tv MSNBC Live with Kendis Gibson MSNBC March 23, 2019 11:00am-1:00pm PDT
that's a rap for this hour. i'll hand it off to ken disgip son. >> what a busy day it is. at msnbc headquarters in new york, it is finished. so now what? after 22 months, robert mueller's russia investigation is complete. what's in it no one knows, except for this man. attorney general william barr is at the department of justice right now deciding what and if any of it will be shared with congress or made public. we're told it could come as early as this weekend. also happening within the next hour, house speaker nancy pelosi will lead a conference call with
democrats to discuss their next move. minutes ago the speaker releasing a letter to her colleagues saying, quote, the american people deserve the truth. nbc news has learned that ranking house republicans also jumped on the conference call of their own last night. in the meantime, after hearing there will be no more indictments from robert mueller, trump supporters are taking a victory lap. are the celebrations premature? we'll have live team coverage this hour to break it all down. while we know very little things about the findings, here is what we do know right now. barr says he's reviewing the report and could send principle conclusions some time this weekend. he says the special counsel is not recommending more indictments. after charging 34 people, the president's personal lawyer insists they are not trying to get an early look at all of this. the white house says it has not been briefed on the content of the report. our correspondents are covering every angle of this big breaking news story right now.
we'll start with nbc news national security and justice reporter julia ainsley who is at doj right now. it's already been an unusually busy day there. >> reporter: it has. we know william barr and deputy attorney general rod rosenstein are behind me right now going over this comprehensive report that took robert mueller almost two years to put together. they will then be sending a summary to congress. what we have learned just within the past hour is that summary will not be released today. they still think they'll do it as soon as this weekend. we'll be on alert for that tomorrow. also told capitol hill not to be on alert today. rod rosenstein is part of the process. i think the justice department wants to get that out because they want the american public to know this isn't just a filter of william barr. they have rosenstein overseeing the investigation since the early stage, that he's also
involved. the summary that we can see will also have his hands on it. the summary won't include everything. there will have to be a second stage after which robert mueller weighs in and helps the attorney general decide what is in the public interest to be released. >> julia, once they do send that report, this synopsis to congress, will it be immediately released for the public at that time? >> reporter: exactly, almost simultaneously. capitol hill may have a little lead time, but not much. we should expect the same thing. that was a question just this week. we were wondering how much he'd give to congress and whether or not there would be a mad scramble across washington to try to get the report released. we'll bring it to you right here. so that question is answered. the only piece that isn't answered is what he will then disclose in a second report when he has to decide what things
might be privileged for the executive or from grand jury testimony. >> it could be a busy weekend ahead. our thanks to you, julia. now to national security and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian joining us right now. we got the letter from barr last night. what can we expect right now, but from the report itself? >> reporter: that letter told us something very important which is that, in addition to disclosing his declination desituations, he las has other information in the report which may or may not be made public. the special counsel regulations are sparse and only require him to explain to the attorney general who he decided not to prosecute and why. the big question with mueller, would he write a larger narrative, disclose all the things he found short of crimes. we cast judgment on behavior of
the trump with russia. reading the tea leaves of this letter, it appears he's done more than just talk about who he didn't prosecute. he's also saying it's not clear all that stuff could become public. what would be the reasons for that? one, it could be classified. secondly, it could derive from secret grand jury information. no matter what barr reports to congress and what he sends in a second more lengthy report, congressional democrats say they will not rest until they obtain and release the entire robert mueller report. >> some in the trump camp are celebrating already. is it too early for this? >> reporter: well, robert mueller did not file conspiracy charges against anybody associated with the trump campaign alleging they coordinated with the russian election interference campaign. that's a big deal. many people expected those charges to be filed based on the public evidence we've seen. in that sense, donald trump was going to proclaim victory.
he should be careful to do so until he understands what else robert mueller found. it's very conceivable that mueller spoke to the issue of whether trump or anybody around him was compromised, influenced by this russian covert operation to interfere in our democracy. it could be a very unflattering picture. we already know things in public that are very unflattering. donald trump called on the russians to find hillary clinton's e-mails. his son was happy to take a meeting from russians promising dirt on hillary clinton. it's reasonable to expect that robert mueller may have something to say about that and may have things to say about facts we have not yet learned about the trump campaign's contacts with russians. >> thanks to ken dilanian there. the president has had no loss of words in his more than 1100 attacks of the russian probe. now that the probe is over, what's he saying? crickets.
nothing so far. he's in mar-a-lago for the weekend. our own geoff bennett is at the white house. are we getting an official reaction from the white house? >> yesterday sarah sanders saying they had not seen the mueller report, had not been briefed on it. the white house trying to keep their distance from this report. deputy press secretary said the tweet you see on your screen is still actionable. the next steps are up to attorney general barr. president trump who you mentioned in his private mar-a-lago estate in south florida rounded by advisers and supporters, you're right, in uncharacteristically silent. i'm told that silence is by design. the president being advised to take it down a notch on twitter, in part because the white house so far is taking as good news the lack of new indictments. as you heard ken just say, that is a big deal with a huge caveat.
that is why the president, unlike last weekend where he went on the twitter tirade, this weekend so far is staying silent, ken dis. >> is there sort of a war room set up at the white house or at least at the winter white house as they call it in mar-a-lago, to try to counter whatever comes out of this report? >> reporter: right. you do i imagine have a war room of sorts. traveling with the president you have the white house counsel, you also have nick mulvaney, the acting white house chief of staff. sarah sanders, the press secretary and her deputy, hogan gibbly. that's a lot of white house staffers for just a quick jaunt to mar-a-lago for the weekend. that's done to help respond to the news of the weekend. it's also done because the president when he's not attended to, sends to be, shall we say, reckless on twitter. part of this has to do with keeping the plan and strategy they have in place on track.
>> we should get people down there to mar-a-lago to check the wi-fi connection. it's really strange we have not heard anything from the president who went on a twitter storm last weekend about all of this. our thanks to geoff bennett at the white house. we'll speak with you soon. i want to bring in my panel right now, natasha ber tran, also an msnbc contributor, paul butler, professor at georgetown school of law, also an msnbc analyst and cynthia ox ney joining me onset. happy to have all of you here on what is a busy saturday. natasha, barr says he'll be as transparent as possible. what happens next here? >> a great question, ken dis. we really don't know. he's consulting with the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein. we know there might also be consultations going on with mueller himself as barr laid out in that letter. he said he would be consulting with both men about what should and shouldn't be released.
