tv MSNBC Live With Katy Tur MSNBC October 14, 2019 11:00am-12:00pm PDT
interview tonight with lester holt during nightly news on your nbc station. thank you for watching. you can catch me every week day morning at 5:00 a.m. right now katy tur picks up the coverage. >> good to see you.day, even on holiday. >> good afternoon. it's 11:00 a.m. out west and 2 p.m. in washington. donald trump's own people could be his undoing. it's day 21 of the impeachment inquiry, and here is what's happening. the president's former top advisory on russia and europe is behind closed door with three congressional committees giving testimony long-feared by white house insiders. a person familiar says she will tell lawmakers that rudy giuliani and eu ambassador gordon sonland worked together to sidestep the national security council and pursue their own shadow agenda in ukraine. on thursday sonland who got the job after giving 1 million to donald trump's inaugural
committee is expected to call into question that no quid pro quo text he sent another diplomat. he'll tell lawmakers that the president dictated that text to him. according to "the washington post," sonland will say of that text, it's only true if the president said it, not that it was the truth. and this could be just the beginning. vice president mike pence, rudy giuliani, the pentagon, and omb all have until tuesday to hand over ukraine documents under congressional subpoena. step back and take this together. here at home the president's own people are tearing down his defenses. his closest advisers are facing subpoenas. support for impeachment is ticking upward. over seas he's abandoned a long-time ally and his near total withdrawal from northern syria would potentially allow isis to reconstitute. while republicans are trying to avoid questions on ukraine, they're condemning his choices in syria and getting louder by
the day. make no mistake, the president is in a precarious position leaving us wondering could he be in the middle of a perfect storm? joining me covering capitol hill, geoff bennett covering the state department. nbc news national reporter josh letterman. also with me "l.a. times" white house reporter eli stokels and white house correspondent and msnbc political analyst yamiche alcindor. jeff, let's start with you. do we know any of what hill is telling lawmakers right now behind closed doors? >> reporter: our reporting is heading into today's deposition hill was prepared to tell investigators rudy giuliani and gordon sonland, the ambassador to the eu, ran an outside influence scheme that was aimed at digging up or manufacturing damaging information about the bidens and also smearing maria van vich.
our reporting is going to make the point they were doing this outside the state department protocols even circumventing john bolton who at the time was the national security adviser. now hill left the white house, left the nfc before this july 25th th call in question happened. you can certainly tell house investigators about the motivations of those involved and get a sense of what happened leading up to it. and hill is an interesting person or was an interesting person in the trump orbit, because she was a well-known russia hawk. she was a putin skeptic. she at times found herself at odds against the president's stated desire to make nice with vladimir putin. and so what's really interesting here is that her testimony, her reported testimony, at least, matches up with what kurt volker told the committees. apparently much of what others told that rudy giuliani was working outside the normal channels at president trump's behest, it appears.
