tv MSNBC Live With Ali Velshi MSNBC November 18, 2019 12:00pm-1:00pm PST
and my apologies to ali velshi, i've taken up a bit of your show because i went a little long with cynthia. >> well worth it to discuss children and labor and the things that we should know about. i always think when cynthia's on here, we should all take a little longer to listen. so my pleasure, my friend. have yourself a good afternoon. it's monday november 18th. it's new iowa poll with cnn and media com, which shows a new front-runner in the democratic presidential race in that state. for the first time in the des moines register's iowa poll, mayor pete buttigieg now leads the pack at 25%. this is where he was in september. it's a dramatic rise. senator elizabeth warren at 16%. president joe biden and bernie sanders both at 15% making them the four candidates that are the clear front-runners in a very crowded field. we should note buttigieg's lead is well outside the margin of error, which is plus or minus 4.4 percentage points. this new poll also shows iowa's
voters are keeping an open mind. with 30% saying their mind is made up on their first-choice candidate. 62% saying they could still be persuaded. now, the story's slightly different when the contest is expanded to include all early primary and caucus states. while the same names are in the top four in the latest cbs/you gov poll, warren with 26%. sanders with 18%. and pbuttigieg at 19%. kamala harris comes in at -- i'm sorry, 9% for pete buttigieg. so what do these numbers indicate as we head into the democratic debate this wednesday in atlanta? joining me now, steve kornacki at the big board. vaughn hillyard is joining us from atlanta. steve, let's start with you and these numbers. >> first of all, iowa, of course the race all starts there. the question for buttigieg getting the lead in in des moines register poll, it's two
fold. it's number one, can he sustain the lead? he's going to get a lot of scrutiny now from his rivals. i think the media is going to take him a little more seriously now. look at some folks who have led in iowa at this point. has their lead held up? hilary clinton was the national front-runner at this point as well. 2008, barack obama led narrowly in iowa. barack obama ended up winning iowa, of course. it does not always go that way for the leader of iowa at this point. richard gephardt, was the leader in iowa. there was a race where there was a lot in flux. there was a lot of candidates. it was kind of a jumble. it really did take shape in the closing weeks, closing days of that campaign. a lot of similarities to the dynamics. so buttigieg has the lead right now but is it going to be another jumbled mess where
things get sorted out at the end? the other question, if he does succeed in winning iowa, iowa, new hampshire for that matter, they are not demographically representative of the rest of the country. certainly, of the democratic party. you look at the democratic party. these are 2016 numbers. about a quarter of the electorate nationally in the democratic primaries next year will be african-american. virtually no black voters in new hampshire and iowa on the democratic side. much bigger numbers when you get later on including south carolina and by the way, i can tell you just in the last two minutes, brand new poll out of south carolina from quinnipiac. so new, we don't have the graphic but i can tell you biden leading in south carolina in this new poll with 33%. yep. and pete buttigieg continuing to struggle there in a state with a majority black electorate. 6% he's getting in this new poll. >> all right. so people who watch you, steve, think that you are the guru of all things that are happening and making sense of these polls. but you have a remarkable sense of perspective. and in your book you've written about this. but you -- you've mentioned with this polling that since 1976, seven of nine iowa winners have
gone on to win the nomination. you've also written about how things changed in the 2000s. do -- do these numbers bear out? should we be using those kind of comparisons? and i know you've been comparing sort of since 2000. does it still carry the same weight? does the winner of iowa still, in your opinion, carry the same weight for this race? or do things like a different demographic and a different set of outcomes in south carolina affect how you think about this? >> it raises an interesting question. let me go back to that basic poll right now. the des moines register poll in iowa. one of the reasons iowa has had a pretty good track record i should say of the iowa winner going on to win the democratic nomination, it tends to be the case that the candidate who wins iowa ends up being broadly acceptable to the democratic electorate everywhere. so they're able to par lay a win in iowa to a win in new hampshire to a win in other states. that's happened more often than it hasn't happened. but buttigieg raises an interesting question here because, again, he's leading in iowa but you take a national poll now, he's likely to still
