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tv   The Beat With Ari Melber  MSNBC  January 31, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PST

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and the bank was never breached. we may never know for sure whether florida man is responsible here, but really, don't we already know. man, gotta give florida man, that is ingenuity credit. sometimes we think florida man is not so bright. at least that was creative. that is all for tonight. we'll be back tomorrow with more "mtp daily." "the beat" with ari melber is tunnelled and ready to go. >> good evening. we begin tonight with major news in the ongoing open collusion investigation and searches involving roger stone. bob mueller prosecutors now saying there is so much evidence in the case against stone, including years of communications, they want extra time beyond what is usually legally allowed before trial. now whether mueller's team prosecuted stone or hands off this case to other prosecutors, we don't know where it is going but i could tell from the new filings from mueller, they think it is going to be a long time. the mueller team calls the evidence they collected against stone voluminous and complex and
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hard drives with terabytes of information and fbi case reports, search warrant application results and including -- and this could be the mothership, apple and cloud and bank records and plus numerous physical devices, including cell phones and computers and hard drives and the communications are alleged to have gone back years. all of this is what mueller is telling the court. meanwhile stone tells reporters that he agreed they can't go to trial soon and while we're hear ug all kinds of complaints from republican about the stone raid and i'll get into that and racial disparities in the law. we know investigators were on the hunt for evidence. they say flat out they seized deere -- devices from his home and office to see what he knows. tomorrow he goes back to court for the first hearing since entering the not guilty plea. i want to get right to it with nick acerman, host of the
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majority report radio show and contributor and user of icloud and karen ill policy who dealt with the mueller team with george papadopoulos and you are closer than most. so i begin with you. what does it mean in plain english when mueller said i have so much evidence i need an exception to what is the federal law that you have to have a speedy trial. >> it is not terribly extraordinary in a complex white-collar case for the government to ask for an exclusion under the constitution, a criminal defendant is entitled to a speedy trial and the way that is codified in the law is 70 days. 70 days from the date of the arraignment, the government should take your case to trial. >> and most -- most defendants would spend those 70 days in prison. they don't want to sit there for too long. >> absolutely. now typically if you are the defense attorney and the government, you want to exclude time under the speedy trial clock. you want extra time to review the documents because you want
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the best defense possible. >> because you're worried about being outgunned. >> yeah. it would be a boss move in the defense foreigns for roger stone said put your money from your mouth is. you brought your case knowing you had 70 days and all of a sudden you can't ask for more time. unfortunately they are not in that position, there is too much discovery. >> and to your point, analysis fits with what stone said. he has been caught in many lies. we note that and when we report on. this but with regard to the evidence they have against him, which is significant, he said what you are saying. le's take a listen to the new roger stone. >> it said the evidence against you is voluminous and complex. does that scare you at all? >> my attorneys have agreed to that. it is so voluminous and complex that a speedy trial is literally impossible. i believe that over a two-year period, maybe even a two and a half year period, my e-mails, my text messages, my phone calls have been monitored.
