tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC September 11, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
said. hundreds offered up their lives that day. and let's remember too our feelings about those first responders. and more than that the proud sense of country wefelt that we had those among us who would race to their duty on such a day, and that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> john wasn't in line with what we were doing and actually in some cases he thought it was too tough what we were doing, mr. tough guy. >> the bolton fall out from the iran negotiations to nuking a hurricane to north korea. >> i don't blame kim jong-un for what he said after that. and he wanted nothing to do with john bolton. >> tonight new details about exactly why trump no longer has a national security advisor. plus, breaking news. michael cohen makes a new
agreement to tell all about the trump organization. then -- >> people are dying and senator mcconnell hasn't acted. >> new pressure to resolve the gun ipas as states start taking the matter into their own hands. and the scheme pulled off by north carolina republican while democrats were at a 9/11 commemoration. >> if this is the way you believe democracy work, shame on you. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new hampshire. i'll ali. velshi in for chris hayes. it's been only a day since the president fired his national security advisor john bolton or john bolton quit between who you ask. it's hard to pin down the exact reason for the split between the president's comments and different reports, it seems the two men disagreed on just about everything. for one we now know that one of the reasons trump got rid of
bolton was because some of trump's friends didn't like him either. >> take a look at what happened to gaddafi with the libyan model and he's using that to make a deal with north korea, and i don't kim jong-un for what he said after that and he wanted nothing to do with john bolton. >> so the north korean dictator who imprisons and murders his own people didn't like john bolton. quote, the main irritant that drove mr. trump to distraction was his belief that bolton or those close to bolton leaked a story about mr. trump asking about whether nuclear weapons could be used to abate hurricanes. baltimore reports have centered around the two men disagreeing huto deal with iran. bloomberg reports discussing sanctions and meeting with the country's president causing the notoriously hawkish bolton to back. in june following trump's
decision not to order a military attacken on iran after it downed an unmanned u.s. drone, bolton was devastated. yet another point of contention between trump and his former national security advisor was the president's secret plan to host taliban leaders at camp david that he later canceled merchandise here's how politico described it. bolton's ousting came after widespread reports that bolton tried to stop trump from inviting leaders of the afghan taliban to camp david for peace talks. news reports about bolton's dissent believed to have been planted by bolton's aides infuriated trump. donald trump wanted to host leaders from the taliban at camp david. that was the plan. just days before the 18th anniversary of 9/11, which is today. americans across the country held solemn vigils to honor the nearly 3,000 people who died that day. president trump held a moment of silence at the white house and
spoke at the pentagon warning the taliban not to mess with the united states. but here's the weird thing. donald trump is the guy who invited the taliban to camp david on it week of 9/11. it is unclear exactly what happens now, but one thing we do know is that trump appears to be bumpbling his way through foreign policy. joining me now is a man who worked with john bolton in the george bush administration. he was chief of staff to secretary of state colin powell. colonel, good to see you. if you didn't know what john bolton is about, donald trump is surprised by john bolton, he's about the only person in the world surprised by john bolton. john bolton has been exactly who john bolton is for 30 years. >> you just put your finger on it. i said john bolton wouldn't last very long when he was appointed. i didn't think he would last as long as he did, but you just put your finger on it.
