tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBC October 10, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT
republican or every member of the house should want to get the facts out. the fact is that asking a foreign power to help us is wrong, and we have to be clear about that, but we also need to get the facts out but reserve judgment until the house has acted. >> excellent, fair point there. senator ben cardin, democrat from maryland on the foreign relations committee, thank you for coming on, sharing your views, and thank you to everybody who watched us tonight. really appreciate you tuning in. "the beat" with my friend ari melber starts right now. we begin with a new twist, several key witnesses arrested today. these are business and political associates of rudy giuliani who were already on the radar for house democrats and are linked to not only ukraine but to giuliani's plot to shape ukraine policy for president trump, and that's not all. the feds indicting these people for among other things allegedly illegal donations to a trump pac. so right there you have a lot. let's take a few of these facts
individually. this is quite a development for this whole story tonight. before you get into any details, consider that these are pretty dramatic arrests of two key witnesses in the trump impeachment probe. they have been working with rudy giuliani partly because of their strong ties to ukraine, so right there tonight before we get any further, the basic story line of this arrest is out of the spy movie. they were headed to board a one-way flight out of the country when the fbi apprehended them last night. now house democrats had been demanding they appear before investigators on the impeachment probe today and tomorrow. now, while the feds are not saying these men were necessarily fleeing arrest, the time line we already have, and this is all brand new, shows they were leaving without testifying to the key details that were desired about giuliani and ukraine, an investigation that is actually larger than a criminal probe because, as you know, it's a probe into whether
the president committed high crimes and should be kicked out of office. and congress thinks these men knew things that could address whether to impeach president trump, like how giuliani plotted with foreign governments and how he tried to run a shadow foreign policy, which could ultimately be ruled a criminal foreign policy, which as you know was designed to target owe biden and help trump's re-election. so what we have today is a new indictment from the feds that touches on some of this. it's not the only reason they're charged. these are the men who helped rudy giuliani get meetings with heavy weights. we know rudy giuliani and trump wanted ukraine to go after the bidens, so a lot of this is coming into plain view. let me show you a couple more facts. another reason why this matters, prosecutors say they have evidence to convict these men. now if prosecutors believe they know anything that could implicate other people in crimes, any other people, which could in fairness not include
rudy giuliani or theoretically it could include rudy giuliani, what we know what the feds are going to do tonight and in the coming days. they will press these men for any information about any other people, and as you may recall, that's what this very same new york prosecution office did to mr. michael cohen. another reason this matters, well, and i haven't even hit this in much detail yet because this has got a cull couple of pieces. if you stop right here and said that's a lot of different stuff, think about this one fact in this indictments the links to donald trump, not only by giuliani but also by following the money. both these men broke the law with illegal donations to a trump pac and tried to funnel money to a russian national who wanted to get funds to trump. you take this all together right now, what you have is any one of these things quite damning, not only for these individuals who we always mention are presumed innocent legally, but who are
facing a written indictment and a paper trail, but also damning for mr. rudy giuliani because the best case scenario for him now tonight is that all of this stuff is documented but he is not charged or hit with anything, and that's a possibility. but even that is really bad because these are the people who are carrying out the ukraine plot, which is why they were such key impeachment witnesses. and the worst-case scenario is like other people who have gotten caught up in the new york feds in these kind of criminal probes they do know things about other people and they start to provide them. that's the backdrop for this scene today as the men appeared in court in virginia. this was hours after they were also subpoenaed in the house impeachment inquiry. and this is them meeting, of course, with other trump associates. the top prosecutor in new york who leads the office once run by rudy giuliani says something today that may haunt the white house. he says, this new indictment, this aggressive approach is all