be in single digits. he's not demonstrated any ability yet to draw measurable support from african-american voters. so he's got some roadblocks there outside of iowa that raise the question if iowa goes with buttigieg, would he like so many of those other past iowa winners, be broadly acceptable to the party? or would there be a scenario where it does not translate into south carolina, it does not translate into nevada, does not translate into big states to come and there's still an opening for somebody else. that's the question with buttigieg. >> all right. let's go to vaughn hillyard in atlanta. you've been on the road. for the rest of america, iowa, which is just one state is still more than 2 1/2 months away. so you are out there talking to people in atlanta where the nation's attention's going to be there because of the msnbc washington post debate this week. but what are people talking about? >> exactly. the reason the democrats are hosting a debate here in georgia, ali, is because they think they have a shot here in
2020. because this is more than a primary process for these democrats. this is about the general election. and when you look at georgia, what type of candidate would be the best individual to represent the democratic party and win a place like georgia? well, we took a train ride from rural georgia in here to atlanta and made some stops in cities along the way. and when you look at this electorate, about 40% of the georgian electorate are minority voters here. and we stopped into one county. of course, there's a large african-american population here in this state. and a growing atlanta metropolitan area. but we stopped in an area hall county where there is about 33% of the electorate is now latinos. i want to introduce you to one individual. his name is eduardo velasquez. he's 27 years old. has two kids of his hoown. 75% of voters in the county voted for trump, however, at the same time, there is a growing diverse population in some areas around georgia.
i want to let you hear directly from eduardo. >> hall county has changed just because of the demographics, like i was saying earlier. as my age group is growing, a lot of people that are in my age range -- >> you're the son upof immigran. >> yes. >> your parents came here to work in the poultry industry. >> yes, they did. they migrated here and that's what brought them here is the poultry industry. and a lot of my counterparts are in the same position. a lot of their parents came and are -- worked in poultry plants and a lot of them went to school and now are working americans. >> have you ever seen a presidential candidate come through here? >> here in gainesville? >> yeah. >> oh, no. no, i have not. do you think it's gonna happen? >> would you urge them to? >> yes, absolutely. i mean, we have a pretty large population and it's growing. and so i think -- i think outside of the cities is where you have to reach. i feel like the atlanta metro, the democrats have a lot of them in the bag. especially, fulton county and
that area. but once you get out of there, that's where you really need to reach the people. >> and the question to amy, what amy is talking about, she grew up in a very conservative area there but to what extent are the democratic party willing to go into areas like this with growing latino and african-american populations and make a play? and is pete buttigieg the answer to win georgia in those type of voters? >> vaughn hillyard in atlanta. steve cokornacki with us right here. wednesday, nbc and the washington post are hosting the next democratic debate live from atlanta, georgia. that is this wednesday, 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. all right. these fluctuating results are seen as opportunities for some new candidates in the field. case in point, former massachusetts governor deval patrick. right now, patrick is visiting iowa for the first time since announcing his kacandidacy.
