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tv   The Rachel Maddow Show  MSNBC  July 1, 2019 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT

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that report. i'll be back here tomorrow 1:00 p.m. eastern. i'll be speaking with the trump administration's acting director for the u.s. citizenship and immigration services. that is our broadcast for tonight. thank you for being with us and good night from nbc news headquarters in new york. happy to have you with us. this is alexander fleming. he was born in scotland in 1881. he was trained as a doctor and a research scientist. in 1914 his career was interrupted when he went to serve in world war i for the duration of the war. returned back in 1819 whereupon he became a professor at st. mary's where he did medical training before the war. alexander fleming's research was about bacteria and viruses and vaccines.
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in 1928 in his lab at st. mary's, alexander fleming had a very fortuitous and ultimately world-changing encounter with dirty dishes. he had been working with a fairly nasty strain of staff bacteria in his lab when he found quite by accident that one of the culture plates he had been working with i guess had been neglected or somehow cross-contaminated. in any case, it had started to grow a bit of mold. under normal circumstances, that might be cause for regret. oh, no, this is spoiled, or you might be mildly grossed out. that would be cause for throwing that out or cleaning up that culture plate. but what fleming noticed that day in 1928 and what ultimately changed the world was on that culture plate which he had been growing the staff bacteria, there was a little splotch around that spot of mold.
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and in that little splotch spreading out from the edges of the mold, there was no bacteria. which meant that that mold was killing the bacteria. in that moment, alexander fleming asked the key question, which is, hey, what's in that mold? fleming ended up writing a paper in 1929 to not much acclaim or notice. but years later, almost a decade later, scientists working at a lab at the university of oxford, they came across alexander fleming's 1929 paper. and they decided that this previously obscure discovery about the mold killing off the bacteria, it looked like it might be promising. and so those scientists at oxford decided to start working on it. over the course of 1939 and 1940 and into 1941, they turned that initial discovery into something
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very promising indeed because the anti-bacterial substance that alexander fleming stumbled upon and discovered in that moldy dish a decade earlier was something that he called penicillin. and by 1941, those researchers at oxford figured out how to turn that penicillin mold discovery into a medical treatment. and it was something quite close to a miracle cure that could stop all kinds of infections. think about what thatmy meant at that particular time. english researchers developing this miracle medical cure in 1941. i mean, england had just gone to war against germany in 1939 in what had become world war ii. by 1941 things weren't going awesome in that war to say the least. but this team of scientists at oxford took alexander fleming's discovery and produced something that really could change
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everything. i mean, for the world at large in the long run, it could change everything. but for the war in the short run, it could change everything too. i mean, penicillin as a miracle cure for all kinds of infections, it wasn't exactly on par with the discovery of the atomic bomb, but it was the closest medical equivalent at the time. if they could only figure out on the allied side how to mass produce this miracle cure, which the germans didn't have. allied soldiers would have a huge new advantage in the war, not in terms of their ability to kill the enemy, but in terms of their own ability to survive their own wounds and their own battlefield illnesses. if they could only get this stuff made and distributed in quantity, this could absolutely be a game changer, but how could they do that? well, 78 years ago tomorrow on july 2nd, 1941, two scientists
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from that oxford lab flew across the atlantic from england to the united states. carrying a very, very, very precious suitcase which contained a bunch of carefully wrapped freeze-dried penicillin and they wanted to see if here in the united states it could be mass produced into a medical treatment that could be used in the war effort. and the reason they came here was because america had the know-how and the capability to do it. in july 1941, america was not yet in the war. america's resources were not strained in the way the allies' resources were from fighting that war for years already. even more importantly, america had the kind of scientific can-do capacity and acumen that the allies needed to get this crucially important job done. and so those oxford scientists flew over here and they went to
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the u.s. government. they went to the best place in the world to try to pull off this big scientific leap. they went to the u.s. department of agriculture, to the northern regional research lab of the agricultural research service at the usda. they unpacked their freeze-dried mold and got to work figuring out how to devise a method for production of this medical treatment they just invented based on penicillin. and the scientists at usda got to work on it immediately. they tried a gazillion different things and in short order they did it. they were using 10,000-gallon vats and obscure corn sugars and different types of temperature and humidity controls. by the time u.s. soldiers were joining the allied land invasion of europe on d-day in june of 1944, part of what the u.s. and the allies had on their side in the war effort were tens of
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thousands of doses of penicillin. by 1945 british news reels were breathlesslily reporting on u.s. mass production of the most important medical advance of the war. >> industrial monument to the miracle drug. mass production penicillin plant in terre haute indiana, where the medicine is being manufactured wholesale. tons of mold like that you have seen are processed by rapid fermentation. the culture is dehydrated. each vat uses 15 gallons of concentrated penicillin. >> it was science deployed by the u.s. federal government that made it possible by america and the allies to mass produce penicillin during world war ii, specifically it was scientists working for the usda. even that division of the usda, the agricultural research service, it still exists.
