transaction. and you had the russians offering dirt, donald trump jr. accepting the dirt, and then candidate trump telling the russians if you're listening you'll be rewarded if you give us more dirt. so what was the quo after the russians delivered by interfering? well, flynn represents part of it by telling the ambassador, hold off on any retaliation against us. but the other question that is outstanding, as we learn about the saudis and the turks is, are there other countries and are there other quos? it looks like this president was open to do business with anyone that wanted to help him. >> that's a great point. i want to ask you about turkey in a moment. tim, go to you, though, you wrote this piece that caught my eye. a very senior member of the presidential transition team directed flynn to make an overture to kislyak about the sanctions vote, the thing he lied about that got him into trouble. and nbc news, kushner was the
senior member. what does that mean? >> it means that kushner is an unnamed person of interest in these documents. and i think that there's other shoes to drop on this. and i think the fact that the mueller sentencing memorandum, for flynn last night, actually revealed so little that was new, but also redacted things that were substantive. it should worry the white house and it should worry jared kushner specifically because he also had his own direct conversations with sergey kislyak, the russian ambassador to the united states. one of them, flynn was in the conversation with him. >> another, he proposed to have a back channel in the ambassador's secret chamber. >> and in yet another he met with a russian banker, a senior russian banker with close ties to the kremlin. and i think, to put this in context, jared kushner was in financial stress at the time.
his family had purchased and overpaid for a skyscraper on fifth avenue. they could not afford to hold onto. and during the prior months to these negotiations he had been negotiating with the chinese and other investors to bail him out of this. he has said, and he told this to congress, that when he met with the russians he didn't speak with them about investments. after he talked to congress he came out and gave a press statement, a fairly lengthy one, in which he actually didn't detail all of his intersections with kislyak. but reaffirmed, i didn't talk about business. i didn't talk about money. that was before michael flynn began cooperating. >> right. >> michael flynn has cooperated extensively. if what he has said runs contrary to what jared kushner has said, and if what he has said is backed up by documents robert mueller's team has acquired, or electronic surveillance they've engaged in when they were surveilling flynn, which they know they were doing for a period of time, that could come back to haunt kushner legally. >> tim, you bring up the point about the way in which jared
kushner, senior member of the administration, was open to compromise by a variety of foreign interests. and congressman, you just mentioned that as a kind of theme here that may expand out past the russians and on that i want to read you this "new york times" story which is basically about the fact that it could be the case that one of those redacted investigations is actually about a turkish angle to this. as the flynn case winds down and investigation of turkish lobbying persists, it says that special counsel robert mueller has referred to the eastern district of virginia a criminal investigation due to turkish influence. what do you think of that? >> again, it aligns not only with candidate trump and his family's dealings and then we saw during the transition a number of meetings that they took that were unusual for a transition team to meet with foreign nationals and foreign dignitaries. but national security adviser flynn who was open for business as well, he had gone over to russia in 2015, sat next to
vladimir putin, had these deals he did not disclose ongoing with turkey. i think that made people qualified to be on the trump team, that they had these other dealings and that they too saw american values as transactional rather than being rooted in democracy and human rights. >> tim, this, to me, is where this is where the sort of rubber hits the road. this is the sort of nexus point. >> follow the money. >> follow the money. foreign interests, compromising a candidate and then an american president, possibly russia, possibly others. >> well, and also, you know, remember that old saying that the fish stinks from the head. for the first half of 2016 we now know that trump, michael cohen and felix sater were trying to get a real estate deal done in moscow. the president himself was very -- the candidate at the time -- was happy to wear two hats, running for office and trying to do business deals on the side.