moments ago, in cedar rapids iowa with the state democratic senator. patrick has launched his already -- patrick's launch has already generated some criticism, particularly after the governor told reporters he would not reject the financial help of a super pac in order to catch up. he reiterated the point yesterday. >> if there is a super pac that supports you, you're not gonna tell 'em to stop? >> no, i'm not. i will say that i would like to see any contributions to such a pac fully disclosed. >> joining me now is victoria mccrane, politics reporter for the boston globe who was one of the first reporters to announce governor patrick's official candidacy. for people who have not been following deval patrick and why he's in this race, what's -- what's the short explanation for this? why -- why is deval patrick, who i think a year ago told people who wanted to work for him and work on his campaign, go ahead, go work for someone else, i'm
definitely not running. what changed? >> well, that's a good question. i mean, it caught a lot of even some of his closest allies by surprise last week when he went ahead and announced that he was going to run. the short answer is, is he sees an opportunity. a very narrow one. he has described it as a hail mary from two stadiums over. he is very upfront about how long of a shot this is. but he thinks that on one hand, joe biden is too -- is missing the opportunity of the hunger that's out there for -- for new ideas. to go beyond just getting rid of trump. and on the other hand, elizabeth warren and bernie sanders are alienating voters in the middle. voters who aren't in that far left base, activist space of the democratic party. >> would he have needed this controversial concept of him taking money from a super pac,
which is not controversial for some people but amongst democrats today it is. would he have been in position to need help from a super pac if he started his campaigning a year ago? >> it's unclear but certainly he needs it now. i mean, unlike mike bloomberg, the former mayor of new york city who is also playing around with the idea of jumping in. he's a billionaire and has his own resources and deval patrick is starting, you know -- his rivals have had almost a year. they're raising tens of millions of dollars every quarter. they have tens of millions of dollars in the bank. and he doesn't have anything at this point. so, yes, i think it's, you know, regardless of if he would have in the past, it's sort of moot because i don't see -- i think he says very forthrightly, there's no way he can pull this off without outside help. >> all right. victoria, thank you for joining us. victoria mccrane is a political reporter at the boston globe. democratic race is heating up as capitol hill gets ready for another huge week of impeachment hearings. eight witnesses are set to
testify publicly this week in front of the house intelligence committee, including one of the so-called three amigos. eu ambassador gordon sondland. the president has already weighed in and suggested that he might testify as part of the impeachment inquiry tweeting i like the idea and will in order to get congress focused again. strongly consider it. joining me now, democratic congressman, a member of the house intelligence committee which has been leading the public hearings. also a member of the house oversight committee. congressman, i assume you're not holding your breath for president trump to show up and testify before your committee. >> i'm -- i'm strongly not holding my breath right now. with regard to the president testifying before us. >> i'm going to ask my control room to put up that list of people who are testifying this week. democrats, a number of your democrat -- your republican counterparts have been saying, you know, the whistle-blower's nowhere to be found and it's all secondhand information. but, in fact, on this page, jennifer williams, alexander vindman, kurt volker, tim morrison, gordon sondland, laura
cooper, fiona hill, david hail. this isn't hearsay. these are either people who heard the call, had to take action because of things that happened on the call, or were involved in the planning for that call or otherwise involved in u.s. policy specifically with giving aid to ukraine. sort of gives light to the idea that no one who was involved in this is testifying. >> that's exactly right. you know, i think that at this point, we're going to be talking to a lot of people who had firsthand knowledge of exactly what the president said on the call. but also, people who talk directly to the president before and after the call about the allegations at issue, namely that military aid to the ukraine, as well as a white house meeting with ukrainian leaders, was premised on announcement of investigations into trump's domestic political rivals. >> let's talk about some reporting in "the new york times" that impeachment investigators are exploring
whether donald trump may have lied in his written answers to the mueller investigation. what do you know about this? what can you tell me? >> well, as you know, the president provided some written answers to bob mueller during the special counsel's investigation about his communications with folks like mr. stone about wikileaks. and he basically said something to the effect that he did not have communications with mr. stone about wikileaks and he wasn't aware of any similar communications between mr. stone and members of his campaign about wikileaks. well, it turns out that there might be some material out there that might contradict it. namely, material that's within the possession of the justice department related to the grand jury proceedings. and so that's why the judiciary committee wants to see that material because it could bear on whether or not president trump was telling the truth when he answered those questions to bob mueller about stone and