about stopping election crime. >> tacking the integrity of our elections and protecting our elections from unlawful foreign influence, and as this office has made clear, we will not hesitate to investigate or prosecutor those who engain in criminal conduct that draws into question the integrity of our political process. >> the integrity of our political process. i'm joined by "the wall street journa journal"'s shelby holiday and julia ya fee from gq. both have been covering aspects of this ukraine scandal as well as other related international criminal enterprises. good evening to both of you. >> good evening. >> hi. >> julia, what does it mean that this has so many tentacles but as we just laid out for viewers, if you even kind of digest one or two of them, there's a lot of smoke. >> i'll just start with two tentacles. first tentacle is the rudy
tentacle. we also had another tentacle off that tentacle today which was revelations that rudy was using the oval office to pressure trump and then secretary of state rex tillerson to get one of his clients a turkish banker who was violating iran sanctions by trading oil for gold instead of money, he was using his connections to trump to try to get this man released from jail actually in new york as well, so i'm wondering how long it takes for donald trump to say he doesn't know rudy giuliani. the second tentacle, again, is the russian interference, the fact that, you know, we had been looking for the two years of the mueller investigation for a smoking gun, and now we have yet another one of the many smoking guns now on the rack over the fireplace to mix metaphors, which is russian foreign national one who was funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars to these two soviet immigrants
into trump pacs and to republican candidates in violation of election law, and if that isn't russian election interference, even if it wasn't directly mandated by putin, you know, who pressed the red button that said election interference, it's election interference. >> when you lay it out like that, how do you put that in the context of what mr. berman said who of course as i've emphasized he holds the office rudy giuliani used to lead, and he was out there today saying we are not going to tolerate election crimes on our watch. >> well, it was -- it's funny that you mention that that was the office rudy giuliani used to lead. it was also the office that preet berra ra used to lead that the trump white house got rid of hoping they could decapitate that office which has been very aggressive towards the trump administration throughout, and you know, turns out it's preet's all the way down. >> preets all the way down. is that a stephen hawkings turtles all the way down reference? >> mm-hmm.
>> shelby, you've been tracing a lot of these stories. >> i think two things jumped out to me in this indictment, one was the funneling of the russian money, but the other thing was that these two men were working to advance political interests of a ukrainian government official, allegedly. we did a big time line video at "the wall street journal" this week, and we laid out all of the twists and turns, particularly with respect to rudy giuliani and his role in pushing for these two investigations, the biden investigation, and the 2016 russia investigation. when you look at this time limn and you look at him flying to paris and madrid and meeting with some of the ukrainian officials he met with, he also spoke to the prosecutor, former prosecutor general that vice president biden helped push out. i mean, he's been very involved for a year in trying to bring these investigations and the dirt that he claims to have to the surface. well, now we know more about the two men who were giving him that dirt who were setting up the meetings, and they were working, allegedly on behalf of a
ukrainian government official. >> do you see it -- >> who is that official, what are their interests -- >> do you see it as bad news for donald trump and rudy giuliani who have said there's no crimes involved in everything they're doing with ukraine to have these ukrainian american linked officials and businessmen charged today? >> well, it's bad news that they're charged. it's also bad news for their political agenda, because they want everybody to be talking about biden's corruption. they want everybody to be talking about hunter biden making money in ukraine, and are when you look at this trail and who rudy giuliani was working with, nobody seems to be talking so much about joe biden tonight. >> julia, having really reported a lot of this stuff including the way that, look, business is done in different ways in different parts of the world and what is considered normal in some places is illegal here in the united states. indeed, there's laws like the foreign corrupt practices act which basically say they may want bribes over there, but it's illegal for americans and american companies to engage in that abroad let alone here.