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it is still a world-leading elite headquarters for all types of practical and consequential research. if you're feeling a tremor in the plot here, as you might imagine, today, cutting-edge analyses having to do with the natural world and how to grow things and agriculture at every scale, in this day and age, that inevitable means talking about climate and climate change. even if you're not talking about the causes of climate change, you're necessarily going to be talking about its impact and coping with it and predicting it and hopefully potentially mitigating it wherever you can. even when that science takes place within the u.s. federal government, which is led by a president named donald j. trump. at the democratic presidential debate last week, one of the big takeaways, i think, both substantively and stylistically was the degree to which all those candidates on the democratic side wanted to be seen to be competing with each
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other in part on the basis of who's most serious and aggressive on the need to address the issue of climate. they're all fighting over who should be seen as having the best climate plan, who has the best understanding of the threats from climate change, who has the best practical ability to get big things done to address climate change. at this high level of american politics, for the first time we really have going to have a big contest for national leadership that at least centers on the issue of climate change and what we're supposed to do about it as a country. that itself is a landmark thing that. contest among the democrats, that is going to be fascinating to watch. they all want to not only do something about it, we get to see them all compete as to who can set themselves apart on this skpau issue and connect with the voters. that's happening in democratic electoral politics in a way we've never seen before. meanwhile, simultaneously within
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the federal government right now led by donald trump, there is already super high-level practical research and analysis happening at a world-class level on how to predict and cope with and hopefully ameliorate effects of climate change. that is happening. scientists are leading the world in that kind of research and that is happening despite the best efforts of the trump administration to shut all of that down. politico.com rounded up a bunch of findings from scientists at usda, including from ars, agricultural research service from the same part of the usda that developed the ability to mass produce penicillin in world war ii. scientists at that agency today have produced a whole litany of super consequential, superpractical stuff about climate change that the trump administration has been trying to kibosh. they have tried to at least ensure these findings from usda
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scientists never get distributed, definitely never get publicized. and this is practical stuff. this is consequential stuff that scientists working for the federal government have figured out and produced to a peer-review level. this is stuff that is ready to go. but the trump administration has been trying to keep it all quiet. i mean, even if you're not a scientist or particularly well versed in this field, you look at the subjects of this research and you can understand why it might be really important to get this stuff out there. in april of last year, for example, u.s. as a scientists looked at certain prairie grasses that are important for grazing cattle. they found as the level of carbon dioxide goes up in the atmosphere, that sort of super charges the photosynthesis process for the grasses. the consequence of that for the cows that eat those grasses, is that the protein content drops. if you're involved in ranching or anything else that has to do
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with cattle production, learning that increased co2 is going to reduce the protein content of what your cows are eating, that's good to know. that's important for just practical planning. usda scientists figured it out. trump administration is covering it up. 2017, superpractical findings for farmers dealing with newton r -- nutrient runoff. u.s. as a scientists studied how farmers can make simple, very practical choices that can have a big impact on that, things like not row toe tilling their sole. u.s. as a scientists quantifying the kind of effect steps like that can have as farmers are dealing with increased pollution and runoff problems. last summer a promising findings from usda scientists that coffee can be a sort of canary in the coal mine test subject for scientists who are trying to monitor and anticipate how pest
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biology is going to change as carbon dioxide levels go up. coffee is already being affected by increased co2. so scientists have been studying how coffee specifically might help when it comes to studying insects and weeds and growth patterns and other stuff that might change as levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere go up. and then there's this one, which is, like, again, even if this is not your field, right? just stipulate back from this a second and appreciate the biblical consequence of this type of research. arguably the most important food crop on planet earth is rice. more than 600 million people on earth get more than half their calories or half their protein from rice on a daily basis. earlier this year, usda scientists came to a potentially earth-shaking conclusion about rice. they found that as carbon
