Skip to main content

tv   Deadline White House  MSNBC  October 19, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT

3:00 pm
i'll see you back here tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. eastern for a new live edition of "politicsnation." up next, more impeachment coverage with my colleague richard louie. and good to you. i'm richard louie right here in new york city. some major developments this week in the impeachment inquiry of the president of the united states. and this hour, we're going to show you the major developments and tell you how the tide may be changing in support of impeachment. acting chief of staff mick mulvaney is coming under major scrutiny for admitting quid pro quo with the ukrainian president, which he later tried to walk back. but is it too little, too late? and there's also the president's lawyer rudy giuliani. we'll take a deeper look at his role in dealings with ukraine as congressional investigators
3:01 pm
uncover potential alreadily dam information. bill barr expands his controversial review into the origin of the russia investigation. that according to multiple current and former officials. two big questions now. what is bill barr looking for? and why now? as the impeachment inquiry closes in on the administration. also, later for you, a look ahead to what's to come this coming week in the impeachment inquiry. the key players. the testimony. and the potential fall out. well, today is day 26 of the impeachment inquiry into president donald trump but we are also in a week that marks day 1,000 of the trump presidency. and a week that could be the president's worst so far. acting chief of staff mick mulvaney had a topsy tervy press conference thursday. in that press conference, he admitted a quid pro quo in his and the president's dealings with the ukrainian president. then hours later, he walked it back. some legal minds still pondering
3:02 pm
did mulvaney open himself up to a possible subpoena for testimony? then just 16 hours ago, mulvaney added to the controversy on ukraine. he missed a key friday subpoena deadline to turn documents over to congress. energy secretary rick perry did the very same. also, ignoring a congressional subpoena for documents that were due friday. this was just after this week he surprised some when he announced he would resign amid allegations of wrongdoing in this ukraine case. and then there's more adding to the administration's proverbial camel's back. there were four closed-door congressional depositions this week. each of them hinted democrats were potential watershed moments to make their impeachment case. and each of them ignoring the trump administration's demand for many of them not to show up. but there's yet another straw added here to that camel's back. also, thursday, the white house said the president's struggling doral resort would now be the
3:03 pm
next venue for the next g7 meeting. this ignores critics' charges that he's padding his own pockets and violating the emoluments clause. perhaps the worst week ever and weeks like this are starting to have an effect potentially. 52% of the public now support impeaching the president and removing him from office. that number now rising in the g d allup poll. katy benner. former federal prosecutor and legal analyst. but first, let's go to corresponden hans nickels who is at the white house. so much happening as you've been reporting all week here, hans. what is the latest milestone doesn't seem to be a very large one according to mick mulvaney as well as the energy secretary and that's the friday deadline for documents totally missed and ignored. what's happening next? >> what we don't know is the short version because the only pattern i've been able to advise
3:04 pm
is if you are a state department official or former state nfc official, you feel empowered, em boldened, allowed, whatever verb you want to go ahead and appear before these committees. either under subpoena or just as a depgs deposition. what we don't know what current nsc officials are going to do. the house indicated they want to call tim morrison. he's the senior director for europe and russia, as well as the director ate for europe. we don't know if they are going to appear and whether or not they'll defy any sort of subpoena from the house because what we have right now is we have the vice president's obviously not cooperating. department of defense not cooperating and the department of energy not cooperating. and we do have that line from mr. sondland saying notwithstanding the state department's objection. so even sondland in testifying acknowledges that he's defying his chain of command.