i imagine they'll be going through it to look for things like sources an methods, things that don'ts really need to be public, counterintelligence stuff that doesn't need to be in the public domain and can compromise the intelligence aspect of this investigation and perhaps the ongoing counterintelligence investigations that we don't really know about. what i imagine is the next step barr will release the top level findings to congress, to the public, but that won't be the end of it. we'll see the principle findings, collusion, no collusion, conspiracy, no conspiracy, why he decided to not pursue criminal charges against certain people but perhaps explaining why they did behave badly or did things that may not have been totally aboveboard during the election in 2016. but i do think there's going to be a much bigger release after those top level findings are public because i'm also told that the doj wants to get the findings out as soon as possible
to give the public a sense of where we're at. we'll learn a lot more in the coming days and perhaps weeks about the nuances and intricacies of what mueller found. >> it seemed they were trying to be transparent. we might get that synopsis as early as today. we're now told it might have sometime this weekend. cynthia, we saw the letter from barr. we've been waiting for so long for this report to be revealed. it has finally been finished. what do you get out of what you've seen so far? no future indictments, what? what stands out to you? >> what stands out to me is nbc is reporting there are no further indictments. that means when it comes to the collusion, the conspiracy, and when it comes to the ob sfluks the russian investigation and mueller, anybody below trump is not going to be indicted, unless it's been indicted. it may be the don jr. possible perjury is farmed out.
ken is right, there's at's not deal for those people. the justice department policy is the president could never be indicted. we're expecting the report to say what was the legal standing on those two points for the president. that's different from all the people underlying. >> so far not a single person with the last name trump has been indicted or charged or in jail. with this investigation, are they in the zpleer. >> i think they're in the clear as to russian conspiracy and obstruction, but not to don jr. and perjury or the campaign violations, the trump, the charity, the financing, the bank fraud, insurance fraud. don't put the champagne -- keep it in the fridge. >> which is why a lot of people or the president calling it a witch hunt because there are so many investigations that have been spawned from all of this.
i want to show the one graphic on the pages, the length of the previous noteworthy special counsel investigations. iran contra that was at 566 pages, the starr report, both those investigations lasted at least four years. this one only one year and ten months. how do you think this investigation will compare? >> ken dis, there's a different law at issue here. as we all know, robert mueller reports to the attorney general. the previous law which empowered independent counsels, they were their own boss so they could come up with their own report. that's important here because of a justice department policy that when people are not charged with crimes, the justice department doesn't release any information about why. when i was a federal prosecutor and we ended up not charging, we had to write a lengthy detailed memo called a declination
explaining why. the really important issue now is with regard to the president of the united states, will we get to see that declination, we being the american people and the congress. it will explain why the president wasn't charged. there could be three reasons. one, he's innocent. two, because of the doj policy that a sitting president can't be indicted or, three, because it wasn't a slam dunk case. some of that could still go to other issues like impeachment and national security. now we have to focus on the barr report, what information will be barr report contain. >> we don't know exactly. while we were talking there, paula was scribbling something. >> i want everybody to know, the report will go to the house. recognize there are a lot of things that aren't going to be in it. not only will there be grand jury material taken out, but if there are pending investigations, we're going to see that famous mueller
blackout. >> again? >> again. if there are things still being investigated. when his report comes in its entirety, which i hope it finally does, be ready emotionally for a lot of blackout. there are a lot of things still in the air, southern district of new york, eastern district of virginia and the d.c.u.s. attorney's office. >> all investing in sharpie blank ink. natasha, to you. the drum beat right now is for this report to be made publix, all of it, no redactions. i think even don junior mentioned it as well. congress voted 421-0. the pressure ais building on thm to release the entire thing, right? >> i think they're all very aware of that. i think that's why barr has
taken pains to emphasize the fact that he wants to be as transparent as possible. he's already off to a good start. he released the letter he wrote to congress with the notification to the press, to the public, so that's a good sign. he's continuing to consult with rod rosenstein about what should and shouldn't be made public. in the past with indictments being rolled out, there has been a high level of transparency there. so i do have faith that this won't be buried as some people are concerned about. at the same time, the barr report could differ a lot from the original mueller report, and the gap between those two is what we really need to be careful about. that is something perhaps that congress will be able to get to, maybe by subpoena. they could get the report, original report itself. but i don't think anyone will be satisfied with just the summary of the findings that barr produces. >> we've gone from mueller time to barr time i guess.
it all sounds great to me. paul, to you on that note. is this the end? people who weren't named in an indictment, should they be celebrating at this point? is this the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning? >> this is the end of the mueller investigation. there remains an extremely important counterintelligence and national security investigation. kendis, the house and intelligence committees could subpoena people from the fbi, the department of justice and mr. mueller himself to talk not about whether there's evidence to put somebody in jail, but whether there's reasons to be concerned that the president might be compromised. for example, we know when he was on the campaign trail he apparently lied about his dealings with the russians, especially with regard to trump tower in moscow. while it's not a crime for a
presidential candidate to lie, if he did lie, the russians knew about it, which means he was compromised. that's an important national security concern. that investigation is done in part by mueller, but will be done also by the house and senate intelligence committees. >> so many investigations continuing right now beyond the mueller probe. it will be some time before we get some sort of clonclusionmen our thanks to everybody getting us started, natasha, paul and cynthia, thank you, guys. no more indictments. robert mueller might be done. he did manage to charge more than 30 people, some of them past members of the president's inner circle. some convicted and some jailed. after the break, the russia investigation by the numbers and who is potentially still in trouble right now.
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one year, ten months, six days and countless minutes but how do you measure the mueller probe? in arrests, convictions, indictments? dozens of them. former trump campaign chair paul manafort pleaded guilty, former personal attorney michael cohen pleaded guilty, reporting to prison in may. former national security adviser michael flynn pleaded guilty, former trump campaign adviser george papadopoulos, pleaded guilty, rick gates pleaded
guilty and roger stone indicted. also included are russian nationals and military officers. a number of sealed indictments have been issued. we don't know yet who those indictments are actually for. let's get into all of this with former justice department spokesman and partner of villa nova and nbc justice and security analyst matthew miller and pbs news and nbc news political am lift yamiche alcindor. matt, let's start with you. let's start with the sealed indictment. >> i'm not sure we'll see any other indictments released, all filed under seal in d.c. as is true in every circuit in the country. it's a regular course,
indictments get filed under seal. when they're ready to be unsealed, they are. i took it to mean not only will the special counsel not be bringing any new indictments, but there aren't any remaining under seal that will be made public in the coming days. that doesn't mean there won't be other charges from other department of justice agencies. i think we're at the end. >> there was an unusual number, high number of indictments that are under seal right there in the d.c. area. yamiche, the president has repeatedly claimed there was no collusion. some critics of the probe complain that mueller in concluding the investigation proves it. where are we right now? >> the president has been waiting for two years to have an idea of what robert mueller found in his report. now he's a little bit closer to actually finding that. people i've been talking to in the trump circle and who have been talking to the president says he's glad this is finally
over. there are people around him saying this is vindication because there will be no other indictments. they're taking that to mean the president as well as his children and jared kushner, his son-in-law, all those people, despite all the talk, that they're free from being charged and won't be indictmeed and not added to the trump associates that were indicted. there are people close to the president who are telling me this means complete vindication, means it's all a waste of time and this was all about hillary clinton being angry about not winning the election. we do know there are people that were close to the president tied with lying to the fbi. those cases will go forward. >> yamiche, you know this
president, given the opportunity to celebrate and say no collusion, no collusion, he will be out there on the twitter machine all day, all night. what do you make of the silence? >> what i make of the silence is that president trump, like the rest of us, is cautiously awaiting what robert mueller's final report is going to say and doesn't want to be celebrating too early. there's still people around the president on the record talking to me and other reporters. i talked to corey lewandowski, rudy giuliani who, of course, is the president's personal lawyer. those are people that the president knows are out there talking. he's allowing people around him to speak on his behalf. i think the president wants to send a big congratulatory tweet once he knows what's in the report. >> speaking of the report, it doesn't suggest there was collusion between the president and the kremlin, at least as far as we know. do you have still concerns about
the president's dealings with putin? >> i think we should have concerns about the president's dealings with putin. asking no other aides in the room, insisting that the translator surrender her notes to him so they shouldn't be shared with anyone else in the government. the public actions with inspector putin when he takes his side over the u.s. intelligence community. i think when we finally get to see the report, at least the parts we get to see and let's hope congress gets to see everything, even if some of it is in a secure setting, if there's classified information about his relationship with the russian president. there will be questions about criminality and about whether you can prove criminality by the president. there are other questions about what is his relationship with the russian government, was he compromised at any point, was he acting with the united states' best interest at heart. lawmakers in congress need to see the answers to those questions, if the special counsel was able to answer them. and i think at the maximum, the entire public ought to know
those answers. >> hopefully we get the answers soon. thanks to matthew miller and yamiche alcindor. a lot of people are asking can a sitting president be indicted. senator amy klobuchar sits down with msnbc's kasie hunt as he stumps for support in the presidential race next. when you rent from national...