how much of this is a situation where even if these individuals can make a kind of an argument, we weren't informed, we didn't know everything, to the extent that giuliani was in the loop on any of this, doesn't he know better? >> yeah, but if you look at the indictment and the number of steps they took to disguise what they were doing, you know, the shell company, this gas thing that had no gas products whatsoever, they knew what they were doing was wrong otherwise they wouldn't be hiding it, you know, and donating money in somebody else's name which is also illegal. they knew what they were doing was wrong. >> do you see any way to beat this other than flip it? i'm not a lawyer. you may one on tv. i'm not. the other thing i wanted to say, another tentacle of this is that donald trump, since the time he was a candidate for the last three years has been openly inviting foreign election interference and help from anybody who wants to offer him help, right? and because now his justice department has been deputized to
pursue all kinds of, i'm sorry, witch hunts and conspiracy theories that are useful to him and his ego, it's now left ironically to the states with democratic political leadership, even though it's republicans who have always harped on state's rights, it's now left to states to fight election interference as well as things like climate change et cetera. >> it's an interesting point. although we would be remiss if we didn't note as you discussed earlier all the way down, it's also a sign of the system working if mr. berman in the trump administration can still bring these cases. >> well, it's one part of the system working, right? it's the system in one state, but the federal system, the federal justice department -- >> berman's federal, that's what i'm saying. >> oh, right, but we also have, you know, the assistant general of the united states flying around the world and trying to impress other foreign intelligence services into shoring up this wild conspiracy theory to help his boss. >> you're talking about attorney
general barr and shelby, mr. barr figures into all of this in very interesting ways. some democrats calling for his recusal. name check by trump on the incriminating call, reportedly meeting with rupert murdoch in addition to his internationaldal ya --daliances. >> we have seen no sign he would recuse himself or there would be a special counsel again. he's shown to be very loyal to president trump, at least for now. i think another piece of this that jumps out is a lot of people were talking about how he shouldn't -- a lot of trump defenders were saying he shouldn't be associated with rudy giuliani, what they're doing are two very different things. giuliani is working on the biden piece, barr is working on the 2016 russia probe, and maybe giuliani's going a little bit rogue. this indictment shows that giuliani wasn't going rogue. some of the things they were advocating for, for example, the ouster of the diplomat, owe von vich, giuliani was behind that
effort. he has admitted to being behind that effort, and it was very successful. >> and trump was behind that effort. >> you and your colleagues at the journal have been reporting that out, and as you say a lot of that reporting looks at the links here which are now some of which are in the indictment that makes it much harder for the white house to cast rudy aside, although they have cast lawyers aside, including lawyers ki indicted in this district. >> they may try. we'll see. >> shelby, julia, i want to thank you. julia made the apt point that we didn't have a lawyer on this panel, but we have one on the next panel, nick akerman. how are you doing? >> great. >> i'm glad to have you. he is one of 17 former watergate special prosecutors, out today with a new op-ed in "the washington post" calling for trump's impeachment on the facts. federal prosecutor for the southern district of new york today out with those new charges against people connected to trump, and this really can't be underscored enough as you try to follow the different avenues. these charges involve contact with a man who will formerly held the same post as the man
you're looking at right now, that's geoff berman, the current chief prosecutor in new york and the old one was rudy giuliani. >> i am tired of being asked over and over again which type of crime is more dangerous, violent crime or white collar crime. all are dangerous and destructive of our society. >> as this office has made clear, we will not hesitate to investigate and prosecute those who engage in criminal conduct that draws into question the integrity of our political process. >> former watergate special prosecutor nick akerman. hello. >> how are you doing? >> i'm all right. you wake up each day, you don't know what the news is going to bring. we certainly didn't know that wanted witnesses in this impeachment probe on ukraine would be arrested, would be more unavailable than otherwise because they're now defendants. when you look at the contrast we just saw of rudy, the prosecutor and today's prosecutor and this indictment, what do you see?