3:05 pm
the question then is, richard, what recourse does the white house have? they could potentially sue these individuals. they could potentially fire them. but that might only make them martyrs. so in some ways, after the white house puts out statements, they don't have a lot of ability to restrict this testimony. richard. >> over to you, katy benner. department of justice as you know so well here might be one of the avenues that congress could go through but not necessarily in this administration as they try to get these documents. get these witnesses to show up and give testimony in closed-door environments. what can be next in this situation? >> sure. i mean, the white house -- excuse me -- the -- the investigators can pursue legal means. they can take these subpoenas to court and they can try to press their case, which i assume that they will do at some point. but i think that what's important to note is that even without the documents from the white house, even without information from rick perry, from mick mulvaney, the investigators on the hill are still building a very compelling
3:06 pm
case. not only that the president was trying to press ukraine to help him investigate his enemies but now with mick mulvaney's very, very strange press conference and actual con fregz fession to pro quo. again, starts to make some of these document requests, starts to make their decision to stonewall and stall and try to fight the inquiry almost beside the point because mulvaney has basically confessed to a crime. >> glen, putting on your prosecutor hat here, was this week an embarrassment of riches for you if you were going after this impeachment inquiry? >> yeah. there's a whole lot of conspiratorial conduct going on and mulvaney really didn't help anybody. not himself and not his fellow potential co-conspirators by saying out loud the really damaging part, which is that, of course, there was a quid pro quo. it's what we do. get over it. but, you know, if we drill down
3:07 pm
a little bit, richard, on that statement, he tried to set up a false equivalency. what he said is, listen, in our diplomatic work, we do try to influence other countries' behavior by saying, listen, we will give you aid if. but here's really the rub. the if is often something like if you stop ethnic cleansing. okay? that is actually a good foreign policy for the united states to pursue. what you can't do is say we will give you aid if you fabricate some information about the president's political opponent. that is a crime. that is wrong and that's an impeachable offense. and by mulvaney saying out loud that they were involved in that kind of quid pro quo, it's also a co-conspirator statement that could very well be used as evidence against everybody who is found to be in this
3:08 pm
conspiracy. >> you put the whole week together here, scott, and you look at the numbers that i was just mentioning in terms of the gallup poll. those who support impeachment and removal. there are many different polls out there that are showing increasing support, albeit percentage point by percentage point, moving forward and supporting the impeachment inquiry. the question is what does it mean? and you covered the gop leadership on both sides as we look at the senate, for instance, that's going to be key. if you are on the democratic side, to see if in a trial, whether they'll have enough republican senators. and by one count from hardball, they had 13 senators that should be watched. republican senators that should be watched. have you seen a bit of a crack? a little bit of light in that gop firewall the president's put up? >> i think so. i'm not prepared at this time to say that enough republican senators would be willing to vote to convict the president. but certainly, we are seeing
3:09 pm
cracks in this gop wall. both in the house and the senate. democrat strategy seems to be at this point, they think they have enough to bring articles of impeachment to the house floor and take a vote. but they -- each day that they receive depositions and testimony, more and more leaks out. they feel like they are continuing to build their case and they want to see those poll numbers tick up. we're now at 52%. they want to see how high this will go so they can add pressure on those republican senators and mitch mcconnell, you know, when it comes time when the ball is in their court. >> uh-huh. >> so that's some of the considerations adam schiff is thinking about right now when it comes to timing of when you pull that trigger and decide that now is the time to go and file those articles of impeachment and hold the vote on the house floor. >> yeah. i mean, hans, this is a week that you were watching and we were watching more republicans come to the camera and be at
3:10 pm
least somewhat critical of what has happened in the past week. i started by saying this, hans, is this by some accounts the worst week potentially for this prez densy so far? >> it's hard to get a sense of where republicans senators are from here. the white house feels is that they are keeping their support and they don't sense any softening. that's the public position. i would note the president has announced two different rallies in the coming weeks. he's heading to mississippi and he's heading to -- to kentucky. why is that important? that's after that louisiana rally. those have off-cycle gubernatorial elections. those are republican states. but if republicans perform poorly there. if they lose or if they underperform, that's an indication that the president's support isn't as strong among his base as he'd like to think. and they want to get ahead of that argument. so election eve. i think the friday before the election, they head to mississippi.
3:11 pm
election eve, they head -- they head to kentucky as well. they're going to be at rupp arena. they want to make sure governor bevins there stays in because if you have republican defeats in there, then potentially some of those republican senators, those 13 you just flashed on your screen, they might start looking in their rearview mirror and wondering what their support is like if republicans are losing in strong red states. guys. >> you know, from a justice pov here, katy, busy week, right, in terms of testimony, stuff that you could listen to, write down, and watch. which of those that we know of stood out to you the most in terms of what it meant to the impeachment inquiry for the week? >> sure. i thought gordon sondland's testimony was particularly interesting. he is an ally of the president. they are close friends. he was given this, you know, the ambassadorship to the eu in part because he was a large donor and an ally of president trump's. but you saw him distance himself without actively turning on the president. put some daylight between the two of them to say that he was actually dismayed when he was
3:12 pm
told that rudy giuliani was going to be running essentially a shadow foreign diplomacy effort with ukraine. that he really thought it should be the men and women of the state department, the career professionals who are responsible forwh what happened between the united states and ukraine. now, that is very different from the text message traffic we've seen between he and other officials last week where he very -- where he seems to say, listen, i don't think the president's done anything wrong. in his testimony, he leaves open the possibility that the decision to empower rudy giuliani was the wrong thing to do. and that any statements he may have made about whether or not the president wanted ukraine to play ball in some investigation, those all came from president trump and that he would not have firsthand knowledge. >> it was one of those weeks where the revelations just kept on coming in on the hill. and scott wong had his running shoes on, no doubt. scott, one of the things that did happen was the house vote on syria. condemning here the decision to
3:13 pm
withdrawal u.s. troops. and it was 354. 129 republicans were in that yeas column on the left. i bring that up here because as you know, the way it works, the more straws on the camel's back here, it could drive some of these republicans over to support that other big issue we've been talking about, which is the impeachment inquiry. >> and, in fact, we heard from francis rooney, a republican from florida just this week who said he is open to supporting an impeachment of the president. i believe he is the first republican to declare that. of course, earlier today, he announced he is also going to be retiring. so it seems like there's a connection between people who are retiring and leaving office. >> potentially, right? potentially. >> and then finding, you know, finding the ability and the words to speak out against the president of the united states of their own party. but i will say that that vote
3:14 pm
really got under the president's skin on syria. nancy pelosi, that same day hours later after that vote pointed out to the president in that now infamous meeting that 130 members of his own party, including members of his own leadership team, voted against his policy in syria. and that seemed to really set up -- set off the president and we saw what happened in that explosive meeting at the white house. >> the week that was. that was a busy one. hans nickels. scott wong. thank you both so much for your perspective there. katy bennett. glen kershner, stick with us. we'll talk with you a little later. up next, speaking of ambassador gordon sondland, we'll look at the implications of testimony and what he revealed to congress that has the white house a bit worried. and coming up later, preview of what will be another important week ahead on capitol hill as the impeachment inquiry chugs on. e impeachment inquiry chugs on wow!
