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tv   The Rachel Maddow Show  MSNBC  February 1, 2019 9:00pm-10:00pm PST

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>> rachel has the night off. we've had a very busy news day that has now turned into a very busy news night with a lot oh cover. there's donald trump pulling the u.s. out of a major reagan-era arms treaty with russia and the rather odd statement the white house put out about it. we will bring you the latest news from the russia investigation, including trump adviser roger stone back in court today. and the 2020 field got even bigger today when senator cory booker announced that he is running for president and made that announcement on the first day of black history month. but we begin with the news still breaking out of virginia tonight, where the democratic governor ralph northam is facing growing calls to resign after a
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yearbook photo showing some truly offensive content surfaced. this page from a yearbook belonging to northam first surfaced on a right-wing news site but very quickly made its way to the mainstream press. northam was a pediatric neurologist before he was a politician. in 1984 when ralph northam was 25 years old. it shows northam and a friend, one dressed in blackface, the other dressed as a member of the ku klux klan. the photo was posted late this afternoon on a right-wing website called big league politics. it's part news source, part political operation. the guys who run the site used to run roy moore's senate campaign. after they posted the photo, it was quickly verified by the mainstream press. "the washington post" and "the virginian pilot" were the first news organizations to authenticate the yearbook. the medical school says, yes, this really is the 1984 yearbook, though i should tell
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you we still don't know which person in this photo is northam and which is his friend. whether he's the person in blackface or dressed up like he's in the kkk because the governor has not said. governor northam released this statement tonight, first in print and then later on video. >> my fellow virginians, earlier today i released a statement apologizing for behavior in my past that falls far short of the standard you set for me when you elected me to be your governor. i believe you deserve to hear directly from me. that photo and the racist and offensive attitudes it represents does not reflect that person i am today or the way that i have conducted myself as a soldier, a doctor and a public servant. i am deeply sorry. i cannot change the decisions i made, nor can i undo the harm my behavior caused then and today.
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but i accept responsibility for my past actions and i am ready to do the hard work of regaining your trust. i have spent the past year as your governor fighting for a virginia that works better for all people. i am committed to continuing that fight through the remainder of my term and living up to the expectations you set for me when you elected me to serve. thank you. >> that's the virginia governor tonight. he amended his earlier printed statement for that extraordinary statement you just saw on video, saying clearly there he does intend to serve out his term, so apparently he does not intend to step down. governor northam released that video amid growing calls for his resignation and questions whether this governorship can survive. shortly after the news broke, the republican party in virginia called for the governor to resign. unforgiveable given his statements on the right to life coupled with the most recent
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revelations. he has lost the moral authority to continue to govern and should resign immediately, unquote. this virginia story is also reverberating at the national level. the democratic presidential primary kicked into another gear this week and the contenders are beginning to weigh in. democratic candidate julian castro, the former housing secretary and former mayor of san antonio, posted this just after 7:00 p.m., quote, it doesn't matter if he is a republican or a democrat, this behavior was racist and unconscionable. governor northam should resign. that was followed by senator kamala harris of california who announced her candidacy on martin luther king day. quote, leaders are called to a higher standard and the stain of racism should have no place in the halls of government. the governor of virginia should step aside so the public can heal and move forward together. we'll be watching tonight for more of this national reaction and there is lots of it. at the state level, as you can imagine, the debate is also heating up.
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the virginia legislative black caucus issued a statement condemning the photo without recommending what the governor should do. quote, we are still processing what we have seen about the governor but unequivocally say that what has been revealed is disgusting, reprehensible and offensive. we feel complete betrayal. the legacy of slavery, racism and jim crow has been an albatross around the necks of african-americans for over 400 years. these pictures rip off the scabs of an excruciately painful history and are a reminder of this nation's sins. the democratic leader in the virginia state senate expressed support for governor northam tonight, saying in part that while the photo is, quote, very poor taste, i would think no one in the general assembly who would like their college conduct examined. i would hate to have to go back and examine my two years in the army. trust me, i was 18 years old and i was a handful, okay?