wikileaks. >> let's talk about gordon sondland. you're going to be talking to ambassador volker and ambassador sondland this week. both of whom have had sort of inconsistencies in their testimony. both of whom were very involved in the things that are going on. what are you trying to get at from them? because you have a whole bunch of people who built a case and sort of outlined what was happening prior to the call, during the call, and after the call and what happened with aid to ukraine. and then you had sondland who came back, fixed his testimony, fiona hill said he still wasn't fully telling the truth. turns out there are things volker said that had inconsistencies. so you got a whole bunch of people making a case and then you got these two guys who are in sort of a different position. >> sure. you know, i think volker and sondland, as you know, were two of the three amigos with rick perry, the energy secretary, being the third. and they were basically, it appears, taking direction from the president, as well as rudy giuliani with regard to ukraine policy. so it's very important to hear from volker and sondland as to
some of the conversations that are very important regarding the central allegations here. for instance, you know, sondland himself reaffirmed in his declaration or amendment to his testimony that he actually had a conversation with the ukrainians, specifically zelensky and his advisor, basically saying that, you know, military aid and white house meeting were premised on investigations. that's very important. >> i want to show you an abc news poll related to how closely people have been following. they were asked how closely have you been following the hearings in the house of representatives about whether the president should be impeached? about 21% of respondents said very closely. 37 said very closely so you're at 58% there. 24% said not so closely. and 18% said not closely at all. this is a hard topic to get your
head around if you're not following because in this conversation, you and i have just named, i don't know, five or six people. it -- it -- it's a tough one to get your head around. how do you overcome that? in your effort to show the american people what you believe the president and his cronies have done, how do you deal with the fact that some people aren't even watching and this is not the kind of thing you can just figure out the first time you see it? >> sure. and as a guy with multiple consonants in my name, i know that sometimes it's not easy to follow all these -- all the names and this particular saga. but, you know, i have to say that the -- the -- the testimony of the witnesses has been rather compelling. marie yovanovitch, as well as ambassador taylor last week, i thought provided very riveting testimony, not just compelling testimony about what happened. that being said, it's up to us to kind of connect the dots and make it clear exactly what's at issue and why it matters. and here is what i believe the american people need to know,
which is that, you know, the president is being alleged to have used his public powers to benefit himself privately. in a political fashion. and that's very serious and that goes to the heart of what the framers or founders of our constitution did not want to see a president do. namely, perform official acts to gain private benefits. in this case, a purely partisan personal benefit in the sense of investigations into the president's domestic political rivals. and they didn't want any foreign powers involved in our election. so that's really what's at stake here. >> congressman, i've known you for some time. i've never actually counted the consonants in your last name and there are nine i've just discovered so you're right. >> 29 letters in my entire name. >> that's a lot of letters. thank you, sir. of illinois. he's a member of the intelligence committee. >> thank you, ali. >> coming up next, i'll be joined by the anonymous whistle-blower behind the reporting that google secretly
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department of health and human services are now looking into whether google's data sharing agreement with one of the nation's largest healthcare systems complies with federal health privacy law. one week ago, the wall street journal reported on something called project nightingale. an initiative google reportedly began last year with ascension, a catholic affiliated organization with more than 2500 medical facilities to collect intimate health details on millions of americans without telling them or their doctors. according to the journal, the data involved include lab results, doctor diagnoses, and hospitalization records among other categories. and amounts to a complete health history, complete with patients' names and dates of birth. here's how it works. patients check into one of ascension's hospitals, doctor's offices, or senior care centers. results from their exam or lab work are stored digitally.
this has happened to tens of millions of people in 21 states. under the health insurance portability and accountability act of 1996, that is known as hipaa. the law does allow hospitals to share data with business partners without telling patients, as long as it is used quote, only to help the covered entity carry out its healthcare functions. google and ascension told the wall street journal that the project complies with that law. we only know about this because someone who works on the project spoke up. the anonymous whistle-blower wrote a piece for "the guardian" last week laying out the concerns about the project and why it was important to come forward. that whistle-blower joins us now. as you can see, we have taken measures to protect the whistle-blower's identity. thank you for being be us. >> thank you so much. >> talk to me about what the concern is. ascension says that there is nothing about this arrangement with google to collect information on patients that is
contrary to hipaa laws. you don't believe that to be true. you think, in fact, you've said you believe there are aspects of this that violate hipaa. tell me why. >> yeah. increase one, there's some tools on some of the different teams that are not hipaa compliant. and the de-identified information is being transferred over and that's -- that means the name is attached to all that information. and there's different people who have access to it that should not have access and those concerns have come up along the way and they were not addressed. >> tell me what you worry about. you've spoken to people informally about this and they say they wouldn't want basic information, like their height or weight, known to the public. we're talking about much more detailed information that went into the nightingale project. if this were to leak or if google were to use it for its own purposes, what kind of information are we talking about?