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dioxide increases in the atmosphere, rice loses its vitamins. which means the crop that more than 600 million humans count on for most of their diet is going to get significantly less nutrition has carbon dioxide levels rise. think about the consequences of that, right? trump administration buried that. they even tried to block outside scientists who worked at other institutions, scientists who worked from other institutions with it usda scientists on that study, the trump administration trying to tried to block their outside institutions from putting out any press releases or statements announcing these findings. they want to make sure to keep them quiet. you're only dealing with potential starvation of 600 million people or massive changes in nutritional needs for 600 million people. why would anybody need-torn about that? politico.com interviewed one usda scientist who spoke on the condition anonymity to avoid the
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possibility of retaliation. that scientist told politico, quote, why the hell is the u.s., which is ostensibly the leader in scientific research, why the hell is the u.s. ignoring this. it's not like we're working on something that's esoter rick. quote, you can only postponement reality for so long. . so i know everybody decries partisanship in washington and two parties being on two planets. but there is only one earth, and here on earth one, the partisan divide on this subject in particular and the different partisan experience right now of this subject in washington is just nuts. i mean, here's the democrats right now in a 20-way no holds barred full scale wrestling match trying to be the most aggressive and the most invested
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and the most admitted to taking climate change seriously and doing something about it. while the republican mexico in washington oversees a world renowned scientists who really are already working on the most practical stuff possible when it comes to dealing with climate change. peer-reviewed world-class science, which is already happening with u.s. taxpayers have already paid for and is ready to be published. and the trump administration is taking that stuff and actively shutting it down. refusing to release that research. as we talked about a couple times here on this show, the trump administration is also right now trying to dismantle a big chunk of the whole scientific capacity at that pioneering agency, at usda. "the washington post" reports today that it really seems like this is going to happen within the next two weeks.
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quote, these usda employees face a stark choice, move or be fired. scientists at usda were recently given a document with two blank boxes and were told they need to check one of the two boxes. option a, accept a forced transfer 1,000 miles away from usda and the rest of the federal government to a city where are no offices for the first time. or option b, agree to be fired. for the crime of refusing to be moved halfway across the country for no reason. these are scientists who do, you know, analyses of global commodity production and the impact of agricultural policies. as the trump administration clamped down on their work and announced that hundreds of them will be relocated on zero notice on a mandatory basis to kansas city. if you don't move you'll be fired. the scientists are warning this
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is going to decimate the ranks of scientists at one of americaameric america's premier scientific institutions. these agencies are going to lose 80%, 90%, or 100% of their scientists all at once two weeks from today. quote, in the resource and rural economics division, more than 90% of the employees who study climate change, conservation and the environment as well as the state of the world economy may leave. and the food economics division which studies food safety and pricing, the attrition rate can reach 89%. 80% of the u.s. government? these scientists were told for the first time on june 13th that they were going to need to move their families immediately or quit. and they were given one month to make the decision. they were told they needed to tell the agency which it's going to be, move 1,000 miles on no notice with your family
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immediately, or be fired. and they were given one month to make the decision. the decision is due at 11:59 p.m. eastern time on monday, july 15th, two weeks from today. again, there is no building, there is no office to move these people into in kansas city. the agricultural and applied economics association did the math and thinks this move will come at a cost to u.s. taxpayers of $80 million to $180 million. at that low price we can fire outlet scientists. congratulations, what else can we get you for that kind of money? circumstances we' we've been covering this since the scientists have been sounding the alarm, since they were told all of a sudden no public comment, no negotiation, no chance to see the site. they need to uproot their families and move or get fired. we've been covering this over the past few weeks. i think there was some expectation from everybody who we talked about it that the
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trump administration was going for it, they were trying this gambit, basically using this forced relocation thing as a way to empty out this part of the scientific capacity of the u.s. government. there was some expectations we talked to people about this story for our coverage that the trump administration would be blocked from going ahead with this. but i am here to tell you that it now looks like time is running out and it looks like they are going to do it unless something changes in very short order. the scientists themselves are doing everything they can and then some. they themselves voted recently to form a union only by forming a union and making a formal demand as a newly unionized workforce did they get an agreement from usda to talk for the first time about this move to start negotiating about it for the first time. the agency told the scientists that they're happy to start those negotiations and those discussions with them on july 16th, this is day after all the scientists will be fired if they don't move.
