tv Up With David Gura MSNBC December 9, 2018 5:00am-6:01am PST
you're in the business of helping people. we're in the business of helping you. business loans for eligible card members up to fifty thousand dollars, decided in as little as 60 seconds. the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it. this is up, everybody. i'm david gura. this morning brand new reporting in "the washington post" about the fall outs in the major developments from robert mueller's investigation. >> do you think the reason the president wasn't indicted is because he's president and that's it? >> i happen to believe the president could be indicted. >> just released what former fbi director james comey told lawmakers about special counsel behind closed doors.
>> the most important indication is you don't know anything about it until he files something in court, and that's the way it should be. >> president trump has had three chiefs of staff. in two years time. >> so john kelly will be leaving by the end of the year, at the end of the year. >> robert mueller's investigation gets closer to individual one. >> at some point if every single person you hired gets indicted the odds are you had something to do with it. i mean if all of santa's elves and all of santa's rine deer got busted by the feds you would not expect santa to tweet, totally clear for christmas. >> katey fang, an msnbc legal analyst, former fbi special agent. and let's start with those three filings from mueller's team and
the explosive allegation in one of the sentencing memos about michael cohen. the prosecutors have tied president trump to a federal crime. the government says the president directed his former lawyer to make two illegal payments during the 2016 campaign and that could put the president in substantial legal and political jeopardy. a big story today on the front page of "the washington post" is chock-full of new revelations how republicans are processing what is in those filings about payments, about outreach from trump associates to russia, about paul manafort. and the big take away are republicans are starting to feel anxious. has dramatically heightped the legal and political danger to donald trump's presidency robert costa and phil rucker, rite. and that they continue to consume the rest of the party as well. but despite all that republicans
on capitol hill are still inclined to standby trump and give him the benefit of the doubt for now at least. many people are beginning to ask themselves is this the beginning of the end for trump. well, the authors of this op-ed argue the justice department is unlikely to indict a sitting president. the question of impeachment is not off the table. >> you might call it the opening days of an impeachment. we're getting to that point now. >> we're now facing a situation where nadler's going to try to impeach president trump. we are facing an uphill battle. >> this is the most impeachable president ever, and the facts need to come out to show the american public he's committed impeachable offenses. >> some people are jumping to the conclusion this means impeachment, i haven't seen that yet. >> that's where we're going to start this morning, in the middle of that partisan divide.
one of the points they make is there's no plan how to deal with this in the white house. that's what republicans are particularly agitated about. isn't the plan always what it has been, to sow confusion? >> there's not been a plan for anything since they've taken office? it's reactionary and transactional. in terms of whether the president can be indicted i don't think this is settled issue at all. the president if he committed a felony in pursuit of winning job as president you're now incentivizing people to break the law. >> so i think it's time now we
need to talk. okay, so the sixth amendment to the constitution says every defendant has a right to confront and cross examine the accuser against him. you can cross examine your accuser at trial. there's a document called forfeiter by wrongdoing. let's assume i commit a crime and there's one witness to the crime. that witness goes to the police station, picks me out in a line-up and testifies to the grand jury he saw me commit a crime. i then threaten that witness such that he refuses to come to trial and testify against me. so i then stand up and say, hey, i have a right to confront my accuser, you can't try me. the supreme court has said, no, you can't benefit from all your wrongdoing. so all that stuff that would otherwise be here say in the grand jury or at the police station when that witness picks me out on a line-up, that all comes in an cross examine. because i can't threaten a
witness to keep him from testifying against me. we now have the president i think beyond a reasonable doubt colluding with michael cohen to commit campaign finance violations, to basically try to unfairly win the election. and we may have him colluding and conspiring and coordinating with the russians again to gain unfair advantage. i think it's incongruous, he can stand up, hold up the presidential shield and say even though i stole the presidency, i'm president so you can't bring criminal charges against me. if that's not the constitutional concept of forfeiter by wrongdoing, i don't know what is and i think we need to start talking about it. >> we have these two memos from the office of legal counsel about this issue, about whether a sitting president can be indicted. do you think it's settled at this point? how is all of this going to get hashed out? >> it's absolutely not settled,