>> and josh, i know you've been doing a lot of reporting on hill and what's happening at the state department. why would she if i'm correct on this, and tell me if i'm not. i've read reporting she was uncomfortable with the idea of donald trump making that phone call to president zielinski on july 25th. why was that? >> well, that's something that lawmakers are going to be asking her about today. we know that fiona hill had a lot of appreciation for doing things by the book. one of the top experts on russian president vladimir putin. and so she had deep concerns about the fact that this was not going through the normal process. that rudy giuliani and gordon sonland, the ambassador to the eu were basically running their own show on ukraine and potentially involving other issues into that such as whether the ukrainians would agree to dig up dirt on biden's political opponents. >> flesh out, what was the
relationship between gordon son lavr lapd, the eu ambassador and drump. and why was he getting involved in the ukraine matters when it's not part of the european union? >> gordon sonland did not have any diplomatic experience before working with the trump administration. he was a large donor to the trump campaign. donated about $1 million to the trump transition, and then after trump took office was nominated to be ambassador to the eu. he said in an interview unetted -- trump gave him the added role of dealing with the ukraine portfolio but given the fact that we had an ambassador to ukraine as well as a special envoy to ukraine, kurt volker, it's been unclear why exactly this eu ambassador had this role dealing with ukraine if not to try to advance some of the president's personal political interests. >> let's refamiliarize everybody with the text mes sans once again in question that keep
coming up. there were two text messages between bill taylor, a diplomat working on ukraine and bill sonland. bill taylor says as i said on the phone, i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign. five hours later gordon sonland responds bill, i believe you are incorrect about president trump's intentions. the president has been crystal clear. no quid pro quos of any kind. the president is trying to evaluate if ukraine is going to adopt the transparency and reforms that president zielinski promised during his campaign. i suggest we stop the back and forth by text. again, this is five hours later. suddenly it sounded lawyerly, much different than the tone the rest of the text and now we're learning that gordon sonland is saying he spoke with the president and the president dictated that text to him. this is all kind of stacking up against the president. isn't it, eli? >> yeah, especially if sonland
verses himself before the committee when he testifies on thursday. talking to the president, conferring with him and then responding the text message, it would explain the five hour gap between messages and it also will tell you something i think about the way this is going that ambassador sonland might feel the need to just put his cards on the table and be honest with lawmakers and to not carry the president's water any further than he already has. you're seeing him, seeing fiona hill. we saw the ambassador last week. the white house has tried to prevent a lot of these people from coming forward. the president tried to intimidate other whistle blowers. it's not working. there are people coming forward. some of them are having to be subpoenaed. they are defying the white house and the state department, in their efforts to silence these individuals and they are making the calculation at this point that they need to come forward and be truthful and cooperate with this impeachment inquiry. >> all of this keeps reminding everybody on my team of that
moment when michael cohen was testifying, talking about the way donald trump operates. he doesn't say anything in writing. he doesn't send text messages or emails. he doesn't necessarily say i want you to do this directly, but everyone knows what he means. here is michael cohen from about a year ago now with justin amash. >>. >> you suggested that the president sometimes communicates his wishes indirectly. for example, you said, quote, mr. trump did not directly tell me to lie to congress. that's not how he operates, end quote. can you explain how he does this? >> sure. it would be no different if i said that's the nicest looking tie i've ever seen. isn't it? what are you going to do? are you going to fight with him? the answer is no. the answer is yes, it's the nicest looking tie i've ever seen. he doesn't give you questions or orders. he speaks in a code, and i understand the code, because i've been around him for a
decade. >> it was from february 27th. not quite a year ago. it feels like a lifetime ago. eli, i mean, that sort of the way donald trump operates, you're followed him as long as i have. i mean, how does this connect to the way he's running the government. >> well, i think it's really pertinent to the transcript of the call, the summary of the call the white house has put out on the president is engaged in telling everybody, telling the country right now that he put out the transcript somehow surprised everybody, and that the transcript is exculpatory. the summary has the president asking the president of ukraine for a favor. the president has gone out. trump has said oh, it's not explicit. i never asked him to do it. i never tied it to the financial aid, but if you remember back to that michael cohen clip, and you think about the way the president communicates, it's right there on the page on a summary the white house put out. the president sort of implying
to ukraine look, i need a favor, though, after they talked about the aid and the ukraine purchase of military equipment. i need a favor, though. this is all the -- the facts of this are right there on the page. it may not be explicit. do this or i won't give you the money. but it's not all that subtle. >> yamiche, you've been roaming around washington getting a sense of what's happening. in this instance, republicans have basically been trying to avoid reporters and if reporters ask them direct questions about how whether they think it's appropriate for donald trump to talk like this with ukraine or so ask a foreign government to look into the bidens, they'll twist themselves into pretzels in order to avoid answering that direct question. but when it comes to what's happening in syria, which we're going to get to in a few minutes, they're very vocal. our question is is this the perfect storm where impeachment is taking up, the subpoenas are coming out, donald trump's own people are providing damaging