>> he's admitted as such. >> we know that paul manafort was doing the same thing. >> that's right. >> we now know that michael flynn was trying to do the same thing with the turkish government. all of them were on the make. i don't think any of them thought donald trump was going to get elected. i don't think they thought about the consequences of their actions at the time, whether it was meeting with russians, saying they had stuff on hillary clinton, or cutting side business deals, that any of this would come back to haunt them and be the subject of inquiry from someone as formidable as robert mueller. >> congressman eric swalwell and tim o'brien, thank you for joining me. and joining me now, mimi rocah, deputy assistant attorney general, co-authors at the nbc news think piece, a bribery scheme involving russia. bribery is a word with a specific force. as someone who came up covering chicago politics, you know a thing or two about this.
what's your argument? >> in chicago politics, the bribery here doesn't necessarily involve a bag of cash. this is bribery -- a bribery scheme is the way to look at it. it ties into what you were talking about in the first segment. just being a candidate who is pursuing business in russia in and of itself may not be criminal, may, may not. but if you're doing that, and expecting something, you know, giving something in return for that, once -- or expecting to give something in return for that, once you're in that official position that you're trying to get. >> right. >> that would be a bribery scheme. so if he -- if trump is getting -- thinks that he's going to get the ability to build trump tower in moscow in exchange for sanctions relief for russia, that would be a bribe scheme. >> that's a bribe. >> the bag of cash is trump tower and the official act is the sanctions.
there's a lot of facts that need to be filled in. i'm not saying this could be charged or proven right now. but there's a lot of evidence that we already know about, things in the public record, that point to this may be where this is going and that different -- other different actors around trump may have played parts in this scheme or conspiracy. >> and one thing that's important, harry, here that i think was -- people haven't quite sunk in, in the importance of this in the cohen plea, russian -- vladimir putin's office was the one michael cohen was dealing with and they were the ones giving the green light. it's not like you're trying to build a building somewhere, and you've got the local zoning board. this was vladimir putin's going to say yes, you can do this or you cannot do that. to your analysis that seems to count for a lot. >> yeah. buddy boy, we'll get putin to bless this and we'll get trump elected as felix sater, cohen's consort here, said, that's
right, he was dealing with, officially, a press office person who we know in the overall kremlinology as sort of number two and has a direct line to putin. and this is trump's dearest sort of imperial ambition. he's been thinking about this for years. and, of course, on the other side nothing dear, potentially, to putin, than the lifting of the sanctions. so it's an enormously attractive deal for both sides. when you frame it in a criminal law violation you hit the little snag in the road that trump, at least as of june 2016, is a serious candidate. but not the nominee. >> right. >> a nominee is impeccably an official under the law for bribery. but as a matter of saying, this is the deal that we're going to set up, felix sater, donald trump, that states a conspiracy
and trump just has to make the next step of becoming the nominee. but that's the agreement. >> so there's two pieces of news recently. there's a flynn memo yesterday, and flynn of course pleads guilty about lying to kislyak when he talked about sanctions, he said he didn't and he did. michael cohen pleading guilty for lying to congress about trying to get trump tower in moscow built. there's a connection between these two men that's important to remember. the strange story from february 2017, that a week before michael flynn resigned as national security adviser a sealed proposal was hand delivered to his office outlining a way for trump to lift sanctions against russia, those pushing it michael cohen, the president's personal lawyer, felix sater who helped scout russia. >> i sort of -- you can't keep track of all the details, i'm sure mueller is.
i'd forgotten about that detail. that's important. >> it puts flynn and cohen, in different orbits, on the same trajectory of get the sanctions lifted. >> it's a direct connection between the sanctions and the trump tower and, you know, again, i think that the idea is -- so cohen pled guilty to lying. flynn pled guilty to lying. the lies in and of themselves are significant crimes. if we're trying to piece together, was there a bigger scheme here? who were the people who were or -- orchestrating it. under the law you don't have to know every single part of a scheme. those are the people we haven't seen yet. maybe there was no one. maybe there was no one really putting this all together. but it seems a bit complicated for only michael cohen to be randomly acting on his own and flynn to be acting on his own. >> to that end, harry, what i've heard from the prosecutors and lawyers and folks i've been talking to, on and off the show
is, these lies, the lies appear to be material to investigations of underlying criminal activity. this was not a lie incidental to the thing being investigated. both men pleading to lying about a thing that people assume is materially relevant to the underlying crime. >> and not only that, but serious in its own weight. this is what giuliani just called spitting on the sidewalk. as tim says, everyone's on the make. so just take the lie that flynn told. he's covering up his own business relationship with turkey that he's already made $500,000 from, and he hasn't registered for. and he wants to make a lot more. trump has personal in addition to governmental interests. obviously kislyak the same. so this is the lie itself is particularly grave.