and clinton's right. we don't have a decision we can turn to that says specifically we can indict a sitting president. and the only legal precedent that we have so that everybody understands is the following. a sitting president can respond subpoena, submission of documents, submission of tapes. a sitting president can testify to a grj about civil actions, civil things that have happened. but otherwise we do not have a definitive law on this. but i challenge -- i challenge our judicial system to make new law, to make this decision happen because this is how it always happens in our judicial system. something has to eventually go to the supreme court so that we can all turn to that decision and say here is the law. the problem is people are very worried about the fact that brett kavanaugh is currently sitting on our supreme court of the united states, and he has on
prior occasion indicated that he does not think a sitting president should have to face civil prosecution or a legitimate battle. let's put whoever against the people of america and let's see who wins that battle. >> we're talking about real things that could happen to this president, to those who were named in this document, and yet we see tweets from him indicating that all 12, he's cleared as a result of this. let's get back to what the republicans are thinking as they hear from his lawyer, rudy giuliani, again casting doubt on the investigation as a whole and trying to minimize in what we saw in those three documents on friday. >> acceptive reality is awesome.
that's what this president, that's the world he's creating for himself, that up is down, that left is right. that's really interesting that that's the world he lives in. and by the way, it's a world a lot of his supporters live in. not just people who voted for him, but his supporters, on capitol hill. i think what i see here is he's now bumped warren harding out from -- the fact you have this president that makes terrible judgment, the people he changes around him at a minimum. at best you can say he has awful judgment about the type of people he surrounds himself with. in terms of a political fallout from that, i think democrats now we have to think about, okay,
how do we move forward here? one of the things i said is i think people need to pursue this, the appropriate people that are in the legal structure democrats have in place. they need to pursue this. however, i do not think this needs to be the organizing political principle of the democratic party. i think democrats have to focus on the reasons that voters overwhelmingly chose them by 40 plus seats in the house. it's not because of russia unfortunately because people do not -- glen, i think you gave an awesome explanation. i think that's a little too -- for people to understand. they have to focus on issues that really move people right now. >> i want to ask you just about that point. there's change on the horizon here. you're going to have democrats
now in control of the house of representatives. what's your counsel about how democrats should proceed? >> yeah, i would like to see the supreme court make some decisions on what the rules are. this is unprecedented territory. >> so you're not in the camp saying we can move this over to the legislative branch. >> no, i've never had so many people get together and accomplish nothing on capitol hill. it's nonsense. i want to see the supreme court in particular do two things. one, can the president be indicted? special if they commit a felony in pursuit of the office. the other thing i want either some legislation about or decision about is collusion. can i have a foreign government help me win the office of president? yes or no? if the answer is no, then we need to put that as a law in the
book that probably starts on capitol hill, but i would challenge that again with the mueller investigation, put that forward. you are being indicted for the following actions. one, two, three, four, you've stolen materials that were taken by another country and you had people in your campaign that were using it. is that a crime or not or collusion or not? i want those two things really setup. what are we going to do in 2020? what are we going to do in 2024? you set the rules right now, that's the way it's setting right now and we don't want this. >> and the problem is going to be for the new house status to figure out a way to regulate kitchen tabletopics, health care, the economy, with these memos, with the sentencing memorandums that come out. how do you ignore the direct link with the president of the united states and still try to achieve some goal for the
