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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  April 10, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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country's capital named after him. the second thing to remember about the visit. it was clear to those joining us that president macron knew a lot more about the place's history and the countries than the guy hosting him. that's "hardball" for now. all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight on all in. >> has anyone seen any of the report? >> i'm landing the plane right now. >> the attorney general throws gasoline on a trump conspiracy theory as he keeps the mueller report under wraps. >> i think there is a spying that did occur. >> the start of a world world county offensive to investigate the investigators. >> this was an attempted coup. >> we never had a policy for family separation. >> some anyone be able to rehab their image after implementing this cruel agenda. when democrats faced big pharma,
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democrats face big banks. >> if you believe that your likely successor will be a woman or a person of color, would you kindly extend a hand into the air. >> the democrats took on climate deniers in congress. >> you serious? this is really a serious happening here? >> you know what? it is serious. >> all in starts right now. good evening from new york. many before him tried to failed to do. attempting to serve two masters much the president interest and the president of the united states. when push comes to shove, there is no question where barr's priorities lie. back for a second day in a row where he tried to restore faith amidst an information vacuum of
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his own dpleacreation because h won't let them see it. barr said the report is being redacted with input and he will make a good faith effort to get the information they need. >> i intend to take up with the house and the senate judiciary committees, the chairman and ranking member of each. what other areas they have a need to have access to the information and see if i can work to accommodate as has been correctly said here. the fact that information is classified does not mean that congress can't see it. >> that was not the headline from the attorney general's appearance. no, no, no. the big news is that barr is conducting his own review in addition to the by the inspector general of how the probe into the trump campaign got started. >> i think spying on a political campaign is a big deal.
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it's a big deal. >> you are not suggesting though that spying occurred? >> i don't -- well, i guess you could -- i think spying did occur, yes. i think spying did occur. >> well, let me -- >> the question is whether it was predicated. adequately predicated and i'm not suggesting it was, but i need to explore that. >> okay. it's clear from the context that barr meant spying in a neutral sense. you can see him puzzle over that word. the question was whether it was adequately predicate and did they undertake the surveillance because there was a reason to? there was no evidence to suggest it did not. barr so happened to use the same sinister-sounding word used by the president and his allies as a short hand for the experience theory about so-called efforts to frame the trump campaign spy
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game. remember the tweet more than two years ago that president obama had his wires tabbed in trump tower? that is bogus and unfounded claim was a basis for ever expanding web of conspiracy theories known as spy gate with carter page and george papadopoulos and devin nunez and trump and undermine the mueller probe and attack political opponents. when the attorney general, the country's most senior official used the word spying, these were the resulting headlines. this is what barr did for his boss today. gave him ammunition for a political battle with the stamp of approval from the u.s. department of justice. >> this was an attempted coup. this was an attempted take down of a president. we beat them. we beat them. what i'm most interested in is getting started, hopefully the attorney general mentioned it yesterday. he's doing a great job.