testimony about what was really going on. the syria stuff is happening. is there a scenario you can envision where all of this falls into place against the president and somehow republicans start breaking? >> no, i think there's a perfect storm that's happening, but we're not -- i'm not sure whether or not that's going to ultimately lead to the president having the republican party turn against him which is really the only thing that's going to at all really adversely affect his presidency. republicans are angry about syria. it is questionable why the president would be doing this and having this issue with syria come out when he's in the middle of an impeachment fight. he needs every republican on capitol hill behind him. he's angering people like lindsey graham, an ally who stuck with him through scandal and controversy. now they're saying look, we don't agree with the president on this. we think he's not acting in the way an american president should. i think there's i guess in some way a way to envision syria
somehow meshing with ukraine, but when you have republicans loathed to talk about whether or not the president should be able to push a foreign leader to investigate his political rival for his own political grain, and what we're seeing on capitol hill is we'll notice that this call, this july 25th call was not the beginning of the controversy. in fact, it was almost the middle of it. fiona hill's testimony is or from what we understand from the reporting and others, she's going to say this was part of a long campaign by rudy giuliani to pressure the ukrainian government. so what we see there is the president having to face the fact that even as he says the whistle blower is wrong, people in his government are coming forward to say that call was just the beginning of this. it was the tip of the iceberg here. >> yamiche, thank you so much for tieing it together. geoff bennett, thank you. eli, thank you. we appreciate it. still ahead, elizabeth warren told a lie on purpose using facebook against itself.
plus a former fbi whistle blower on what it's like to be a whistleblower and why the law does not protect people like him. first the president orders a near total withdrawal of troops from northern syria forcing our long-time allies to seek help from our former enemies. emies. billions of mouths. billions of problems. dry mouth? parched mouth? cotton mouth? there's a therabreath for you. therabreath oral rinse and lozenges. help relieve dry mouth using natural enzymes to soothe and moisturize.
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former adversary to defend themselves. syrian government troops are moving north toward turkey's border today after the kurds called on syria's bashar al assad and russia to help them. and turkey has found allies. arab militias with links to former members of al qaeda and isis who claim to execute kurds roadside over the weekend. today president trump stood by his order for a near total withdrawal of u.s. troops even after reports that 800 members escaped. in response he tweeted the kurds may be releasing some prisoners to get us involved. there's no reporting on the ground that supports the president's suggestion. joining me from turkey, keir simmons and mac bradley. gentlemen, welcome. keir, tell us what you're seeing
today. >> reporter: well, we spent the day outside of the turkish side looking at the syrian town that is famous because that was where u.s. forces together with mostly kurdish forces fought isis and won. and it is really the story of syria right now in kobani. the base above it that was occupied by the u.s. forces, well, they have left. and now kobani is waiting for russian-backed syrian troops. president asaad's troops to arrive there. the race is on right now across syria to grab land both on behalf of president asaad and on behalf of president erdogan. whether or not that land grab is intended to try and keep that land or whether it is for negotiation, that is a good question. another fear and question right now is whether those two sides, president asaad's side and president erdogan's side end up clashing because they are, of course, foes.
looking over all of this is president putin who has the ability to pick up the phone to both leaders and so another scenario here is that president putin ends up with the peacemaker. agreeing a deal where both sides take factions. squeezed between all of this, of course, the former u.s. allies, we have to say former now, the kurds who have raced to do a deal with damascus to try to survive. and the u.s. troops are still in syria, and, of course, amid all this, this question of former isis members escaping from camps around 80 0 thought to have escaped from one camp. there are others. there are former fighters in other camps who may escape. we don't know exactly how things are playing out, but that's a picture of kind of how it looks, and the possible scenarios going forward, i guess. >> matt, when it comes to isis, what's at stake here with the u.s. no longer helping to secure
those prisoners? if isis members were to be released back and the president suggesting that the kurds are doing this on purpose without any evidence, what's at stake in how dangerous can it get? >> reporter: well, if there's women and children able to flee from a camp like this, and i don't want to sound sexist, it could also mean the 12,000 hardened jihadis fighting for the better part of the last decade, they also stand a risk of escaping as well. that's a major threat. and of course, we heard very early on in this battle that the sdf, syrian democratic forces, no longer considered forwarding their isis charges as a priority. they were going to go to the border. when president trump said that they might be releasing them kind of out of spite, that's possible. they might decide that they just wanted to get back at the u.s.