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there is certainly nothing new. i have deleted nothing. i have erased nothing. i have over a million e-mails by my own count. >> what do you think of that reference to not erasing anything? >> well, we'll see if that is true. if he did the government likely knows it. this is a guy who quoted oscar wild, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. i think the reasonable probably he's consenting is he wants this to draw -- draw out and he likes being in the public eye and the question is whether the judge will issue a gag order and shut him up. >> and we'll have an eye on that for sure. and out of the people here, only one of you has deposed roger stone himself in a watergate -- probe. should we let the viewers call in on twitter. take a guess. it is nick ackerman. kidding. you and roger has been -- for a while and i mention you know him as an investigator and i mention
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in fairness that you are not his ally. you have been adversarial to him. and take a note of his ally, on msnbc saying they were looking for collusion evidence. >> what do you think they're looking for? >> according to the search warrant, information regarding wikileaks, guccifer, and any collusion, that sort of thing. >> what do you think of that. >> i think that is absolutely correct. they've got him dead to rights on witness tampering, false statements and lying to congressional committees. but what is key are two dates in that indictment. one is july 22nd, when e-mails that were stolen from the democratic national committee were released just prior to the democratic convention which put bernie sanders and hillary clinton at odds with the democratic national committee showing that they were favoring hillary clinton. the second one is october 7th when within an hour after the
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release of the hollywood access tape, a whole series of e-mails related to podesta, the campaign manager for hillary clinton, were released. so these were two very strategic releases that really would have required somebody inside of the campaign to really have strategized as to exactly what they were trying to do with these e-mails. and i am sure that what they suspect, if they don't have evidence already, is that roger stone was coordinating with the russians and with wikileaks to put out the right e-mails at the right time. >> and another mueller witness sat at this table, in week, and said roger was trying to do that. but no one knows if he pulled it off. does your spidey sense, your watergate and mueller spidey sense as known in legal circles, tell you they are getting close to that evidence or just don't have it. because you can't charge what you don't have, even if you don't have it. >> i think they have part of the evidence but i don't think they have the full evidence. and what they do have, which
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roger stone didn't realize is, he thought he was using what's app and another supposedly secure e-mail way of communicating with people, and it is quite clear from this indictment they knew precisely what he had at the time he was testifying before the house committee. >> this brings us to sam cedar. let me read to you what hammed to paul manafort, who like stone got into hot water because mueller's people said he was trying to tamper and obstruct. from plana for the, allegedly tried to hide his communications with potential witnesses usin n encrypted and what's app but prosecutors accessed the message via the icloud account. is that the potential hole for less tech savvy would-be defendants. >> it sounds like it could be. they seem to have had at least some of the information for a while.
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and when you have a guy like roger stone who is already probably been writing his memoir for decades, right, the idea that he's maybe taking screen grabs of some of his exchanges, sometimes those float up into your i-stream. you don't realize it and you don't know what the prosecutors have. but it looks like they had some parts of a conversation or some hints that there is some other thing that exists. they come in and they want to find the original hardware to see if they could piece those things together. >> what does it tell you that donald trump who has had skirmishing with the investigations and law won't even touch e-mail and has aides who are all over tech but don't seem to fully grasp it. >> i mean, i don't know that donald trump stayed away from things like e-mail just because he thought he was creating a paper trail. i think it is beyond his abilities maybe. and i think to a certain extent-look, technology that is introduced when you are older is
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always -- is difficult. >> hard for all of us. >> exactly. i can't follow what my daughter is doing on instagram right now. and i know i should be. >> i wonder about the icloud part of this because so much of this is about the cover-up and the obstruction and that is different from watergate. and nick, i'm sure you're familiar with the rapper fabulous, who said talk is cheap, free wi-fi. talk is cheap unless it creates free evidence for mueller. what do you think of the fact that today's the day we're being told about the terabytes and they have all of this icloud stuff. >> i think what they've got is they in realtime, they must have had a court order to intercept what roger stone was doing if realtime during the time he was testifying before congress. but what they don't have are a lot of other conversations. for example, he was communicating with guccifer 2.0 who was the first recipient of the stolen e-mails. the russian intelligence agent who first released a lot of the documents in june, july of 2016. so i think what they're trying