3:15 pm
that's ensure max protein, with high protein and 1 gram sugar. it's a sit-up, banana! bend at the waist! i'm tryin'! keep it up. you'll get there. whoa-hoa-hoa! 30 grams of protein, and one gram of sugar. ensure max protein.
3:16 pm
could another come aroundot, the corner. or could it play out differently? i wanted to help protect myself. my doctor recommended eliquis. eliquis is proven to treat and help prevent another dvt or pe blood clot. almost 98% of patients on eliquis didn't experience another. and eliquis has significantly less major bleeding than the standard treatment. eliquis is fda-approved and has both. don't stop eliquis unless your doctor tells you to. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. if you had a spinal injection while on eliquis call your doctor right away if you have tingling numbness or muscle weakness. while taking eliquis, you may bruise more easily. and it may take longer than usual for bleeding to stop. seek immediate medical care for sudden signs of bleeding like unusual bruising. eliquis may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planed medical or dental procedures. what's around the corner could be your moment. ask your doctor about eliquis.
3:17 pm
3:18 pm
and welcome back. democrats got a big boost to their impeachment inquiry this week and it came from trump appointee, u.s. ambassador to the eu, gordon sondland. in a sharp break with president trump, sondland hold house investigators that the president delegated all ukraine policy to rudy giuliani. the president's personal lawyer. sondland's close-door deposition was nine and a half hours long. it detailed how he backed an effort to shake up leadership at ukraine's state energy company. >> he used the words i don't recall quite a bit during testimony, which i believed considering the timeline he should've recalled. and also, considering the very critical nature of this investigation. but there were several questions
3:19 pm
that he could not answer. >> he corroborated much of what we've already learned in the whistle-blower report. what the president has confessed to, what mick mulvaney has also confessed to. and there were no arrows going in any other direction other than there was a shakedown scheme by president trump and his lawyer rudy giuliani. >> now, this came a day after an explosive meeting between house democratic leaders and the president, which culminated in democrats walking out. it escalated further with the announcement that the president's doral florida golf resort will play host to g7 leaders in 2020. yes, emolument concerns were the reaction words. back with me, glen kershner. joining me now, carol lam. michael conway. counsel of house judiciary committee during the nixon impeachment inquiry. carole, as we look at this issue of doral and what was announced late in the week and what this might mean and we brought it up
3:20 pm
before of emoluments clause and the violations that might include. with this naming, is this not a clear violation of the emoluments clause or not? >> it seems certainly like a clear violation of the emoluments clause. but remember, again, that the supreme court has never actually ruled on the scope and the depth of the emoluments clause. but to say that because, as i think the president's team has said, because everything will be charged at cost, it's not a violation of the emoluments clause is silly because if otherwise vacant rooms are being sold to foreign governments, clearly the doral resort is benefitting from it. i think what's really striking about this whole situation is that in the past, you know, presidents have taken extraordinary care, even beyond the point they needed to, to make sure they were beyond reproach and there was no evidence or indication that they were trying to benefit from
3:21 pm
their office. and here we have a situation where frankly the president is enjoying the fact that he's the president and can -- can order things like the -- the g7 to take place at his own resort. i think it's just an extraordinary development. >> it's an extraordinary development for those in the house. those democrats especially as they look not only the impeachment inquire wri a impeachment inquiry and then add in this piece of news on doral. glen, how dou you put those two together? should this be brought up by house democrats as they look at the way the president right now is making decisions that are potentially padding his own pocket? >> you know, it really is an embarrassment of riches when it comes to presidential abuse crimes and misconduct. i'm going to go with carol's word. it's just downright silly to say the president isn't directly benefitting from having the summit held at doral. of course, he is benefitting financially. courtesy of advertisement and exposure and attracting more
3:22 pm
foot traffic. so -- but i don't think just because the house has a really strong case for impeachment on the summary of the call that we have in writing between trump and president zelensky showing i impeachable conduct. i don't think that means they should neglect other areas where the president is involved in abuses of office. i mean, you know, and then mulvaney stands up and tries to say, well, 12 properties were in the running and the other 11 properties were just not up to the standards of doral. well, you know what? can you tell us what those other 11 properties are? a little bit of transparency so the american people can feel confident in your decision-making? when then this is the same guy, mick mulvaney, who flip-flops on there was quid pro quo. there wasn't quid pro quo. i mean, it -- it -- you really can't credit anything that these folks are representing at this point. >> you know, michael, as you put