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he said that governor northam's life since that picture has been the opposite of what you see in that yearbook. quote, it's been a life of helping people and many times for free. a very different take tonight from the newspaper in virginia's capital city. the richmond times dispatch has just published an editorial call for governor northam to step down. it is the revolution of a photo from his medical school yearbook page showing a man in blackface standing next to someone dressed in ku klux klan robes. we all act foolishly in our youth, but a college graduate studying to be a physician in a state with virginia's troubled racial history should know better than to reduce that history to a callous joke. it does not erase northam's service in the military or his compassion as a physician. it does, however, strongly suggest that he should for the good of virginia step down from its highest office and allow lieutenant governor justin fairfax to succeed him.
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that brings us to the democrat who would take over if governor northam did resign. that would be virginia's lieutenant governor justin fairfax. it would be lieutenant governor justin fairfax to serve out his term and eligible to run for a full term in 2021. it should be noted there have just been two african-american governors in the history of the united states. justin fairfax would become the third. that fact and the potential history to be made cannot be helpful to northam's bid to hang on. this story is developing quickly tonight as reactions continue pouring in. the naacp has joined in the call for governor northam to resign. republican senator tim scott of south carolina condemned the photo and said the people of virginia will make their voices heard. meanwhile, amid the calls for northam's resignation over a photo in his medical school yearbook, since the governor apologized the first time in
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print and then without -- and then in video without saying which of the two people he was, a yearbook from his college years at the virginia military institute has also hit the interwebs, showing what appear to be two nicknames under his real name. now, we've reached out to the governor tonight for comment. we have not yet heard back. like i said, lots and lots and lots of rolling developments. joining us now are larry sabato, director of the university of virginia for politics. and careen jean-pierre. larry, i want to go to you first. two things. one, are you surprised that governor northam has come out on video saying that he intends to stay on? and can he hang on? >> well, not really. you know, most elected officials do try and hang on until there is no other possibility. that's been true in our history. you know, the me too movement changed that for awhile, but this is a very different
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circumstance. and we don't know for sure that he will be forced out, but i can tell you the people i've talked to tonight both national and state were unanimous, many of them democrats, were unanimous that he could not survive this because if he did he would be hobbled for the remaining three years of his term and not be of use to his party. there is a legislative election for all 140 states in the legislature coming up this november. >> and not only that, but there is also a major race obviously coming up in 2020 in which democrats hope to carry virginia, you know, not that virginia is necessarily less blueish purple than it was before, but i wonder if northam is getting pressure both because virginia's so important to the 2020 campaigns and also because justin fairfax is not a republican. he's an african-american who would make history if he became the governor and might be a better look in terms of the 2020 picture. is that putting more pressure on him? >> well, joy, that's an
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interesting way to put it, good way to put it. look, you are too young, but those who are older like me remember that nixon hung on as long as he did because he had spiro agnew. he had an insurance policy in his vice president. well, ralph northam is much less lucky. he doesn't have an insurance policy because justin fairfax is a very intelligent able guy who would make a good governor. he is african-american, which would help to heal the wounds caused by this terrible incident, which has floored all of us, by the way, who know ralph northam. i could not have imagined that this could have been a part of his past, but there you go. so, yeah, i think justin fairfax makes it easier for those who want to call on northam to step aside. to would make it easier for northam to step aside if he decides to resign because a democrat will succeed him and an african-american. i have to put in a word for my
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state. virginia's taken a lot of knocks and rightly so over the years, but we would be the only state with two african-american governors in our history. doug wilder from 1990 to 1994 and justin fairfax. who would have ever believed virginia might have provided two african-american governors? >> yeah, indeed there have only been three in the entire country, i think we should note that massachusetts had the third. that's in the entire 241-year history of the country as an official entity. let me go to you karine, because the context in which this is happening, the things building up. whether it's charlottesville that was started a confligation over the statue of robert e. lee. you recently had justin fairfax refuse and stand down, the head of the state senate, refused to preside over it while a commemoration which is done every year for robert e. lee, he refused to participate in that. so he's made a statement on that. of course in florida, i think he