because they were the tip of the spear in the u.s. fight against islamic state for so many years. and now they feel this incredible sense of due police tis nous and they might want to get back at them. there is, as you said, no evidence they would want to do that, but at the same time, you know, they really have a much bigger fight on their hands now that they have this alliance with the syrians and with russia, things might be able to calm down. they might be able to stabilize and they might be able to allow more resources to secure the 12,000 isis jihadis who are still in detention. the problem is there are governments to don't know what to do with the refugees coming out of this. a lot of them have some level of affiliation with the islamic state. it's hard to decide who is aligned and who is a regular kurd and arab. this is going to be a massive unraveling, and it's all going to come out in the midst of
spiraling war. >> keir, what does it mean that turkey, a nato ally is now turning or working with former al qaeda and isis members? now, fighting alongside them. >> well, this is the complexity of syria, and it's been the case for a long time, that different enemies are friends, friends are enemies. it is a very difficult picture. but, look, here's the thing. in the initial stages of the syrian conflict, the rebels who rose up against president asaad were supported by turkey. and president erdogan. some of those rebels were islamists. they were in some cases al qaeda sympathize sympathizers. they did a lot of the fighting in those early stages. so it would not be surprising if among -- and it is the case, i think it really is the case that
amongst those turkish supported militia, there are jihadists with sympathies toward al qaeda, and then, look, when it comes to isis, there are cases of al qaeda members who switched over to isis. you know, these aren't two completely separate groups. one morphed out of the other. so yes, there will be those fighters out in syria, and that is a concern, ckaty. they'll have no concerns about the rules of war or human rights. they will be ruthless and determined, and it is a frightening picture. >> keir simmons and matt bradley. thank you very much. and breaking news from fort worth, texas. the officer who shot and killed a black woman inside her home over the weekend has just resigned. the interim police chief announcing, announced that moments ago. gabe gutierrez joins me now from the phone. what exactly can you tell us? what happened? >> reporter: hi, there, katy.
officer aaron dean publicly identified for the first time, police chief in fort worth said that he tendered his resignation this morning. the officer did before he met with the chief. the chief also said that if the officer hadn't done that, he would have been fired anyway. there are currently two investigations ongoing into this case. the internal affairs investigation and a major case unit investigation. now, aaron dean, that officer, he was hired by the police department in august of 2017. and he was licensed as a peace officer in april of 2018. that's last year. he could potentially face criminal charges. now, katy, we were following this story. this is the case that broke over the weekend over in fort worth, texas. there was a shooting. it was captured on body camera footage. a neighbor late friday night had called for a welfare check because he noticed the house next door, the door was open. the lights were on.
he called to a nonemergency number. several hours later an officer showed up. that's what was captured on video. the officer shining a flashlight into the window and in and around the perimeter of a house, and then he opened fire within seconds of asking this woman, 28 years old. she was babysitting her 8-year-old nephew. she was in that home when he opened fire. there's still many questions ongoing about what comes next here, why he opened fire. the fort worth pd said he perceived a threat but didn't say what it was. the breaking news, just now, ongoing, the interim police chief in fort worth says that officer has resigned and if he hadn't resigned, he would have been fired anyway. >> gabe, let's play a moment from that press conference. again, this is the interim police chief of fort worth, texas. >> i certainly have not been
able to make sense of why she had to lose her life. the officer tendered his resignation this morning before we met. even though he no longer works for the city, we'll continue the administrative investigation as if he did. the case will be completed and reviewed by the chain of command. had the officer not resigned, i would have fired him for violations of several policies including our use of force policy, our deescalation policy and unprofessional conduct. >> and here is the victim's brother talking about this tragic, tragic case a little bit earlier. >> you have been trained. you know better. so you have to answer for that. not in your command. not in your department. someone comes in and investigates the whole incident. fort worth pd cannot investigate themselves. this man murdered someone.