you have essentially flynn carrying on a kind of rogue foreign policy in transition that deals with nuclear power for turkey, sanctions for russia, not minor matters that he's fiddling around in for essentially personal business reasons. it's both corrupt and eyebrow raising from the standpoint of national security. >> mimi rocah and harry lipman, thank you both. tonight, more breaking news and it's right in line with what we were just discussing, this one suggesting a foreign government has been lining the president's pockets quite explicitly. dave farenthold from the "washington post" is here with his latest report on saudi's spending spree at trump d.c. hotel. you're going to want to hear this one, next. today is the day you're going to get motivated... get stronger... get closer. start listening today to the world's largest selection of audiobooks on audible. and now, get more. for just $14.95 a month, you'll get a credit a month good for any audiobook,
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the most compelling stories. unstopand it's strengthenedting place, the by xfi pods,gateway. which plug in to extend the wifi even farther, past anything that stands in its way. ...well almost anything. leave no room behind with xfi pods. simple. easy. awesome. click or visit a retail store today. tonight, where am i? here, here. tonight now reporting that saudi arabia used u.s. military veterans to pump money into a trump hotel. "the washington post" reports that lobbyists representing the saudi government paid for an estimated 500 rooms at president
trump's d.c. hotel in the months after his election, the total bill for those trips, more than $270,000. according to the post the lobbyists rented the rooms ostensibly as part of a pressure campaign to overturn legislation, opposed by the saudi government. the lobbyists offered veterans a free trip to washington if they then went to capitol hill lobbying against the law. several veterans told the post the trips featured fancy dinners, an open bar frequently extended. one of the veterans said he was confused by the opulent nature of the trips until one of the organizers who had been drinking at the champagne -- oh, we were just used to giving trump money. one of the "washington post" reporters who broke the story is with me. and former national security adviser to hillary clinton. dave, this is a shocking story, 500 rooms in a few months. >> that's right.
the saudi lobbyists started reserving blocks of rooms at trump's hotels starting december 2016 within months of his election. and within 2016 and february 2017 they reserved 500 rooms at trump's hotel. >> to put that in perspective, that must stand out on the balance sheet of a hotel, right? presumably not a lot of other people are booking 500 rooms at a time. >> that's right. and especially, you remember what was happening in january 2017 when four of these big trips happened, president trump was being inaugurated. it's a busy season for any hotel. but then you're talking about the inauguration of president trump and you're staying at president trump's hotel that month. it's hard to imagine a greater crunch in any hotel than that. >> one more question. you suggest in the story, reading between the lines, it looks like the lobbying effort was cover. they're lobbying on a 9/11 bill that they can sue the saudis, it didn't seem to be effective
lobbying, they're using veterans. was it actually a lobbying campaign? >> well, one of the things the veterans said, as you suggested was they felt like there was a lot of energy and time spent into giving them a really nice time at the trump hotel. when they went to capitol hill to do what they were supposed to do, lobby, they weren't given very much material to describe, weren't prepared well for meetings with legislators and they were sent, as you said, again and again and again back to washington at a time when everyone was paying attention to the new president and not focused on this law. they sent them back again and again to legislators who clearly made up their mind. they would go back four or five times to somebody who was a no on try number one. >> jake, what is your reaction hearing this? >> well, the timing on this is really important. this is right after donald trump is coming into the white house, which means that basically even before he got elected the memo went out to autocrats across the world, which was basically if you're prepared to pay the trump organization, trump hotels, the trump family, help them out in some way they'll do right by
you. in your first segment you heard about how that logic played out with the russians. now you're seeing how it's playing out with the saudis. and as we speak here tonight, the trump administration is protecting the crown prince of saudi arabia against the american intelligence. the chinese giving trade marks to ivanka trump, other dictators pitching hotels in their countries. donald trump has put his family business ahead of the nation's business and for the american people that basically means their national security is being put up to the highest bidder. >> are you worried about -- are you worried about the degree he's compromised by these business interests and whether he knows all this and whether it's getting reported up to him? >> look, i think donald trump actually has a very simple world view which is you do right by me, i do right by you. and the problem with that world view is america's national security doesn't really fit into it.