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was secretary of state for like a day, secretary of state had to resign after blackface pictures of him surfaced where he was mocking katrina victims. does all of that, you know, all of that that surrounds this make it harder and harder for northam to hang on? >> absolutely. i believe ralph northam needs to resign tonight. you're talking about two states, florida and virginia, joy, who have a dark history of racism, as we know. it came -- it's -- it came in full view, especially with charlottesville in the fight with the robert e. lee statues and the other white supremacy -- supremist statues as well. here's the thing, joy, today we watched the second prominent african-american presidential candidate jump into the race on the first day of the black history month. days ago on martin luther king day, we watched the first prominent african-american jump into the presidential race in this cycle. we are in a different time and
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this is not -- in many ways this isn't about politics, it's about what we saw -- these pictures with ralph northam when he was 25 years old in 1984 is incredibly disturbing, it's shameful, it's horrific, because one of the things i really agree with with the virginia legislative black caucus, the statement they put out, is that it is a scab, it is a reminder of the racism, the slavery, jim crow, this country's original sin, and that's why ralph northam cannot make it through the weekend. i do not believe that is going to happen. and let's not forget, one of the constituencies that got him into office in november 2017 was the high turnout with black voters. can you imagine the betrayal that you possibly may feel as a virginia voter, black voter who went out in november 2017 to vote for him? so i just don't see it. i don't see how he can last. not only that, it's just what's right and what's wrong.
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and it is about racism and it is about making the right choice. he needs to resign. he cannot be taken seriously anymore. and it's just the right thing to do. >> does it matter in your view, karine, very quickly that the origins of it came from this site that is obviously hunting for dirt, you know, that is coming from the world of roy moore. does that matter? >> you know, clearly he -- it was some intense opposition research and he was targeted. absolutely. they found something. they put it out there. but he admitted to it. he said, yes, that's him. he doesn't tell us which one it is, but it's just problematic. >> larry sabato, just to go really quickly. you've had senator mark warner come out, his statement -- the virginia senator. this is deeply shocking. the governor must now listen to the people in communities he's hurt and carefully consider what comes next. not an outright call to resign.
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tim kaine, the vice presidential candidate in the preceding presidential cycle saying this racist photo from governor northam's 1984 yearbook is horrible. centuries of racism have already left an open wound. i hope the governor's career has always man northwested -- now takes the time to listen to those he has hurt and reflect on how to move forward. not direct calls for him to resign. i wonder who the state becomes the deciding factor. who in the state has the pull in in fact the party decides its time no northam to go. is it terry mcauliffe? who has the sway that could potentially force him out? >> well, you were right to mention terry mcauliffe, the immediate past governor. northam was his past governor so he might have something to say about it. warner and kaine left themselves open there. they can come back with a second statement. i also know of a very senior well-known african-american elected official in virginia, i
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don't want to give his name because he can make his own announcement, but he's going to call for the governor's resignation and people will know who he is right away. so, look, i just think things look dark for northam. maybe he can muddle through but it means his governorship is in shambles, and, frankly, he's going to be a drag on his party for the remaining three years of his term. >> i wonder if this causes some reflection, larry, in the commemoration of things like robert e. lee because these things are still going on in the state of virginia, despite it being seen as maybe one of the last new south states. >> yeah, well, you've hit a nerve with me. of course, i'm from charlottesville. if i had my way, they'd all be gone. i'm shocked that -- i'm not shocked that the virginia general assembly has done absolutely nothing about allowing at least local choice do removing these statues. and i have to say, again, not defending northam at all. what he did was horrible. but he was terrific on
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charlottesville, as was mcauliffe and others. so you have to look at the whole record, but i have a hard time getting that image out of my head. it's just so terrible. and that was the mid-'80s, joy. >> yeah. >> that wasn't the '50s with massive resistance. that was the mid-'80s. there is no excuse for it. >> last one to you, karine jean-pierre. let's talk a little bit -- it seems early to be jumping into how this affects 2020, but you've already had two of the announced candidates come out and make statements. do you expect more, cory booker i don't believe has made a statement yet, but does this become an issue among the 2020 candidates where weighing in on northam is important? i mean, this is a very important 2020 state. >> yeah, it is absolutely important. look, we have a diverse -- incredibly diverse 2020 primary field. we have a latino. we have two african-americans. we have an openly gay candidate. and also we have women.