he should be arrested. >> that's the victim's brother there. gabe, this is the second time i guess just this year that this has happened in texas where a black person was shot and killed inside their own home for no other reason than them being inside their own home. it seems like they scared a police officer by being black. that's what it looks like from the outside. >> well, katy, that's certainly what the victim's family is saying at this point, and yes, as you mentioned just within the past few weeks, really, there's been so much talk here in this same area of this very situation. you recall two weeks ago or so amber guyger, the former dallas police officer who was shot and killed -- her upstairs neighbor because she claims she mistook him as a burglar.
she was in the wrong apartment. she was convicted of murder. now the same civil rights attorney representing the family of bolton john, the victim in that case, he is now remreprese this family. he says this speaks to a larger issue. he wants a federal investigation here. he says that the family is outraged that of all things that she was inside her home babysitting her eight-year-old nephew. they can't understand how this could possibly happen. they say it is part of a -- they want reforms, police reforms, better training, perhaps. they also say that there have been several deadly shootings involved in the fort worth department. there have been a half dozen or so in fort worth this year. amber guyger happened last year, but we had -- it was a vigil for
the victim last night. we expect more demands for answers in the coming days. >> gabe gutierrez, thank you for joining us. we'll be right back bacease that can disrupt your life for weeks. in severe cases, pneumococcal pneumonia can put you in the hospital. it can hit quickly, without warning, making you miss out on what matters most. just one dose of the prevnar 13® vaccine can help protect you from pneumococcal pneumonia. it's not a yearly shot. prevnar 13® is approved for adults to help prevent infections from 13 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. don't get prevnar 13® if you have had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects were pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, limited arm movement, fatigue, headache, muscle pain, joint pain, less appetite, vomiting, fever,
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i trust em, i think you can too. question. politico is reporting that ceo mark zuckerberg has been hosting informal talks with prominent conservative journalists commentators and at least one republican lawmaker. this as elizabeth warren is using fake news to prove a point. a new facebook ad from her endorsed presidente, breaking trump for reelection. in the same ad warren tells the viewer of the ad it's not really true. the ad makes a larger argument about facebook's perceived willingness to provide a flat form for deceptive or deceitful political ads. it is the latest shot in an ongoing feud between elizabeth warren and silicone valley. one of the massachusetts
senators's signature plans to a proposal to break up the major tech companies. joining me cecilia kang, and rick stingl, the author of "information wars". cecilia, what exactly is warren trying to do by posting this fake ad on facebook? >> well, she's trying to draw attention to the issue to facebook's policy which is basically to take a completely hands off approach when it comes to political content on the site, political ads as well as organic political posts and trying to dare mark zuckerberg and facebook to deal with what is an obvious fake ad. it's an ad filled with misinformation. mark zuckerberg and facebook obviously have not endorsed any candidate, and it's goad the company into making some sort of a policy change. >> and facebook says that they don't bear the responsibility of deciding what's fake and what's