>> right. >> that's his afterthought. that's kind of a second tier consideration for him. he likes mbs, mohammad bin salman, the crown prince of saudi arabia, he likes vladimir putin, he likes anyone who will come either say nice things about him or do right by him in his business. and so from a foreign policy perspective it's a bit baffling to even opine on this because it's so out of step with any president that we've had in recent memory that you have a guy sitting in the oval office who basically views the job as an opportunity for him to get ahead and his family to get ahead, even if it comes at the expense of what makes sense for the united states. >> david, this is the second story you've written about the saudis pouring money into trump hotels. in both these cases how did you find this out? it makes me wonder, like how much else is there like this? >> that's a really good question
to ask. so we've actually found big saudi expenditures at three trump hotels, the one in new york where travelers accompanying mohammad bin salman, one stay by saudi travelers was enough to put the trump hotel in new york in the black for the whole quarter, the first quarter of 2018. there's this example. and then trump's hotel in chicago is also reported an uptick this saudi customers since trump won elections. all those things came from reporting, talking to investors, veterans involved in these things. it's not something the trump organization or trump administration has put out. there's a huge amount we don't know and would like to know about what other foreign governments are using trump businesses and we don't know about them yet. >> jake, a notable detail, it's an american lobbying firm that's making the purchases and that, again, the white house said we're going to give away the foreign profits from trump hotels and he writes a big novelty check once a quarter. but who knows what businesses are functioning as cutouts for foreign entities? >> yeah. i mean, look, i think we probably just scratched the surface of the totality of the
ways in which foreign governments are now trying to essentially buy favor from the trump administration. i mean, what's clear about this case that david just reported on is this book was -- you know, the playbook was written and deliberated around the world from the moment donald trump has been in the white house. >> yeah. >> and that means that autocrats and dictators in every corner of the world who have said, look, i've got to get something out of the united states right now, knows. you go to an american lobbyist, you go to a trump family member, you go to a trump hotel, and slowly by surely you can make some small investments that will pay off for you down the road. trump has been pretty predictable in back up essentially anyone who has done right by the trump business. and, you know, from the perspective, again, of american foreign policy and u.s. national security, it's almost difficult to wrap your mind around this like, this is the kind of petty
tin pot dictator stuff you expect from a former soviet republic. it's not what you expect from the president of the united states. >> david farenthold and jake sullivan, thank you both. republicans suspected of being involved with election fraud are now being served subpoenas. the reporter that's been on the ground covering this unbelievable story joins me next. think it's too late to save on insurance? don't miss the deadline. there's only days remaining in the enrollment period. funny thing about health insurance. you don't think about how much you need it. until you need it. he's not going to be okay. from emergencies to just regular life. having the right plan for you can mean all the difference in the care you get and how much you pay. don't worry, sweetheart. it's going to get better. (silence) that's why i love health markets,
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joe bruno with wsoctv tweeting tonight that the state board of elections has issued subpoenas for the harris campaign and others. this comes after the state's largest newspaper, the charlotte observer called for a new election in the quote/unquote tainted district. north carolina's bipartisan board of elections has twice refused to certify the results in the district where harris leads by 105 votes. we must have an oversight hearing to look into this. joining me in lumberton, wsoc-tv reporter joe bruno who has done the best reporting on this story. joe, what is the latest here? thanks so much first of all for that compliment there. the latest really is that subpoenas have been issued to the mark harris campaign, the campaign of jim mcvicker who is