entirety of the american people, not just democrats? >> the memo here involving michael flynn, it's clear again from bob costa and phil rucker's piece that's something that concerns a lot of republicans as well. you look at what's enumerated there and she sat down with the special counsel, 17, 19 times, that's a lot of times with federal prosecutors. yes, a lot of that was redacted, but help us understand how concerned folks should be what was not in to our eyes the memo about michael flynn? >> well, i think the administration should be more and more concerned not only based on what we have learned, at least what wasn't redacted from the flynn memo, but the cohen memos and the manafort memos. i mean, i think and cohen in particular, yes, flynn is a special kind of bad because as either the future or current national security advise, you're caught talking dirty on the phones about sanctions. i mean, that's as potentially
damaging to the country as it gets. when you look at the cohen memos and it talks about how he apparently was circulating, i think was the word that was used, circulating his false draft testimony before congress -- now, we don't yet know who he was circulating it to, he was conspiring with him to provide that false narrative about the budding moskow project, and then i think there's some things in the memos about how the executives from the corporation, ie, those are the trump children were also perhaps involved. >> you are watching jared kushner and don junior involved as well. >> ever tightening around the president and his family. and i think the next shoe is
about to drop. and i agree with katie, we as a country have to learn by our mistakes. we were fooled by nixon, fooled in part by clinton and here we are again with menloes saying we don't think it's a good idea to indict the president, well, we need to get that answered legally. >> the rest of you are going to stick around with me here on set. coming up, chief of staff john kelly on the outs. kelly spent 17 months on the job but his likely replacement could have even less time in the role. here how "saturday night live" broke the news. >> john kelly, his chief of staff is leaving the position at the end of the year because kelly requires expensive surgery to remove his palm from his face. ...i just got my ancestrydna results: 74% italian. and i found out that i'm from the big toe of that sexy italian boot!
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welcome back to up. looking back this morning on john kelly's tenure as chief of staff at the white house starting with this memorable moment. >> we will have no choice but to totally destroy north korea. >> of course it is hard to forget this memorable moment. >> what was the other side? >> well, john kelly now has a ticket to leave what he reportedly calls crazy town. president trump says his chief of staff will leave the white house by the end of the year. so add his name to it long list
of administration officials who have been forced out, quit, who resigned. john kelly's replacement is likely to be one nick ayers. joel, katie and clint are back with me. joining me now is the assistant managing editor at fortune magazine. john kelly comes onto the scene and makes the decision he's going to manage down and not manage up. is that the fatal flaw? >> it might have been but i don't know if that would have worked. think about he was brought in as sort of this elder statesman, widely respected military officer to establish order in probably the most chaotic white house or perhaps management situation in the annals of management history possible, and it just didn't work. and he was so overt about his dissatisfaction.
the palm in the face from "saturday night live" is hilarious, but that really says it all. i think it was fated from the start. i don't think there's any way it could have worked really. >> that's something we have told has driven john kelly through this, he took the job because of that. he was in the military for 30 plus years. how do you square that with what you've seen with the last year plus with john kelly? >> it's fascinating to watch. he's going to be replaced by somebody who's been alive a much shorter duration. so what are we really saying about this job? i think he probably did the best he could to get through it. and he's really trying to be a buffer on what he calls crazy town. how do i try to organize this in a remarkable way so i can do something productive? there are some things particularly on immigration i
think where they shared their views. what i think we're looking at now though that is particularly dangerous we're going into the hottest time of the administration and we have the youngest most inexperienced person in that job ever who's going to have no buffer and control on the staff. this is basically like a free-for-all we heard about when the administration first took off. is it the best thing for president trump who doesn't like to be told what to do and how to do things, sure it's great for me him? sure. but oit not good for the country. i think john kelly really struggled in that job pause he tried to organize it like he did his military career. he had a strong relationship with the departments, and that gives you some feeling the institutions were maybe working. but, man, i am nervous watching this go forward. >> how much do you think he was driven by duty than something