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so issues like this do matter. they need to speak up and they need to talk about this. and they can't stay silent on this at all. we are in a different time. yes, we have donald trump in the white house who is a bigot and a racist, but at the same time our country is moving forward. just look at what we did in november 2018 where we elected an incredibly diverse house, a house -- the most diverse house that we've had in history. so we have to really speak up and speak out against this. this is racism. he was 25 years old. this was 1984. it is not okay. we have to send a message. >> larry sabato, the dean, really, of the virginia political world, the university of virginia center for politics. >> oh. >> the person i love to talk to about virginia politics. >> karine jean-pierre, chief politics officer for thanks to both of you. we'll keep or eyes on
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develops this hour. but up next, the democratic 2020 field just got more crowded with the latest entrant kicking off his campaign on the first day of black history month. we'll talk about that when we come back. history month we'll talk about that when we come back. -i know, it's not much, but it's home. right, kids? -kids? -papa, papa! -[ laughs ] -you didn't tell me your friends were coming. -oh, yeah. -this one is tiny like a child. -yeah, she is. oh, but seriously, it's good to be surrounded by what matters most -- a home and auto bundle from progressive. -oh, sweetie, please, play for us. -oh, no, i couldn't. -please. -okay. [ singing in spanish ] -please. -okay. our grandparents checked zero times a day. times change. eyes haven't. that's why there's ocuvite. screen light... sunlight... longer hours... eyes today are stressed. but ocuvite has vital nutrients... help protect them. ocuvite. eye nutrition for today.
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today new jersey senator cory booker is the latest democrat to jump into the increasingly crowded 2020 presidential poll. luke the already announced candidates, booker is hoping to take advantage of the favorable political climate and relishing the press expect of taking on an unpopular divisive incumbent president with low poll numbers. two months ago democrats rode a tide of anti-trump sentiment resulting in a newly emboldened democratic house. by historical standards, it's really not that early. >> congressman udall, a democrat, today announced that he will seek the party's presidential nomination. that really isn't unusual, but udall has done it two years before the presidential election, and that is unusual. >> the 1976 race for president actually got under way in the fall of 1974. two full years before the
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election. president ford had been in office for less than three months when his party got a shellacking in the 1974 midterms. republicans lost 49 seats in the house and four in the senate. as punishment for the watergate stand and ford's subsequent pardon of richard nixon two months earlier. just eight days after those crushing '74 midterms, see the date there, november 13th, 197, the first democratic contender was already in. a month later before the year was even up, democrats had a second candidate. you might remember him. >> a second democrat announced today that he is a candidate for president. he's the outgoing governor of georgia, jimmy carter. here is part of carter's announcement of his candidacy. >> as of this time, here in the state that i love, surrounded by friends of mine from all over
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the nation, in fact even from the moon, i'd like to announce that i am a candidate for president. [ cheers and applause ] >> that guy, jimmy carter, would come out on top of a record field of 17 democratic candidates and then ride the anger and revulsion over watergate to a drubbing of gerald ford in the general election. the same kind of post-1974 political environment that we find ourselves in today, which is perhaps why we're seeing more than 20 democratic candidates who have either announced they're running or are currently thinking about jumping into the race. cory booker announced his candidacy today in his hometown of newark. he also released an announcement video, which has become a staple of the modern day campaign. >> in america we have a common pain, but what we're lacking is a sense of common purpose. ♪ ♪ >> cory!