the sheriff of bladen could want and also red dome. red dome worked heavily with the mark harris campaign. the reason the subpoenas were issued to these three groups is very likely because of their connections to mccray dallas. >> he's the individual who appears to have been at the center of this scheme. can you explain, best of the evidence you gathered, what actually was the scheme here, as best as people can tell? >> so what i've gathered from talking to people who know mccray and worked with him, he basically would go around with a group of people and help voters sign up for absentee by mail ballots. and he had a list of people that had the absentee ballots already delivered to their homes or likely had their absentee
ballots already delivered to their homes so he knew whose ballot to go around and pick up. so as from what we can tell mccray had a team of people whose job it was to go around and pick up finished absentee ballots. and in north carolina that is illegal. >> that is illegal and it also looks like -- i've seen some reporting indicating that there's like four races he's worked in. if you go back and look at the bladen county absentee ballot totals, his candidate, in all those races, republican primaries, this race going back, is winning by hundreds of votes in that one category. >> in the 2016 primary he worked for a man by the name of todd johnson who ran against incumbent robert pittinger and mark harris. johnson got 221 of 226 absentee by mail votes. those are insane numbers. then in the 2018 election robert pittinger only got 14 or 17 votes. mark harris got hundreds more
than him. again, that's an incumbent who is being defeated by huge numbers. that is a huge red flag right there. first of all, that mark harris goes from four absentee by mail votes in 2016 to like 400 in 2018. but it shows you that the two campaigns he was working for, his ties to these blowout victories and the numbers just stand out completely against what the other results are in the ninth district. >> what strikes me about this is this was not that secret in the sense that you, a very enterprising local tv reporter, has now been able to have two on camera interviews with individuals paid by him to do something facially illegal under north carolina law, protect ballots. this doesn't seem like a secret. am i wrong? >> everybody in bladen county seems to know who mccray dallas is, and i'll tell you pretty much everyone has an idea of what he's about. maybe not specifically what he
was doing, but he is extremely well-known in bladen county political circles. now, as far as the people who were going out and physically collecting those ballots, i take them at their word when they tell me that they did not know what they were doing is illegal. one of them told me, you know, they're not involved with politics at all. she really just needed extra cash for christmas presents. >> yeah. >> and mccray dallas offered her $100 to drive around and pick up absentee ballots. bladen county is extremely rural. the average income is about 20 to $25,000. it was hit hard by hurricane florence. a lot of people may have taken jobs from mccray dallas to pick up a couple extra $75 or $100 a week to make ends meet. >> i want to reiterate, from what i've seen i do not blame these people at all. they seem to be telling the truth and did not know this was
illegal. mccray dallas is another story. what happens next now that subpoenas have been issued? >> well, we're waiting to see what hand ncsb has. of course the state board of elections has the authority to order a new election. and what's really interesting is, if the state board of elections orders a new election we go back to the same three candidates, mark harris, dan mccreedy and the libertarian who was running. if the u.s. house refuses to seat mark harris and a new election is called from u.s. house that's a special election. that means we have a primary and we do this all over again. >> that is very interesting. so the board calls new elections it's a rerun of the same candidates. if a new incoming democratic house refuses to seat harris, they view him has illegitimate, they can do that. thank you for making some time tonight. still to come, wisconsin
republicans voted today to strip incoming democrats of their power. one of those democrats who has just had his power stripped, joins me to talk about whether the fight's still over, ahead. plus, rudy giuliani versus the dark web. that's tonight's thing one, thing two next. harry's meeting clients... ...from far away. but they only see his wrinkles. if only harry used some... ...bounce, to dry. he would be a less wrinkly, winning guy.