>> yeah, we're talking about social security, financial information, addresses, family names, your medical history, mris, x-rays, 30 or more different categories of detail. >> you were saying that when you and the senior team that works on the data level were looking at this information, one of the things that struck you and your co-workers is that the data was not de-identified. you had a sort of belief and understanding that if you're gathering data for an aggregate purpose to sort of see trends, that's one thing. but that is usually anone miezed or deidentified. in this case, you said that wasn't the case. >> correct. that was very concerning that all of this information, millions of pieces of data, was being transferred not de-identified. >> did you go forward to anybody? did you go forward to your employer or anybody else about this? >> yes. multiple individuals spoke up and on both sides, google and
ascension, and it kind of was brushed off and concerns were not addressed. >> i want to read a quote from the piece that you authored in the guardian. you said i'd like to hope that the result of my raising the lid on this issue will be open debate leading to concrete change, transfers of healthcare data to big tech companies need to be shared with the public and made fully transparent with monitoring by an independent watch dog. tell me what you suggest. what -- does such an independent watch dog exist? are we even in a place where we know how to do that? >> oh, i think there's got to be changes in hipaa laws themselves but i so think there's room for a third party to be able to monitor real time and sort of verify that things are being hipaa compliant. >> i want to quote from some more of your piece about google when you said when i first joined nightingale, i was excited to be at the forefront of medical innovation.
google has staked its claim to be a major player in the healthcare sector using its phenomenal artificial intelligence and machine learning tools to predict patterns of illness in ways that might someday lead to new treatments and, who knows, even cures. that seems like a very positive analysis of what can come from a partnership between google and a medical group. what's your message to google about how they can do this and have it have a positive impact on people rather than the potential negative impact of a privacy invasion or a breech? >> well, what we're talking about here is very important data and patients do not know that this is happening. they were not informed and not given consent. i believe patients should have a say in that process. and the public should be able to dialogue about this and have a say. i think transparency is key. i think the deals around the hipaa, what google -- should be disclosed. it should be public information so it can be analyzed by third parties.
so there's no later on where all of a sudden it's being sold to third parties. >> thank you for joining me. i've been speaking with the anonymous whistle-blower who came forward about google's nightingale project with ascension health. up next, anti-government demonstrators in hong kong took a violent turn over night with protestors barricade on a university campus fighting police with homemade bows and arrows, mazel tov cocktails, and catapults. secretary state mike pompeo breaks from decades old legal opinion and declares his israeli settlements in the occupied territories of the west bank are not against international law. reversing a decision that's been in place since the 1970s. we'll explain. you're watching msnbc. we'll explain. you're watching msnbc.
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the u.s. is making major changes to its position on israeli settlements in the occupied west bank and now saying that those settlements do not violate international law. a short time ago, secretary of state mike pompeo announced that the trump administration is reversing a 1978 state department legal opinion. pompeo says israeli courts should deal with legal questions surrounding the settlements. >> the government is expressing no view on the legal status of any individual settlement. the israeli legal system affords an opportunity to challenge settlement activity and assess humanitarian considerations connected to it. israeli courts have confirmed the legality of certain settlement activities and has concluded that others cannot be
legally sustained. >> the palestinians will likely be angered by the move and moments ago, we got reaction from former military chief. in a statement, he applauded the u.s. move saying quote the fate of the settlements of the residents of judea and samaria should be determined by agreements that meet security requirements and that can promote peace. end quote. he joins us now. cal, this is based on an understanding that that is a military occupation. isra israel's occupation of the west bank and gaza. gaza is a slightly different situation but when you occupy somebody's territory, you can't settle it. >> right. this goes back to the geneva convention, which we helped sort of craft all of this was based on a 1978 memo by the state department is that said settlements under international law are illegal. now, today the u.s. state department in what was a total of a 3 1/2 minute address to
reporters throwing that out. citing ronald reagan as the reason for doing so. he in 1982 said he wasn't sure that this policy was sort of up for grabs. couple things to note here. palestinians are not going to be that surprised or upset. have looked at the u.s. as a biased party, not as somebody who can sort of help drive negotiations but somebody who will literally deep six negotiations. keep in mind, this is the most critical of issues between the israelis and the pal stestinian especially in international law. the other thing to remember, benjamin, the prime minister of israel, very close to the u.s. president is in real trouble. real political trouble. he cannot form a government right now. he doesn't have the numbers. this is a boost to him. this is a message from the trump administration to him. >> and the bottom line is we're showing pictures of the settlements. the idea is these are settlements that are built in occupied palestinian territory. some people move there because they believe it is spreading israel and putting the flag in.