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one of the big questions still out there is possible obstruction of justice by the president or members of his inner circle. joining me now to break it all down is nbc news investigative reporter tom winter and elliot williams, former deputy assistant attorney general at the department of justice. full disclosure, he lobbies for law works, an organization advocating for the importance of the special counsel and making sure the findings of the special counsel are made public. so we know exactly where you lie. also, charlie savage, new york times national security and legal reporter and an msnbc contributor. what a great team to have right now and an important day. tom, where are we with the possible obstruction of justice when it comes to the investigation?
>> i think the question is whether or not there was any obstruction of justice. i think there's a significant question about that. i think when people look at it from a legal standpoint, you can't charge him with firing the fbi director. that's within the president's purview. as far as -- we were the first organization to report they were looking at the president's statement, in the crafting of the statement when it first started to be reported by "the new york times" that there was this meeting at trump tower. it was being focused on as far as what did people know, not whether or not the president was obstructing justice. he was not obstructing justice when he was crafting the statement. it's whether or not the president knew, whether other people in the white house knew, what they knew about that and what they were trying to get out through that message or not get out through that message. i think there is a question about whether or not there was any sort of an obstruction of justice in this case. i think that's something we'll see if it's addressed in this report. >> of course, the other thing that's hopefully addressed in the report is collusion.
my big question about all that, elliott, how do you not interview the likes of donald trump jr., donald trump in person, many of the other people, jared kushner, for that matter, who were at the trump tower meeting in 2016 and come to any sort of conclusion? >> i'm very reluctant to answer that question. >> why? >> based on the faith that i have as a former prosecutor in robert mueller and the team of agents he had around him. this is the lebron -- let's think college basketball, the michael jordan of investigators and prosecutors. i'm confident that put together a solid, thorough investigation, and they made in their investigative and prosecutorial judgment. i'm curious to see what's in whatever they put together. either they'll lay out of the reasons for why they didn't. even if not laying out the reasons for why they didn't, laying out the cases they made. i just don't think necessarily we should read too much into the
fact -- it led to just shy of 200 charges and the number of people. >> and tack on to that, you did have cooperators. you had rick gates and michael flynn, in the heart of the trump campaign throughout the entire process, people who worked for the campaign. michael flynn, one of the earliest supporters of the president and somebody who is former government. i think you did have -- >> you did have a window inside, but it didn't get to the inner circle that many expect. i want to turn to charlie right now, the house judiciary committee investigating whether or not the president intended to obstruct justice when he fired comey. you heard tom talking about that. did chairman nadler subpoena the mueller report? >> he can subpoena it and see what he gets out of it. right now we don't know yet that the justice department, attorney
william barr is not going to give it to him. it's early to be talking about that. what we do know is whatever the democrats and house judiciary get will not be enough. they're already saying we want to see the underlying files, the transcripts of witness interviews, we want to see internal memos about why you didn't indict so and so or interview so and so. some point it's going to be too much from the executive branch point of view. i think what we'll be seeing in the next year or two is an ongoing push, a fight over the documents and access to them in which democrats are going to be saying coverup and republicans are going to be saying overreach. >> to that point right there, tom, the democrats run the risk of having us all feel investigation fatigue. >> that's certainly a question they'll have to calculate from a political standpoint. from a law enforcement perspective which is really more my expertise. with hillary clinton, the e-mail server investigation established
a little precedent in terms of providing 302s, basically the fbi's internal notes. a lot of those, if not all of them, were handed over, investigative summaries were handed over. for the justice department to say, well, in this investigation, hey, wait a minute, we can't do that or we can't share that, a little question whether or not they're going to be able to establish that in this case. grand jury, entirely separate matter. that's up to a judge. that's a whole separate container. we know robert mueller used a grand jury. we'll have to see what's in that container versus what are in their own internal notes. >> let me go back to congress and to charlie. you had the representative, eric swalwell last night on tv. here is what he had to say. >> no further indictments which means not don jr., even after i love it memo, really? not jared, not manafort or stone for working with the russians.
did the democrats put too much trust in the mueller report? >> there's probably a farming out of other investigations, but, yes, if you have a tv or twitter account, you've already seen obstruction of justice. i think the team has seen that. >> so he looks like he's a little confident there in the whole obstruction of justice line there by the firing of fbi director comey. if the report touches on that, could the president actually be charged? >> so this is part of the nuance of no further indictments. there was never going to be an indictment of trump for obstruction of justice because the justice department decided going way back to nixon and reiterating it during clinton, that the constitution does not permit a sitting president to be charged. if anyone was guilty of obstruction of justice, it was trump here. therefore, the lack of further indictments doesn't tell us anything about what robert mueller found or concluded in his analysis about the obstruction of justice issue. that's only going to be a narrative report that goes to
congress for them to decide what to do about it. it looks like representative swalwell is putting his eggs in that basket in light of no further indictments piece of the puzzle. >> i was asking tom in the commercial before land, if this is it. you say this is it. >> with respect to russia. >> here is the thing, and this is really important. it can be very hard to bring curveball charges and sustain criminal charges through convictions. it's a high burden. the question here or a question to be answered is, should the president have been engaging in this kind of conduct? should a presidential campaign have been engaging in poor conduct? there's two different questions. what can you charge criminally versus what is appropriate for the people running and leading the country. >> that bar for appropriate behavior has changed over the years. >> that is what congress will be assessing. it's their oversight duty to find that out. >> i've got to get going. thanks to you guys, elliot, charlie as well as tom.