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on twitter. the other day he was making a point that robert mueller was crooked or something and one thing led to another and suddenly he tweeted a hyperlink to the nonexistent website g-20.in. that's when a web designer from atlanta noticed the slipup and bought the domain for $5 and created this page, donald j. trump is a traitor to our country. four days later rudy was very upset. twitter allowed someone to invade my text with a disgusting anti-president message. the same thing, period no space, occurred later and it didn't happen. don't tell me they are not committed card carrying anti-trumpers, "time" magazine also may fit that description. fairness, please. that would be slightly more hilarious if rudy giuliani wasn't, in addition to being the president's attorney, also a white house adviser on cybersecurity. that's thing two in 60 seconds.
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brush like a pro. rudy giuliani has been making a living presenting himself as a cybersecurity expert, as a cybersecurity consulting firm called giuliani partners and even tapped as a celebrity spokesperson for products to protect you from the dark web. >> every american needs protection from the dark web. protect yourself and your family now. >> but it's just weird that the cybersecurity expert seen here defeating the dark web with his iphone seems so confused by cyber. his security analysis conspiracy theory that somebody had, quote, invaded his text on twitter when it was pretty clearly he had just fat fingered his tweet was met with universal mockery. sure, grandpa, you might want to have one of the kids explain it to you. another suggested, did you try unplugging it, then plugging it back in? maybe this is the perfect adviser to the guy totally confused about presidenting.
>> rudy is an expert on cybersecurity, it's important to him and to what he does. maybe i'll ask rudy to say a few words. >> thank you, very much, mr. president. first of all, congratulations on what is, in fact, a historic start of an administration. i've never seen so much done in so short of a period of time.
wisconsin republicans rammed through a transparently anti-democratic lame duck legislative measures explicitly designed to restrict what the incoming democratically elected democratic governor and incoming democratic attorney general can do when they take office. among other things, preventing them from carrying out campaign promises on health care and voter rights. joining me now is one of those incoming democrats, wisconsin attorney general josh caul. so what is your reaction to watching this play out in the wee hours of the morning when it's specifically targeted at what powers you will have when you occupy the office? >> well, first of all, thank you for having me, chris. you know, this is legislation that is clearly designed to undermine the results of the elections that we just had for governor and for attorney general in wisconsin. and the process through which this was passed was simply embarrassing. it was literally passed in the middle of the night and it was written behind closed doors.
it happened this last evening. and one of the central issues in the race for attorney general and the governor's race was whether wisconsin should withdraw from this lawsuit that's seeking to invalidate the affordable care act which, if it's successful, would eliminate protections for people with a preexisting condition. and the legislature has now taken the power to authorize from the governor and given it to itself. they've basically made the debate that we had over this issue in the campaign into a sham. it's really unfortunate. >> just to be clear, scott walker joined the suit, i guess was it the governor's office that decided to join the suit, not the attorney general? >> the ag was involved in filing this suit and scott walker authorized the ag's involvement in it. >> and so you and tony evers when you're running say both were on the same page, we want to get out of this lawsuit, if you elect me, we'll withdraw, a power they had until 4:00 a.m. this morning? >> that's exactly right.
and, you know, governor walker still hasn't signed this bill. so one of the things that we're still hoping will happen is that he'll decide not to move forward with signing this bill and, you know, undermining the results of an election that he just lost. if he does sign it it's likely it will end up in court. >> i want to talk about that in a second. first, respond to the assembly leader voss who was explicit about what he was up to here. i applaud him for not making a pre tens of process neutrality. >> we're going to have every opportunity to find common ground with governor elect evers. we have to work together. but i also know that the situation we are sitting in right now, if we do not pass these proposals, is that we are going to have a very liberal governor who is going to enact policies that are in direct contrast to what many of us believe in.