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getting started ongoing back to the rjs of exactly where this all started. >> nancy pelosi took time out of the democratic retreat in virginia to talk about barr's testimony. >> let me just say how very, very display o maying and disappointing that the chief law enforcement officer of our country is going off the rails. yesterday and today. he is attorney general of the united states of america, not the attorney general of donald trump. >> joined by two former federal prosecutors, the deep understanding of the nonpolitical role, harry litman from the western district and a former deputy assistant attorney general. carol lam is from the southern district of california and former superior court judge in
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san diego. you can see barr wrestling with himself in the moment. the idea that he is going to under take a review of the origins of the probe that has been a point of partisan contention for a while. what does it say about the independence for the department of justice under his watch? >> the one thing that did surprise me is attorney general bar seemed sort of surprised that people were taken aback by the word spy. it didn't seem to register with him that that was a hot button word to use. he did eventually sort of change that into surveillance and then he said it is concern was whether the surveillance was predicated. i think it doesn't surprise me, given what barr had written in the past given the role of the president. it doesn't surprise me that he would say well, if the president wants me to open an investigation or at least take a
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look into whether something improper happened, i will do that. whether he calls balls and strikes appropriately when he looks at what's actually there. so he did say i'm going to wait for the inspector general report and see what it says and we will take it from there. none of that is that unusual, but he seemed not to appreciate what the word spy suggested there. >> here is what is unusual to me. it's not necessarily actions at the department of justice, but the context of the president berating, bullying and insulting his former attorney general because he didn't do what he wanted. barr, knowing this is one of several things the president wants. he wants to be exonerated in the public mind with respect to the mueller report and gave him something to say that and people to think there is a deep seeded experience out to get him. he gave him that. it's a question of whether you can trust barr as an independent
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arbiter given the forces from 1600 pennsylvania. >> it is. it is unusual. you it take it from what he said or what he's doing. there would have been 20 ways to put it better including nothing at all. no comment other than perhaps i will look at it. it's a charged word. he knows it's a charged word. it blogged a grenade into a political mine field. i take carol's point. there is a way of seeing it as bland and straight forward, looking at procedures. that's not what the attorney general would normally do. if he wants the ig report, that suggests he wants the facts and a whole reexamination of the bogus charges involving mccabe and the like. that can only inflame a political squabble that the doj has no business being in. it's not in barr's interest to be in.
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>> here's the thing, carol. there are good faith interpretations of his actions and bad faith. the bad faith from the white house is given. the pressure from the white house is given. we know what they want and they do not report the independence of the department. i want to get your reaction to what he said when asked whether the white house had seen the report which would not be improper. it would be fairly standard, but he gave a weird squirrely answer yesterday and another today. >> has anyone in the white house seen any of the report? >> i'm not going to -- i'm landing the plane right now and i have been willing to discuss my, my, my letters and the process going forward, but the report is going to be out next week and i'm just not going to get into the details of the process until the plane is on the ground. >> what did you think, carol? >> one thing is perfectly clear here. that's that politics and
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criminal law enforcement make terrible bed fellows. it's true now. it was hard for me to tell whether bill barr was saying i'm not going down this rabbit hole and i'm going to stop this now. it would have been easy to say no, they haven't seen it, particularly since he said he was not going to submit the report for executive privilege review. he decided not to talk any further on it. i don't know what to conclude from that. if they are not going to review it for executive privilege, i don't really know if it's that much concern frankly. they are not going to hold up the process of getting what they can to congress. >> for seems that you should just answer it. again, if you say yeah, they want a privileged review and you are entitled to that, you can say that. >> you certainly could. it could be in the context of the hearing. at some point he was going to stonewall them and that was the
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point as carol says. it isn't necessarily sinister and all these questions will await and be so much more lum nated. the bigger stuff about the mueller report is the revelation that mueller, from the time he told barr he was not going to bottom line has been completely out of the process. barr takes it on himself and doesn't even consult with him and this was astonishing. he doesn't know how mueller feel about that. that makes it seem like a complete move by barr that is strange. i'm not sure that will be explained on tuesday. we should know a lot about mueller's decision, however. >> harry litman and carol lam. my next join is richard
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blumenthal. a member of the senate judiciary committee. the rnc support an e-mail out that said the hunters become the hunted. rnc e-mail highlighted the spying comment, the hunters become the hunted. what does that say, do you think, about what happened today? >> what it says, chris, very clearly, is that the barr initiative and it was his doing on his own, using the word spying was a dog whistle. firefighters a shout out to the far right ecosystem and to the false trump narrative about his being the victim, not the perpetrator and the republican national committee will use this clip in ads. hard to see how this could not have been a calculated step by william barr because this term is so incendiary and so loaded, no professional would ever use