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to piece together is who else was involved in this. how was he communicating with them? who else were the people in the campaign that he was communicating with about that july 22nd dump? who he was communicating in the campaign about how they reacted to the hollywood access tape. that is what they're looking -- >> "access hollywood." >> yeah. because there are certain things you cannot get by doing an intercept. they are looking for other indicia, and other data they could not get offer a wire. >> which is fascinating given he was one of the subjects of interest, now we know a target because he's a defendant, who they never, according to public accounts, interviews. what do you think about donald trump saying last night, well, quote, i could have terminated the whole probe and i could have ended it and i chose to stay out of it. >> that is technically true. he is the commander-in-chief, head of the executive branch and the department of justice is within the executive branch. it is -- it would be completely against long-standing tradition
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where-in the president and the justice department stay in their own lanes while it is technically true, i think it would be politically suicide. >> and that is the point. at the end of the day, much of what we're talking about in regards to the president is going to be a political determination. and so it is really a question about what the republicans and the senate at this point, how much pressure they'll feel if there is a report that is released or some evidence that the president did something along the lines that are being alleged and so it -- we're talking about a political argument. so every calculation they're making at any given time out of the white house, at least from their perspective, is a political calculation. >> and i want to fit in a break. but nick, is it a good rule of thumb to say if you need to do something bad, you should do it through an encrypted app and see if they will find it or not do it. >> i think better just to not do it. but look at what roger stone said about why he couldn't take the fifth amendment. because he was connected with trump. this is history repeating itself
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again. that is what all of the head -- top people close to nixon did. they couldn't take the fifth because they felt it was politically impossible to do and they all wound up not only being convicted of obstruction of justice, but also perjury. >> well roger stone is one of the longest serving members of trump's kitchen cabinet who is now indicted. his tone has changed already and we're in week one. it is fascinating. nick ackerman and sam cedar and carolyn. i'll fact check the claim that the feds are being too rough on stone and we'll look at treatment of poor and people of color and my guest gelani cob and then a report on howard schultz, his views and what it means for his potential spoiler race. later bob mueller in his own words, his public statements and clues for how he is looking at the russia probe and ongoing meddling in the legal case itself. plus reports that trump's border agents now force feeding immigrants on a hunger strike at the i.c.e. detention center.
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an important story and i could tell you an attorney joins me exclusively for one of those detainees. i'm ari melber and you're watching "the beat" on msnbc. thc (burke) parking splat. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ be right back. with moderate to severe crohn's disease, i was there, just not always where i needed to be. is she alright? i hope so. so i talked to my doctor about humira. i learned humira is for people who still have symptoms of crohn's disease after trying other medications. and the majority of people on humira
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standard and demanding the fbi address whether stone was treated more harshly than similarly charged individuals. the available facts show that stone indicted on seven counts but free on bail is not facing discrimination. across the country, law enforcement commonly use hardball tactics in raised and searches and arrests and prosecutors often use the most harsh tactic getting defendants jailed before trial, to press them into pleaing. sitting in jail before trial leads to risking losing job and extra pressure and it could literally break that. that hardball works the most on the poor. because the bail system benefits the rich. so while the indicted former trump aides have seen bonds in the millions of dollars because of the seriousness of their charges. a higher sum than many defendants with lesser charges who face $10,000 bonds. many of those poor defendants are stuck in jail before trial. 370,000 people jailed before trial. because they can't afford bail. while stone and company have the
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money to get out. the number of ex trump aides jailed upon the first charges -- zero. none. in fact, one trump defendant, paul manafort, was later jailed but charged because of violated his bail. but none of them initially jailed on charges. and the racial disparity is stark. black defendants are being detained at a rate nearly five times higher than white defendants. so while hundreds of thousands of similarly presumed innocent defendants are jailed, because they can't make bail, roger stone is walking free. he's doing interviews. he's even thanking republicans for criticizing the force used by the fbi. >> i'm heartened by the fact that senator graham and the house republicans will get to the bottom of why this show of force was necessary. >> but those other republicans wrote and supported the very laws that authorize how the feds arrested stone. and they haven't been sympathetic to defendants and
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criminals. it is light compared to a double standard from donald trump who talked up, quote, unquote, tough and down right unconstitutional policing tactics against many unnamed suspects and other cases involving poor and minority defendants. this is a topic trump and stone are pushing tonight so it is worth seeing the record up close. >> when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in, rough. i said, please don't be too nice. >> they broke into the office of one of my personal attorneys, good man. and it is a disgraceful situation. >> don't hit their head and they've just killed somebody. don't hit their head. i said, you could take the hand away, okay. >> i always found paul manafort to be a decent man. to wake him up, perhaps his family was there, i think that is tough stuff. >> the laws are so horrendously stacked against us. made to protect the criminal and not the officers.