democratic presidential hopefuls are calling for this, calling for total transparency on the mueller report. >> i think it should be released and i believe at this moment in history i think barr is going to understand that this is a moment where he can affirm and support the integrity of our government. >> i want to make sure that report is released. >> that report needs to be made public. >> nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt and host of kcdc on sunday nights joins me right now. you spoke with amy klobuchar moments ago at a town hall. her reaction to the mueller report being complete. >> kendis, what you heard there is a good summary from what we heard from all of the 2020 contenders, that include amy klobuchar, a former prosecutor herself. she is the one who questioned
attorney general bill bar about what he was going to do in terms of making this report public during the hearings to confirm him as the attorney general. now, of course, i know our team covering the department of justice is reporting we're not going to get an update on this necessarily until sometime midday tomorrow. in the meantime, the calls to make this public still very intense. i talked to amy klobuchar about that. i also spoke to her a little bit about whether or not she believes a sitting president can be indicted which, of course, could be one of the major questions coming out of either this report or the investigations in the southern district of new york and potentially as well in the district of columbia. take a look at a little piece of our interview. >> you're a former prosecutor. do you think that a sitting president can be indicted? >> yes. i mean it's based on, of course -- there's one supreme court case involving the nixon tapes, but i think that for now we're just waiting to see what
the report is. this is on the house, if they want to do something on impeachment, that's on them. our job in the senate, if you've noticed, the senators really haven't weighed in on that because we're supposed to be the jury. >> so you can tell there she really doesn't want to talk about this impeachment question. i pressed her several times on that issue. it is a politically tricky question for a lot of the democrats running for president because a lot of their base wants to see it. amy klobuchar, however, running to the center really and knows, if she won't quite say, that it would be a divisive experience for the country. the other thing i would point out, we spend an hour-plus at a town hall in new hampshire listening to voters bring their concerns to amy klobuchar and none of them asked about the mueller report. so i think there are a lot of other concerns on the minds of voters, and that's also a point that a lot of these candidates have made, that a lot of people want them focused on economic issues, health care, et cetera.
so take that for what you will. >> that's the key right there. our colleague von hilliard was in iowa just at the moment the mueller report was released, he was in a coffee shop. everybody was on their phone doing something else other than finding out what was the latest on the report. nbc's kasie hunt in new hampshire. thanks. you can watch her full interview tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. on casey dc right here on msnbc. still ahead. dial in. in just about 30 minutes, house democrats are hopping on a conference call to discuss how they'll handle the mueller report. after the break, i'm joined by congresswoman eleanor holmes norton, a member of the oversight committee to see what their next move will be. ♪ kraft. for the win win.
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all right. moments away, house democrats will have a conference call to discuss what comes next. now that the mueller report is finished. last thursday house lawmakers juunanimously called for the report findings to be made public in a 420-0 vote. joining me d.c. congresswoman eleanor holmes norton, a member of the oversight committee. i know you have a phone call expected soon. what do you expect to hear? what do you expect to say? >> i think members will be looking for exactly that, what can we hear and when can we get
it. i think this is -- this call is essential to get from the leadership all that they know which is, of course, probably all that we know. probably you in the press know more than we do. on the call i want to be clear that i want to hear from mueller himself. i can't cross examine or ask questions of a report. i want to hear from the man who is supposed to have all the credibility, and i believe he does. >> you're hoping they will subpoena mueller. what do you expect to hear from this mueller report? you'll get a synopsis probably sometime this weekend. what do you expect from that and from the report itself? >> i will tell you i'm a little worried about the notion that we will get the principle conclusions. we can't do oversight on conclusions. i'm on the oversight committee. i want the entire report.
i want to see whom they declined to bring charges against. that's necessary for the kind of oversight that the oversight committee is charged with doing. there are three branches of government. he dealt only with criminal matters. we deal with oversight matters and with legislation. we can't do that without some help from his report. >> okay. we do know there will be no further indictments, at least coming from muellemueller's tea. steven cohen is talking about all this. he says it doesn't mean the president is in the clear. do you think the president is still in trouble? >> oh, i do. >> why? >> for example, there's work to be done on his business dealings, on the trump hotel mosc moscow. that's not criminal maybe, but it may lead to questions about legality. the fact that the president
can't be indicted doesn't tell us very much. what can tell us much more is what we don't now know about his taxes, his business dealings, his work, virtually, to the election on trump hotel. so, we have lots more work to do on the oversight committee. and i do believe that the mueller report can help inform on that oversight work. >> representative, it sounds like it's going to be a very heated conversation there. our thanks. a central character in the probe, felix sater, a real estate mogul with ties to the russian front and the mob, he's going to testify into the house intelligence committee on
wednesday. it's worth noting in 2013, in a sworn deposition, trump testified that he barely knew sater and wouldn't recognize him in the same room. in the meantime, sater has testified that he knew trump personally and the two discussed business deals throughout the 2000s. julian assange has refused to hand over documents to the house judiciary committee as he lives in ecuadorian embassy still. joining us "the new york times" katie bender and randy zealand here in new york. katie, business at doj, why is felix sater critical in the conversations to president trump? >> of course, because he touches all of of the essential
dealings. also keep in mind, michael cohen has pled guilty and he and felix sater are closely aligned as well. >> randy in the meantime, many have suggested that the southern district of new york investigation into president trump is the most trouble ing a legally problematic thing that he has out there. you kind of heard the congresswoman saying there's so many different branches of this investigation. do you akind kind of agree with? >> i do. this is why we walk back into the mandate. >> into the special counsel's man daylight. >> the special counsel's mandate. is related to the russian influence into 2016 and related matters. >> yeah. >> which means everything unrelated is for everyone else to do in the southern district. are they interested in russian interference? are they interested in things like campaign finance violations, unrelated to russia? >> well, which is why the
president says this is starting to look like a fishing expedition. >> 7fine, then what do you have to say about the southern district which ain't a fishing ex pa decisipeditio expedition. you have michael cohen who pleaded guilty. you have investigations into insurance fraud, tax fraud. all kinds of fraud which are unrelated to the investigation. how does the mueller report extricate the problem from his problems? >> so, if you were down there in mar-a-lago, you couldn't be celebrating, necessarily right now? >> i would not. >> but the other thing we should be concerned why, why aren't we concerned about that the russians did actually influenced our elections. we lost sight of that. >> in the meantime, katy, ivanka trump talking about it. >> the mueller investigation sounds like it's coming to an end at some point soon.
you said before, nothing concerns you. >> no. >> some of the former aides have not been charged and people are saying, look, the walls are closing in. sitting here now that it is almost over, are you concerned about anyone in your life being involved? >> no. there's nothing there. yet it's created weeks and weeks and weeks of headlines, so, no, i have zero concern. >> i've been saying it for a while. put it all out there, how about don't redact anything. >> we agree. put it all out there. >> should they be more worried than they're letting on? >> you know, i think for right now, for trump and his family, they have pieces of the report which may or may not show that the president was charged with aim kroop however, we have to look back at the investigations sdny, especially the ones that involve the conversations where the trump children may be
implicated. if we think back to michael cohen's testimony he said he was doing things, for example, to protect the president's children, to protect ivanka and that donald trump was aware of some of the activities they were engaged in. i don't think they have any choice that they are worried. of course, they can't go on television and say that they're extremely anxious. i don't know that's a long-lasting position to take. >> randy, let me give you the last word. if you had the last name, trump, should you be worried still? >> hell, yes. >> so, you're saying there's a chance? >> i would say there's more than a chance. and gentle, it'again, because i so political, it almost seems like a back door coup. and the mandate was, what the hell were the russians doing interfering in our election? how did that happen, why did it happen and why do we ever keep it from happening again.