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>> what's up? amen. >> i grew up knowing that the only way we can make change is when people come together. we are better when we help each other. the history of our nation is designed by collective action, by interwoven destinies of slaves and abolitionists. those who were born here and those who chose america as home. those who took up arms to defend our country and those who linked ar arms. together america, we will rise. i'm cory booker and i'm running for president of the united states of america. >> booker announced his candidacy on the first day of black history month. never hurts to get a little symbolism in. last month kamala harris, the other african-american candidate in the field, launched her campaign on martin luther king day. today harris marked the start of black history month by noting the legacy of congresswoman and
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1972 presidential candidate shirley chism. quoting her, quote, you don't make progress by standing on the sidelines, whimpering and complaining, you make progress by implementing ideas. harris noted that she stands on the shoulders of giants like congresswoman chism. >> not only am i literally and figuratively the dark horse, i'm actually the poor horse. the only thing that i have going for me is my soul and my commitment to the american people. the united states constitution stipulates that anyone that is 35 years of age or over and is a natural born citizen can run for the presidency. all of us meet that criteria. the people will make a decision. >> the people will make a decision. shirley chism came up short in 1972, and although she did win 28 delegates. now her legacy is inspiring democratic campaigns almost 50
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years polarity when once again the people will make a decision. democrats already have a good roster to choose from, even as another big name candidates continue to responsible ter their electoral futures and map out a path to victory. each candidate will have to choose their particular path. in the past, iowa and new hampshire have received the lion's share of the attention, but in recent years it's increasingly the palmetto state, south carolina, that has played kingmaker air campaign stopper in this process. in 2008 it was south carolina that rejuvenated barack obama's campaign after he lost new hampshire to hillary clinton. today "the new york times" reports that booker will likely focus heavily on south carolina and other southeastern states with large black voting populations. he'll be just one of a flood of candidates competing in a state that's becoming a bigger prize with every election cycle. and which the african-american vote accounts for a whopping 60%, 6-0 of the democratic
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primary electorate. we have someone here who understands south carolina politics inside and out. jamie harrison joins us next. e . jamie harrison joins us next ted. ted. it's so simple, i don't even have to think about it. so i think about mouthfeel. i don't think about the ink card. i think about nitrogen ice cream in supermarkets all over the world. i think about the details. fine, i obsess over the details. think about every part of your business except the one part that works without a thought. your ink card. chase ink business unlimited. chase ink business unlimited, with unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase. chase for business. make more of what's yours. each day justin at work... walk. and after work. he does it all with dr. scholl's. only dr. scholl's has massaging gel insoles that provide all-day comfort. to keep him feeling more energized. dr. scholl's. born to move. why go with anybody else? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. we're the tenney's and we're usaa members for life.
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we have two huge stories tonight that turn out to be interconnected. we have the burgeoning democratic primary field. senator cory booker jumped in today so he's the newest candidate. we have ralph northam turning up in his 1984 medical yearbook photo as a man in blackface or
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the one in the kkk outfit. and now republican senator tim scott of that all-important early primary state of south carolina is speaking out about the virginia governor. saying the governor's quick apology is good but the people of virginia will make their voices heard. i'm betting the people of senator scott's south carolina will have some opinions as well. joining us now is jamie harrison, the associate chairman of the democratic committee and the former chair of the south carolina democratic party. he's also the author of "climbing the hill: how to build a career in politics a make a difference." thank you so much for joining us tonight, jamie. good to talk to you. >> thank you joy. >> thank you very much. we have lots and lots of statements coming out. senator kamala harris has called on governor northam to resign. you've got 2020 candidates beginning to weigh in. i believe elizabeth warren has also weighed in.
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how do you think this winds up playing out? a lot of these candidates are practically living in your state in south carolina, trying to appeal to an electorate that is about 60% african-american. does their stand on northam become a litmus test or a factor in how much support people can gain in south carolina? >> listen, joy, i think this will be one of the many factors that some of the folks in south carolina will look and gauge where our candidates are in terms of the democratic party. i fervently believe that, you know, there is stupid, there is dumb and then there is unconscionable. and these images and the things we're seeing with -- coming up with the minimnickname, those t are unconscionable. i think it's in the best interest of the people of virginia, for the nation, for the governor just to step down. >> i mentioned the statement by elizabeth warren. let me read the statement that just came out. these racist images are deeply disturbing. hatred and discrimination have no place in our country and must
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not be tolerated, especially from our leaders, democrat or republican. northam must resign. cory booker seems to be prepared to spend a lot of time in the state. let's talk about what this race is going to look like in south carolina. obviously you have to win, place or show to come out of south carolina with at least something, some kind of momentum. is there a candidate in particular that's got an early sort of good read on the electorate? >> well, i can tell you the actions i've seen so far in south carolina, joy. one, senator harris and senator booker have been spending a lot of time down there. they are talking to a lot of staffers or potential staffers, and with a lot of the community leaders in south carolina. but, you, this is also a state with strong ties to vice president joe biden. i also have seen a lot of action lately from senator warren.