>> i see somebody who is totally different. i served with rudy giuliani for about six months of his career as u.s. attorney. i was an assistant u.s. attorney. he is completely unhinged compared to what he was back then. i mean, there is no way he is the same person. why he is ingratiated himself with donald trump, why he has been able to be set up by these two individuals that were arrested today, i mean, it just shows you that if enough money is thrown at the trumps, whether it's giuliani or any of the trumps, that they are easy marks. even if you take them at kind of the best case scenario, that they weren't out to do anything bad in the first place, you've got some russian out there who's got over a million dollars that's funneling it into these two guys that were arrested today, that put this through phony baloney companies to try and make it look like legitimate campaign contributions, and they've put themselves right into the center of trump world,
and have basically ingratiated themselves with rudy to get him to meet various people in ukraine to follow up on these crazy conspiracy theories that make absolutely no sense. the idea that somehow it was ukraine that was behind the break-in to the democratic national committee in 2016. >> we're not even getting into that. let me show you this wall street journal headline about what we've known. these folks were arrested last night. yesterday, yesterday take a look at this. the two had lunch with giuliani at the trump international hotel in washington on wednesday, which turned out to be their day of arrest. does that tell you that giuliani had no idea this was coming? >> i think he had no idea. i mean, what's amazing is that this was brought by the southern district of new york. you have to wonder if this case bubbled up inside main justice whether or not the attorney general would have put the ax to this case. i mean, i think that he was between a rock and a hard place
here because the southern district is very independent. >> yeah. and we were reminded of that again and again. giuliani was asked today about whether these individuals might have information on him. as i stress in fairness, they may not, but if they have information it could come out. here was his response. he didn't say i'm all good or the facts will support me. this is what he said. we'll put this up. when i asked rudy about the prospect of the fbi flipping these individuals to get to him, gabe sherman wrote today, he replied, quote, good luck. >> well, i don't think -- i mean, he's trying to put off anything he can. we don't know whether he was just some kind of a dupe with these two guys or he was basically inviting them into this conspiracy to get the ukrainian government to dig up dirt on joe biden and his son. >> so let's widen out because you have the unique experience as both a prosecutor and dealing with the special situation of these presidential probes. i see you have the homework, sir. >> i always have my homework,
yes. and i have the indictment. yep. >> so my question to you as you look at this new indictment, is what i'm holding in my hand restricted to the case of these individuals? does it strengthen the democrats' impeachment probe, or is it in your view too early to tell? >> i think it does strengthen the democrats' impeachment probe. i mean, it has elements in there that have to do with the firing of our ambassador to ukraine, who was a foreign service career person that was pushed out for no good reason other than to make it easier for them to get to the ukrainian government to investigate the bidens. it's got information in there about moneys that go to various high level politicians including donald trump, to ingratiate themselves in the trump campaign and in trump world. i mean, there are little pieces in here that raise lots of questions about how did this happen? who knew about it? who was behind it? who is this russian that is
putting in over a million dollars that's not named in here? is this another attempt by vladimir putin to insert himself in the 2020 election? i kind of think so. >> right. and all we know is that the feds say this is a crime and they say their investigation's open, and these are two impeachment witnesses who have bigger problems than congressional subpoenas. what a story, and we haven't even covered all of it. always good to see you sir. >> good to see you new subpoenas for rick perry as white house aides are shell terg tering in . and trump's meeting with rupert murdoch, more on what that could mean. new video of the senate republican who won't answer a straightforward question about things that are basically against the law. later we have a special guest who actually met with one of these newly indicted giuliani associates arrested today. a lot more angles on this wild story, i'm ari melber, you're watching "the beat" on msnbc.
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some things are too important to do yourself. ♪ get customized security with 24/7 monitoring from xfinity home. awarded the best professionally installed system by cnet. simple. easy. awesome. call, click or visit a store today. . key impeachment witnesses arrested today, giuliani under a microscope and now a majority of americans say they do support donald trump both impeached and removed from office. the president now reportedly on edge and looking to mitch mcconnell for help. all of this comes as trump's republican allies have pushed back on certain things like this decision on syria calling it a
disaster, a betrayal ask a mistake. >> this impulsive decision by the president has undone all the gains we've made, thrown the region into further chaos, iran is licking their chops, and if i'm an isis fighter, i've got a second lease on life. >> i disagree with the policy as has been laid out. we are very focused on making certain that we stand with the kurds. >> that is some republican pushback, that's what it looks like right now, and on its own it's about foreign policy. what if it is read by this famously mercurial president as something more as a sign of weakness or cracks or something that could turn into a full blown revolt on his senate trial if it comes to that. well, new reports of a type of panic trump now calling mr. mcconnell up to three times a day saying he'll amplify attacks on republicans who do criticize him, and he's also even turned on fox news. a new poll there says 51% want
trump impeached and removed. trump's response, quote, they suck. meanwhile, the drudge report leading with that fox poll showing that, to millions of americans who catch headlines from there including many conservative americans. other conservative lawyers, meanwhile, and knees athese are who are not just political or partisan folks, they have served in gop administrations. they understand how these scandals play out. some of them banding together to speak out. 16 calling for an expeditious impeachment probe, another saying there comes a tipping point where you look at this and say my country first. the party comes second. this is part of what donald trump is facing right now on a story that i don't have to tell you if you watch the news, a story that keeps taking twists and turns that no one saw coming, not rudy giuliani yesterday sitting in the trump hotel with people who are now arrested, and not donald trump watching senate republicans throw shade. he's throwing shade back to be
sure that's what he does. today when you look at those arrests, when you look at those mug shots, you think who are these people. should they be siphoned off and protected from donald trump, or do they reflect something deeper in the way he's doing business? well, i could tell you we have the perfect guest to talk about these two individuals, former republican congressman carlos curbe curbelo, good to see you, and he met with one of these ukrainian businessmen, and we're here to get into that when we're back in 30 seconds. ♪ here i go again on my--- you realize your vows are a whitesnake song? i do. if you ride, you get it. geico motorcycle. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more.