i don't know why democrats and republicans aren't focused on that. >> they're focused on a lot of things. thank you, randy and katy benefite benner there. so what will barr do, facing pressure from both sides of the aisle. still ahead, the possible political fallout from his decision. plus, msnbc has all of the angles covered when it comes to the mueller report. a special 6:00 p.m. edition of "a.m.joy." stick around all day. all in one relief of heartburn and gas ♪ ♪ tum tum tum tums tums chewy bites with gas relief
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pay nothing out of pocket. talk to your doctor and visit botoxchronicmigraine.com to enroll. all right. that will do it for this hour of ms "nightly news" live. our breaking news coverage begins with my colleague katie tur. we were wondering if your baby would come first or the mueller report would be completed. >> the mueller report has been completed before my baby came officially. but who knows. good afternoon. i'm katy tur, it's 12:00 p.m. out west and 3:00 p.m. in washington. where the eyes of the country are fixed on the justice department have attorney general bill barr and deputy general rod rosenstein are at work.
there's no indication that the summary will answer any of the questions that have lingered the last two years. here is what we do know right now. we know mueller's investigation is effectively over. there are no more indictments coming from a the special council's office according to a senior spokesman who spoke to nbc. and any who have not yet been charged are in the clear, it seems with now. the special koens was originally tasked with looking into russian interference in the 2016 election. from that, there have been open questions about whether donald trump or anybody on his campaign colluded with russia. those questions remain unanswered. but it is significant. and potentially telling that robert mueller ended his investigation without charging anybody in trump's orbit, with conspiracy. there's also the open question of obstruction. did president trump intentionally try to hamper the investigation? we don't know if this report
will address that. the white house has not yet reviewed the document, and it is possible there is something in there that the president will not want to be released to the public. if so, that won't sit well with congressional democrats who are currently holding a conference call on their next steps. they are ready for a fight, they say, with the white house over the public release of the full report. it is anyone's guess as to how that will end, and how much of the report will be seen outside of washington. joining me now is nbc news justice and national security reporter from julia ainsley. from the white house, geoff bennett. keefe operations also for ets risk management, former counterintelligence at the fbi and msnbc frank valussi. and cynthia oxley.
julia, you have been standing outside of that building it seems for many days. we know that attorney general barr and rod rosenstein are in there working. >> it seems like breakneck speed to get it on a friday afternoon and turn it around on the weekend. the time line they gave to congress that it can be done as soon as this weekend. we're not pacing for it to come out for tomorrow. thinking they're just looking for more things but when it does come out, we still expect it to be broad strokes, trying to answer the big questions on collusion. and draws the main conclusions that special counsel robert mueller clearly can get into declaration decisions. this is the part that might be more of a holdup. they're going to have to decide how much they can release in the summary that gets into why robert mueller did not prosecute some individuals in the trump
campaign orbit. so that can be taking longer. but still, they can meet their weekend deadline and get it out tomorrow. so, we'll be right here tomorrow to see what happens next. >> julia, do you know if we're hearing anything about obstruction in the report, or will it be confined to the question of conspiracy or collusion? >> we don't know that. we just really take apart every piece of this letter from yesterday. and it seems like they want to get into the broad conclusions and who not to prosecute. there will possibly be a review of people who have all right been indicted. i think there could be internal debates into what exactly they put into this now. but the big debates is in deciding what information they think is in the public interest. and the attorney general said he would consult with robert mueller and rod rosenstein as he lays that out. but really take some of the heat
off of him so he isn't seen as the filter between the public and the statement. and of course when we get this report, maybe tomorrow that goes to congress, we will get the exact same thing in realtime. there's no daylight between what congress cease tomorrow and what the public will also find out possibly tomorrow. >> that is interesting. because initially, it was just going to go to congress and congress would decide what was released to the public. and this was a new development with that, geoff bennett, you're at the white house, the president is in palm beach, he's in mar-a-lago, do we have any reaction from the president himself? he's been unusually quiet. >> yeah, uncharacteristic silent. i'm today, katy, that that is by design. the president actually heeding the advise of advisers saying take it down a notch. they're actually taking the lack of indictments as good news as the president's team as we all
do, wait to find out what mueller's conclusions are. they're asking the president to help not make the issue worse by staying on twitter. but sarah sanders saying from the white house, they are trying to keep their distance from this report. they're not directly involved in the doj and the communications from the doj and congress. she put out a tweet yesterday that they have not seen the report, they've not been briefed on it and today, we're told that tweet is still actionable. >> what do you make of bill ar in saturday doj, trying to make as much of this as possible public? >> well, i'm heartfelt and heartened that they're trying to make as much public as possible. but i recognize and i think people should know that generally, these types of things when they're released. they don't include sexy
material, they don't include counterintelligence material. you don't include them. so, for example, if they make the comment yes, we think don junior was involved but we don't think it rose to the level of conspiracy they just don't include him in the report that they release publicly. so, we may find there's not a lot of meat on the bones when it goes to congress. the civil rights division where i used to work did make exceptions in the public interest. those are rare, as they did in the ferguson case and the mlk case. but that is in the works for a while before it actually happens. and they also have to go to a federal judge to get the approval. so, we're a long way from actually seeing the meat of this report. >> frank, what do you think of -- how much do you think hillary clinton and what james comey did factor into how this is going to play out. hillary clinton was not charged,
james comey did not recommend charges to her to the doj. is that going to play a role and that whole political meal -- melee that ensued? >> i think we'd be kidding ourselves if we is he mueller wasn't well aware of the decision making. prematurely saying no one will prosecute this and then coming back and saying we opened the case. so it led to the discussion, can you, should you taint somebody if you aren't going to charge them. the answer is, no, you should not. i think mueller is painfully aware that he doesn't want a legacy of tainting a sitting president when there's nothing there that you can actually charge. but on the other hand, let's remember something that distinguishes this from the other cases which is this is a counterintelligence case. so if you're applying criminal standards into what you can
release. if you're going to say, well, we're not going to talk about our findings because it doesn't reach a criminal threshold that's a mistake because this is answering a counterintelligence question. what did russia do with us? and to what extent was our president involved in that? and that's not criminal. and what i'm watching carefully for is what i'm going to call a speaking declination. mr. president, we have good news, the good news, we chose not to seek your indictment. the bad news is, we're going to explain everything we found and it's going to be really, really ugly. >> so you're on the lookout for that, you think we could end up with something along those lines? >> i think if we look at mueller's strategy to speak to us through indictments which were incredibly detailing, why wouldn't he explain his declination. and the declination.
saying this is what i found but congress may look at those findings and say well, you may not be indicting him, but we're going to take action. >> well, that's going to set up action between the white house and congress, potentially geoff bennett, the white house has refused to work with congress in handing over documents. there was a reporting yesterday from the daily beast that they were basically going to tell congressional committees to go f themselves the word of a senior official that spoke to daily beast, not my words. if this ends up in a circumstance where you have someone like adam schiff who says, i want all of the intel information because it's important to the work of my committee and the white house says absolutely not. or doj says absolutely not, is there a plan in place, are they considering that as a potential option? >> they are, katy. look, i'm told in the view of
people connected to the white house council's office is their view of all of this is bring it. they don't think that these sums for information that could fall subject to executive privilege will hold up in court. so that is what accounts for this phrase, i'll use a different euphemism, telling democrats to take a long walk off a short cliff. even though they do recognize, the democratic members of congress do have an oversight responsibility. but commitically spe but the white house believes that will end up helping president trump but moderate voters that don't pay that close attention to the news. >> and they're essentially going to use it in 2020 to campaign on, look at this presidential harassment, look at this, i'm the victim here, is that still what they can do for this report for 2020, geoff?