>> what do you think of that as an explanation? >> well, if robin voss wants to control what the governor does he should run for governor. tony eavers won the election for governor and now the legislature has put aside what has been happening in states acrosses the country for generations in our federal government, which is transferring the full powers of the office after an election. represen republicans have decided that they know better than the voters and are seeking to take power away from the governor elect and me. >> you said this will end up in court and people are saying, this is dirty pool and maximalism, what legal recourse is for you and the incoming governor? >> i think there's unfortunately likely to be multiple lawsuits that come from this. i mean, one of the issues is that, the legislate which you are has taken power that is pretty clearly executive in nature, like the ability to resolve lawsuits and has given the lawsuit to itself.
so, there's separation of power issues here among other things and one of the unfortunate results of this is, you know, you heard robin vos speak earlier how he wants to work together. i have made clear, governor elect evers has made clear that we want to work with the republicans in the legislature and solve problems that face wisconsin. like the opioid epidemic. what the legislature has done with the action, ensured that we are mired in litigation for a big part of litigation. i would rather focus on the problems that face wisconsin families much. >> josh kaul, you van -- you have a office in total, five square feet. i'm joking. to michigan, the republicans in the state house are trying to follow wisconsin's lead, and we will talk about it right after this.
meanwhile, republicans in michigan are right now, attempting to pull basically the same lame--duck stint that wisconsin republicans got away with across the lake. gop lawmakers in lansing are trying to stipulate power from the incoming governor, attorney general and secretary of state, talk more about what is going on in michigan, let's talk to debbie stabenow, what are the republicans doing in your state right now? >> thanks for having me and i will start by saying it's a complete insult to the people of michigan that voted for change.
they voted for a democratic governor and lieutenant govern, secretary of state, attorney general to make change happen and here is what the republicans are doing to be able to protect power. first of all, they are voting at moving bills to take away campaign finance oversight, from the secretary of state. our secretary of state, johnsson benson wrote the book on campaign finance and voter protection. people in michigan voted for ballot proposals to add more opportunities to vote. to protect the vote. republicans want to set up a commission, take away the authority for her to deal with campaign finance and bring the light of day on dark money. secondly, for the attorney general, they want to set up a way for the republicans in the legislature to have equal standing on lawsuits. so, when an attorney general brings lawsuits against the polluters to protect the water or healthcare to protect pre-existing conditions, they want as republicans to be able
to have equal standing to be able to bring a taxpayer lawsuit on the other side. >> can i stop you there? >> it's ridiculous. >> yeah, has that existed before or a new power? they are like, you guys have the attorney general office, so we have the legislature, so we will make the legislature another attorney general? >> -- exactly, they have had eight years of complete republican control, if they thought it was good policy, they could have changed this any time in eight years. but of course, it's not about that. it's a power grab. plain and simple. and they are trying to take away the will of the people of michigan, who voted for somebody that was standing up for them as an attorney general, who would stand up for them to protect their right to vote, a governor that would focus on the things that they care about, clean water, healthcare, fixing our infrastructure and the republicans, who lost those offices, are now trying to behind the scenes protect their special interests buddies by
changing the rules. >> they have not, unlike wisconsin that ran it through in the wee hours of the morning taken the vote yet, correct? >> they have come out of committee, some has moved through the senate and the house, and i think here's the real question. we have a govern wither after -- we have a governor after eight years is leaving office. will he leave as a statesman or a hack. he can veto it, and they cannot change it in the house. i hope everyone in michigan will stand and up speak loudly about the fact that 30 days after the election, people want to know their votes counted and that their voices were heard and that these guys are not going to through dirty tricks take away people's right to have an election that goes in the direction they want. >> there's one substantive thing, am i right there was a ballot initiative for tipped workers and restaurant workers that, that won, correct?
>> well, here's where it's a little strickeny. >> the legislature could adopt it on its own. and it chose to do so, now they are rolling back paid sick leave and raising the minimum wage. this is stunning and it's all about taking away the will of the people in michigan. who want a better life, want to be able to have, you know, a higher wage, and paid sick time. senator debbie stabinow, thank you for joining us. >> you are welcome.
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