it's a reflection of the president and his ability to select people who were not just compatible with his views and personality but the strategies and policies he wants america to pursue. so this is as much a reflection of trump's inability to get along with other human beings and to select people who are good for the job as it is bolton's irascibility, warmongering and noted penchant to be a hard nose character. >> well, if martians landed on earth and said earthlings what is this war hawk you speak of, you could direct them to a definition of john bolton. in january 2019 after militants fired three mortars into baghdad's sprawling diplomatic quarter mr. trump's national security team led by john bolton conducted a series of meetings to conduct a forceful u.s. response including what many saw as the unusual request for options to strike iran. quote, it definitely rattled
people a former senior u.s. administration official said of the request. people were shocked. it was mind-boggling how cavalier they were about hitting iran. john bolton has invested a lot of time in the same way that peter navarro has invested a lot of time engetting the president to impose tariff on china. john bolton invested a lot of time to get out of the iran deal and take hawkish militaristic position with iran. >> and as i can see the crafter of security policies such as they are we've seen to this point. let's remember ronald reagan wanted to be president of the united states. regardless of what we think of ronald reagan, he wanted to be president of the united states. he had six national security advisers in eight years, no one said much about it. we moved all the way from the beginning to people who weren't allowed to see the president to at the end colin powell and frank who got in almost any time they needed to. this is not ronald reagan,
though. this is president who doesn't get along with people. this is a president who can't manage policy except that the policy is his and his alone. and we've seen how disastrous that foreign policy is if you can say we have a policy. you name it, we're in disarray right now. john bolton wasn't responsible for that disarray. the president is responsible. >> it's an interesting point that you brought up that ronald reagan had six in eight years. we're now at three in the time that donald trump has been in office. so maybe the time is not the issue. it's the who. you need a national security advisor who's prepared to stand up and at the same time you've got someone who has a good strategic sense of national security policy. >> and compatibility with the president. if you want to look at the ideal national security advisor you look at george herbert walker
bush. that was the most effective national security foreign policy decision making team since eisenhower. that's the way it's supposed to be. >> what makes that work? >> what makes it work is the personality to the president and the personality to the national security adviser and the experience of both, both. he was vice president to ronald reagan for eight years, ambassador to chine, head of the rnc, director of the cia. he had experience. he'd been jerry ford's national security advisor and ran the changes in the national security council. he knew it and if there was one word that says what you ought to have in the white house in both then, president and national security advisor is experience. and if you don't have it in the president then you often -- you need it in a national security advisor. >> there's some late reporting tonight from cnn. the president is considering mike pompeo to remain as secretary of state and take on this position.
>> henry kissinger did that. we saw how that worked. it didn't work at all. the congress should take great exception to that because you've got a person with no portfolio that's subject to their advice and consent not elected in the national security advisor but immensely powerful because of his proximity to the president and a cabinet officer subject to all of that and equally powerful. you don't want someone with both portfolios. >> thank you for your time and analysis tonight. all right, john bolton's out. yesterday president trump's first national security advisor mike flynn learned he's going to be sentenced later this year for lying to the fbi. and now tonight we have learned that donald trump's former personal lawyer michael cohen is cooperating with officials from behind bars. he's signed a proffer agreement with the manhattan district attorney's office. now the proffer means cohen will cooperate with the investigation and get limited protection against prosecution in return. the da is looking into the possibility that the trump
organization was falsifying business records. joining me now are two of our legal experts, cynthia, former proskwurt in the department of just's civil recognizes division and now an msnbc legal analyst. and nick acerman, former assistant watergate prosecutor, also a former u.s. attorney. thank you both for being here. let me start with you. what does this mean the proffer agreement? i think we've been out of this business for a while talking about michael cohen and what he's up to. >> it means that cy vance's team has picked up the investigation into falsifying business records in the trump organization. it means they're sort of tugging that piece of yarn in this sweater and seeing how it unravels. this is interesting on lots of different levels, not only in how they would do it and what they would find but can they really get information from cohen so that they know where to go to find more information so that eventually he never has to
be a witness because you know he's not a very good witness because of his falsifying busi which can be a felony and a serious offense. and it could lead as you tug on that yarn in the sweater from falsifying business to some kind of a criminal tax fraud case. and so we just have to wait and see what they get, in addition what they've got out of ami. what they've gotten out of the records from the trump organization. and in the course of their investigation, have people in the trump organization lied to them, is that another charge? so this is just the beginning to pull this yarn on this sweater. >> let me ask you this, nick, for people, cynthia was just talking about cy vanish, so manhattan district attorney. we've mostly known about michael cohen through the work of the southern district of new york. >> the big difference here is that cy vance is the local prosecutor. he is the state prosecutor in new york county. so he is not concerned with federal crimes. he's concerned with state