>> absolutely. we saw just this week on the south lawn, s ka calculated and we saw him try to cast robert mueller as the leader of this soft coup. this unelected leader trying to rise and take down the president. trying to trash the millions of votes that he says he got. that is not why coincidence. i'm told the president it testing it out as he gets ready to hit the trail. >> soo >> i spoke to some in the campaign who feel relieved and they feel like this whole thing has ended. i'm looking at a text message, it's a joke form of mark safe from robert mueller today. i spoke with somebody else that said the whole thing was bs all along and they were not treated
fairly. someone whose name comes up often. are these people right to feel vindicated? are they right to feel relieved? >> you have to divide things up. if you look at the conspiracy and the obstruction, those people under trump are right to be relieved. only under conspiracy and obstruction. there's no reason why trump should be relieved. we have no way. there's no way bob mueller was going to indict him even though we had an intellectual discussion can you indict a sitting president. that was not an intellectual conversation for the likes of robert mueller because he is not. and he's a rule follower. it could be critical. it could be hypercritical. and it could be something that he would be indicted but for the fact that he's the president when we get the report. so there's no reason for trump to feel anything good about it at all. and the rest of the people who are doing better who can feel
relieved when it comes to on strugz a obstruction and conspiracy, most of them have transparency in the u.s. attorney's office in d.c. >> and my question, julia, how much more are we going to see in terms of actions from the other districts? we saw just the other day paul manafort get sentenced. and the day he gets sentenced in d.c., he also gets hit with another indictment from attorneys or prosecutors in new york. >> yeah, let's just look at the time line for court hearings for the rest of this year. we know in just a couple months, we'll see rick gates, paul manafort's deputy, we know he was a key cooperating witness in this. no more lingering over that whether that will lead to more indictments from robert mueller because that's over. but then we have in november, the trial of roger stone which could bring up a lot of embarrassing moments for this president and his campaign. we'll also be looking at the
southern district of new york. in may, michael cohen will go to prison. another key cooperator, someone who used to fight a lot against the president. and you have the new york attorney general who has filed indictments against cohen. there's so many different pieces of this, the stormy daniels hutch money payment, there's more to come. it's not just that the president is out of the legal hot water, but perhaps he might be cleared from conspiracy charges from the mueller report. >> and the strategy at the white house is the bar so high if they don't find direct collusion or conspiracy that everything else will look like they were just fishing for something to get him on. whether that will be successful with voters ultimately is going to be the test because it looks like with nancy pelosi's bar will be raised on whether they will be impeached that this will ultimately be decided by 2020 voters.
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welp, someone should. just say "teach me more" into your voice remote and see how you can have an even better x1 experience. simple. easy. awesome. welcome back. joining knee now is congressman t.e.d. lou. thank you for joining us. i know you're going to jump on this 3:00 p.m. with house democrats right after you talk to us. what do you expect to be discussing there? >> thank you, katy, for your question. let me first say that americans should be proud of this historic moments despite numerous attempts by robert mueller to have his investigation thwarted by the president, he was able to complete it on his own terms. it shows there are systems held and institutions are strong. and now the american people need to see this report. i was on an earlier call with house judiciary dems and i've
been updated and briefed. right now, we're waiting for the summary, and we're waiting for the entire report. >> what can you tell us about that call you had earlier? >> for one thing, house democrats have sent over house preservation documents to the department of justice. we'll make sure that all documents are preserved in the event we need to see those documents. and special counsel robert mueller has a narrow mission, his mission was did he find enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that someone admitted a crime mostly related to russia. congressional committees want to know did donald trump or his family or associates commit any crime and whether or not it amounted to a crime? >> you're saying you want to see any information that could lead to impeachment? >> we want to know so we can show the american people what donald trump and his associates may or may not have done. we don't know what's in the report.
it may say it exonerates donald trump or we would have indicted him, but for the fact that he's president. we need to know so congress can fulfill their oversight missions. >> and what kind of report will be acceptable or is anything less than the entire report and the supporting documentation unacceptable? >> the department of justice has two rules. one is you can't indict a sitting president. second rule is if you don't indict someone you can't say anything about them. that means we'll basically get a summary that says nothing about donald trump. we'll wait to see the entire report and then the american people which paid for this report can make a decision. >> let me read part of the letter warning the doj that this policy could be used as a pretext for cover-up of misconduct if congress doesn't see the entire thing. this was sent by a number of chairs of democratic committees to the doj. it says the president must be
subject to accountability. because the justice department maintains that a sitting president cannot be indicted, to then withhold evidence of wrongdoing from congress because a sitting president cannot be charged is to convert the justice department policy into the means for a cover-up. anything less than full transparency would raise serious question about whether or not the department of justice policy is being used as a pretext for for a cover-up of misconduct. are you saying that in this letter, are democrats saying that they believe there is misconduct there? and that if they don't hear about it, if it's not released, then doj will be part of a cover-up? >> that is basically what we're saying because the department of justice doesn't provide us the full report and take the position they can't indict a sitting president and then basically we're not going to get any information. congress is now the only institution that can hold the president accountable because of
the doj policy that they will not seek to indict a sitting president. we need to know all of the facts. >> are you concerned about the trust of our institution? the president has systematically been trying to tear down the trust of the doj and law enforcement both in interviews and in twitter. if the democrats aren't accepting of whatever robert mueller finds, are you concerned that the democrats might be doing more to harm the institution alongside the president than help build it back up? >> so, you raise a very good pointed question. let me say that the president did in fact attack this investigation and the special counsel and law enforcement. and despite all of those attacks, we had a republican-led investigation in a republican-controlled department of justice to investigate a republican president that was allowed to conclude. that shows to me that our institutions are very strong. and as democrats -- let me say just for myself. i will honor what robert mueller says in this report.
but we actually need to see what the report says. >> so, you want to see the documentation because potentially you don't trust william barr? >> it's not that i don't trust william barr. based on william barr's confirmation hearings, it was clear to me that he was not willing to provide a full report to congress. i hope he's wrong on that. i hope he does provide the full report to the american people but we need to see the information and materials. >> congressman ted lieu, thank you for that. and neal casio says this is the beginning of the beginning, not the beginning of the end. that's next. it's probably gonna be dinner and drinks. discover. hi, what's this social security alert? it's a free alert if we find your social security number on the dark web.