3:23 pm
on your former hat you had during the nixon impeachment process and inquiry, what is it that is happening right now with the judiciary committee? they are the committee that are going to put together the articles of impeachment. have they already warmed up the engine here as they watch the other committees led by adam schiff right now gather all of their data? what are they doing right now? >> well, i think adam schiff's taking the lead. you know, there's nothing in the constitution that requires the house judiciary committee to write the articles of impeachment. that's been the case. it was the case in nixon's impeachment resolutions. but here's what could happen. the intelligence committee is having these closed-door hearings. they have access to information, confidential information, classified information, that the rest of congress doesn't have access to. the judiciary committee members don't have access to. so i think it's going to fall on adam schiff and his committee to marshal that evidence, to collect it, and to present an
3:24 pm
article of impeachment based upon ukraine. but as glen said, i think there are other articles of impeachment. the emoluments is a gross example of that. and the connection between the two is important. the frameworks were very concerned about foreign governments having influence in our affairs. the common denominator between ukraine and emoluments is the foreign governments involvement. getting dirt on a political rival and then padding the bankroll of president trump. both those things are impeachable offenses. >> carole, as you've looked at all of the information that's come in this last week, what do you think we're missing in the discussion of what's happening there on the hill? >> i think what we really need to see is, as michael was saying, we need to -- we need to actually see what the committees are hearing behind closed doors because these aren't really criminal cases. we aren't talking about these as criminal cases. it's a political process. but if you were looking at these as criminal cases, it's -- it's
3:25 pm
always how good is the evidence? right? i mean, you can have -- >> right. >> -- you can have the worst sounding conduct in the world but if you don't have good evidence, you don't have a case. so i think the devil is in the details here. >> well, carole, some of the details are now being held off. as i was just saying, the white house is saying, no, i don't care if you subpoena us. i don't care if you request this formally. we're not going to give you information. same with the energy secretary and many other cases of this. are these key pieces of the puzzle here that if you're adam schiff, you're concerned? or you already have enough you think from your perspective, carole? >> well, again, hard to say because we're not privy at this point to all the details that they're seeing behind closed doors. but, yes, you know, from a -- from the point of view of getting documents, i think they need to start moving on that and taking the challenges to court because that process is going to take a long time. regardless what the rulings are in the lower courts, they are going to be appealed. so i think that process needs to get moving. but i think what we see here is as far as witnesses are
3:26 pm
concerned, it's approaching a sort of tipping point where people are no longer feeling like they're the only one who would be out there. >> right. >> you know, they're having company and i do think this happens in criminal cases. i think it's happening here, too, where people are sort of saying we've had enough. you know, we tried to show loyalty. it was not rewarded. and i don't mean a bad kind of loyalty. i mean a loyalty to the office and to the job. but were being punished for being loyal to our jobs and now we're going to, you know, we're going to tell folks what really happened. i think people are feeling they have more company in doing that. so i do think we're approaching a tipping point here. >> tipping point and if you are the white house, you could be concerned about the unknown testimonies that are about to come forward. and we don't know those names right now. carol lam, former prosecutor. thank you so much. glen, you got to stick around, my friend. michael conway, you too. stay with us. coming up, a break down of the major players and their roles in the impeachment inquiry into president trump. ent inquiry into president trump.
3:27 pm
do you want me to go first or do you want to go first, brea? you can go first. audible reintroduced this whole world to me. so many great stories from amazing people. makes me wanna be better. to connect with stories that i'm listening to- that's inspiration. with audible originals, there's something for almost every taste in there. everything you ever wanted to hear. our ability to empathize through these stories can be transformational. it's my own thing that i can do for me. download audible and start listening today. with your dna results from ancestry®. i was able to discover one cousin, reached out to him, visited ireland, met another 20 cousins. they took me to the cliffs of moher, the ancestral home, the family bar.