crimes. but i think we have a continuous theme here that pervades all of this. and it's simply that all roads lead to donald trump's tax returns. to make this a serious crime and a serious felony falsifying business records is usually associated with falsifying numbers so that they falsify in turn the tax returns. >> interesting. >> so in this particular case it could very well be that they are looking at the false state tax returns that have been filed by the trump organization, filed by donald trump, and there could be all kinds of people who could have criminal liability here. if it's just donald trump, obviously, the problem there is indicting a sitting president, although the manhattan da's office is not under the same stickture as the department of justice. that could indict a sitting president. secondsly, there are lots of people around donald trump who
could be indicted for aiding and abetting and assisting in this. for example, in the watergate prosecution we could have indicted richard nixon up until the point he was pardoned by president ford. however, we wound up indicting four other people who assisted nixon in the preparation of his false returns. so here you've got people like weisselberg who was given immunity by the feds, but that immunity doesn't carry over to the state. you've got people who were involved in actually dealing with this hush money, dealing with the books and records. so there are lots of potential defendants here who could be charged with crimes related -- >> this is the pulling on the yarn. cynthia, what can cy vance offer michael cohen? what does he get for it? >> first of all, revenge is a wonderful motivation where which another reason why you don't want him on the stand. you know, cy vance isn't in a
position to do anything about his federal time because he's serving time in a federal prison. and he can't really do anything about that. so i would say, you know, cohen obviously feels it's deeply unfair and i would agree with him that he's the only person serving time for the campaign finance violation. and it has inspired him to find ways to make sure the authorities in new york state know about the violation and will follow all the leads. because after all in the new york state prosecution there is no bar to shut it down, you know, the attorney general. there is no olc memo and there's no pardon power associating with the state court crimes. >> so nick, one will remember that michael cohen was not jumping over himself to cooperate with authorities the whole way. there was always something there that prevented him from fessing up to everything he's done.
he's worried about something. >> spending three years behind bars. i can guarantee you he's not sitting there now just making license plates. he's looking for ways he can cooperate and get his cooperation before judge pauline in the southern district of new york so he can rack up those brownie points and bring down that sentence. i'm sure he's cooperating with jerry nadler's investigation, with the da's office. and at some point his lawyers are going to go before the judge and say michael cohen while he's been in prison has cooperated with a whole series of investigations and therefore, judge, you should lower his sentence. and that's what he's going to try and do. >> thank you, both. we appreciate it. coming up next while republicans continue to obstruct gun legislation democrats are finding new ways to get things done. how one governor is taking matters into his own hands after this. s taking matters into his own hands after this of course i have- ever since i started renting from national.
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i know the pain of losing a child to gun violence. and that anyone in this room, anyone in this country should ever be faced with that pain, and for every single day that we fall into not taking action, mothers and fathers across this country will live through the same nightmare that i did. >> that was congresswoman lucy mcbath of georgia yesterday before the house judiciary committee voted to advance three bills designed to counter the gun violence epidemming in this country. it's the latest gun safety push
from the democrat controlled house which voted earlier this year to require background checks on almost all gun sales, something supported by the overwhelming majority of americans. but senate republicans have refused to take up any gun safety legislation with senate leader mitch mcconnell insisting he needs to know what donald trump would sign before he brings a bill to the floor which is unusual because the senate is part of the congress which is coequal branch of government. today donald trump said he was working with the senate lawmakers on gun safety measures that will be, quote, acceptable to everybody. another thing that seems unattainable. just last month he reportedly assured the nra that universal background checks are off the table. with republicans continuing to have struck gun safety levels at the federal level, some states
are stepping up. governor phil murphy signed an executive order that his state -- joining me now to tell me more about this governor phil murphy. >> thank you for having me on, ali. >> we've seen across this cony over the last few years, gun safety advocates point this out all the time while the focus seems to be on the congress to pass meaningful gun legislation in fact there has been meaningful legislation passed awaua across the country and they argue in fact a lot of progress has been made on that front. >> ali, it's quite appropriate to have a discussion on public safety on this most solemn of days, so god rest the souls of we lost 18 years ago. yes, there's been progress at the state level because we frankly have no choice. there's inaction in washington.