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>> he told the daily caller he's disappointed how the fbi treated roger stone and an arrest he'll think about asking the fbi to review. >> i'm joined by gelani cobb who writes about race and policing and civil rights. thank you for being here. what do you see in this new concern from these trump people? >> well, it is the disparity. when we talk about this disparity between how whites are treated and how blacks are treated, it is that encapsulation, it is that attitude. and so i've reported on this stuff. and i've been out and seen police jump out of cars and throw people in the middle of the night down -- face down, just on suspicion of marijuana possession. and suspicion based on geography. this person is in a neighborhood and that is why you have jumped out in the middle of the night and thrown this person down on the ground. >> you mentioned that -- just for context and we've covered those stories a lot. let's look at some of your reporting there in that
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frontline piece. let's take a look. >> don't touch me, bro. don't touch me. hold on. [ bleep ]. >> hold him. hold him. >> i'm not doing nothing. >> i swear to god -- >> all right, sir. >> stop, stop. >> i'm the other guy -- >> i didn't do nothing. >> just stop, sir. just stop. >> sir, you are not under arrest. just for your safety and our safety. >> yeah, that guy was walking home from a neighborhood bar. >> and you were there. >> yeah. just in his community. and so when we're talking about that, that kind of inkling of suspicion warrants that level of force but someone who may well have helped sub vert american democracy, who is certainly, at least in the eyes of the government and in the eyes of the indictment, someone who is believed to have lied to congress, offenses that carry a great deal more weight and implications of what they are --
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the ultimate outcome could be. you have people knock on your door and that is thought to be too harsh. no one laid on a hand on him. he was not face down on the pavement anywhere. but this is how policing is done in black and brown communities. and so it goes back to -- one of the things we thought about with the kavanaugh hearings, was the real offense is not that someone is being held accountable, it is that this particular person is being held accountable. that these rules were supposed to be suspended for individuals of his race, of his socioeconomic class and political connections and so on. so that is in some level the kind offin dig -- indignation we've seen throughout the trump presidency and you have to encapsulate it and that is what this is. >> do you think people realize the double standard. there is all kinds of discrimination and habits of mind and we've talked about this before. there is a lot of studies about
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unconscious bias. it is a bad thing but not always a conscious thing. is it that people are discovering a critique or concern about the very serious power of the criminal justice system because it is happening to people they identify with or in donald trump's case, his buddies. >> sure. and so it is hard to get inside someone's head and say this unconscious bias or a sense of personal entitlement with donald trump, if you are trying to unravel his psychology, you need a very long rope, a flashlight and good luck to you. you will be traveling down a very deep, dark cave. but i think that in the bigger sense, it is like the orange is the new black dynamic. the great thing about that show was that it took a waspy white blond woman and said this is what the war on drugs is. and for people -- and then slyly sub verted that and used it as a way to talk about the lives of black and brown women who had
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far fewer resources and far more bleak outcomes than she did. >> so what would you say directly to roger stone who is out on bail, unlike the 470,000 people i showed, many of whom are also presumed innocent but don't have the money to get out and while out on bail he's using that freedom to make these charges. >> i would say roger stone is my neighbor. he's a harlem resident. not my direct neighbor but in the same community. talk to people in harlem about policing. and talk to people in that community -- walk down the street and ask people about what they're interactions with law enforcement has been. and then you get a true gage of what happened to you and where it fits on the spectrum of excessive force. >> i think that is fair advice. and fair advice for all of us -- for people critical of the mueller probe. if it looks unfair that prosecutors have so much power or you have this concern that people are being treated before trial, let's figure it out.
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something else -- i would love to have you back to talk about the second largest jail in america is rikers, for people accused of crimes, not convicted. so if this shines a light on it -- through the trump psyche. >> it is spee-lunging. going into a deep cave. >> gelani cobb a perfect voice for this, an expert. thank you. >> up ahead, robert mueller warning about meddle from russia. but in 30 seconds, what howard schultz actually stands for. t id schultz actually stands for. nt e the experts at rootmetrics say is number one in the nation? sure, they probably know what they're talking about. or the one that j.d. power says is highest in network quality by people who use it every day? this is a tough one. well, not really, because verizon won both. so you don't even have to choose. why didn't you just lead with that? it's like a fun thing. (vo) chosen by experts. chosen by you. get 50 million songs now with apple music included, on us. on both ios and android.