republican congressman carlos curbelo joins me now. he met with the two arrested ukrainian businessmen and has spoken out against donald trump in many ways. walk us through what we see in this photo, sir. >> so ari, these gentlemen were up on the hill in the spring of last year, and they were lobbying on cannabis policy. were trying to build relationships with members, and they came to my office. they stood out a little bit. they had an air of flam boy yans to them, but i had no reason to believe that they were up to anything nefarious. they didn't give any clues as to any of this that we're now discovering. however, they did make it a point to say a few times that they had very good relationships with the white house, that they were frequent guests at mar-a-lago, and -- >> did they mention giuliani? >> they did mention that they had a close friendship with mayor giuliani. >> what did they say about giuliani? >> i think they were just trying to show off their relationships
and also let legislators know that perhaps they could be helpful in trying to advance legislative priorities through their contacts. >> did they strike you as motivated most by money, personal enrichment or international geopolitics? >> what i gathered is that they were looking for opportunities to make money to use their influence in politics to get deals, to get legislation passed. that's kind of what i gathered, but again, i didn't -- i'd be dishonest if i was saying that i suspected that they were up to any wrongdoing because they didn't really get into any of these details we're learning now. >> we're not saying you're sherlock holmes and you dialed it in. we'll put the photo up again, as america learns about these individuals, as rudy giuliani explains, here ush with them. do you see them as the type of people that will fight this to the end, or did you get any sense they might cooperate with the feds as most people do? >> from what i can tell, it's
obvious there was some type of serious cam papaign violation h, i know it's an allegation, but everything points in that direction. if i had to guess in having interacted briefly with these gentlemen for some time, i think that they're going to want to cooperate as much as possible. >> you do? >> to protect themselves. >> very interesting given that you've taken a measure of them. i want to play something else for you that is so striking as an echo, you know donald trump, and you guys worked together in the sense of you being a republican in congress who had issues with them, and sometimes disagreements. you also know how he treats his staff, even his most loyal staff. you might think, well, he'd never turn on rudy giuliani. i mean, they're really in this ukraine thing together, but that's how people used to think about michael cohen. i want to show you new donald trump on his lawyer rudy, and old donald trump on his now incarcerated lawyer michael cohen. take a look. >> i don't know them. i don't know about them. i don't know what they do, but i don't know.
maybe they were clients of rudy. you'd have to ask rudy. i just don't know. >> what does it mean when donald trump says you'll have to ask one of these lawyers when they're in hot water? >> there's a cautionary tale here for congressional republicans, and ari, we know up to now most republicans are standing by the president. there is an undercurrent. it's still not audible or visible, but i think there's an undercurrent of concern and consternation among republicans. still not obvious to the naked eye, but there's a lesson here for them. the president, when it comes down to it, will look out for himself. look at what the president did to our kurdish allies. he cut them loose because they weren't needed anymore. so as the temperature goes up, and i think we can see more and more of this, then i think congressional republicans should start looking out for themselves but more importantly for the country, for the constitution. >> when you think about your
colleagues, do you think any of your republican colleagues in congress see the ukraine meddling now that he's admitted to it, as worse and different? >> no question, this is different than the russia inquire are you. members of congress, especially republicans were insulated in the sense that the buck stopped with robert mueller. this case is different. congress is the protagonist. everything is out there for everyone to see. the president is personally involved. we don't know how this ends, but we know this is different, and we know -- i know that republicans are taking it a lot more seriously, even if they're not yet speaking out. at least not most of them, some are. >> we like to go to the source, former republican congressman curbelo, thank you very much. this has been enlightening. this impeachment exposure spreading with a new subpoena to another official, this one rick perry. we also have a former white house counsel from the clinton impeachment is a fwa abosaga ab pressure builds and how it could even reach mike pence. >> were you ever aware?