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you know, eric swalwell was down here recently. all this action coming into south carolina. it's not clear at this point whether there is a definite front-runner in the state, but nonetheless, you know, everybody's doing a little dating right now. >> yeah. >> to gauge and see where these candidates really are on the issues that are most important to them. >> let's go through a couple of them really quickly. senator -- congressman clyburn, who you know very well, very important politician there in south carolina, has said biden is the candidate to beat. and at the same time, kamala harris has had some challenges with some parts of the african-american electorate because of her background as a prosecutor. biden helped write the crime bill. how does it play out between his ties to a bill that was very unpopular for hillary clinton and kamala harris' time as a prosecutor? are either of those things going to become problematic for voters in the palmetto state? >> you know, one of the things that the crime bill was front and center in the 2016 race, you
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know. that was an issue that bernie sanders brought up repeatedly in the contest with hillary clinton. and i see that that particular issue breaks down on -- there are some differences generationally. you know, a lot of younger people -- this is an issue that they're very fervent about and believe in. whereas there are a lot of older african-americans that i've talked to in south carolina that have a more nuanced approach as it relates to crime and where things were at that particular time when that bill was being considered. so i think on that particular issue you'll see some of the generational divides. but at the end of the day, you know, for any of those senators or anybody that actually voted on that bill or was working in the criminal justice space, they're going to have to talk about their stance and the things that they've done previously because for a large section, particularly the up and coming african-american electorate, that is a very, very important issue for them. >> yeah, i'm sure there's going to be a lot of talk about the issues of crime.
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tough on crime. mass incarceration. it's going to be a big issue. jaime harrison, thank you very much for your time. >> good to see you, joy. >> good to see you, too. when we come back, jump associate roger stone goes before a judge and she is not here for his signature antics. more on that just ahead. more on that just ahead. the fact is, americans move more than anyone else in the world. on average, we'll live in eleven homes. and every time we move, things change. apartments become houses, cars become mini vans.
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we love you, roger. woo-hoo! we love roger. >> the one-man show that is roger stone had a courtroom episode today, but you might want to binge watch it while you can because the president's longtime associate may be about to get muzzled. stone was in court today for a status hearing on the chase charging him with seven counts of lying to congress, obstruction of justice and witness tampering. judge amy burman jackson is considering slapping stone with a gag order and she wasted no time today laying out why. quote, i have noticed that there's already been considerably publicity fueled in large part by the extrajudicial statements of the defendant himself. i recognize that the arrest and
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indictment were public and the defendant may have justifiably felt the need to get his story out, but there's no question that at this point he certainly had hat opportunity. quote, and since this is a criminal proceeding and not a public relations campaign, i believe that it behooves counsel and the parties to do their talking in this courtroom and in their pleadings and not on the courthouse steps or on the talk show circuit. she reassured stone that the gag order would only prevent him from talking about his case and that stone would still be able to, quote, discuss foreign relations, immigration or tom brady as much as he wanted. we love a little judge humor. judge jackson warned roger stone that treating the build-up to the trial, quote, like a book tour could taint the jury pool. and then offered this ominous warning for the famously loose-lipped self-described dirty trickster. quote, the defendant should be aware that to the extent any of his public pronouncements turn
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out to be inconsistent with each other or bear on the facts of the case in any way, the office of special counsel will be free to introduce any of them as evidence against him at trial. maybe roger stone wants that gag order after all. remember, this is the same judge, amy burman jackson, who presided over roger stone's old pal and one-time business partner paul manafort, second trial. she sent manafort to jail because manafort was contacting potential witnesses. and today the judge warned stone not to try to pull any of what manafort did. quote, it is a condition of your release that you may not contact any of those individuals or any individuals that you believe are witnesses in the case in person, by mail, by phone, electronically, that includes e-mails, text messages, instant messenger, instagram, whatsapp or any other encrypted or unencrypted app. the ban on contacting them