i hope the president has seen the light in senator mcconnell, i'll believe that when i see it. but we have from day one in our administration taken a whole series of actions, executive action and yesterday as you pointed out an executive order that would require gun vendors, financial institutions that finance those vendors as well as insurance companies to adhere to a set of principles that we think are consistent with the values associated with a smart gun safety state. and we'll keep at it because at the end of the day we all know that we need congress to act. but in the absence of that we can't stop it and continue to stay at it. >> we have a second amendment in this country, it is the lay of the land regardless of what people think about it or not. it is what it is. how does your new executive
order stand up to that? when you say that these vendors, these companies that finance them, insurance companies live up to a set of standards that you think are acceptable, how do you do that while standing up to a potential court challenge? >> so we entered this executive order and the execution of it in a spirit of good will. so we're hoping to find common ground with the vendors, and that's guns, ammunition, other equipment. we've spent over the recent period of time over $70 million. we have right now six vendors that deal with the state. again, we entered that with a spirit of good will. financial institutions we spent a lot more in fees. i think we spent about a billion dollars with fees with financial institutions. and last low on the insurance carrier side it's unclear yet what the exact magnitude is. but none of what we're doing in any way challenges the second
amendment. this is asking vendors to adhere to a set of principles that they respect universal background checks, that they won't sell to straw purchasers, that they'll take training and communication seriously and like wise financial institutions will choose in their dealings to finance only the vendors, whether they be retail or manufacturers that also would adhere to those principles. i don't think any of that goes near the second amendment and i think we can make that case quite clearly and i would hope we could continue to do so not just in new jersey but across our country. >> i want to ask you really quickly the president says he's going to come up with something that everybody's going to be happy with. those red flag laws across it country are an example of common ground with gun safety advakts ha
advocates are worked with gun advocates to say there are people dangerous who maybe shouldn't have guns but that will be adjudicated. >> yeah, red flag laws are good examples of steps that are broadly if not overwhelmingly supported by americans of all political stripes. universal background checks, i think, clocks in at 90%. it's completely shameful that congress and this administration haven't acted already on those steps. i'm hopeful that they will, but in the meantime i'll hope for the best and we'll prepare for the worst and keep at it here in new jersey. >> we appreciate it, governor phil murphy of new jersey. coming up next, new reporting tonight the white house was involved in the ultimatum to noaa. either back up the president or lose your job. details of that next. or lose your job. details of that next making it easy for you prin to get your windshield fixed. >> teacher: let's turn in your science papers. >> tech vo: this teacher always puts her students first. >> student: i did mine on volcanoes. >> teacher: you did?! oh, i can't wait to read it. >> tech vo: so when she had auto glass damage...
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service in birmingham for correcting the president. but that's not it. then we learn that wilbur ross, the secretary of the commerce department which oversees noaa reportedly personally directed the acting administrator of noaa to issue that statement or risk having top political appointees at noaa fired. that's according to "the new york times." wilbur ross denies that and now there's new reporting that the pressure on noaa came straight from the white house. "the new york times" is reporting, quote, mick mulvaney the acting white house chi of staff told wilbur ross, the commerce secretary, to publicly cis avow the forecasters position that alabama was not at risk. and "the washington post" reporting, quote, president trump told his staff that noaa needed to deal with a tweet that seemed to contradict his statement that hurricane dorian posed a significant threat to alabama, senior administration officials said. when asked today if he had directed mulvaney to do that,
the president denied it calling it a hoax by fake news. that has not stopped the inspector general of the commerce department of directing that unsigned statement saying this was a matter of, quote, scientific integrity. in an e-mail to craig mcclain he condemned the agency's response as quote political and a danger to public health and safety and he's investigate why noaa issued that statement. so this is far from over. as for president trump's treatment of actual victims of hurricane dorian bahamian people displaced by the catastrophe, we're going to talk about that next. catastrophe, we're going to talk about that next ur home at a great price, the way it works best for you, i'll take that. wait honey, no. when you want it. you get a delivery experience you can always count on. you get your perfect find at a price to match, on your own schedule. you get fast and free shipping on the things that