>> i never discussed the issue -- the issue of the bidens with president trump. >> but within the administration, were you ever aware within the administration? do you have concerns about mild memory loss related to aging? prevagen is the number one pharmacist-recommended memory support brand. you can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. i was told to begin my aspirin regimen, blem. and i just didn't listen. until i almost lost my life. my doctors again ordered me to take aspirin,
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new pressure on donald trump's subordinates signaling the impeachment investigation of ukraine is clearly escalating. top committee chairs subpoenaing rick perry, which trump has tried to at times blame for all of this. it comes as two key impeachment witnesses were arrested today, a story we've been recovering, and a new report revealing white house aides are doing a disappearing act to avoid questions, dodging reporters, they don't want to be on the record. then there are the questions facing mike pence. >> were you ever aware of the interests investigating the bidens was at least part of the reason for aid to ukraine being held up? >> i never discussed the issue
of -- the issue of the bidens with president zelensky and -- >> were you ever aware of the administration -- >> what i can tell you is that all of our discussions internally, the president and our team and our contacts and my office with ukraine were entirely focused on the broader issues of the lack of european support and corruption. >> were you ever interested in the bidens being investigated and was that tied to aid to ukraine being held up? >> that's your question. >> adam goldberg is a former special associate white house counsel to president clinton. good evening. >> thank you for having me. >> what do you see as important here? >> for me i think we have two cabinet officials and the vice president who are also at risk of being impeached and not just convicted and removed from office, but also disqualified from future office. right now people are talking about the magic number of 20, the number of republicans needed to get to 67 and remove president trump from office, but for me the magic number most immediately is four.
if we can get four republican senators, then we might have enough senators to a majority to disqualify president trump, secretary pompeo, secretary perry, vice president pence from holding future office. >> when you look at pence, does he have exposure? >> security adviser was on the fated phone call between president trump and the president of ukraine, he got a readout of that call, and then it's been reported that in his conversations with president zelensky he talked about about the importance of them fighting corruption. those were clear code words that he knew about. >> in your argument, when they say corruption, that's code for be corrupt with us? >> that's right. because president trump on that phone call with the president of ukraine made very clear that corruption was investigating joe biden and his son and he was investigating this crazy conspiracy about ukraine interpeeinte
interfering in our elections instead of russia. >> we have talked a lot about in the press and in washington and in in political circles about the idea that donald trump does seem to get away with more things than other presidents. do you think in some sense that may be the problem or the hubris that undid him here? because he has really been making this up as he goes along, and as we just reported a lot of people around him appear to think this one is different. they're going dark. they're quiet. they see themselves as having exposure. in your role as a counsel in a white house, do you think that's the right strategy for them? >> so their strategy is clearly just to lie and continue lying about what they did and hoping that enough people believe the lie and come to believe the lie. when i was in the clinton white house, that was not our strategy. we countered and said what the president did was not impeachable, subjected him to be removed from office. we went to work -- >> did you cooperate with the congd. we provided witnesses. we testified before them during the house impeachment hearings
themselves. absolutely. >> it's very interesting given your knowledge and your personal experience adam goldberg, i hope you'll come back on "the beat" because these topics may not be going away. >> thanks for having me. >> thank you. up ahead, we have on this program a senator and presidential candidate to discuss not only giuliani but why the senate might get testimony from him and whether today complicates that. and i'm also going to dive into giuliani's record at sdny including what it means when the people who used to bust crime are now caught up at least in their associates being indicted. how are we doing? fabulous. ♪ i wonder how the firm's doing without its fearless leader. ♪ you sure you want to leave that all behind? yeah. stay restless, with the icon that does the same. the new rx crafted by lexus. lease the 2020 rx 350 all wheel drive for $439/month for 36 months.