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it's the unlimited plan you need on the network you deserve. how much does an 18 ounce box of cheerios box. >> an 18 ounce box of cheerios. >> yes. >> that is billionaire starbucks founder howard schultz, igniting debates this week on economic populism or how to beat trump and for all of the buzz there hasn't been a ton of reporting on what he stood for in all of his works since launching starbucks. but skrutd inning his record is crucial to determining if he's a benign billionaire or spoiler billionaire or something that must be exposed long before 2020, a billionaire who has one set of rules for his company and another set of rules for everyone else. now schultz is a business and messaging guru. he turned basically what started out as four seattle coffee shops
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into a $80 billion corporation and along the way he talks a big game about a company that he said stands for more than just serving up drinks and profits. >> we have an obligation and a responsibility as a company to add value to humanity. >> i love starbucks coffee company almost as much as i love my family. the love and humanity is also about creating a value system in which the company stands for something. >> we're not in the business of filling bellies. we're in the business of filling souls. >> you might say, they are full of crap and, you know, this is how we feel. we love this company. >> that was the talk. now what was the record? let's be clear. in some ways starbucks has strived for something more than the bare minimum retail practices of grueling corporations like walmart. starbucks is providing health care to employees since 1988 and the lowest wage it pays is about $10 an hour.
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schultz suggests workers are better off in starbucks america than the rest of corporate america, an argument for him to run a company but what about running america. well schultz hasn't supported higher wages for all americans just for his employees to make his company competitive. in fact, this is important, that is the whole issue in his home state back in 2014 because this ceo who had been talking up raising wages suddenly opposed the government raising wages as policy. be it the government of seattle, or the federal government. >> i was in agreement at minimum wage at the state level should go up across the country. it should not be a federal mandate. i was not a supporter of the seattle city council going to $15 an hour. i think there will be unintended consequences for small businesses at that level. >> on college tuition, you could see the same pattern. starbucks america versus howard
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schultz mesh. consider the company touts how they cover college tuition for full or part-time employees who don't have a four-year degree and they'll have over 2,000 students graduating by 2018. that seems to be a good thing. but what about the government subsidizing college tuition for people who don't happen to work at starbucks? schultz said we can't afford it. >> no, i'm not a democrat. i don't affiliate myself with the democratic party who is so far left who wants the government to take over health care, which we cannot afford, the government to give free college to everybody and the government to give everyone a job which basically is $40 trillion on the balance sheet of $21.5 trillion. we can't afford it. >> when a politician says we can't afford something they are telling you that thing is not their priority. this is a nonideological comparison and some want to spend some in college or military and some on a wall and health care. and howard schultz ran a company
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that decided they could afford college and health care for some of the employees. good for them. and now he's touting that experience as the basis for why he should run the whole country but without those kind of benefits. as a talented messenger schultz still implies the values he took to starbucks will benefit the american people. >> i've walked in their shoes. i'm on both sides of the equation. i'm somebody who was successful and somebody who came from the projects and i understand the american people. >> howard schultz has lived an american business and it is good for business and the people who work for his business. does that mean he understands the american people in well he's never served in public service or government. he's never voted much alongside them. that is from the majority of recent elections. but he is exploring whether voters should promote him to run the company -- excuse me, i should say should run the country because he ran the company. and this, i think, raises big questions.