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directly or indirectly also includes communication through any end immediate year other than counsel who has entered an appears in this case. quote, is that understood, mr. stone? and roger stone replies, yes, your honor. the other order of business was figuring out when stone's case will go to trial. the government wants october. the judge is thinking late summer. and here's why that's notable. for all the reporting that special counsel robert mueller is about to wrap up the roger stone timeframe would suggest maybe not. joining us now is elliot williams, former deputy assistant attorney general. mr. williams, thank you very much for being with us. >> hi. >> so let's talk about the timeline first. there has been all of this sort of scuttle but and i feel like it happens every couple of weeks. it's almost over. the mueller investigation is going to wrap up. interim a.g. whitaker kind of hinted at that. if the judge is saying october for the stone trial, doesn't that mean by default this isn't
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ending any time soon? >> right. we don't know when this is going to end and it could take a significant amount of time. under the law mr. stone would be entitled to a trial within 70 days, it's the speedy trial act, but because of all the evidence that was uncovered, terra bites of data. mueller could have been wrapping up but just on account of everything that was seized from roger stone, they needed more time or they might still be going on. remember, let's not forget that in the grand scheme of special counsel and an independent counsel investigations, this isn't gone on for that long. we're really only at about the two-year mark. if you think about whitewater which is the big one from most of our lives, that started in 1994 and didn't wrap until 2001. so, you know, given that i think 33 or 34 individuals have already been charged, this has been a hugely successful investigation thus far. even if the end isn't coming tomorrow, you know, it may still
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be, you know, at some point in the relatively near future following a great deal of success. >> yeah. and the judge was very pointed in trying to warn roger stone not to make -- not to hurt himself by speaking out of turn and then potentially contradicting either his own statements or statements by other witnesses. we know that michael cohen has now been subpoenaed by the senate intelligence committee for closed-door sessions on february 12th. that is going to happen. we also know that per a cnn article the house oversight committee is in talks to bring cohen in on february 7th. that would actually be an open session. that was the day he was originally slated to testify. how much jeopardy does that, in your view put really either roger stone or even donald trump in. now you can have cohen telling one story and roger stone putting himself all out there on television and media interviews and talking a lot. if anything he says and cohen says disagree, could that be problems? >> yeah, it puts all of them
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potentially in jeopardy because, number one, each time one of these individuals opens their mouth, they seem to tell more lies. cohen has been charged with lying. roger stone has been charged with lying. paul manafort has been charged with lying. if you notice there is a trend here, you know, frankly, they're tied to a president that i believe in 2018 was found to have lied 15 times a day over the course of 2018. and so the jeopardy is, number one, they can contradict themselves. you know, that becomes evidence in court. they could commit acts of perjury which itself becomes a new crime. so, yes, every time they talk, they seem to get themselves in more trouble. the other thing is that, you know, congress as a body can also, you know, hold them in contempt for lying or prosecute them for lying. this can mess up all of their prosecutions, too, because they're running their mouths and getting themselves in more trouble. so, you know, again, it's when people are pathologically untruthful, they're going to get themselves in more trouble the more they testify and the more they speak. they're jeopardizing, frankly,
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their own chances of getting fair trials. like every time roger stone opens his mouth and this is what the judge is trying to protect him from, he is harming his chances of getting his own fair day in court. >> i'm not sure who told him to go on this media tour. the judge told him don't do any more of that. not a good idea. thank you very much. appreciate it. and coming up, the president checks off yet another item on vladimir putin's wish list. stay with us. stay with us una mesa para dos p. so again, using "para," you're talking about something that is for someone. pretty good. could listening to audible inspire you to start something new? download audible and listen for a change. before discovering nexium 24hr to treat her frequent heartburn, marie could only imagine enjoying freshly squeezed orange juice.