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it. the person who authorized the warrants sits down the hall from him. rod rosenstein. he depends on rosenstein as having concurred with his four-page summary of the mueller report. this kind of feeding the narrative, i think was a calculated decision. >> you had an exchange with someone before your committee. deputy attorney general jeffrey rosen about sort of ensuring the independence to the department of justice even if he were to be confirmed. i want to ask what you came away from that exchange with. take a listen. >> will you commit to this committee and the united states congress that you will protect the ongoing investigations in the southern district of new york and the eastern district of new york from any interference by the white house, either to fire or discipline members of those united states attorneys
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offices? >> i think what i would say about that is what i said before. i see and i think to check mr. chairman graham alluded to this. there is different functions in the department and the function with regard to law enforcement investigations and prosecutions is one that needs to be free of improper political influences from any source. that includes congress as well as any other source. >> i agree. will you commit that you will protect any attempt to interfere in the ongoing investigations to fire a united states attorney and discipline anyone in those offi offices, to remove anyone from those conversations and otherwise interfere with investigations of the president of the united states who has been named as an unindicted coconspirator, individual number one. >> i don't think i can do better than what i just said before. i think what i said before is accurate. you embedded additional things
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that i'm not addressing. >> i'm not inventing anything, mr. rosen. i'm stating what the facts are and the need for the independence and integrity of the department of justice. >> is that lawyerly carefulness on mr. rosen's part or something other than that? >> it left me with less than full confidence in his backbone and his determination to stand up to the president of the united states. you said at the outset of this show, the question here really is about law enforcement, the independence of our justice system. is mr. rosen has a long and varied career. that's what he calmed i ee ee e. none of it as a prosecutor and none of it making decisions about how to defend his lying prosecutors. i'm left with the impression that the differently justice will serve as the roy cohen for
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this administration and that the attorney general and his deputy are consig liaries more than the people of the united states. >> senator richard blumenthal from the senate judiciary committee, thank you very much for your time. >> breaking news on the request for the president's tax returns. steve mnuchin is not ready to comply with the law. he informed the house ways and means committee that the treasury department will not meet the deadline to turn over the last six years of tax returns by today's deadline. he said he was consulting in a request he called unprecedented added that it raises issues of constitutional scope of investigative authority, legitimacy of the constitutional rights of american citizens. the legal implications could protect all americans from personal tax information
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regardless of the party in power. david kay johnson has been reporting on d.c. report.org, the news site he founded. what do you make of the response? >> this is totally what we expected and it's completely false. the law is crystal clear and the reasons that richie neal set forward for requesting the returns fall under the oversight functions of congress. we should look at this as part of what donald trump said today. there is an attempted coup. there is an attempted coup and it's by donald trump. he has to bring law enforcement to his heels. the thing jim comey would not give him to run over the law and evade responsibility and impose his personal will everywhere in this government. >> there is a sort of interesting thing happening
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here. that's that the president has been clear he is not going to give this over. there is no mention of an audit in the mnuchin letter. what do you make of that. >> first of all, there is no evidence there is an audit. he won't even provide the audit notice. that can be of a gift tax return that he gave a gift to one of his grandchildren. there is no reason to think there is anything there, but the statute has nothing to do with audits. once you sign your tax return under penalty of perjury, you can't change it. you live with what you sign. donald trump twice lost civil tax fraud trials and confessed to being a sales tax cheat. he knows if his tax returns get examined outside of the irs, he's got serious problems. that's why he is so desperate to cover up. as part of his effort to ex-at
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the present time to the government. >> there was a diplomatic statement by the chair and representative neal concluding i will consult with counsel in the coming days because he is preparing himself for litigation. there is something else that has been preposterous. we all know that's the position of government. mnuchin is pretending to consult when we all know what the consultation is. >> they are trying to delay, delay, delay. fabricate and mislead the public. millions of americans out there believe that donald trump is under siege by all sorts of horrible people. they have good reasons to be upset and concerned because of the things in our economy that we are not giving attention to and the people in fact factories and things like that. their policy is to mislead the
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public about arcane and obtuse and critically important to our country issues. that's all they are trying to do. richie neal who knows economics and is a former high school economics teacher is being judicious and cautious and wants to go through the first federal court judge and not have any lint on his case. >> david kay johnson, the legendary tax reporter, thank you very much. up next, house democrats confront dug company execs about the spike in insulin prices as americans ration medicine to stay alive. don't go away. icine to stay alive don't go away. ♪ turn up your swagger game with one a day gummies. medicine to stay alive. don't go away. s americans ration medicine to stay alive don't go away. ...once a day... ...with nutrients that support 6 vital functions... ...and one healthy you. that's the power of one a day. we really pride ourselvesglass, on making it easy to get your windshield fixed. with safelite, you can see exactly when we'll be there.