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would schultz hire someone to run starbucks if they've never worked in business? running the country is even harder. and can starbucks actually be -- this is really big. can starbucks be the basis for this potential schultz candidacy when he is now running against policies backing the things that starbucks provided its own employees from those claiming living wages to the health care to the occasional tuition. many right now you've heard are slamming schultz for a superficial spoilerism that could re-elect trump. but there is another question also facing his candidacy and it is substantive. if he had such a grand, well-funded vision for the social impact of a for-profit company with these values and the education and the health care they tout, why is his vision for american government so much less ambitious? >> the role and responsibility
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of a for-profit public company can't just be about making money. it has to be about giving back and it has to be about achieving a balance between profit and social impact. >> and the government to give everybody a job, which is $40 trillion on the balance sheet of $21.5 trillion. we can't afford it. afford it . and then, more jobs began to appear. these techs in a lab. this builder in a hardhat... ...the welders and electricians who do all of that. the diner staffed up 'cause they all needed lunch. teachers... doctors... jobs grew a bunch. what started with one job spread all around. because each job in energy creates many more in this town. energy lives here. heartburn and gas? ♪ fight both fast tums chewy bites with gas relief all in one relief of heartburn and gas ♪ ♪ tum tum tum tums tums chewy bites with gas relief
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i want to talk about what bob mueller thinks and knows. we got this rare glimpse today into his russia probe revealing what he and his investigators seized in that roger stone raid. they described complex and voluminous materials and we don't hear a lot from mueller about what he's doing while he's doing it. you know there is no leaks. he hasn't done interview since the appointment. he speaks to the actions. there was another new revelation that is a type of action. mueller filing this court action saying that russian hackers were using his discovery to run a disinformation campaign on social media and tonight we have more than just those things that have been breaking. i have something to show you
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about this whole issue of the way the russians continue in ways big and sometimes a little small to try to abuse and exploit social media and cyber. what we've done here, that i'm about to show you and we're kind of excited about it, is we combed through decades of things that mueller has said and done in various forums, governmental, investigative, journalistic that give clues into his thinking as he continues to play out this complex situation. what he does behind the scenes, and what he thinks of russia and cyber crimes have been on his radar, he said, for over a decade. >> today we are part of a never-ending news cycle, one that spans the globe. and when a story is filed, that one story posted on the internet may be picked up around the world. and unfortunately criminals and terrorists are using the same technology to their advantage. i think we all understand there
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are a number of countries out there that want to steal our secrets, russia, iran and china. >> name checking, russia in the criminals and terrorists, two different ways to abuse american law, to try to take internet technology, to take business secrets perhaps or, as we've seen, disrupt our actual process. we also found footage of what was then former fbi director mueller talking about russian spies trying to penetrate u.s. institutions. >> the counterintelligence threat to the united states continues to persist as we saw with the recent arrest of a network of russian spies, foreign adversaries do not rely exclusively on such traditional agent networks. they increasingly employ none traditional collectors such as students, visiting businessman and scientists to target and penetrate the united states institutions. >> he speaks in a careful way but the nontraditional collectors is the idea that the
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russians would send people to trick or fool or take advantage of americans. that is some carter page said happened to him and he didn't realize they were spies at the time. the overall translation, mueller knows how these type of russian plots work and he's been focused on the cyber warfare for decades. >> the increase of cyber as a mechanism for conducting the internet mechanism for conducted all sorts of crimes. but also it being a highway to extracting our most sensitive secrets. >> cyber criminal work on our networks stealing information for sale to the highest bidder and computer intrusions and network attacks are becoming more common place, more dangerous and more sophisticated. >> we live in a time of diverse and persistent threats from terrorists, spies and cyber criminals. cyber criminal have become increasingly adept at exploiting weaknesses in our computer networks. i believe the cyber threat may well eclipse the terrorist threat in years to come.