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the president of the united states and the general secretary of the communist party of the soviet union signed the inf treaty. >> today i for the united states and the general secretary for the soviet union have signed the first agreement ever to eliminate an entire class of u.s. and soviet nuclear weapons. we have made history. >> in december of 1987 ronald reagan and mikhail gorbachev came to a dramatic agreement. at the height of the cold war they agreed that the united states and the soviet union would eliminate all land-based missiles with ranges between a few hundred and a few thousand miles. after the treaty was signed more than 2,000 missiles were destroyed between the two countries. for over 30 years the intermediate range nuclear forces treaty or inf has served as a check on ambitions of the two largest nuclear powers on earth, until today when
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secretary of state mike pompeo announced that the trump administration is suspending the treaty effective tomorrow. in six months if they don't find that russia has come into compliance with the terms of the inf, they will terminate the treaty altogether. the president managed to put pa positive stand on the affair saying, we stand ready to engage with russia on arms control negotiations that meet these criteria, and, importantly, once that is done, develop, perhaps for the first time ever, an outstanding relationship on economic, trade, political and military levels. this would be a fantastic thing for russia and the united states, and would also be great for the world, unquote. european allies are understandably very, very nervous. after all, the missiles regulated out of existence by the treaty could reach europe within minutes from russia. now it is widely acknowledged russia is violating the terms of the treaty and it was the obama administration who first confronted putin about missile tests back in 2014. but it's the response to that
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violation where things get more complicated. i mean why not work harder to get russia back into compliance rather than issue ultimatums? who will benefit most from demise of the treaty and are we headed for a new arms race? a nuclear weapons policy expert and president of the plows fund ab the argued in an op-ed, when someone breaks the law, the answer is not to repeal the law. there are well-established methods of bringing an offending nation back into compliance. he joins us tonight. appreciate your time tonight. thank you. let's answer the last three questions. who benefits most by the u.s. backing out of the treaty? >> vladimir putin. it is a gift to vladimir putin. he's the one who now gets to deploy as many weapons as he wants because there are no longer or won't be in six months any limits on what he can do. it, of course, produces great trains in the u.s./european alliance system. that is also to pursuit's favor.
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and the u.s. takes the blame for this. also to putin's favor. so this is not standing up to russia, this is a gift to russia. >> was there some other way that the u.s. could have encouraged compliance if the obama administration was also complaining that they were not complying? >> absolutely and ronald reagan showed us the way. treaties often have violations in them. one state or the other accuses another party of violating the treaty. when ronald reagan became president, he accused the soviet union of violating another treaty, the anti-ballistic missile treaty, but he didn't pull out of that treaty. he didn't kill that treaty. he pressed the russians for six years. in fact, while he was pressing them, he negotiated with them this inf treaty. and after mikhail gorbachev and reagan signed that treaty, the soviets admitted that they were in violation of the abm treaty and they tore down the offending radar. that's the way you get somebody into compliance. you don't let them off the hook, you press them into they give in.
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>> kind of scary news. thank you very much for bringing it down for us. i really appreciate it. >> thank you, joy. still ahead tonight, something you want to keep your eyes on this weekend. stay with us.
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okay. one quick thing i said at the top of the show that there have been two african-american governors in the history of this country. i was wrong. during reconstruction, served as governor of louisiana for about a month. since then, we've had governor duval patrick in massachusetts
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and douglas wilder from virginia as well as, can't believe i forgot about david patterson from this great state, the great state of flaerk. so if the governor of virginia resigns and his lieutenant governor justin fairfax takes over, mr. fairfax would be the fourth african-american governor in modern times and the nif in our nation's 242 he-year. got to make that correction. but let's talk about an historic first. this tuesday a black woman will deliver the response to the president's state of the union address. i'm, of course, talking about former democratic nominee for georgia governor stacey abrams, who emerged as one of the 2018 cycle's democratic stars. she lost her race in a nail-biter and then she wasted no time after the race getting back to her life's work, fighting for voting rights and against voter suppression by starting her own pac dedicated to increasing voter accessibility called fair fight. she's keiring up this tuesday
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for what could be the biggest speech of her career thus far. she's also making an appearance at the super bowl in an ad that is going to air on georgia stations. >> smile. fact check that, twitter. i will see you to on my own show tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern. ali bellshi is in tonight. >> we should make time outside of this, joy. as you said when you started the show, it is a busy night. we will pick it up now. >> i'm in for lawrence o'donnell. the president of the united states is living in an alternate universe with this border wall.


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