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like never before store. the xfinity store is here. and it's simple, easy, awesome. 26-year-olds are not supposed to die because they don't have insulin. without insurance, alex smith couldn't afford the $1300 a month to control his diabetes so he tried rationing his insulin, empty vials found near his body. >> across the country, 7 million
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people depend on insulin to survive and many take desperate measures to get the medicine as costs skyrocketing. some traveling to mexico to get it at a far lower cost than in the united states. it nearly doubled from 2012 to 2016 to a cost of more than $57-00. some pay far more and many reported a big price spike in just the last two years. in four patients skimpied because of high cost. it's an acute crisis that donald trump has done little about. house republicans are warning drug companies not cooperate with a house democrat-led investigation into drug prices which are the highest in the world. it's against this backdrop that democrats on oversight and investigations convened a second hearing on the rising cost of insulin with manufacturers of insulin in the largest benefit managers. the chair is democrat diana
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diget from colorado and she joins me to chair what she learned. what did you learn? >> we learned that insulin prices have been going up and everyone in the system is to blame. the pharmaceutical companies are setting the list prices really high. it doubled in the last few years, but in the 10 years before that, it tripled before that. these list prices are going up higher and higher. everybody in the distribution system takes a cut of the list price. the pharmacy benefit manager who is are negotiating with the insurance companies take a cut. the insurance companies take a cut. the wholesalers take a cut. everybody takes a cut and that is pressuring the price to go up and up. >> i don't understand because this is not -- sometimes you will see famously the martin ska
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rely who had the aids drug and only one manufacturer and he could jack the prices up and there was no competitor. insulin is straight forward and has been around since the 1920s. what mechanism is failing to constrain the prices. >> insulin has been around for almost 100 years. for example, one of the short acting insulins that has been around for over 20 years t costs $35 in 2001. now it costs over $200. $270. the only reason for that is that the pricing system we have right now. >> whatever is doing this to insulin is other drugs, too. shouldn't there be a digger solution or do you mandate drug caps like in every other oecd
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country? >> one of the reasons why we did this insulin investigation is it is a case study. it's a drug that many people like the person, alex, that you focused on, they need it to live. if they don't have it, they will die. they need it every second, every minute of every hour of every day of their lives. if it's too expensive, they will die. what happened is there are so many pressures from the whole distribution system that the insulin price keeps going up and up. if you are on an insurance plan, maybe you get a good copay, but if you don't have insurance or you are in the donut hole or the insulin is not listed on your drug form lear, you are out of luck. >> what's the solution here? >> number one, more transparency in the system. number two, we need regulations that make essential drugs like insulin at a very low base
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price. there are a number of other things we can do, too, but the industry is going to have to work with us. the first thing we need to do is transparency. >> they are not going to work with you because they are donating to every's covers on capitol hill. >> if they don't work with us, we will make them do it. one of the things that struck me in the hearing is we had tremendous bipartisan agreement about how serious this problem is and what we need to do. i'm the cochair of the diabetes caucus with tom reed of new york, a republican. last year we did our own investigation and came up with a study where we recommended a number of legislative fixes. i believe that the republicans will work with us on this because it's just -- our constituents, i had a woman come in denver, colorado and she said she is working three jobs. she is paying $760 a month with
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insulin. she has been in the hospital four times because she can't manage her diabetes. >> product you need to stay alive is not a normal market product. >> that's correct. >> thank you for your time. >> coming up, the republican congressman whose denialism leaves john kerry speechless. e leaves john kerry speechless everyone's got to listen to mom.
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less than two weeks ago we can a special on the green new deal with zapped alexandria. there is a debate on how to deal with climate change. there is astonishing levels of bad faith, trolling and idiocy.