else? >> one, i think we can't underestimate how much this was a 2020 framed decision. nick ayers is a multi-millionaire, worked with the republican governments association, worked for sonny perdue's campaign i think it was two or three years ago. and so it makes sense to have somebody like that in that chief of staff role. i think clint is right, it's not somebody who is going to we a trusted senior statesman amongst staff. so i think that's one. two, i think john kelly is representative of the symbiotic relationship between the republic republican establishment and between the trump revolution. being there are so many people who have said you know what, i don't agree with president trump on everything but i'll be here to steer the ship in the right way or i'll be here to advise
him on, gary cohn, on financial policy or tim ryan or mitch mcconnell. i think there's a symbiotic relationship between this guy does not have a political agenda or political core so we can give him whatever we want him to do as long as he has a cover. i think again we have to focus on that as kelly exits this role. >> katie, is the legacy here immigration plain and simple? i remember talking to john kelly when he was the secretary of homeland security and he was kind of feeling through what the policies were going to be, but to clint's point it felt it was genuine. he had a hard line approach to immigration. it didn't seem like it was something supplanted from the president onto him. >> to the extent kelly was a surrogate and a supporter and made the genesis of some of the immigration policies we're seeing coming from this
administration, absolutely. i mean, it seems to me that kelly had a 17-month kidney stone, right? there was this painful process that was going on. but i think what's happening now with nick ayers going inb, and kelly coming out, i think trump's realizing he's got to stick with the family. so the fact nick ayers with a big jared kushner, ivanka trump, sticking to him, john kelly wasn't family. i think you're seeing people who are now coming around the president, the proverbial circling of the wagons because i do think there's a palpable sense of some kind of urgency and danger to what's happening with donald trump right now. >> this was seen as a coup because kelly really tried to limit their power. but i think it's important to note ayers is temporary.
>> a few month from now we could be talking about somebody else, it's the real strategy for 2020 and the names that have been floated is mnuchin, nick mulvaney, richard lighthizer and who knows who will come up next. >> who would want this job? it's a circus and silly and for what? other then to take a check and say oh, i was the chief of staff for 60 days before i got fired and a tweet went crazy but why would you want that job? >> don't underestimate people's desire to be close to power. >> a 36 multi-millionaire, you figure out how to make money. >> there's something so deliciously trumpy about this as well. up next bombshell revelations about the closed
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e-mails. for heavens sake a whole lot of hillary clinton's e-mails should bore you. >> hillary clinton and her e-mails is what house republicans wanted to ask about when they dragged now former fbi director james comey back to capitol hill. a 200 plus page transcript of the closed door testimony is now out. and here are the big take-aways. james comey says the russia probe began because four americans with ties to donald trump were potentially helping the kremlin. comey does not name them but he says candidate trump was not among those four. he tells lawmakers were leaking information to the media, and as the president continues to attack the russia investigation, james comey says, quote, there are not many things i would bet my life on. i would bet my life that bob mueller will do things the right way. i want to find out from you what stand out from this testimony. i think james comey could have
gone in and put in the book his loyalty. anything new here, anything stand out to you? >> just two things. one you mentioned four americans is what started the investigation in the summer of 2016. and i think the other thing that was pointed out in there is that peter struck was one of the people that help authored the october memo that may have changed the course of history. on the trump side it's all peter struck, well he helped write the actual memo which relaunched the investigation and could very well have brought trump into office. i think it's restating some facts against these narratives we've often time seen. other than that it's the same. i'm surprised they didn't talk about benghazi at some point. >> when he comes back for round two. >> yeah, this really does point to how the house as an investigative body, i pay no attention to it now. i think it's really lowered its
status over the past couple of years because being a check on governance because it seems like a circus. >> this is the last rows of the republican government power structure in place. also this follows a trend republicans are doing look at what's happening in wisconsin, republicans lost control of the statehouse so what are they doing? they're essentially hyperlocking all of the republican policy things they've put in place to keep them in place. they did it in north carolina with roy cooper a couple of years ago. they're trying to create a paper trail so they can go back and point to these things later on. it's a waist of time and taxpayers money and i don't think anything new is gained from it. i think director comey said it, and i think from his testimony you were right, he could have audio booked his own book. >> harry litman, joining us now to talk a bit about this story and also william bar, the president's picked to be the next attorney general. and james comey spoke to him