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bahamians to live and work in the united states until ies to . it's the same status granted for example to victims of haiti's quake in 2010. this news comes on the same day, quote, bahama's emergency services listed 2,500 people as missing. the government official says the list has not been checked against government records of who's staying in shelters or who has been evacuated. the number of people confirmed killed in the bahamas stands at 50 tonight. that number is almost certain to rise. joining me now is a member of the house oversight committee. congressman, good to see you. thank you for being with us. in the wake of a humanitarian disaster which i saw with my own eyes, i just returned from the bahamas, the president uttered language he's used about all asylum seekers, mexicans, he talked about criminals, drug dealers, gangs, people who are not legally in the bahamas, and
actually a lot of that is a reference to the haitians who went thereafter the earthquake in haiti. it is not the normal tone you would expect in the face of a humanitarian disaster that the bahamas is facing. >> ali, it's morally outrageous. let's be clear what this administration is doing. they're turning away poor black people who are coming after having faced a category 5 hurricane, and they're coming here for temporary relief. these are climate refugees. i mean, they faced a more severe hurricane because of the warming of the ocean caused in part by our carbon policies. the least we can do is to allow them here on a temporary basis. and this administration is just really despicable that they're being turned away. >> and to be clear we have systems in place for doing this. the temporary protected status law allows for us to bring people in with documentation know where they are, monitor it
when the temporary protective status ends, they would go back. this isn't a they're invading us thing. >> not at all. and senator marco rubio is asking they be allowed in. the idea you're going to require first documentation when they've just gone through a hurricane and you expect that they have their passport or visa defies any common sense. and second, almost any president in the past has allowed people when there's a natural disaster to come here, they get to work, stay here temporarily and then they go back. we've done this when there was a natural disaster in haiti, we've done in natural disasters in other parts of the world. what this president is doing is also unprecedented. >> it's worth noting a lot of people in the bahamas are zepded from american loyalists who went there in many cases with slaves. so the connection is very strong. let's talk about this whole noaa thing, the president, the sharpie, the alabama thing. would have been bad enough if it
just happened, but the president continued to keep this in the news, continued to talk about it. and then it went a step further. it wasn't just the doctored map. it went somewhere else, and with each passing few hours, we're getting more information about how close the order to issue a statement to noaa came from the president. >> well, as they say in washington the cover up is almost always worse than the original misconduct. i mean, all the president had to do was admit a mistake, but this president is incapable of ever admitting that he's wrong. and so he's engaged in this elaborate cover-up to the point where the chief of staff to the president is allegedly directing an independent agency to put out a tweet defending the president and interfering in an independent process. so it just shows what can go wrong in a democracy when you have a leader who has a
disregard for facts and who has no sense of humility, no sense of willingness to admit that he made a mistake. >> i have to say i have a lot of reasons as a guy who's reported on hurricanes to not want the administration or the national weather service or noaa or journalists to misrepresent storms because people already have issues taking it seriously. but the idea that the chief of staff may have called the commerce secretary who may have called the head of noaa to cause them to put out a public statement because they didn't want to contradict the president seem to be a greater offense to democracy. >> it is and a pattern with this administration. this is what got the president in trouble with the mueller report, he was trying to interfere with the justice department, interfere with the fed. he's now trying to interfere with the commerce department. he's not king, not a dictator. he lives in a constitutional democracy and there are independent agencies who operate totally independent from his power. and he refuses to acknowledge the very basics of the checks and balances of our
constitutional democracy. >> thank you for joining me. >> ali, great to be on. coming up next did north carolina republicans really stage a legislative coupe in the middle of a september 11th memorial events. the governor roy cooper joins me to break down what happened after this. ooper joins me to break down what happened after this family is all together and we switched to geico; saved money on our boat insurance. how could it get any better than this? dad, i just caught a goldfish! there's no goldfish in this lake. whoa! it's pure gold. we're gonna be rich... we're gonna be rich! it only gets better when you switch and save with geico. billions of problems. sore gums? bleeding gums? painful flossing? there's a therabreath for you. therabreath healthy gums oral rinse fights gingivitis and plaque and prevents gum disease for 24 hours. so you can... breathe easy, there's therabreath at walmart.