not fake? they try to say that the broadcast networks have the same policy? >> yes. it was very interesting that they compared themselves to regulated broadcast companies, that who in exchange, that in exchange for use of the public air waves have to abide by fcc regulation. and it's true that these broadcasters have run this ad. there are rules that they cannot actually withhold information from political candidates. but the issue with facebook is that they have decided in the way they stand apart in some ways as well as other platforms like youtube which is new orleans and -- enormous. information travels so quickly across the sites. and the company announced a few weeks ago that number one, they would not fact check political ads to see if there are accuracies or inaccuracies in the ads. and number two, even when they
found that content speech post vide videos, posted by a political candidate, if it contains fls information, they would keep that content in contact and on the site, because they believe there's a newsworthy aspect to having them online. that's a benefit for people. >> in talking act the broadcast networks, we are regulated by the fcc in this scenario. we can't do anything about it. what we can do on the broadcast side of things is come on television, say what you just saw is not true, and we take our responsibility to fact check seriously. facebook, on the other hand, is not regulated the same way we are, and they're saying we don't have any responsibility whatsoever. rick, you wrote a whole book about how disinformation is polluting our minds and our elections. what sort of responsibility does facebook actually have? >> well, section 230 of the communications and decency act
written in 1996 before facebook was created gives the platform companies that publish third party content immunity from liability for any of that content. >> because they say they're platforms. >> they're platforms and not publishers. one of the mistakes i would say facebook made is likening themselves to a broadcast network which has no immunity. you can't come here and defame somebody without being sued but facebook can publish something that's defamatory without being sued because they're protected by that law. >> is he making an argument that facebook and other social media platforms would be regulated? >> well, mark zuckerberg has talked about that before. even in his testimony earlier this last year he basically talked about the need for more regulation. one of the things i advocate in the book is making the companies more liable for their content. they have to make a good faith effort to take down content that is defamatory or false. the reason that laelizabeth
warren's ad is interesting, it is false content. and have a -- >> easy to fact check. >> that's protected by the first amendment, but it shouldn't be protected by facebook. the first amendment didn't apply to private companies. one of the things i advocate is the companies need to have an agreement where they take down false content. >> elizabeth warren thinks facebook and other tech companies are too big. they're too big to take the responsibility that's necessary and self-regulate. her plan for breaking them apart, is that a way to fix this? >> you know, i think when facebook was growing and when they bought instagram, i think congress as we saw when congress was questioning mark zuckerberg is completely ignorant about how -- >> they're inept when it comes to this and how it works. >> that's defamatory. i'm going to see you for that. >> they did not -- they were ignorant in how the tech companies -- >> yes. it's like a car company buying
another car company and a headlight company. i don't think they were aware of the ramifications of it at the time. >> rick, the book the "information wars". good to have you. and great reporting cecilia. thank you. >> thank you. 2020 democrats preparing. 12 contenders take the stage tomorrow. the largest one night field so far. two are there after failing to qualify for last month's taebt. at this point does anyone not named biden, warren, sanders and maybe buttigieg have any hope of breaking out. allie has our debate preview. what are you watching for? >> reporter: you mentioned the size of that debate stage. we know what it looks like to have 10 of these people on the stage vying for the moment. seeing 12 of them and seeing how they make the most of that is what i'm looking for.