about the comments he gave on the heels of that hearing. he called him certainly fit for the job. harry, let me ask your reaction to what happened just a couple of days ago on capitol hill. >> well, i actually read them and comey is right, they were not just boring but oddly a recapitulation of 2016. you know, the partisan divide that you talked about at the top of the show, david, here seems like a partisan canyon. it's as if the congressional republicans are living in a completely parallel university and wanting to relentlessly change the subject. and the subject is really pressing now. i mean, the sort of burying your head in the sand and not sort of addressing the revelations that move things closer and closer to the president seems so out of
place at this time in our history. i mean democracies don't just shrug off the kind of conduct that trump now looks to have committed. and i think history won't treat them kindly for this two. year campaign of ignoring the facts in front of them and trying relentlessly to talk about hillary clinton. >> who is this for? all of the back and forth whether or not this was going to happen in open sessions, this went to court, james comey agreed to do this, there's a dogged fight to the end. to what end? >> to no end. to the end of 2018. i mean, it was so fruitless. comey won the legal battle. he wasn't forced to have to testify behind a closed session with no transparency. we got literally word by word verbatim from the transcript.
i think the take away really important about this hearing is that james comey made it perfectly clear he is not best friends with robert mueller. >> doesn't know the kids names. >> right, doesn't know the kids names, doesn't hang out with him. >> i mentioned william bar and he's brought to capitol hill for confirmations, learn more about him. what do you expect to be the principle focus here as we look at his biography, what he's written, the corpus of work he's done, how often do you expect senators are going to be asking about robert mueller during that confirmation hearing? >> every 30 seconds. but the principle focus i think will be his views on executive power, the extent to which he has possibly expressed support for investigation of hillary clinton in the past on the uranium deal and possibly has expressed some skepticism about wide ranging special counsel
investigations of the sort that mueller is arguably now engaged in. that misses the broad point, though, i think as i've tried to argue, barr is an institutionalist. he is the kind of person who understands and stands up for the doj initiatives, and you mentioned here nick ayers, and he has the kind of stature to pick up the phone and say, you know, do not try to monkey with us the way you've been trying to do the last two years. so while senators will understandably be concerned about particular views and portents of the mueller investigation, the broader point is an adult and an
institutionalist at the helm of doj and one who surely like comey starts with enormous respect for robert mueller who was the assistant attorney general for the criminal division when barr was the attorney general under bush 41. >> up early with us in los angeles harry litman, thank you very much. appreciate the time. up next shock on who the newest supporter is in the white house when it comes to the case of jamal khashoggi. your school. your job. your dreams. your problems. (indistinct shouting) but at the y, we create opportunities for everyone, no matter who you are or where you're from. for a better us, donate to your local y today. for a better us,
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i believe prince mohamed did know what was going on. >> i don't know see how there could be any doubt that mbs was directly involved. >> there is no way this murder happened without the consent and direction of mbs. >> i have zero question in my mind that the crown prince, mbs, ordered the killing, monitored the killing, knew exactly what was happening, planned it in advance. >> there's not a smoking gun, there's a smoking saw. >> so u.s. senators responding to their briefing with the cia director, gina haspel about the murder of jamal cusheeg. there's a stunning report with jared kushner, becoming his most important defender, according to the newspaper. he reportedly offered the crown
prince advice about how to weather the storm. he coupled that with new revelations about how the saudis spent years cultivating a relationship with jared kushner, that has led some to wonder what the risk. let me start with you, there is so much that's astonishing in this article, not the least of which they talk all the time. jared kushner's on whatsapp, texting, this is extraordinarily out of protocol how you would treat the leader of a foreign nation. >> and it's dumb. part of the reason why mb thought he could do this murder is he thought trump couldn't do anything about it. why does he think that? he thought he had a strong relationship with his son. he thought he could get away with it. this informal relationship which goes around institutions and he