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the day after that's when they're willing to start talking about it. the other path here is that democrats in congress have also been trying to block what the trump administration is doing. but as the "washington post" reports today, quote, democrats are running out of options to stop trump from doing this. the member of congress from the district of columbia is now suggesting that as a last act of desperation the scientists should go to court and sue to try to stop them from doing it, suggesting maybe litigation is the last hope. the other dynamic is a robustly joined democratic presidential campaign in which the biggest names in democratic politics which these candidates are all competing amongst themgz "selve that is happening right now. while the tip of the spear scientists who are working on
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the most practical imaginable challenges that come from climate change right now, they are all getting fired two weeks from today. and that part of the u.s. government is essential being shut down unless somebody can figure out a way to stop it. and so it is this remarkable confluence of dynamics and events, right? climate change is very important to democratic voters. climate change particularly important to young voters of all stripes. climate change often seems big and overwhelming, something can worry about it but not do much about it. what can you do? climate change, we're talking about the scale of the earth. what can you do? well, here's a thing our government is doing right now over the next 14 days. to decimate some of the most climate science in the world and to disassemble the u.s. government's ability to do it again. those scientists are all going to be fired two weeks from today. and the trump administration will either be stopped or they
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will not. if they are not stopped, this kind of world-leading elite scientific capacity that we have built and paid for as american taxpayers for generations that literally helped the allies win world war ii, i mean, that is capacity that will be really hard to ever get back ever after you fire hundreds of scientists all working at the top of their game, fire hundreds of them all at once two weeks from today. ticktock. eks from today ticktock worst... ...especially when your easily distracted teenager has the car. at subaru, we're taking on distracted driving [ping] with sensors that alert you when your eyes are off the road. the all-new subaru forester. the safest forester ever.
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we got some harrowing stories and images today from a congressional visit to border patrol facilities in texas. a number of members of congress said they witnessed immigrants being held in what they describe as appalling conditions. this visit from members of congress came on the heels of a whole bunch of reports in recent weeks about border patrol stations in clint, texas, and mcallen, texas, and other locations. lawyers visited the clint facility last month and reported that hundreds ever kids were in dismal conditions including kids being put in charge of caring for one another without the human capacity or the physical facilities to do so.
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this video was taken at one facility today by democratic congressman joaquin castro, the brother of presidential candidate julian castro. he and congressional colleagues spoke with several women who were being held in a small cell there. i see them sitting on the floor of the cell. the women told lawmakers many had been separated from their kids and had been denied showers and ability to bathe and denied medication after this visit today to the facilities. members of congress described what they had seen to the press. >> when we went into the cell, it was clear that the water was not running. there was a toilet, but there was no running water for people to drink. in fact, one of the women said that she was told by an agent to drink water out of the toilet. >> what we saw today was unconscionable. no child should ever be
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separated from their parent. no child should ever be taken from their family. no woman should ever be locked up in a pen when they have done no harm to another human being. >> but i want to talk about their parents. the mothers, the abuelas, the tias, the madres that i sat with, who we want openly in our arms, not even knowing our names. because of the trauma they are experiencing and because they don't know where their children are. >> members of congress outside of border patrol facilities in texas after visiting with immigrants detained inside. this evening the associated press obtained this video of an interview with the 12-year-old girl who was held for almost two weeks in a texas border patrol facility. nobody is supposed to be in a
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border patrol facility for longer than 72 hours and she was he will for more than two weeks. this interview was conducted by a lawyer who's working on the girl's case. the girl says she and her six-year-old sister were taken from their aunt when they crossed the border last month.