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>> wow! we don't know if rod rosenstein knew exactly how all over this stuff was, but that wasn't a popular thing to say cyber could be worse than terror, than 9/11. now mule ser special counsel and what is he doing? he's investigating the russian hacking of dnc and the release of the e-mails which flooded every social media platform with what turned to be a lot of information and disinformation. so here is mueller talking about a strategy of finding those threats and how you deal with them. >> hockey great wayne gretzky once asked how he consistently manages to be on the right place on the ice at the right time and he said that while some players skatd to where the puck has been, he skates to where the puck will be. and the same is true for those of us in the fbi. we need to know where the threat is moving, and we need to get there first. >> that is what he said he did
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this week because the new filing shows they were watching wherever the hockey puck was headed and the russians trying to misuse our legal system with those cyber tricks. now mueller has 37 indictments or guilty pleas so far. some say, well, it is not fast enough. last night the president, quote, i think after two years it certainly should be wrapping up. but mueller has shown his view of cyber that he was so uniquely prepared for has never had artificial deadlines. he said he focuses on getting to the bottom of it. >> targeted intelligence gathering takes time, requires patience, precision, and dedication. it is a labor intensive process that often does not provide a complete picture quickly but is the core of the understanding -- the core of understanding the threats to the homeland. >> i will pull no punches in terms of where that investigation would lead.
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and we would go down any path that would lead to evidence on individuals, organizations or otherwise. >> that is bob mueller speaking under oath, by the way, about pulling no punches, going down any path, six years ago describing his investigative approach. today because of the nature of the special counsel role unlike being an fbi director, he's not testifying in realtime. and while trump continues to dial up the attacks on mueller and now roger stone is impugning his fbi agents, the real question and the big question is whether bob mueller is trying to oversee something that wherever it goes and wherever it ends, it will match what he has long said is his core obligation as a constitutional officer of the united states. he said it is all about integrity. >> if you are not honest, your reputation will suffer and once lost a good reputation can never be regained. as the saying goes, if you have
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integrity, nothing else matters and if you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. >> we welcome malcolm nance and the author of "the plot to destroy democracy." what runs through your mind as you see some of bob mueller past warnings and analysis of this given that in the past two years we hear nothing from him? >> well. >> i think it is brilliant that you put that display of his quotes together. because what it shows you is, and this is for people who certainly over the last couple of years have been feeling disheartened because they haven't seen the speed that robert mueller and the special counsel have been working with. but if you look at the prosecutions that he's done, which are all based on this cyber warfare disinformation operation, he has been wildly successful and he aent even -- and he hasn't even gotten to the bottom of then conspire conspiracy as it exists. robert mueller knows what he's
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doing. he has been as director of the fbi for three presidents, he has already known, always been at the cutting-edge of how our opponents have been coming at this nation, particularly using counter intelligence. >> and it is fascinating because you mentioning counterintelligence and the legal side gets a lot of attention and it is the part we can see more of because people do get indicted and go to court. the counter intel side necessarily is not as visible and yet as you say, as fbi director, this is a person with the perfect seeming diagram overlap between the two. let me play for of what we pulled up because he talked about how at first it is hard to know at cyber who is behind what. take a look. >> at the outset of an attack, you do not know whether it is a foreign country, foreign government, somebody affiliated with a foreign government, a group of hackers, or the high school student across the way.
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>> how does that apply? >> well, it is another good example of how he is very aware and has been very aware of how these operations play out. at the beginning of this, you recall the very first debate everyone was having when the media was pouring all over hillary clinton's e-mails and john podesta e-mails is that many people were ignoring what was the vector on this attack? what was the point of origin? why would we assume it came from russia? what would be the benefit for russia and it took a couple of months for people to understand it was a direct attack on the united states electoral process in order to engineer an outcome putting one candidate over the other. if robert mueller operating philosophy is correct, that you don't know who it is in the initial phase of the attack, but you have to determine that
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quickly. that was already known by the time the special counsel had already -- had started his operations. so he would sort of jump ahead by a light year on the investigative process which is why he unspooled very quickly these administration people who were having contact with foreign intelligence officers, foreign diplomats, foreign contacts in the old-school counterintelligence operation, like you played in one clip where he said, people that you call nontraditional agents and assets would make contact with american citizens and then manipulate them. this campaign from the very beginning, this investigation has always been a spy hunt and always been people associated with foreign intelligence agencies and governments and how they infiltrated the united states government. the major component is cyber but also a hybrid as you said earlier, going back to those traditional spy craft methods
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which obviously have made headway. >> very interesting stuff. malcolm nance, thanks for being here. >> my pleasure. coming up, a new report on trump border agents who say they've been ordered to force feed detained immigrants who are on a hunger strike. a lawyer for one of the very detainees joins me next. uh-oh! guess what day it is?? guess what day it is! huh...anybody? julie! hey... guess what day it is?? ah come on, i know you can hear me. mike mike mike...mike what day is it mike? ha ha! leslie, guess what today is? it's hump day. whoot whoot! ronny, how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? i'd say happier than a camel on wednesday. hump day!!!! yay!! get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. each day justin at work... walk. and after work. he does it all with dr. scholl's. only dr. scholl's has massaging gel insoles that provide all-day comfort.