3:28 pm
it really gives you a sense of connection to... something that's bigger than yourself. greater details. richer stories. and now with health insights. get your dna kit at ancestry.com. you're smart,eat you already knew that. but it's also great for finding the perfect used car. you'll see what a fair price is and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. now you're even smarter. this is truecar.
3:29 pm
aalexa: it's a masterstroke of sorrow by olivia watson. heartache, brutality and redemption. the mist crept into the pivot hole beside her... you're late. david! what did you think of the book? it's a...masterstroke of... heartache...brutality... ...and redemption. you didn't read it, did you? i didn't...but i will. the lexus nx, modern utility for modern obstacles. lease the 2020 nx 300 for $349/month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. in the human brain, billions of nefor people with parkinson's, some neurons change their tune, causing uncontrollable tremors. now, abbott technology can target those exact neurons.
3:30 pm
restoring control and harmony, once thought to belost forever. the most personal technology is technology with the power to change your life. and welcome back. you know, with the impeachment inquiry heating up and many of the lists of the growing subpoenas that is increasing. want to take a look at what that might mean all together. nbc's dasha burns has a look at most of the major players. >> it all starts with a phone call between president trump and ukrainian president zelensky in
3:31 pm
july. to investigate his potential 2020 rival joe biden and his son hunter. turns out, the pressure campaign went beyond the phone call and the guy spear heading it was trump's personal lawyer rudy giuliani who says he won't cooperate with the impeachment inquiry. giuliani was meeting with the ukrainians behind the scenes and getting help from two soviet born businessmen, lev parnas and igor fruman. they were recently arrested for allegedly trying to influence u.s. politics with illegal campaign contributions. the zoo indictment also says they promised campaign funds to former texas representative pete sessions. the two wanted his help? ousting the ambassador to the ukraine at the time. marie yovanovitch. yovanovitch was, in fact, removed earlier this year. she recently testified on the hill. a career diplomat, she said president trump personally pressured the state department for her ouster. despite department official
3:32 pm
telling her she had done nothing wrong. and yovanovitch was vouched for by another witness this week. former russia and europe analyst fiona hill. she also reportedly told congress that her boss at the time, former national security advisor john bolton, was so disturbed by efforts to get the ukrainians to investigate trump's political opponents that he called the whole thing a drug deal. giuliani corresponded with former ukraine envoy curt volker. he has since resigned and turned over text messages to congress that seem to support the idea that trump and giuliani were pressuring ukraine. he was exchanging these texts with eu ambassador gordon sondland, whose involvement struck people as odd because ukraine is not in the eu. sondland also spoke to congress in a closed-door session. he alleged that trump directed him and other diplomats to work with giuliani on ukraine policy. >> and dasha burns, thank you so much for piecing that all together for us. and there's one other person we
3:33 pm
should mention in all this. that's acting u.s. ambassador to ukraine bill taylor. the investigation also shows he was involved in messages on this matter. he is expected to testify this upcoming week. up next, rudy's role. we'll dive into some new reporting that exposes some spiezi spi surprising things about rudy giuliani's dealings with ukraine and the legal implications. including, whether or not there is a case for obstruction of justice. r not there is a case for obstruction of justice. oh, wow. you two are going to have such a great trip. thanks to you, we will. this is why voya helps reach today's goals... ...all while helping you to and through retirement.
3:34 pm
can you help with these? we're more of the plan, invest and protect kind of help... voya. helping you to and through retirement. you get more than yourfree shipping.ir, you get everything you need for your home at a great price, the way it works best for you, i'll take that. wait honey, no. when you want it. you get a delivery experience you can always count on. you get your perfect find at a price to match, on your own schedule. you get fast and free shipping on the things that make your home feel like you. that's what you get when you've got wayfair. so shop now! panera's new warm grain full of flavor, color,. full of- woo! full of good. so you can be too. try our new warm grain bowls today. panera. food as it should be. was in an accident. when i called usaa, it was that voice asking me, "is your daughter ok?"
3:35 pm
that's where i felt relief. we're the rivera family and we plan to be with usaa for life. see how much you can save with usaa insurance. see how much you can save i am totally blind. and non-24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. talk to your doctor, and call 844-214-2424. why do wrinkles happen at the worst times? showing up here... here and even here? with new bounce rapid touch up spray, you can fight wrinkles anywhere. spray smooth and you're fresh and ready to go wherever you are. new bounce rapid touch up spray. bounce out wrinkles anywhere.
3:36 pm
are democrats building a case with rudy giuliani with donald trump's brain? well, democrats are said to be honing in on donald trump's personal lawyer and they want to look into his influence to investigate joe biden and other democrats. the depositions reveal more and more giuliani as, a, central, if not the central figure in this inquiry. and deep involvement along the way with ukraine.