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just last week the house of representatives passed a unanimous resolution 420 to zero to make the findings of the mueller report public. now that it is in the hands of attorney general william barr, those calls have gotten louder. joining me now msnbc reporter mike emily. mike, a little news from ted lieu saying that democrats have asked to provide all of the documentation from of the mueller report? >> that's right. i'm sitting in the chair trying
to update my sources with what's happening on one of the two conference calls that house democrats are have. the judiciary committee including ted lieu and the same being the full caucus call. why doll i need my resources when i just watched the great interview with ted lieu. what he says, the house judiciary committee is sending letters to the justice department to make sure they preserve any and all documents related to the special counsel probe. the word you hear quite often right now is transparency. democrats don't want the justice department to be setting the tone for what the public knows about the mueller report. they want to see it all for themselves. so, this is part of an effort by the democrats to ensure, that as they continue with the multiple investigations they've launched not just the judiciary committee, the intelligence committee and other committees,
the summary that attorney general barr provides for them is not the last word that they have an opportunity to make additional information public. >> and with democrats a lot of them are on capitol hill, a lot at their home districts are they getting the information quickly, or do they believe that they have to act quickly or do they have to figure out what can be released and that mueller is still there and still available to be consulted? what's the feeling? >> i will say, there is some concern among democrats that the expectations game is already being lost here. it's important to note, our colleague alex moe, the great producer who i work with every day on capitol hill, she heard that there was a leadership call among house republicans last night, and they were cautiously optimistic, based on the very little information so far one important piece of information we got last night which is that
there were going to be no additional indictments from the special council and his team. what democrats are now working to ensure to that the public understands that the special counsel probe was a narrow one. obviously, his charge was to look into special collusion between the trump campaign and russian officials. potentially also on frukz obstr justice. there is concern that the republicans will be able to point to mueller and say nothing else to see here. >> let me ask you about something what happened a couple weeks ago, nancy pelosi telling a report with "the washington post" that impeachment isn't on the table. she's going to wait to see robert mueller's report but ultimately, she thinks impeachment is a really high bar and there would need to be consensus in congress and a bipartisan support of reports for impeachment. is there any talk of those words now that the mueller report is
in bill barr's hands? >> i think the pressure is still on house democrats across the board. among their own base, obviously, there is great concern with what the president is doing, but what nancy pelosi, speaker of the house was trying to do it give a release valve to those new members of congress up in tough districts to take the heat off of impeachment as an issue. it's interesting, it's a difficult game for democrats to play. i spoke to number three democrat in the house in north carolina, jim clyburn, in the same space where he compared president trump to hitler, he said he and his family represent the greatest threat to our country. he then had to return to pelosi's words that impeachment is not a step willing to take. >> greatest threat since hitler but impeachment is not a step we're willing to take next. thank you. >> the man who wrote the rule said robert mueller's report
marks the beginning of the beginning. here's more. >> what happened today is really the close of a chapter of the mueller investigation piece. and now mueller is kind of like a relay racer handing off the baton to other folks. to congress, to state attorneys general. to the southern district of new york, to other prosecutors to investigation other things. >> with me now tom winter, paul charlton and msnbc analyst and former special assistant to president obama ned price. so beginning of the beginning, not the end? >> that's right. that's what we're about to find out. the mueller investigation has concluded and that's all i can say. we don't have the summary, i would say, yet from william barr. and then there's obviously going to be a fight in an effort to
get a lot of this -- a lot of this made public. a lot of it unredacted. you know, so we can read any sort of underlying documents that came with the report from mueller. and the attorney general in fairness has already stated hey, i want to work with special counsel robert mueller and rod roanestone, the deputy attorney general to see if we can make smis informati this public. for the last 635 days that hallie jackson put together, yes, this is the beginning. >> there are a number of documents in the district of virginia and sdny potentially? >> i'm not aware of any currently sealed indictments. i think the folks have pointed to the idea that there's a sealed indictment involving julian assange. but we're not convinced of that. >> that necessarily has to do with robert mueller's
investigation. >> the special counsel's office has stated no more indictments. >> no more indictments in the special counsel's report. are we sure they have not -- >> that's a great point. they definitely passed on investigations. i think a couple of investigations to watch. obviously what's happening in new york as it relates to the trump inaugural. the second watch is the certain individuals in the trump organization that's ongoing there. we still have this idea of official straw donations and actually a person has been charged and pleaded guilty with arranging straw donations into the trump inaugural. that's a case out of washington, d.c. that i think you were alluding to. and that investigation is ongoing. whether or not the trump inaugural committee knew about that. that's a big question. we'll have to see more about that. and then there's some additional investigations and some other questions from other trials. for instance, a bank that was involved with paul manafort an idea of quid quo pro there.
will we here more about that from new york out of that office. i think there are some things to watch going forward. >> ned, what are you watching out for? >> katy i think the most interesting development that has yet to drop is the counterintelligence element of this. i think we've talked about the criminal aspect of this. we've talked a lot about the indictments that have come from this, the charges have come both to americans and russians. but we have to jen the genesis of the mueller investigation and that's the counterintelligence investigation. what is most interesting to me is knowing that there is often a difference between criminality and impropriety. especially when it comes to counterintelligence investigations. it is exceedingly rare for criminal charges to stem from counterintelligence investigations. as the saying goes, the juice is not often worth the squeeze in going forward with the prosecution when it comes to an issue of national security, of state secrets of counterintelligence aspects. prosecutors often have to put forward information that would
be helpful to our adversaries. information that would reveal sources and methods. information that would speak to what we know of the tactics and techniques and procedures that foreign governments and foreign intelligence service as apply against american citizens all over the world. so adam schiff has very astutely reminded the justice department that this committee, by statute, by law, has to be kept fully and currently inform of all intelligence activities and that includes counterintelligence. so his committee may well learn what mueller uncovered in this. i think the open question is how much the american people will learn because of classification concerns. >> paul, where will you be looking to someone like adam schiff and the intelligence committee for more answers? and again we don't know what we can see because it's a matter of national intelligence? or are you looking at other venues and court district what is can come next?
>> i think, katy, the easiest answer is, yes, all of the above. we know from the original mandate that bob mueller received, there were essentially two tasks. first, determine, what if any, determination was given to the russian government and the trump campaign. second, prosecute any crimes that arise out of that investigation. we already know, we think we're done with the prosecution piece of this. it is now the determining issue for all of us to learn what was the counterintelligence piece. and that may be at the end of the day some of the most difficult information to share broadly with all of us, the public. so adam schiff is a great place to begin. let's see what the house intelligence committee actually determined here and to what degree they can share that. i'd add, too, it's correct to say there are so many agencies still looking at this information. in a white collar world, katy, if you're not prosecuted and there are a number of individuals who were not prosecuted as a result of this
mueller investigation, that's a victory for them. but it's a little too early for any of those individuals to be celebrating but they may have won the battle but yet to win the war. >> gentlemen, thank you for your time today. up next, 2020 candidates are on the trail. what are they saying about the mueller report?