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>> that video of a 12-year-old girl held at the border patrol facility in clint, texas, for two weeks. that was obtained by the associate press this evening. joining us is jerry nadler of new york, the high-profile chairman with jurisdictions over a bunch of details involved here. thank you for coming in. >> thank you. >> i just have to ask your reaction to what you heard from your house colleagues there and from these
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other reports that we had about these filtsz on the -- facilities opt border. obviously your committee has jurisdiction on the matter. >> we're do, but we don't control the agency. obviously what we saw today was disgusting. when we were at the border a couple of months ago, although they didn't let us talk to the kids, we saw very disgusting conditions then. this is inhumane and criminal. there ought to be prosecutions of the agency heads and some of the people for child abuse. this is clearly child abuse and it violates a half dozen laws. >> do you think it should be pursued as federal prosecution or do you think this is a matter of state law? >> well, probably both. probably both. >> in terms of what can be done, i know there was a lot of conflict and controversy within the democratic caucus last week as to whether or not the house bill, which included restrictions on the way that the trump administration and the agencies
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can treat immigrants. whether that bill would supersede the senate bill that didn't include any of those restriction and ultimately the senate bill went forward and that was a source of controversy within the caucus. can you talk to us at all about that decision? >> i voted against the final bill because i didn't have enough guarantees in my opinion that the money would be used to give them proper medical and other attention. and it didn't have enough guarantees that the trump administration wouldn't divert funds to more detention instead of better conditions. but the money has been appropriated and ought to be used now quickly to make conditions better and, of course, it's one thing to make the conditions better, which is what the money is for. secondly, these kids shouldn't be separated from their parents or relatives in the first place. that is unconscionable and not necessary legally. it's just more of the
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administration determining to torture people in order to be a deterrent for people coming over the border which they no longer admit is the case but that he admitted it was the purpose a few months ago. >> as we continue to get the ongoing reports of kids and families being held in appalling conditions and we continue to get reports about kids being separated from their parents, it feels like no level of criticism makes an impact. nothing makes a difference in terms of what the trump administration does. the inspector general at the department of homeland security last month has the had an appalling report on the conditions in which immigrants were being held. buzzfeed has a report coming out that describes worse conditions and we have got these firsthand reports from the little girl and lawyer who is have been there and member who is have been there. it feels like none of that ever goes anywhere. the trump administration is not shamed by the reports nor are they acting to change anything. >> that's correct. just as the story with the scientists, they are destroying
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the government's ability to do science. let's put our heads in the sand so we don't know what's happening. the executive branch is in charge of -- you can have lawsuits and the lawsuits might result in court orders to have better -- that's the only thing i can think of. for congress to pass laws, they have to be enforced. and it takes months to pass laws at best. >> is it possible to impeach individual officials who are in charge of these agencies and hold their feet to the fire in the house? >> it is technically possible to impeach mid-level officials, but that takes a long time and that's not the answer here. >> congressman jerry nadler is the chairman of the judiciary commit. i have a number of things i want to ask you about including the expected visit from robert mueller. we will be back with chairman nadler. stay with us.
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joining us is congressman naerlgds of new york. he's the chairman of the judiciary committee. thank you for being here. you have robert mueller to testify before your committee thanks to a subpoena in 16 days. i want to ask about the negotiations that led to that and what are the sort of terms that you set around the leading up to the subpoena that might give us an expectation of what the day is going to be like.