3:37 pm
diplomat george kent to congressional investigators this week that giuliani attempted to secure a visa from the state department for ousted ukraine prosecutor. that's according to two people familiar with that deposition. shokin was fired in 2016. he helped giuliani form the unsubstantiated claim. he was ousted in part because then vice president joe biden that he wanted to thwart any corruption inquiries into his son hunter's work in ukraine. gordon sondland, ambassador to the european union also testified this week and he said president trump directed him to work with rudy giuliani on all ukraine-related matters. now, amid this scrutiny, rudy giuliani is still and now he continues to represent his own clients. and that may open himself up to more criticism for potentially using his relationship with the president of the united states to open doors in government. "the new york times" reports that former new york city mayor recently met with senior justice
3:38 pm
department officials to discuss a foreign bribery case for a client of his that he described as quote very, very sensitive. joining us now, one of the reporters on that very new york times piece, justice department reporter for "the new york times" katy benner back with us. msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor glen still with us. and former manhattan district attorney rebecca. katy, let's start with your reporting that just came out in the last 24 hours. and this says a lot about that question of ethics. in fact, i was just going to page two of your article where according to rudy giuliani, he says i really try very hard to be superethical. >> so that is rudy giuliani's assertion. one of the interesting things here about the story, if we just take a step back. one, it's very clear that the president does not trust anybody who he would consider a deep stater and that seems like pretty much everybody at the state department. and he put giuliani in a position where he, you know,
3:39 pm
where he has more information than a lot of the bureaucrats around him. and a lot of even the officials around him. he has more information than people at the state department and here in the article, we see he might even have more information about what's going on at the white house than the people at the justice department who are, you know, they are -- they're not speaking. the southern district of new york case against rudy giuliani. the division attorneys who are talking to giuliani about his client, they do not know that these two -- that these two acts were going on at the same time. only rudy knows these things. for somebody who doesn't work for government, he not only has a lot of power, he has a lot of information. >> a lot of information and, rebecca, you specialize in legal ethics here. as you look at what rudy giuliani is doing and we're still just learning in terms of the way the lines, the dotted lines or the, you know, full lines are connected. we're still putting it all together. >> right. i manner, the really complicated thing is what hat is he wearing? who is his client? so to the extent that he's
3:40 pm
representing donald trump in his personal capacity, then he has an ethical obligation to pursue donald trump's personal interest. the problem is he's so involved in foreign policy that that's a concern because to the extent that the u.s.'s interest diverges at all from donald trump's personal interest, he is ethically obligated to pursue donald trump's personal interest. and we as a country watching him so deeply involved in the ukraine have to be concerned that what's happening there is the facting of trump's personal interest, rather than the country's interest. >> yeah, representing the president of the united states is a little different is what you are saying. >> right. it's complicated for sure. yes. >> understatement i think of the year probably. >> right. >> glen, you know, part of what rudy giuliani and the headlines that he's been producing at great pace, one might say, is the arrest here of lev parnas and igor fruman this week.
3:41 pm
you think in this entire case of the arrest of both of them? >> so, you know, richard, it seems that the more we learn, the more we realize that rudy giuliani is so inextricably intertwined with the frumans and the parnas. but it sure looks like those two gentlemen and their other co-conspirators were involved in all sorts of criminal activity. and here's the thing. giuliani has now said i'm not going to turn over documents. i'm not complying with subpoenas. to this former career prosecutor, that screams consciousness of guilt. this whole thing at this point, richard, begins to feel like the runup to another one of president trump's personal lawyers being in hot water. do you remember how shocked we all were when we heard that the
3:42 pm
fbi had executed search warrants on michael cohen's properties? i'll tell you. the next thing we might see is search warrants being executed on some of rudy giuliani's properties. >> katy, what do you think of that? >> well, it's certainly a possibility. we know that the southern district of new york prosecutors in manhattan are looking into rudy giuliani's business dealings and they're trying to figure out whether or not he's violated, you know, lobbying rules or any other sort of counterintelligence matters. so i certainly would not rule that out as a possibility. one of the other interesting risks that rudy giuliani poses to the white house is that keeping in mind that impeachment is not a criminal investigation. it is just a decision as to whether or not the president has -- has, you know, engaged in high crimes and misdemeanors. certainly, compromising the security of the united states is something that would be deeply concerning to people deciding whether or not to impeach the president. and delegating your personal lawyer, who is not part of government, who has not taken an
3:43 pm
oath of office, to run everything from, you know, official state department business, negotiation with allies, and then possibly even to press them to do things that a career civil servant would never do. that, you start to wonder does that rise to the level of something that not only puts in jeopardy u.s. national security but isn't putting u.s. national security in jeopardy something that would be a high crime. this is not a criminal act. impeachment is political. >> uh-huh. and rebecca, we're in new ground. new territory as they say. new stuff. there -- there isn't necessarily a, a, b, c, d, e, f, g with the way he's working with this president of the united states. >> not at all. i think one thing to keep your eye on is in addition to seeming like trump's personal attorney and perhaps a u.s. envoy to the ukraine or other foreign nations, he's also representing
3:44 pm
private clients. and he seems to be representing the president for free. and so then that raises another concern, which is concern for trump, which is what is he getting in exchange for that free representation? >> right. if you're a prosecutor, that's the you migargument you might m >> i don't think there's answer to a lot of them but that's why we have very different roles that all of these people in government and particularly government attorneys are suppose to play. and it may seem kind of technical but those roles are designed so that we don't have these crazy conflicts of interest where we look at things and we're like how can we be sure that this person isn't doing something that's actually corrupt to benefit some private party or to benefit themselves? rather than to benefit the government as a whole. >> what's the quid pro quo and the involvement of giuliani in this case of quid pro quo? reporter for "the new york times." katy benner, thank you so much for sticking around.