others move there because economically it's cheaper housing. >> and this was post-1967 war. this is palestinian land and we're now talking about half a million people living in the occupied west bank. the state department says they will leave it up to the israeli courts. part of the problem is you have illegal quote outposts where israelis decide to pick up, build a water tower, live on this land. that is now going to be sort of up for grabs. that's going to spur more illegal activity. >> cal, thank you for joining us. all right. coming up, a look at how some teachese teachers in utah are taking steps against what could be the next school shooting. you are watching msnbc. ool shoog you are watching msnbc with the freestyle libre 14 day system just scan the sensor with your reader, iphone or android and manage your diabetes. with the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you can check your glucose levels any time, without fingersticks. ask your doctor to write a prescription for the freestyle libre 14 day system.
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ask your doctor if cologuard is right for you. covered by medicare and most major insurers. as we all know, politics has stalled attempts to stop gun violence in america's schools but instead of waiting for politicians to come up with answers, some utah educators are arming themselves. the state is one of several that allow permit holders to carry guns in public schools. nbc visited teachers in the town of spanish fork, utah, where educators are going through active shooter training to learn how to stop, shoot, and even kill. gotti joins me now. this is an interesting story. this is a place where teachers and others could carry a gun to
school. they're not forbidden from doing so. you have to be a permit holder to do it i believe. so a local sheriff sort of said if they're bringing guns to school, why don't we teach 'em how to use 'em? >> yeah. so this has been going on in utah for quite some time. the sheriff said it all came to a head for him when they were on a response to an active shooter situation that turned out to be false, thankfully. but while they were clearing the school, they found a gun in a purse and they found a gun in a drawer. and at that moment, they said, look, these guns are not secure. teachers are allowed by law to carry these guns into school but they don't clearly know how to use them. so maybe we should teach them how to use them and that means teaching teachers how to shoot to kill. >> right. >> so -- >> which is different from shooting on a range. let's just be clear. >> absolutely. in fact, they had a gun range but they also had the s.w.a.t. team hot house, which is where the s.w.a.t. team does its tactical training. they took these teachers inside. that's the video you're seeing right now. they showed 'em how to shoot a gun, how to handle a gun.
but i want to show you this moment as we were following an educator around that corner that you're about to see and she is practicing what it's like to clear a room after a shooting. she's going to see a target and she's going to open fire. take a look. >> can i shoot this? >> yeah. one more. put it in the head. good. what do you think? >> that was exhilarating. kind of nerve-racking all at the same time. >> you're shaking a little bit. >> yeah. yeah because you don't know what to expect and you walk in and you see a gunman with a young child. you know, this has got to count. >> if there was a student that brought a gun to school and a student that you possibly knew, would you be able to stop them with a gun? >> that's a really loaded question and i think depending -- it would be tough. it would be heartbreaking. but just think of what -- how it
would alter life if you didn't do something. >> you can see brenda very conflicted with that question and at the end of the program, she decided that she needed more training. she's not comfortable enough to carry a gun in a school. and the sheriff said that's the purpose of this. they want to make sure that the people that are bringing guns into the school know how to use 'em. there were other educators there that said, no, absolutely. i feel like this training prepares me and i will do anything i can to defend my students. >> in some of the cases, including santa clarita and sandy hook. sandy hook was not a student from that school. parkland was. so in many cases, it may be a student the teacher knows and that has got to be a conflicting thing for a lot of teachers who sort of feel their role, that's where the parents leave their kids. they're there to protect these kids. now, to be faced with the idea that you might have to shoot one. >> absolutely. in addition to that, some parents are like, wait, we're going to put more guns in schools? what's going to prevent a student from reaching over and grabbing a teacher's gun? or possibly seeing an accidental discharge as we've seen around
the country. so, you know, it's a matter of -- >> but that's part of the training, right? to keep your gun secure. >> correct. yes. that was part of the problem. the police there and the sheriff's department is -- is very adamant about keeping the gun on the person at all times. but the laws are different all across the country. so some -- as some states, they have the law permits a gun being secured inside a -- of a biometric lock box where only one educator has the fingerprint that will unlock it. but at this point, it's kind of a mixed bag. >> thanks for your reporting on this. all right. coming up next, a look at the threat russia poses to our democracy, national security, and the constitution as we get closer to the 2020 election and the lessons we didn't learn fin 2016. you are watching msnbc. frin 2016 you are watching msnbc when did you see the sign?