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the one exchange from yesterday's hearing was between former secretary of state john kerry and thomas massey of kentucky. he is a smart guy. he's a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and mechanical engineering, both from mit. the phantom is a computer interface that enables users to feel objects in cyberspace. he rebuilt a tesla battery to fuel his fully solar powder home. that's a lesson in what happens to smart people in the wrong environment. >> secretary kerry, i want to read your statement back to you. instead of convening a kangaroo cord, they might want to talk with the educated adults he once trusted to fill his top security positions. it sounds like you are questioning the credentials of
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the advisers currently. i don't think we should question your credentials today. isn't it true you had a science degree from yale? what's that? >> bachelor of arts degree. >> is it political science? >> yes, political science. >> how do you get the bachelor of arts and science. >> it's liberal arts education and degree. it's a bachelor. >> it's not really science. it's somewhat appropriate that someone with a pseudoscience degree is pushing pseudoscience in front of our committee today. i want to ask you -- you serious? is this seriously happening here? >> it is serious you are calling the president's cabinet a kapg radio court. i'm calling the committee that is putting this together a kangry committee. >> are you saying he doesn't have educated adults? >> i don't know. it's secret.
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why would he have to have a secret analysis of climate change? >> let's get back to the science of it. >> but it's not science. you are not quoting science. >> you are the science expert. you have the political science degree. let me ask you this. whether or not it is the consensus on parts per million of c02 in the atmosphere. >> 406, 350 being the level that scientists said is dangerous. >> you aware 350 is dangerous? since mammals have walked the planet, the average has been over 1,000 parts per million. >> yeah, but we were not walking the planet. let me just share with you that we now know that definitively at no point during the least 800,000 years has atmospheric c02 been as high as it is today.
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>> the reason you chose that is 200 million years before that, it is greater than it is today. for the record. >> but there were not human beings. it was a different world, folks. we didn't have 7 billion people. >> how did it get to 200 parts per billion? >> there were all kinds of geological events. >> did geology stop? >> this is just not a serious conversation. >> your testimony is not serious. >> i agree. >> oh, man. i would love to talk to thomas massey on why carbon of 1,000 parts per million is not great for humans on the planet. congressman, this is an open invitational. i'm no scientist, but i'll give it a go. kirstjen nielsen is on her way out and they are trying to rehab
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if you have symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. taking trulicity with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases your low blood sugar risk. common side effects include nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and decreased appetite. these can lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. i choose once-weekly trulicity to activate my within. if you need help lowering your a1c, ask your doctor about once-weekly trulicity. thing one tonight, a new era in congress. the democrats in control of the house, which means the hearings are getting a lot more interesting. the financial services committee brought in the ceos of seven of the country's biggest bangs for questioning.
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>> i would proceed that seven of you have something in common. you appear to be white men. i may be mistaken. if among you happens to be something other than a white male, would you kindly extent a hand into the air. kindly let the record reflect that there are no hands in the air and the panel is made up of white men. this is not a perjorative. you surmised about diversity. if you believe that your likely successor will be a woman or a person of color, would you kindly extend a hand into the air. >> no hands raised. then the banker his to face katie porter, the freshman from california who has proven
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herself unafraid. jamie diamond had trouble with her questions about the ones about numbers. that's thing two in 60 seconds. s
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freshman congressman katie porter of california wrote the book on consumer law. she was ready to school jpmorgan chase's jamie diamond on the hill. she used a real job listing offering $16.50 an hour and asked a single mom how they can make ends meet on that salary. >> she had $2,245 a month. she and her daughter sleeping it n the same room. that apartment will be $1600. she pends $100 on utilities. she has net $725. she's like me. she drives a 2008 minivan and has gas. $400 for a car and expenses and gas. net, $325.
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a low cost food budget, that is ramen noodles, $400. that's $77 in the red. she has the cheapest cell phone she can get. she has after school child care because the bank is open during normal business hours. that takes her down to negative $567 per month. my question for you, mr. diamond, how should she manage this budget shortfall while working full time at your bank? >> i, i don't know that all your numbers are accurate. that's generally a starter job. >> she has a 6-year-old child and. >> you get those jobs out of high school and she may have my job some day. >> she may, but she is short $567 now. what would you suggest she do?