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>> the problem was that mueller didn't want to testify at all. he was happy to testify in front of our judiciary committee and the intelligence committee and have a transcript released a day or two later, but he was not willing to testify in public. we thought it absolutely essential that he testify in public so people could see and hear it. that was what the negotiation was all about. the agreement reached is he will come in on the 17th and he will testify for about two to two and a half hours in front of the judiciary committee. then he will testify for another two hours or so in front of the intelligence committee in public. and then he will testify in private in front of the judiciary committee and then in private in front of the -- >> he's going to the a closed session with each other committee? >> yes. >> the closed testimony is still -- when i walked to congressman schiff about this last week, he suggested that
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mueller himself won't be there in the closed testimony and it will be staff instead. but with you you're not sure? >> it's unclear. it may be his deputies. >> do you know how many of them it will be, if it's not mueller but his deputies? >> probably one or two. >> which ones? >> i'm not going to say the names. >> i knew you weren't, i could tell. i have to ask. imagine two or two and a half hours for the open session. >> for each committee. >> for each committee. but you're going first, right judiciary before intelligence. you have him for the first two and a half hours. how do you plan to approach that in terms of getting the most and the most critical information out of him? is this going to be questioning by you and the ranking member or by all the members? are you going to have staff question him? >> no, it's going to be by the members. in the normal order. we'll question him about this -- the question about the report
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first of all, his report led not just report, his investigation led to 37 indictments. it led to the outlining of 10 instances of obstruction of justice by the president and led to the revelation of repeated instances of the president instructing people to lie to investigators and the public in order to cover up what he had done. this is rather important stuff. it has to be explored. so we will be going through all of that and we'll also ask him questions, i'm not going to list exactly what the questions are, obviously, but we'll be asking him about the misleading and misrepresentation of his report by the attorney general. the president and the attorney general have conducted a campaign of lies and misrepresentations and the president said they found no collusion and no obstruction. the report did not find no collusion and no obstruction. it's a simple lie and he'll have to clarify both of those.
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the attorney general misrepresented the report in public. mueller wrote a letter saying you misrepresented the report. we'll ask him i'm sure in what way was it misrepresented. there's been a campaign to lull the american people into thinking everything is fine when in fact that report shows repeated instances of obstruction of justice by the president and shows the russians attacked our election and that there were hundreds of contacts, between 100 and 170 as i recall, contacts between campaign officials and people representing the russian government that the campaign welcomed the help of the russian government in its attempt to swing the campaign to trump. all of that is in the report and has been lied about by the president and the attorney general. we have to correct the record and let the people hear so people can see and the american people can see what, in fact, was going on. >> has there been or do you anticipate an effort by the justice department or white house to curtail his testimony
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or keep him from talking about anything in particular? >> they are doing that to every other witness and we will be going to court on that shortly, but i would be surprised if they tried to do it many mueller because he does not work for the justice department and i don't think he would stand for it. they have no legal right. with hope hicks and mcgahn and others, they have used this so-called claim of absolutely immunity. you may not talk about anything. and, of course, hope hicks obeyed that with white house lawyers sitting there and telling her don't answer the question of where your desk was located and about anything. they have done it with mcgahn. i don't think that -- i mean, there's clearly no legal right to do that. i don't think mueller would allow himself to be coerced into such an illegal and unpatriotic attitude. >> congressman jerry nadler of
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new york. the chairman of the judiciary committee, circumstances thank you. appreciate you being here. thanks for coming in. we'll be right back. stay with us. but only 11% of its executives are women, and the quit rate is twice as high for them. here's a hack: make sure there's bandwidth for everyone. the more you know. the shawn mendes verizon up concert was surreal. we were right in front of him. dead center. front row. i'll never forget that day.
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the singaporean declaration for such a grandiose title, it was very small. it promised a lot on that little page. chairman kim jong-un reaffirmed his unwavering commitment to the complete denuclearization of the korean peninsula. the singaporean declaration a year ago, june 2018. president trump and the north korean dictator sat down to sign the historic agreement about north korea abandoning its nuclear program. our president promised he would build a new relationship with north korea only if and when they got rid of all their nuclear weapons. it has been more than a year since that agreement was signed. in that time north korea has made basically zero effort toward any form of denuclearization despite what they promised. so natural there have been to be consequences for that sort of thing. you can't break a promise like that with the united states of america and expect it to go unnoticed.
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while they were consequences finally this weekend. the consequences were that the u.s. president went to north korea this weekend for the first time ever and called it a great honor. it's like a backwards reward system for north korea reneging on their part of that last deal. a sitting u.s. president has never stepped foot in north korea before. it was such a shocking thing, reporters counted the number of steps president trump took. for the record, it was 20. the visit of trump to north korea has been covered in north korea as the biggest propaganda coup of kim jong-un's life. the north korean dictator greeted as a friend and peer of the leader of the free world and met with no conditions and hosting the u.s. president on north korean soil. our president said he was proud to have visited north korea and said it was a, quote, great honor. he later invited the north korean dictator come visit the white house too.