3:45 pm
former federal prosecutor glen kershner, always a pleasure. former manhattan district attorney, rebecca. thanks to all of you. coming up, there are several big depositions this upcoming week on capitol hill. including potentially the most anticipated testimony so far. we're going to preview what to watch for and the potential fallout. ial fallout. isn't working at its be? taking metamucil every day can help. metamucil supports your daily digestive health using a special plant-based fiber called psyllium. psyllium works by forming a gel in your digestive system to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down. metamucil's gelling action also helps to lower cholesterol and slows sugar absorption to promote healthy blood sugar levels. so, start feeling lighter and more energetic by taking metamucil every day. ever since you brought me home, that day. i've been plotting to destroy you. sizing you up... calculating your every move.
3:46 pm
you think this is love? this is a billion years of tiger dna just ready to pounce. and if you have the wrong home insurance coverage, you could be coughing up the cash for this. so get allstate and be better protected from mayhem, like me-ow.
3:47 pm
so gyou're smart,eatbe better you already knew that. but it's also great for finding the perfect used car. you'll see what a fair price is and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. now you're even smarter. this is truecar. set yourself free with fleet. gentle constipation relief in minutes. little fleet. big relief. try it. feel it. feel that fleet feeling. little fleet. big relief. try it. feel it. itso chantix can help you quitd slow turkey. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting. chantix reduces the urge so when the day arrives, you'll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye. when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix,
3:48 pm
you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking, or life-threatening allergic and skin reactions. decrease alcohol use. use caution driving or operating machinery. tell your doctor if you've had mental health problems. the most common side effect is nausea. quit smoking slow turkey. talk to your doctor about chantix.
3:49 pm
and welcome back. after a whirlwind couple weeks that included four depositions, two transcribed interviews, and roughly 53 hours of testimony, all behind closed doors, what can be expected in the upcoming week? well, first off, yeah. more depositions. seven of them. it starts tuesday with possibly the most anticipated witness of the week and that is acting u.s. ambassador to ukraine bill taylor here. taylor's name became widely circulated after text messages between him, curt volker and gordon sondland were released by democrats as part of their inquiry. the text shows that taylor, the top u.s. diplomat in ukraine expressed serious concern about why the trump administration was withholding aid to ukraine. then we take you to wednesday, the 23rd.
3:50 pm
phillip reeker and office of michael duffy, those two were set to be deposed. let's header for you. we have deputy assistant secretary of defense, laura cooper whose testimony was posted from friday along with national security council director of european union affairs, alexander vindman. and then on friday for you, october 25th, foreign service officer in kiev and the top russia adviser for the national security council, timothy morrisson, both of them. 12 subpoenas issued so far, eight have not been complied to. those include secretary of state mike pompeo and president trump's personally lawyer, rudy giuliani. joining us now, msnbc contributor charlie savage. counselor to the house judiciary committee, attorney michael conway.
3:51 pm
democratic strategist and form executive director of the new york state democratic party, basil smikle, and noelle nick pour. take your pick of all those coming to the hill to be deposed. who do you think will be the one that democrats will be looking forward to hear from? >> i'd like to hear what bill taylor has to say because that is question at hand, is there a quid pro quo. if the -- if aid was winning withheld, why is that aid being withheld? the answer to that and who gave the answer and how potentially misleading that answer was, i think, seems like it's the crux of all of this. >> noelle, it was said by some this past week for the president, could have been the worst so far when it comes to investigations. we have another action-packed week on the hill. will this be a better week for him or a week that is not as good? >> richard, i actually think this has been a continual year
3:52 pm
of absolute chaos. i mean, he started off as president with a russia probe. he had that monkey on his back for many years. he got cleared of that immediately, now we're going into a mishap with the ukraine. now we're dealing with him, with the g-7, holding it at doral, all while dealing with a foreign crisis, syria, and we're going into a foreign crisis with no apparent major leadership. so we have several fires to put out, and i think that his biggest problem is entering back into a dark cloud of the ukraine and everything that he just got cleared from russia for. this is not good. it's not good for him. >> it's piling up. >> it really is. >> it is. >> charlie, bill taylor, that's going to be the big day potentially here, lots of questions. everybody wants to hear what he said because all we have right now are those text messages that were released by adam schiff.