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today's surprise indictment of several giuliani associates isn't just national news, it also marks quite the turn around for giuliani, a top prosecutor who led the probe. geoff berman holds the same job giuliani did as new york's top prosecutor. giuliani on the other side of the office he led with a tough on crime agenda. >> let me tell you that i know about the crime that you have to deal with. i understand the fear that you have. >> a tough mayor on crime, the mayor opposes the death penalty. >> giuliani waging a very public campaign against crime in new york, paving his path to america's most famous mayor. but as america reassesses our criminal justice system, i want to tell you it's important to remember many democrats echoed a similar tough on crime agenda. >> people who commit crimes should be caught, convicted, and
punished. >> they are often the kinds of kids that are called super predatori predato predators. no conscience, no empathy. we can talk about why they ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel. >> tens of thousands of them born out of wedlock without parents, without supervision, without any structure, without any conscience developing. >> we must take back the streets. >> take back the streets. super predators, a crime had been up in many places. so is this backlash which included a harsh 94 climb bill signed by clinton that cut education for inmates added boot camps for minors and other rules that grew the prison population. it was out of that dynamic crime and backlash in urban america that christopher wallace emerged from brooklyn, you may also known him as the notorious b.i.g. then 21-year-old musician who revitalized hip-hop music on the east coast with lines that reverberate to this day.
narrating his everyday struggle, addressing his teachers and neighbors, and pleading with america to listen to the truth he was writing and not to revert to, as he put it, stereotypes of a black male misunderstood. well this fall marks the 25th anniversary of wallace's debut album, a work so iconic it's been honored on the familiar of congress by hakeem jeffries who represents wallace's district in brooklyn. >> it was all a dream, i used to read word up magazine, those were the words of the late, great notorious b.i.g. but his words liver on forever. >> wallace's debut album was called ready to die and detailed how he felt many black men had to grow up ready for that fate, and how the system and the city held them down. walla wallace rapped about seeing body after body and i know mayor giuliani ain't trying to see a black man turn to john gotti.
he also advocated a better life on the right side of the law. many remember that infamous feud between west and east coast and how it turned deadly, but remember, wallace made a public appeal for peace. take this 1997 interview in california after the murder of tupac shakur. wallace saying he was working to avoid feeding into the violence. he said with tupac's demise, he had a special obligation to try to squash the violence. >> don't feed into it. if you feed into it, it don't do nothing but escalate. untimely demise or whatever, i've got to be the one to flip it and take my power and flip it like, yo, they got to be dead, you know what i'm saying, because he can't do that. he can't be the one to be like yo, i want to squash it because he's gone. i've got to take the weight for both sides. that's twhwhy i'm out here. >> a public call to stop the violence, and that was part of the evolution america was witnessing of that then
24-year-old. but weeks later he was also murdered. >> the gangster rap world has been shaken again, this time by the violent death of the performer known as notorious b.i.g. >> across the nation and especially in new york, mourners paid tribute to that young man cut down so far before his time remembering the musician, his work, his words, and you know, we can't know how he would have grown up, but his music did grapple with the possibility of death. you know, the last song on that first album had mr. wallace imagining if he did die young, and in the song he addressed his mom from beyond the grave saying, quote, i wonder if i died would tears even come to her eyes, and then he addressed her saying forgive me for my disrespect. forgive me for my lies. the tragedy was that of course the art was soon echoed by reality, a young man trying to share with his mom and his friends the whole world his fears and his regrets, something
we can all think about when you look at how music and culture affects our lives and makes its way all the way to the house floor. so i want to tell you to mark this 25th anniversary, we just had some of the people that that album touched including, yes, the congressman you just heard from, hakeem jeffries and musical leaders who knew him, for this cultural music discussion. we did it right here in brooklyn. you can listen it too if you want. it is up on our podcast. you can go for free to msnbc.com/biggie or wherever you get your podcasts. we think it's a discussion worth having. so i wanted to share that with you. we have a lot more in the show. i have a live interview next with a 2020 presidential candidate and senator about trump impeachment and a whole lot more. so you only pay for what you need.