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which goes without saying has also never happened before. we know that the north korean dictator is getting out of president trump. why is he getting nothing out of them and how does this exchange, therefore, end? hold that thought. hat thought.{ }÷ (avo) life doesn't give you many second chances. but a subaru can. (dad) you guys ok? you alright? wow. (avo) eyesight with pre-collision braking. standard on the subaru ascent. presenting the three-row subaru ascent. love is now bigger than ever.
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joining us here in studio is dr. sue mi terry, former director for korea, japan and oceanic affairs and also a senior analyst on korean issues at the cia.
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dr. terry, it's nice to have you here. >> thanks for having me on. >> my basic layman's not subject matter expert perception of what happened here is that the north korean government and dictator just got a really big propaganda victory. chairman kim being seen as a peer and friend of the leader of the free world and the u.s. does not seem to have gotten anything from north korea. is that a fair assessment? >> we're got zero. as you said, it's been over a year since the singapore declaration since that historic meetings. we don't have even an understanding of what denuclearization means. we have a differing understanding. there is no agreed upon definition. on denuclearization. we don't have a road map, time line or declaration of their nuclear program. we have nothing. we gave them this big propaganda coup for kim jong-un. i know president trump said before, oh, president obama has been begging to meet with north koreans. no, he has not.
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no u.s. president went to north korea. even the north koreans wanted to meet with the u.s. president. i'm afraid to say we have not made any progress. >> break it down for somebody who is totally outside this subject matter expertise. why has every previous president resisted those requests from the north korean government and why has no other u.s. president ever stepped foot on north korean soil. >> because you are legitimatizing kim jong-un and the north korean leader. north korea, we don't talk about human rights, but we have to remember they are the greatest violator of human rights in the world right now. they are building a nuclear program and just had six nuclear tests. and they tested intercontinental ballistic missiles. and posted threats to the region. you have to get something for the summit because it is legitimizing his rule and it is big propaganda for the kim family.
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shouldn't we get something out of that? we have not gotten anything out of that. >> they can't say big impact? it's there is no question as to the kim family's grip on power. how does it help them? how does it enable them to have the kind of popgd victory they just got from trump? >> domestically, it does strengthen his power further and internationally it does normalize him. north korea's goal is to get international acceptance of north korea as a nuclear weapons power, like pakistan, like india. we are normalizing him. it looks like the north korean leader is our peer. they're sitting there meeting, walking, talking. so you are normalizing him even internationally. i think that perception is very, very important for the north korean leader. >> in terms of what happens next, the president, part of what is unusual about the relationship between the united states and north korea in the trump era is that the president is so personally effusive toward
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that dictator, praising him, seemingly giving him everything he wants. do you have in mind a worse case scenario in terms of what trump might give to them? >> i do. right now they also spent 53 minutes together and we don't have a readout of that 53 minutes. what did trump promise kim? he does want a deal with president trump because he thinks president trump is the best possible person to have a deal with. no u.s. president, future democrat or republican would put alliance equities like peace treaty or anything on the table for discussion. i think kim wants a deal with president trump. he thinks he will get the best deal with this particular president. >> he's got a better shot with him than anybody else. dr. sue my temporary, former director for korea and japan and oceanic affairs. thank you for coming in. good to see because when you thanks for having me on. >> we'll be right back, stay with us. us. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise.
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tomorrow, we will be joined here in studio by democratic presidential candidate julian castro, the former mayor of san antonio and president obama's former housing secretary. julian castro is going to be joining us here live. first time we've had a chance lawrence o'donnell. >> we have polling coming up in this hour showing that julian castro did win some hearts and minds during the debates. his image improved. there is all sorts of internals saying who do you like better as a result of the debate. he is one of the people who benefitted. >> i saw the early fund-raising numbers that his campaign put out. he got a big bump. i had a feeling we would see poll numbers follow. >> that was my anecdotal experience. my civilians let me know what they were thinking. we are texting in julian castro. i like that guy.

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