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other investments long into the future, and another way aag is working to make your retireme... better. don't wait. get your info kit now! all right, in north carolina one day after special congressional elections netted two republican seats republicans in the state legislator pulled off a move that the raleigh news and observer called a quote shameless theft of democracy. while the governor and some democratic service members were at a service commemorating 9/11, democrats say the vote was not scheduled. they were under the impression they didn't need to be there, so only 12 democrat were in the statehouse when it all went down. >> mr. speaker, you are making a
mockery of this process. you are deceiving all of north carolina. your leadership is an embarrassment to the history of this great state. at this moment in time you are doing the unspeakable. is this the legacy you want? are you proud of this? are you proud of yourselves? look at you. there's no one here because we have been deceived. the trustworthiness is gone. we will not yield. >> all right, joining me now to talk about what exactly is going on in north carolina is the governor of the great state, democrat roy cooper. governor, jfs just in your state last week as we were covering the hurricanes and i never cease to tell people what a beautiful state it is with great people and terrific food. what is going on with your politics? >> well, there's no question that north carolina is a great place to live and raise your
family. but, ali, what we saw today was an assault on democracy by when republican leadership. i vetoed this bad budget because it valued corporate tax cuts over investment and public education and denied health insurance to 500,000 working north carolinans with medicaid expansion. over two months instead of negotiating with me this republican legislator continued to try to override my veto. they did it by bullying legislators. they did it by bribing legislators. even offering to move the entire department of health and human services to any legislator's county who would vote to override my veto. they couldn't get the votes. so what they did was lied. they told democratic legislators and they told the media that there would not be votes at 8:30
this morning on 9/11, a day when americans should be standing in solidarity. they scheduled this vote and overrode the veto. and the people of north carolina lost today, teachers lost today, working north carolinans who don't have health insurance lost today and it is wrong. it is wrong. >> wrong as it may be, is it illegal? >> i believe it is. i also believe that it is unethical. and the way they did it, these legislators are citizen legislators. and they have been showing up every day there's a session for over two months. one legislator had to get off her chemotherapy bed to get there. they missed family events. they have missed work in order to be there. and there have been somedays when the republican leadership has told them there's not going to be a vote. and this was one of those days. and i think it's all part and
parcel of this republican leadership and our legislator, which in fact has not reflected of who we are as north carolinians. they were elected under illegal gerrymandered districts. and i think it is the last gasp of a dying majority here. i was elected governor in 2016. i appointed by far the most diverse and qualified cabinet in the history of our state. i've been fighting offshore drilling, issued an anti-discrimination order, pushed for public education. and then we went last year and recruited enough people to run for the state legislator. and even under terrible districts we were able to break the super majority in both the house and senate and this year we've been stopping bad legislation, so they had to resort to trickery. and now our state courts unlike
the u.s. supreme court, our state courts have found partisan gerrymandering to be unconstitutional. so now they're having to redraw their districts. and every single one of those house members and state senators are going to be up for election next year along with me running for re-election for governor. and there will be a judgment day in north carolina. >> jergerrymandering is an important and serious issue across this country and it is driven home in north carolina. in fact, i'm just showing our viewers a picture of north carolina's 12th congressional district which was formerally the most jerrgerrymander distrin the united states. this republican dominated legislator in north carolina, when you became governor they attempted to strip you of most of your important powers. >> they did. we were able to sue them and get a lot of it back. but you're talking about a legislative leadership when they
drew these congressional districts, they did it with partisanship in mind first and foremost. and in fact we are a state that votes pretty evenly democrat and republican. and they drew districts that resulted in ten republicans and only three democrats. and when asked this particular leader who told our democrats today that there had be no votes at the 8:30 session, this leader when asked how in the world when it's so even in north carolina can you end up with ten republicans and three democrats, his answer was we couldn't figure out a way to make it 11-2. now, that, that is straight partisan game playing injure mandderring, and it is wrong to the core and resulted in the extremism we've seen from our legislator in north carolina. but we are winning here. we are turning things around. we still have a fight in the senate. we broke the super majority in
the senate as well, so we're going to fight it. but our best chance was in the house, and they had to use lies and deception in order to get this done today. and it's wrong. and i believe the people are going to react positively next year when them are up for election. >> good to talk to me. coming up, the remarkable reporting that launched a national reckoning. how they broke the harvey weinstein story. they join me next. eistory. they join me next. yesss, i'm doing it all.