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>> i have to think about that. >> would you recommend she take out a credit card and run a deficit? >> i don't know, i would have to think about it. >> would you recommend that she overdraft at your bank and be charged overdraft fees? >> i don't know. i have to think about it. >> i know you have a lot -- >> i would love to call up a conversation about her financial affairs and see if we can be helpful. >> to live on less than the minimum i described. >> it would be helpful. >> i appreciate your desire to be helpful, but i would like you to provide a way for families to make ends meet. ilies to make ends meet >> tech: at safelite autoglass,
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today is kirstjen nielsen's last day as homeland security secretary. they are trying to work on her reputation. for me, things would have gone bad and good thing i was there
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to restrain the president's worst impulses. nielsen not only signed off on child separation, but knowing what it would do because she herself had reservations about it if the reporting is to be believed. she is the who went went out and not only implemented and lied over and over again about what was happening in the first place. >> the children are not being used as a pawn. i am asking congress to act. >> she lied and attempted to have us all believe what was plainly happening in front of our faces was not happening and she got snide and condescending and angry when someone challenged her. you intending for this to play out as it is playing out. are you intending for parents to be separated from their children and are you intending to send a message? >> i find that offensive. no. why would i create a policy that purposely does that? >> perhaps as a deterrent?
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>> no. the way it works -- >> you said it's a deterrent. >> that's not the question you asked me. >> no one made her do that. she could have resigned in protest. if her reputation is in tatters, that's on her. she is a grown up and she has to go out into the world. how will the world receive her? that's an open question. we lived through the george w. bush administration where someone like john yu wrote a memo that facilitated war crimes. you mote a memo saying certain torture didn't count as torture and gave it to jay who signed off on it and our country tortured people. according to the torture reporter, waterboarding and near drownings and sleep deprivation and rectal feeding and death threats. what became infamous in the moments, guess where they are now. that's a nice tenured perch.
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torture architect dodging circles on his way to class. what happened to jay? he's a federal judge for life. they paid price for their complicity and war crimes. the question now becomes will nielsen pay a reputational, social, professional price for ripping thousands of children from their parents' arms with no plan to track and reunite them? for imposing this cruelty and trauma on thousands of blameless children. or as everyone in polite society and establishment washington just going to welcome her back with open arms because she was doing her best? now, to be clear, i don't think she should necessarily be heckled in every mexican restaurant she goes to for the rest of her life, but she should face some sanction, opprobrium. because if they welcome her back, in the same way i'm not sure we won't torture again, i'm not so sure we won't rip children from their mother's arms again. arms again proof that i can figt psoriatic arthritis...
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there are people actively
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working to make sure kirstjen nielsen does not get a chance to rehab her image. the professor of george washington university drew up petition she would not benefit from some kind of soft landing among the intellectuals in washington. if she gets a position at a think tank, university center or similar, he will not participate nor will i associate myself in any way. a senior fellow at the cato institute who signed on the letter said, quote, if someone caged children as a hobby, they would likely be treated as a goddamn pariah by everyone. if you make it a vocation, you can look forward to a kennedy school chair. it's diseased and i don't want the play along. i'm joined by norm ornstein, resident scholar at the american enterprise institute, contributing editor for the atlantic, and contributing editor, op-ed writer for "the new york times." norm, you've been in washington for a bit. you move in the circles of think tanks and such. what do you think about this idea, about some line for sort
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of moral conduct by public officials that should be over the line? >> so, chris, i believe in a decent society. you said corridors of acceptable behavior. and when people go outside those corridors, there should be a sense broadly of shame and they should not be legitimized and made whole again. and we've seen this happen over and over again in this administration. the corey liuget -- corey lune duce ski, the sean spicer, the steve bannons either get sinecures at harvard or get regular gigs on primetime television shows. and when they get on these shows and the excuse is often they have a point of view. we deserve to hear it. we need the hear from people with those perspectives, they are legitimized. it's like a wink and a nod. oh, they're just like all the others who have been here, only a little bit different. and that to me is fundamentally morally reprehensible. >> well, to play devil's