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i'm joined now by senate judiciary committee member and 2020 presidential candidate amy klobuchar. i want to begin with some news you're make. you've written this new letter to the justice department calling for an investigation on who is financing giuliani's efforts and also to determine whether he violated the law by soliciting foreign assistance in u.s. elections. strong words. what are you going after here? >> well, i'm going after the fact first of all i serve on the judiciary committee but i'm also
the ranking democrat and my fear here these are people business associates of him and they were up to incredibly shady things, illegal things, getting money, funneling foreign money. and you pair that with the fact they worked with him and he was out trying to get dirt on a political opponent of the president of the united states. and this leads us right to where the whistleblower is. so under the election laws it is a violation, of course, to take foreign money. but it's also a violation to get something of value from a foreign government which would include digging up dirt. that's why it's important to determine what giuliani's role was. when the whistleblower complaint came over they said it wasn't criminal and they didn't even
send it over to the federal election commission which they're supposed to do. >> it's a very fair question. indeed our viewers watching this program will know there's a lot of questions left pertaining to giuliani and as you said mr. barr seemed to immediately say there was no probe whatsoever into any of these issues. maybe sdny didn't get the memo. and yet even given that logic you know i have to press you and ask you something else. which is some of your critics are going to look at this and say wait a minute, if it's wrong for donald trump to talk about investigations into clinton quote-unquote lock her up and biden, are you going down a similar path as i read your letter for a similar probe of mr. giuliani who's aligned with the president? >> this is an impeachment proceeding going on in theous. and you have even had republican governors say it should proceed. you have had chuck grassly who was once a chairman of the judiciary committee make it very clear that the whistleblower has
rights and should be protected. and you have people like the former presidential candidate mitt romney say something's wrong here. so look at what this is. this is very clear path where the president of the united states, there's a phone call with a record of trying to put his own political partisan business interests, you name it, in front of our country's. and if he is looking at something of value, that is violation. and it is a narrow focus in the house on this subject, not relitigating the past as so many of these other matters have done. they're looking at ongoing conduct right now. >> i have to ask you about breaking news out of the "the washington post" and i want to warn in fairness you may not have read this article but you are versed on the issues. but in the last ten minutes from "the washington post" a really blockbuster story that says officials, up to four different national security officials raised alarms about the ukraine policy issues before and
directly after donald trump's now infamous call with the ukrainian president. i'm going to read a little bit of this lead for the benefit of our viewers and see what you think. i know you've been working on these issues. "the washington post" says at least four national security officers were so quote so alarmed they raised concerns with the white house lawyer quote both before and quote immediately after the call according to officials. the nature and timing of these undisclosed discussions indicates the officials were delivering warnings through quote official white house channels earlier than was previously known. the implication here being that far from one or two whistleblowers all sorts of senior people viewed this as a red siren event, with the caveat you haven't read the whole story, anything you want to say about it? >> i'm a former prosecutor and i've been predicting this.
these as were as reported the whistleblower was a cia agent and you can acknowledge there were a lot of people related to this. we have ukraine and i went there with john mccain and linda graham stood there on the front line with them, saw what a fledgling democracy it is, how much they depend on america's credibility and america's aid. trump freezes part of that aid and then makes the call and says i needs a favor. this just smells to high heaven this was not about putting our country first. and it's that simple. and it doesn't surprise me at all when you have patriots and other people who are trying to protect the interests of our country and not russia are coming forward when we have long-standing support for
ukraine and ukraine's independence. and this just put everything on its head and continues to in our work we must be doing with ukraine and the other baltic nations. zp really laid out there. a lot of food for thought given the scandals and levels. senator klobuchar, thanks for coming back on "the beat." >> president trump will be in my state claiming he can win it tonight, but that's where he is tonight and it's his first rally since this investigation opened. >> amy klobuchar, sort of anti-plugging the trump rally. >> that is exactly right. >> "hardball" is up right now. flight risks. let's play hardball.