helped elevate his profile there. this is the same guy who helped orchestrate a blockade of qatar, a place where we have a military base. we have the department of defense, department of state officials that helped to work through these relationships. this comes down to one thing, they've got money. everything is about transactions, it's about money. they don't believe anything, so they're easy to influence. all you have to do is offer up some sort of relationship, flash a bunch of pictures on a ritz-carlton in saudi arabia, and whoosh suddenly the relationship is changing and we're moving things around. this is not good for our country because it's not a trajectory for any sort of strategy. and it's based on relationship of two 30 somethings. >> i'm going to read one quotation from the article here. only a few months after mr. trump moved into the white house mr. kushner was inquiring about
the saudi royal succession process and whether the united states could influence it, raising fears among senior officials. texas on phone is one thing. but with the affairs of this country in the way this article presents it's extraordinary. >> it's shocking. and what'sologist shocking als knew jared kushner, his priorities, knew he had influence. and they knew that he was transactional. >> and he was also just incredibly dumb about this. the basic questions that he was asking about the kingdom indicated to them he was so pliable they could do -- >> exactly. and from the beginning he hosted the equivalent of lunch that would be the equivalent what we would host for a head of state before he was assumed to power.
and all of this in the early stages alert rex tillerson stepped in and said, no, this is not good. this makes us look too close to riyadh. and the pentagon and state department started to get concerned at that point which violates policy. this was from the beginning. and then saudi arabia comes in and says we're going to by hundreds of billions of arms, by the way which only a fraction of which have been paid, and we're going to host a historical celebration. don't forget, trump went there first and that was where the flowers and love and courtship all began. and that is what to clint's point, has set the stage. >> what has it got us now? we've got prince mohamed hiv fiving vladimir putin. he's abusing how manien rights,
killing journalists. brilliant strategy. really well thought through. >> all right, we'll come back in just a moment. up next, remember this? >> committed to the thorough review of registration and issues of federal elections and that's exactly what this administration is tasked with doing. >> we'll talk to a reporter there next. if you're 65 or older, even if you're healthy,
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if sit a legitimate connection. how loud is that there in southern north carolina? >> i think the chorus is growing day by day. wh i think the general consensus is that we are reaching the tipping point of this election being tainted. it does not matter if it will change in any way shape or form with irregularities. the board has the statutory authority if it is so great that it calls into question the overall election. >> i want to bring you into this
conversation. you have been watching all of this unfold and what the guys at the center of all of this is accused of doing is getting ballots and paying folks and all that. what does it say to you? why should they care about what they are seeing? >> my sense is for republicans it is a worse outcome for more people to vote. that is the bottom line with all of this stuff. we can talk about irregularities here. plain and simple republicans decided the more it is the worse it is for us. there has been over a decade when we know it gets longer. there has been a dedicated effort to suppress votes. it's not what happens on election day. it's how many people didn't show up. how many people were discouraged from voting? how many waited in line because they had to take their kid today
care or had to get back to work? it is in our interest to make it harder for people to vote. that outraged everybody. by the way, it is in north carolina. it's in north dakota. maybe not enough to swing the election decided the more people vote the worse it is for us. >> i don't want to blame you all. this happens. look at what happens after election day. there is a lot that needs to change as well. what does it say the process for reevaluating? >> it is not throwing up obstacles. it is illegal. it is illegal in north carolina to have somebody other than your relative take receipt of an absentee ballot. they paid people to go. so unless everybody in north carolina is one big family and
blood relative it's not happening and that is why, again, blame the lawyers but you need to lawyers. you need to make sure the laws are enforced and that's why we need to have a new election. >> you need residential style leadership to fix this. we are not getting it from a guy in the white house right now. i will see if they can do that. thank you for bravering the snow. okay. what are the words collusion and synergy have to do? get ready to synergize next. >> we need to syncronize and
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