you mentioned the three names at the top of the polls in the race. bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, joe biden. but there are other candidates on the stage who all have to make the most of this moment, because they may not be on the stage in november. at least not yet. one person who doesn't have that problem is tom steyer. this is the first time we're seeing him on the debate stage. his first debate stage ever. i'm interested in seeing if his campaign can execute basically their plan which is to introduce him for the first time to voters. this is the first time he's going to be on the stage, and he has the luxury of knowing he's going to be on the stage in november. two people who don't that v that luxury. beto o'roarke and amy klobuchar. in the beto o'roarke conversations, they say they're looking for substance over flash in that moment trying to present him as a candidate with bold ideas. and on the amy klobuchar front, i asked her yesterday what her metric of success is tomorrow night. here's what she told me. >> success would be that they mention me the next day. because there are 12 people, and
it is a lot of people up there on the stage. the last debate i thought went well for me. i was able to make the case that i don't want to just be the president for half of america but all of america. i think i stood out on that stage. and that seems to be the measure of success. >> and cay ty, she jokes about the metric of success being the media talking about her the next day, but for many of the candidates the impeachment has shifted away from the focus of 2020. they're hoping this moment attracts the attention of voters and can give the candidates momentum. >> and this is the first time bernie sanders will be on the campaign trail. he'll be returning to the debate stage after his heart attack a few weeks ago. i guess what does that mean for him? and how are the other candidates going to handle it? >> reporter: the stakes are high. yeah. the stakes are high for him. clearly there's a lot riding on this next debate performance. he has been down recovering in
burlington, vermont. our colleagues have been tracking that. but bernie sanders could potentially make a very personal and poignant point on the debate stage if he does make a personal anecdote out of this latest health scare in connection with medicare for all. obviously that's one of his signature policy proposals. and if he does what he did in the statement after he got out of the hospital by saying i was lucky to have health care coverage but many americans don't have that ability to cover ran don health scares and issues with health insurance, i think that could be a poignant moment on him shifting the focus away from his health and onto health care. >> allie, thank you. coming up, i'm going to speak to an fbi whistleblower about why he thinks the laws meant to protect whistleblowers actually trap them instead. stay with us.
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the person up for failure. the whistleblowers now face a formal threat of abuse with partisan smears questioning their motives. unfortunately congress rendered itself all but impotent to protect them. joining me former fbi whistleblower and fellow at the brennan center for justice j michael german. thank you for being here. why do you argue this system is broken when it comes to intelligence whistleblowers? >> because in a normal system you would want congress to be able to get information it needs to do it oversight function as rapidly as possible. but by creating a complex process that an intelligence agency whistleblower has to navigate, it makes it harder for them to get information and presents more obstacles. >> why are there more obstacles
presented for those sorts of whistleblowers? it seems like of all the whistleblowers out there, they're potentially the most, i guess, national security sensitive. >> critical. >> and their job is to find illegality. that was my job as an fbi agent. go out and find criminal activity, and to find threats of national security. when they find them due to mismanagement been their own agency or illegality within their own agency, you would expect that would be something congress would want to know about right away, and the agency would want to know right away. but what the agency successfully argued when the whistleblower action was put in place was the secrecy necessary to their effective work required that that be protected. but it ignores the fact that as an fbi agent, i already had access to all that information. and the members of congress on the judiciary committee and intelligence committees have clearance. they all know how to handle classified information and know
how to do that properly and have no interest in leaking it. the idea that you needed this process to protect secrets, i don't think is true. and i think it's the opposite. by creating a process that makes it harder for a whistleblower to get information to the people who need to see it, it's more likely to produce leaks. >> what do you think is going to happen if this whistleblower ends up having to testify? >> well, i think what's already happening is that there's a feeding frenzy trying to denigrate the motives of the whistleblower, the background of the whistleblower, and throwing this person into that feeding frenzy i think would be difficult for their lives and certainly difficult for them to continue working in the national security establishment trying to do what they're paid to do. >> can i step back for a moment and go back to the leaks? i don't think we underscored that enough. you say that this -- the current process by which whistleblowers and the intelligence community have to go through makes it more likely that they will leak to the press. why would it make them more