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advocate against that argument, because i expect you agree, there is an argument that says look, civil society breaks down if everyone starts to sort of hold everyone's politics particularly or the administration they served in against them and people don't ever talk to each other and they don't go to university events and they don't sit on panels. all that is sort of the glue that makes things operate. what do you make of that argument? >> society also break down if you celebrate an individual who put babies in cages. if you let them fail up with a cushy six-figure salary in corporate america where they become a fellow at the harvard school of government following in the foot steps of sean spicer and corey lewandowski, just call it harvard kennedy school of government the lowest bar of any college on earth. it's like the failed entrance for any trump administration members. if you celebrate a person who put babies in cages and give them a speaking gig, a book deal and have them replace meghan mccain on "the view" in five
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years. we don't care if you put babies in cage, you will be rewarded because that's a revolving door of d.c. politics. so guys, come on now, i scratch my back, i scratch yours. what should happen is she should be shamed, mocked, ridiculed and made uncomfortable for as long as possible until, chris, she actually does apologize for it and engage in rehabilitation. and that requires proactive work. >> yeah, i think that's a good point, norm, there, about this sort of the idea here being that you have to sort of be called to account for what you did, right? there has to be some public reckon, and not sort of slide past what happened. it's not a permanent idea. but just the idea of social opprobrium extending until you say what you did and you're forthright and honest, and also show some contrition about what you did. >> that's right. >> and just as important is you don't normalize abnormal behavior. and as you pointed out, with kirstjen nielsen, it wasn't just that she followed the policy of child separation, even if her friends and supporters argue
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that she didn't do as much as they wanted her to do. she not only lied to the american public, she lied to congress and did it repeatedly. >> yep. >> and she unleashed the i.c.e. people and the others in homeland security to do things that were sadistic and put no boundaries around them. i believe what daniel patrick moynihan said so powerfully about defining deviancy down, if we let stuff like this slide and treat them like they're normal, then the next time around, it gets worse and it gets worse after that. >> it's interesting too, this bit of reporting, maggie haberman said this. it was interesting. this was playing in her mind apparently, according to this reporting. people close to her say one reason that she didn't leave sooner, perhaps not only one is she was aware of how awful life will be for her on the outside after defending his policies for a long time. which is to say she knew what she was doing. >> exactly. and you know who's life is snaufl the kids who were kidnapped by the federal government. >> dozens who are not reunited.
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>> thousands of kids are not reunited. she is going to fail up and she'll live in a gilded prison. she is going to have a high cushy six-figure sal rich. and yes, she'll be shanld yes, at some mexican restaurant someone is going to go hey, weren't you the person that put mexican babies in cages and then she is going to complain on fox news and say look at these politically incorrect vicious demons on the left who are mocking kirstjen nielsen. i just want to say this. i want every date of kirstjen nielsen to be as uncomfortable as possible until she apologize. she is not going to be awful. her life will be fine. she'll fail up. george w. bush now is known as an eccentric painter who gives candy to michelle obama. so that's how d.c. works. but that's not how it should work, based on what norm was saying because there has to be a penalty, chris there has to be some sort of social punishment so that there is good behavior moving forward. and some people left in the trump administration might say you know what? i'm not going to compromise my ethics and my values. i might do what sally yates did,
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or i'll do with chuck rosenburg did and i'll resist and fail up with dignity. >> thanks for joining us. that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. a big show tonight. there is a lot going on. this is one of those nights when the news has -- it's definitely simmering in a roiling way, can we say that? it hasn't quite reached its full boiling point. but give it a minute. you can tell the kettle is about to sing. tonight, for example we have brand-new news from the fight in congress to get the president's tax returns. this deadline was supposed to be midnight tonight. that's when house ways and means chairman richard neal told the irs that he would please like to see the previous six years of tax returns filed by the president and his business returns as well. and that's no idle request. under federal law, the ways and means chairman is absolutely allowed to get any tax return

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