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i will tell you a little
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secret, i.c.e. is rougher and tougher. they're tough people. these are tough people. >> donald trump says it's good that i.c.e. is, quote, tough but some agents have been ordered to use tactics that have been associated with human rights abuses in got. united states border agents are reported to have force fed six men who are on a hunger strike. relatives say they started the hunger strike to protest verbal abuse and deportation by the guards. this occurred at the i.c.e. facility in el paso, force feeding a controversial practice opposed by humanitarian groups. the agency says the procedure involves a medical expert wind ago tube around their finger, shoving it into a patient's nose, noting that itself can be very painful, detainees typically strapped into chairs. we'll show you, this is one example that has been used on terror suspects at guantanamo bay. many say the procedure is
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traumatic. i'm joined by ruby carr who is an attorney representing one of the people on a hunger strike. i should mention her client she says is being force fed and hasn't heaten for three weeks. what is your view of this congress that's being reported by the a.p. and what is the hunger strike designed to achieve? >> thank you. the hunger strike started after the individual saw some discrimination against them, a lot of racism against them. so the detention center they have been in, there are detainees from other countries as well as -- and the other nationality individuals have been granted bonds or they have much more access to their due process than these individuals from india.
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they are voicing their opinions because they are not aware of what their rights are and most time they get orders of removal because they didn't understand the process and judges give them the final deportation orders on the first hearings. >> so they're trying to use a type of peaceful protest to draw attention to what they see as unfair here. i have to ask you about i.c.e. says. they say these detainees are being hydrated and fed, quote, non-consensually under court orders and defenders argue that i.c.e. and other u.s. authorities are criticized if they have deaths in custody so they're taking these measures when individuals are, i guess, taking actions that could lead to health risks or otherwise. so what is your response to that? >> first of all, they're being force fed. force feeding is a violation of
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a basic human right. the individual has a full right to say they're willing to be fed, they're not willing to be fed and this i.c.e. statement that they are using as a precaution to prevent any death is a complete false statement to cover up the discrimination that has been going on in the detention center. a lot of these detainees are not only force fed but they're psychologically tortured. just imagine an individual coming from another country to use this country as a safe haven and here the laws of the country are not even protecting them. in writing we have it, but these i.c.e. agents or immigration -- they are not provided with that full access to their due process. so it's a peaceful hunger strike. they just want their voices
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heard because a lot of them are going to end up dead if they are turned back and while on the strike the i.c.e. agents are not hesitating to threaten them. they're telling them we're going to throw you away in solitary confinement ands where the humanity? >> where is the humanity i think is a point to put out there to the trump administration's use of i.c.e. and, again, to what many of your clients facing serious hardship are trying to do which is get their concerns out which is why we wanted to hear from you. thank you for coming on "the beat." >> thank you. >> a difficult and important topic. i'm going to fit in a break. we have one more thing to tell you when we come back. one more l you when we come back.
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tomorrow on "the beat" we have jill wine backs for fall back friday. stay tuned. hope you join it. "hardball" is up next. can trump stand the dos? sorry, can he stand the truth? let's play hard ball. good evening, president trump is going to war with the country's intel chiefs refusing to back his own director of national intelligence or the cia director. >> do you have confidence in gina haspel or dan coats to ge


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