3:53 pm
>> that's right. although i would sign a note of caution about bill taylor. he writes down in those text messages that volker shares his exchanges with sondland, i'm paraphrasing here, not to get into a adam schiff problem. essentially i can't believe we're withholding military aid for help with a political campaign. fairly late in the game. that's when sondland rise back five hours later, no we're not, and also let's stop writing about this. so it's not clear that bill taylor was in the loop on this or when he finds this out or how he finds this out. republicans may be pressing him as well, you didn't know this, right? you just read it in politico or something? that's why i'm more interested in michael duffey. he's someone that people haven't talked about too much. he is the guy at the office of management budget in the white house who over sees foreign assistance funding. when the aid to ukraine was frozen, he would have been the one that turns the spigot off and he would have been the one
3:54 pm
that had someone telling him to do that and maybe explaining why, much earlier in the game than taylor seems to become aware of this. i would like to know what duffey knows, i submitted a freedom of information act requested that we're getting ready to sue over for his emails on this topic. he may be a bigger key to this. >> michael conway, what are you looking for? >> well, i think there are three major aspects of what's going on on this weekend. it's going to be bad for the president. first of all, there's going to be cumulative testimony all around ukraine from many observers. what this does is completely undermine the talking point the white house put out that the whistle-blower's report was hearsay. the second thing is it's going to be going to throw members in the intelligence committee in these sfwoufz focus on what's really critical. the third point, which is a parallel to what we did in the nixon impeachment will be the public hearings where there'll be a laser-like focus on the key
3:55 pm
aspects of this system. we won't know by friday what those will be, but someday we will, and when we do see them, it's going to affect public opinion. >> basil, another one we were watching out for is laura cooper as well as national security council director of european affairs. national security council. >> not a lot of happy people. >> can't be. i answer that by attaching michael's point. if you remember a couple weeks back, the fox poll said that 51% of this country thought that this president was more corrupt than any other president in history. what seems to be happening is americans are starting to connects the dots. and the democrats have done a pretty good job up to now in helping that happen. and i think when you have national security advisers and all these others coming to create this testimony, this is moment where democrats can really deliver the case for the american people. >> noelle, 15 seconds. >> what a lot of republicans are
3:56 pm
looking at as we go into election year, how does this translate into votes? >> charlie, is that true? are they communicating it well there in the beltway? 15 seconds to you. >> well, these are hearings taking place behind closed doors, unlike 1974. that means it's leaks and snippets. we haven't seen the real transcripts yet. that's when i think people will really be able to dig into this. >> washington correspondent for "the new york times," calorie savage, counselor during the nixon impeachment inquiry, michael conway, basil smikle, thank you so much, as well as noelle nick pour. i'm richard lui. i'll be back tomorrow at 4:00 p.m. eastern. you can follow me on instagram, twitter, and facebook. we'll have more news after the break. a wealth of perspective. ♪ a wealth of opportunities. that's the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. straightforward advice, tailored recommendations,
3:57 pm
tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management.
3:58 pm
i felt i couldn't be at my best for my family. in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured and left those doubts behind. i faced reminders of my hep c every day. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured. even hanging with friends i worried about my hep c. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured. mavyret is the only 8-week cure for all common types of hep c. before starting mavyret your doctor will test if you've had hepatitis b which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b, a liver or kidney transplant, other liver problems, hiv-1, or other medical conditions, and all medicines you take including herbal supplements. don't take mavyret with atazanavir or rifampin, or if you've had certain liver problems. common side effects include headache and tiredness.
3:59 pm
with hep c behind me, i feel free... ...fearless... ...and there's no looking back, because i am cured. talk to your doctor about mavyret. here, hello! starts with -hi!mple... how can i help? a data plan for everyone. everyone? everyone. let's send to everyone! [ camera clicking ] wifi up there? -ahhh. sure, why not? how'd he get out?! a camera might figure it out. that was easy! glad i could help. at xfinity, we're here to make life simple. easy. awesome. so come ask, shop, discover at your xfinity store today.
4:00 pm
what's the defense? what's the defense? let's play hardball. good evening, i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. tonight marks the end of yet another consequential week for donald trump's presidency. the case for impeachment is coming into focus with the repeat depositions of four current and former policy officials. their testimony this week alleged that the president himself put his personal lawyer in control of his agenda on ukraine. the ambassadors were used to advance domestic political objectives while other career professionals were side lined

26 Views

info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on