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kama lla harris. leann, this is not an issue that democrats ran on in 2018. the mueller report or the mueller investigation. kind of an open question how democrats are going to use it for 2020, considering all of the other issues at top of the mind for voters. what are you hearing there, both from the candidates and from the voters? is the mueller report something that is being talked about among people attending these political rallies? >> katy, so this is the fourth event that we are at with book er today. people are just starting to stream in. it's going to start any moment. and so far, booker has not voluntary talked about the mueller report, although we do ask him about it at a barbershop earlier today where he said the mueller report should be relieved and he also called for mueller to come before the committee to testify about the report and the investigation.
and he also said this is an important moment in american democracy. and we have a clip of that and what he said. >> reporter: do you think the report should be subpoenaed if it is not released? >> i'm going to say very clearly i believe it should be releasei believe at this moment of history, barr is going to understand this is a moment where he confirmed and can support the integrity of our government and retour people's faith in the system. i think people have their eyes on him that he can do the right thing and release the report. obviously, the appropriate aspects of national security and personal information redacted but he should release the report to the public. >> reporter: so, katy, booker has taken about 12 to 15 questions from voters today throughout date. and only one person asked him about the mueller report. but he'll say what i talk to voters and i bring it up, every single voter that i talk to says
it needs to be released. while it may not be top of mind for voters here in south carolina at this point. they are on the side of booker and of democrats who say there needs to be transparency and people need to know what's in it. katy. >> leann caldwell, thank you. hans nichols, same question, what are you hearing? >> reporter: well, look, it's a similar dynamic here in houston with kamala harris. she didn't bring up mueller in the preliminary remarks. she wanted to focus on education and the teacher pay gap. when i caught up and asked her about it, she wants people to know that not just bob barr and people in congress but that underlying documents are made available. i notice you that didn't mention mueller today. why didn't you? >> well, i mean, listen, there's a bunch of things i could have mentioned. but the bottom line is we've got to see the report. i believe that there's no question the american people not only have an interest but a need to see everything that's in that report.
i believe that barr needs to come before congress and testify. and that we should have available the underlying evidence that supports that report. >> reporter: katy, kamala is taking a very incremental approach. she's a former prosecutor. she wants to make sure she gathers all of the facts. and in terms who she is calling for to testify. first william barr. i pressed her on this and said what about mueller himself? she said let's start with barr and then maybe move to mueller. let's the idea of taking it step-by-step and then making a judgment. it's clear that senator harris wanted the focus on education. she doesn't want the mueller association to cloud her ability to connect with voters. >> thank you guys very much. still ahead, republicans stay it vindicates the president, while democrats want to use it to launch more investigations. the politics of the mueller
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about it. on the right, many in the gop say no further indictments from mueller means there was no russia collusion. while many on the left are looking to past collusion to other potential crimes committed by the president or his inner circle. joining me, to former director of strategic communicationings for hillary clinton, adrien l. rob, and msnbc contributor susan del persio. we're at an inflection point and what bill barr sends to congress and the public. i wonder how the public is going to react if his summary of the principal findings don't line up with whatever they believed they would find. adrien, are you in a position to trust whatever bill barr sends out from robert mueller? >> you know, that's a hard question to answer, katie, as a democratic strategist, because this is attorney general barr's first big test in his position.
i think the only way that i can trust whatever he sends over to congress is if he sends over the full report and if that full report is released. we can't have, you know, bits and pieces here and there that people can cherry-pick and cobble together to form their own narrative. it's got to be released in full. i think that is the most important thing that he can do right now to ensure that he's trustworthy in the eyes of the american people. >> do you agree or disagree? >> there's no way it can be sent over in full. they can't send over grand jury testimony, sources and methods are covered. there's also security issues at hand. so it could be sent over to some of the members of congress who sit on the intel community, for example, but i trust it. i have to. that's what -- you know, i was one of those people out there, let's see what mueller says before we come to a conclusion. what i think is interesting are those republicans who say make sure everything in there is made public because it's quite possible that mueller said you know what, i found enough to go against the president but we do
not -- our policy is not to indict a current president. so who knows? but i think one thing is clear, and we said this when the democrats took control of the house, keep on target with your investigation, let mueller do his job. mueller's report will come out, we're going to get the information, but the house members on oversight and intel and judiciary will all continue their process. >> the argument from donald trump's orbit has been that they were not organized enough to possibly collude with russia. i followed the campaign, and that argument is one that holds water, notwithstanding all of the smoke and the unexplainable moments where donald trump would ask russia to find e-mails. those certainly were out of the blue and very questionable. if it comes to bob mueller saying essentially that they were sloppy and that they definitely benefited from russia's help, they didn't collude with them, is that
something that democrats should be willing to accept? or is it something that democrats will use in the 2020 political campaign to say just because, i don't know, just because you didn't collude doesn't mean you didn't benefit and benefiting is just as bad? i don't know. >> yeah, katie, i think you're exactly right, and i think democrats have no choice but to accept the findings in the mueller investigation as truth and move on. as susan just mentioned, congress has -- there are five committees of oversight, if you count financial services, looking into a litany of issues in donald trump's orbit. to the point you just made, you covered this campaign extensively, you were on the donald trump beat and you know you weren't exactly dealing with the most experienced campaign operatives over there. if the mueller report finds yes to what you just said, there was some sloppy dealings when it came to, you know, some of the ways they handled the russia -- their relationship with certain people in russia, if the mueller report does find there was no
direct collusion, we all have to accept it and move on and allow congress to continue its oversight function. >> the president has done a good job raising the bar to anything short of any evidence of donald trump on the phone with vladimir putin and colluding is going to mean that this entire investigation wasn't worth the time and was just a witch-hunt, as he has claimed. >> that's what's really scary to me right now is you have about half of the country willing to say donald trump, it was a witch-hunt, look at it, they found nothing, and then there's another group of people who are going to say, well, we can't really trust the mueller report because we knew there was chugs, we can't really go by what they're releasing, and not to have the faith in the institutions on either side is really troubling because that's right now what we face as a country. >> we all have to do some thinking about that. susan, adrienne, thank you. and our special coverage of the mueller report will continue after the break. but first a quick programming
note. tonight at 6:00 p.m., a special nighttime edition of "a.m. joy" with joy reid and ari melber with a special look at the mueller report starting at 7:00 p.m. tomorrow, ari will break down what it all means and what comes next. watch that special coverage tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. we'll be right back. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. flonase.
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p.m. in washington, where attorney general william barr and deputy attorney general rod rosenstein have spending their saturday at the justice department. they're working on a summary of the mueller report that could be delivered as early as tomorrow. we don't yet know what it will say, but we already have answers to some of the questions that have lingered as the investigation was wrapping up. we now know that robert mueller was not willing to compel in-person testimony from president trump, instead accepting written answers from the president and his lawyers. we also know that there will be no new indictments from the special counsel's office, although that doesn't necessarily rule out action from prosecutors in any other districts like the sdny or the edba. and we know that mueller indicted 34 people and entities over the past two years. those are significant court actions which should not be taken for granted. what we don't know is where mueller landed on the q