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since two reporters for "the new york times" broke open one of the most consequence stories of our time about sexual harassment claims against harvey weinstein whose trial on rape "me too" movement, reaching dozens of men in the highest echelons of power. now the two pulitzer prize-winning reporters jodi kantor and megan twohey are telling their story and the change they kicked off in a new book entitled "she said." they join me now. congratulations on the recognition that your waiting has justly been given. but in this book you tell of a journey. this is not just reporting a story. this has intrigue and mystery and threats and confidential sources. two years ahead of this, two years from when this first
started, what has changed in your mind? what is different today? >> well, there is no question that thisasically governed hollywood and other industries in which women were scared to speak out and go on the record their allegations of sexual harassment and sexual assault. we realized our weinstein story, the first weinstein story was really just the beginning. we had been able in the first story to connect some of the dots of his alleged predation going back over the years and how it was covered up. since then we have been able to piece together so many other additional pieces of the puzzle. the machinery that is in place to silence women and try to stop our investigation, and also the way that individuals and institutions can become complicit in abuse. that's something that really goes beyond the weinstein story to all these, you know, to this issue as it plays out across the country. >> let me ask you, jodi, when people say that because
uncorroborated claims against men and they are taken seriously, your reporting shows otherwise, that there is no -- that's not how this went down? >> well, that's not how we operate. one of the things we explain in the book is every one of those allegations we talked about has to be vetted, it has to be corroborated. we were writing under legal threat. i think you are also talking about something more general now, which is a fear that "me too" has somehow gone too far. what megan and i have seen in our reporting is there are three questions about me mi questions "me too" that are unresolved. what kind of behaviors are under scrutiny? is this about serious claims of assault or bad jokes, bra snapping in school hallways? number two, how do we evaluate these claims? what are the tools we use? what's the pocess we use for figuring out the truth. what is punishment and accountability look like? this these controversial cases what you often see is that all
three of those questions are tortureously mixed up. >> are they answerable? do we know when you get a report of something that you need to pursue, do you know how to answer those questions? >> well, so with we are able to walk readers through is the way that journalism works. and so there was -- i just got my -- i started my career at a newspaper in wisconsin and my editor had a saying above his desk, if your mom tells you she loves you, check it out, which i think applies to all types of reporting and investigating. i think people can mistakenly think, especially in the "me too" era, if a woman comes forward to a newspaper with an allegation that the newspaper turns around and publishes it. we are able to walk readers through the rigorous amount of work required to go to print with a story like this. we were able to basically amass a financial trail of payoffs that weinstein had been able to, that he used to pay off and
silence women over the years. we were able to extract internal company records documenting complaints against him, in addition to women going on the records with their stories and the corroboration we used in those cases. so what you are able to see, and also in the final stretch that we go to weinstein himself to give him adequate time to respond. >> who then came to your offices right as this was about to go to press? >> yes. well, he got this strange call very close to when the article was ready, and it said harvey weinstein is on his way over. and we said, what? he is coming to the office? and he was going to show up within a matter of minutes. and actually my partner megan decided to take the meeting. >> yeah, he basically barged into "the new york times" with many high-powered lawyers by his side, including lisa bloom, the feminist attorney, juan of his
staunchest defenders. he came in with folders that he had containing information and photographs that he thought he would be able to use to smear the woman preparing to go on the record for our stories. >> you mentioned you were able to follow a financial trail. you had a source that was helping you with that? >> we did. one of the things, it's sort of a relief to finally be able to tell certain stories in this book and to take people into these events. one of the things we can finally disclose there was a kind of deep throat figure in the weinstein investigation and his name is irwin rider. he was harvey weinstein's own accountant for his companies for about 30 years. so he was very much an insider. he still worked at the weinstein company when i started meeting with him late at night in the fall of 2017. and he provided crucial information about more recent allegations that helped us nail the story. >> what a remarkable story. when you started this did you get how big this was?
>> we certainly had no idea what the impact would be. at "the new york times" all we know in 2017 is that we were committed to reporting on sexual harassment across a variety of industries from the restaurant industry to silicon valley to hollywood to auto plants, and our hope, obviously, was they would help bring about change, but we couldn't be sure what was going to have what impact. >> the tip of the spear. thank you for not only your remarkable reporting, but for this book that tells us about how it all went down. megan twohey, jodi kantor. and that's it for all in this weekend. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. >> good evening. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour on this the 18th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks in 2001. it has been sort of an unsettling day in the news. not necessarily in terms of the anniversary, but just in terms of our own c