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all right. now to the 2020 race for the white house is starting to take shape. one big question still lingers in the minds of voters. is next year's presidential election as vulnerable to russian meddling as it was in 2016? in a new opinion piece in "the washington post," three security experts lay out how russia plans to attack the 2020 election. they warn quote, we're still not ready and quote in the 2016 disinformation operation, russian intelligence officers and their proxies supercharged their misleading stories with real documents. e-mails stolen from the democratic national committee and hilary clinton's campaign manager. it's quite possible that these
exact techniques will be used again and why shouldn't they? we've done almost nothing to counter the threat. joining me now is msnbc terrorism analyst malcolm. his new book, the plot to betray america, examines russia's efforts to influence both america's elections and policy. malcolm, you were certainly one of the earlier ones to blow the whistle on this. but i almost think that the security experts who said we've done almost nothing mike overstating the case. in some ways, confronted with the evidence that we have had from you and others and the security and intelligence experts in this country, the idea that we've done as little as we have done almost enables anybody who wants to hack our elections. >> well, that's very and some people wonder whether that's by design, whether the white house seeks to actually have the same effort bought up to bear on them that the mueller report said that they seem to benefit and welcome to a certain extent. but let's look at it this way. the department of defense, department of homeland security
are not going to lay down on their jobs. there is a standard that has been accepted that they are taking, especially at the national security agency and other agencies like that, where they will not allow foreign intrusions into the process. but that's not what we are talking about. we are not talking about russian military intelligence coming in and hacking each individual voting machine. the problem here is that we have had the mindset of the american public hacked. over 40% of this country refuses to believe anything that the general u.s. news media says and regular journalism as it's been performed since the beginning of this country has done they just refuse to believe it because they have been using super charged intelligence and disinformation like it said in mike mcfaul's article. and they believe the conspiracy theories. they believe the rumors. they believe things that are patently false. and until you can beat that, those people are going to be almost irretrievable. >> let me put up a politico poll
that was taken in august that asked voters whether they thought russia will try to meddle in the 2020 election. 61% of all voters say so. 78% of democrats say so. and 48% of republicans say so. all categories are up from the last time that was polled in the same way in october of 2018. however, the question is interesting. russia will try to meddle in the 2020 election, right? we still hear the refrain. you have been on my show when we've heard the refrain from people who say no votes were hacked. there is no evidence that a vote was changed. but that is if you look at it simplicitily that a vote cast was not changed to a different vote. if you are causing people to stay home, if you are causing people to change their votes through disinformation, who fixes that? >> well, the only way that you can fix that is to have an information, you know, disinformation hygiene, you know, regime to a certain extent that has to be centralized. the government of finland, when
after the 2016 election, they started massively dumping public service announcement out into the information sphere to say, hey, you are vulnerable to misinformation and lies from your neighbor, russia to the east. but, you know, russia is an easy target because we know they are going to do this. they are led by a kgb officer. so they are going to be james bond evil villain. the countries that we're not watching are iran, which has a robust cyber capability, which may attack donald trump's supporters and north korea. just imagine a scenario where north korea actually does a real hack using their military intelligence unit, you know, bureau 121 which is their hacking team that attacked sony. imagine them actually hacking in the favor of the democrats, a big ugly clear hack designed to introduce chaos. that could even lead to civil unrest in the united states. >> we shouldn't evaluate this
differently whether they are democrats or republicans. malcolm is the author of "the plot to betray america." the book is out now. while we are discussing russian attacks on democracy, a new documentary takes a close look at one of the top disdents. he is a wealthy russian businessman who became one of the top figures of the anti-putin movement and the fight for human rights in russia. the film is called "citizen k." take a look. ♪ [ speaking foreign language ]