likely to leak potentially sensitive information to people who don't have the classification? >> because normally whistleblowers are trying to get the information to somebody who can take action, but by funneling them into a system that sprezs them to be able to move the information -- >> like the whistleblower. >> exactly and this played out at least as long as the reporting is correct, as you would imagine. right? there was first an attempt to go to legal counsel. how do i do this? and then an attempt to reach out to the committee. how do i do this in nobody joins one of these agencies thinking i'm going to be a whistleblower. >> there's not a handbook in your welcoming pact that says here's how you report wrong doing? >> right. of course. it's a complex process, and the agencies are very aggressive and i know this from my own case in trying to argue that any step outside the process removes you forfeit any protection. so now we can retaliate against you all we want. that should not be their
interest in any case. >> your solution is to make all whistleblowers in the intel community the same as any federal whistleblower. they can go directly to congress? >> exactly. there are rules to protect classified information that both parties know well. congress should want to get that information as quickly as possible, and on the back end giving them an independent ajute cay or the when they bring a retaliation. >> i think it's important to note that the whistleblower process is not the same for the intel as it is for the other federal employees. thank you very much. next up is iowa reliably red? maybe it is, but could -- excuse me. but could the change in climate change the state's politics? that's next. it's tough to quit smoking cold turkey. so chantix can help you quit slow turkey. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting. chantix reduces the urge so when the day arrives,
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iowa gets a lot of attention from the presidential candidates. it also gets a lot of water. saw historic levels of flooding that made them reliant on disaster aide. experts say it is climate change and even if farmers hesitate to call it that, that it's shaken the state's physical and political landscape. joining me, the gentleman behind that reporting, the man with the
name phil mckozland. thank you for being here. what do you think the floating in iowa might change politics there? >> because it's a very visible problem. i mean, they are looking at it every day and i mean, i went in march when that flood originally hit iowa and still today you can still see the impacts of it. you still see farmer fields covered in water. you still see towns that are difficult to be accessed. so i think in those conversations that farmers are having, that small towns are having, in iowa right now, those conversations are about how do we solve this? and how do we get long-term solutions? >> is that to say farmers in iowa are now saying, oh my gosh, climate change. we got to do something about it. let's vote for a democrat who says it exists? >> no. i don't think that's quite it. >> what -- what do they attribute it to then? >> i mean, farmers talk about weather cycles and i mean, who knows weather better than farmers? you know, they'll say yes there was a lot of flooding this year.
there was a lot of flooding this year and maybe the cycle will eventually end. i don't think experts back that at all. i don't think, you know, precipitation level would back that. but they have to think that in some ways because it is kind of -- farmers, you know, kind of express themselves. they have this magical thinking. this bottom of the 9th thinking that they have to really go all in with these ideas because, you know, they're two outs, they're in the bottom of the ninth. they have to hit that grand slam. >> trump and his policies and this idea that there isn't climate change because their hope is that something will happen and they'll have an incredible grand slam winning crop. >> right. i mean, it comes down to their bottom line in some ways and whether or not they can prosper. and right now, it's a really difficult time to be a farmer and so this kind of just adds on and adds on and so, yes, they've gone all in with trump. yes, even though those trade policies really hurt. but they're just really hoping
that once this all comes through, that'll be smooth sailing from here on out. >> what about those around the farmers in iowa? are they seeing things with, i guess, slightly clearer lenses? >> yeah. i mean, you can see it small towns in iowa that are really kind of coming together in some ways. i think iowa city, for example, you know, released a statement about climate change. you talk to small-town mayors. you know, hamburg, iowa. i've been there. half that town is still decimated and basically was cut in half by flooding. you can still see the impact today. so i think, yeah, people are really beginning to see this as a long-term issue that is impacting their lives and people are quickest to act, i think, when it really impacts them directly. >> when you have 100-year floods every year, not every 100 years, that's got to start to change your calculus. >> yeah. without a doubt. i mean, i can't imagine anything else changing your mind than having water in your first floor, having to evacuate every
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>> i'm sorry. >> thanks, katy. >> in for ali velshi. it is monday october 14th. right now, that is what trump's former top russia europe advisor fiona hill is testifying about behind closed doors and her testimony set off concern within the white house as someone not viewed as a trump loyalist. a source familiar with her testimony told nbc news that she planned to tell congress that trump's personal attorney, rudy giuliani and current u.s. ambassador gordon sondland quote circumvented the administration to pursue a shadow foreign policy on ukraine. now, according to "the new york times," she quote strenuously objected. quote as an egregious abuse of the system by allies of trump who were seeking to remove a perceived obstacle.