>> so to stay in a prison, why didn't you leave the country? [ speaking foreign language ] >> i don't value my life enough to exchange it for losing respect. oscar award-winning film maker alex. great to see you again. >> good to see you, ali. >> people may or may not remember this. but this was where we first got to see vladimir putin's playbook. he took a guy who was an ally who he wanted to make an example of and those images that you show in the documentary were engineered to be seen around the world. this guy who was a former ally of putin behind bars being tried
for tax fraud and various other things that were cooked up. >> that's right. that was his arrest. and in 2003 he went on national television for a prime time discussion about corruption. and to putin's face accused him of corruption and just a few months later found himself in a siberian prison cell near a uranium mine. and he was there for ten years. and then he was pardoned mostly because putin was pressured by the west, and now lives in london in exile vigorously acting to try to rutter against the putin regime. >> but the goal of putin in doing that was to send shockwaves across the ranks of the very wealthy, the oligarchs to say you need to cooperate with putin, whatever cooperate means, or you could find yourself like this. you could find yourself from being one of the richest in the country to being in a siberian
prison. >> that's right. it was definitely a message meant to be sent. the idea was you are either on my side and you do things my way or look at the alternative. because at that time he was russia's richest man, very powerful. he had an oil company. he was trying to engineer a merger with exxon mobil. and he was very much involved in politics and putin basically said to russia and the rest of the world if you cross me, you are in prison. >> did it work? >> well, seemingly it has. putin now has a regime, which is kind of like gangster capitalism. it's not to say that he is, you know, a pure dictator. but he lives by a system of favors, back and forth and a lot of very powerful business men. one of his close friends took over the oil company when the other man was sent to prison. >> what's the message that you were looking for viewers to take
away from this? >> i think the idea is look at how russia works. one is to understand the regime that may be coming after us to, you know, refer back to malcolm and the discussion you were having just a second ago. but the other one is a kind of cautionary tale. and that's what viewers have told me they have taken away from the film. if we are not careful, we are heading in the direction of putin's russia. >> can people in the shadow of this or you think about bill browder's story, is there any effective way to stand up against putin? a lot of these groups have to leave the country because there is a target right in the middle of your head if you are a putin dissident in russia. >> that is true. but there are steerings of democracy in russia. you can see it in the recent moscow elections. huge demonstrations and when russian police started cracking down and throwing people in prison, there was a pushback, and there was a relaxation.
there is pressure to be put and to the extent that russia's economy weakens and unrest grows, then i think inside russia there is a sense that the center will not hold. >> alex, good to see you as always. he is the director of many things. but in this particular instance, he is the director of "citizen k" which is in theaters november the 22nd. before we go, we want to know what you really think about the 2020 election. what are your thoughts on the presidential candidates? how do you feel about the race for the white house so far about the state of the country? go to electionconfessions.com to share your anonymous confessions with nbc news. and that wraps up the hour for me. thank you for watching. you can now watch or listen to this show on sirius xm radio on tunein on msnbc.com/now. you can also find me on social media, twitter, facebook, instagram, snapchat and linkedin. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace begins right now. ♪
hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. as the public phase of donald trump's impeachment commences its second week of open hearings, stunning new details emerge about former national security adviser john bolton's valiant and largely unsuccessful efforts to rally the cabinet to lobby donald trump directly to release military aid for ukraine. those efforts revealed in the testimony of tim morrison, the white house adviser expected to testify publicly tomorrow. morrison also testifying about a previously unknown one on one meeting between donald trump and john bolton. it was designed to sway trump to free the aid. "new york times" writes it this way. quote, the meeting which has not been previously reported came as mr. bolton sought to marshall mr. trump's cabinet secretaries and top national security advisers to convince the president that it was in the united states' best interest to unfreeze the funds to hp