tv The 11th Hour With Brian Williams MSNBC December 13, 2019 1:00am-2:00am PST
and i think the democrats have been looking for an excuse to impeach this president for a long time now. in fact, when they took over the house -- >> pardon of the interruption here. i'm going to step out here at the top of the hour, but our coverage of the impeachment proceedings continue now on msnbc. stay with us. the final friday 13th of the decade. look at3t it that way. the breaking news this hour, a surprise sudden end to the house judiciary committee marathon debate on the articles of impeachment against president donald trump. the committee wrapped up suddenly justte a short time ag
without taking the vote that would have sent the articles to the house floor. the chairman, jerry nadler of new york, choosing to speak with his gavel. >> it has been a long two days of consideration of these articles, and it is now very late at night. i want the members on both sides of the aisle tors think about wt has happened over these last two days and to search their consciouses before we cast our final votes. therefore, the committee will stand in recess until tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m., at which point i will move to divide the question so each of us may have the opportunity to cast up or down votes on each article of impeachment until the history of our judge. the committeeth is in recess. >> to stress here, it was a surprise. the verbal reaction you heard in the moment seemed genuine. while the chairman had the certain right to do what he did, he did violate rules of common courtesy between the parties on the committee. republicans then proceeded to blast nadler for the late-night surprise.
>> what chairman nadler just did and his staff and the rest of the majority who sat there qulaeyt and said nothing -- this is why they don't like us, because they know it's all about games. they know it'sit all about thes tv screens. it's all about getting at a president because they want a t prime time hit. speaker pelosi and adam schiff and the others directing this committee. i don't have ahe chairman anymo. i a guess i just need to go straight to ms. pelosi and say, what tv hit does this committee need to do, because this committee has lost all relevance. i'll see y'all tomorrow. >> that came after, by the way, congressman collins said he was at a loss for words. the debate began with its first session yesterday evening, continued through then day tod, and into the night. republicans offered t up a seri of amendments that they knew would be voted down along party lines. the day was also filled with some fierce sparring between democrats and republicans over the charges against the president. >> the entire argument for impeachment in this case is
based on a charge that is not a crime, much less a high crime, and that has never been approved by the house of representatives in a presidential impeachment before ever in history. >> there are no crimes here? that is the defense my colleagues across the aisle are putting forward? the president committed the highest crime against the constitution by abusing his office. >> the president had offered to giveff military aid if he got a investigation against his political rival, and his political rival happened to be joe biden. and he knew that that was, in fact, kickously using public office and public money for a public and private desires. >> democrats have not afforded this president basic procedure protections, such as the right to see all the evidence, the right to call witnesses, or the
right to have counsel at hearings. >> thee partisan showdown got personal quickly when trump ally matt gaetz, republican of florida, brought up hunter biden's job with the ukrainian gas company burisma and his historysm of substance abuse. >> and i don't want to make light of anybody's substance abuse issues. i know the president's working real hard to solve those throughout the country, but it's a little hard to believe that burisma hiredel hunter biden to resolve their international disputes when he could not resolve his own dispute with hertzs rental car over leaving cocaine and a crack pipe in the car. >> that was enough for one democratic committee member who pointed out gaetz's own past arrest for dui, which then brought a plea from the panel to stay focused on the business at hand. >> i would say that the pot
calling the kettle black is not something that we should do. i don't know -- [ laughter ] i don't know what members, if any, have had any problems with substance abuse, been busted in dui, i don't know. but ifdu i did, i wouldn't rais it against anyone on this committee. >> there are issues for the election, ands then there are issues t for this committee. the behavior of vice president biden's son reand, frankly, the behavior of president trump's two sons and daughter may be discussed in the election, but here we are talking about the abuse of presidential authority. >> for the record there, again, congressman johnson was referring to matt gaetz, his arrest 11 years ago in florida, indeed for a dui. even during a break in today's
hearing, republicans maintain their defense of president trump,of particularly the president's claim that his actions stemmed from concerns about corruption in ukraine and not his political rival. >> so, is it the position of the republicans that the president did notre ask for an investigatn into the bidens? >> this goes back to the whole issue of what the president has felt all along, that corruption in thell ukraine was a problem, and that's where he's been -- >> didn't talk about corruption in the call. he asked for the investigation into the bidens. >> again, it goes back -- >> biden -- >> he didn't say -- >> so it's still your content n contention, even though he didn't bring up corruption in either of these calls that corruption is actually what he was focused on andco not joe biden? >> it has been. there's nothing to change here because that's the facts. >> do you wish the president hadn't brought up joe biden? >> i think the phone call is fine as it is. >> so you heard him there. the president's concern has been corruption all along. while allti this was going on, e president was unleashing an
avalanche on twitter, well over 100 different social media posts, including this one, which seemed to hint at the basis for a future defense, more of a look over there defense. "why aren't germany, france, and other european countries helping ukraine more? they are the biggest beneficiaries. why is it always the good ole united states? t the radical left, do nothing democrats never mention this at theirs phony hearing." in all, 31 house democrats represent districts that trump won in 2016. there are now increasing signs that republicans are taking aim at them with a pro trump ad campaign. >> the verdict is in, a rigged process, a sham impeachment. no quid pro quo. butt. pelosi's witch hunt continues. one democrat congressman called it hopelessly partisan. another, like something you in third world
nations. your money wasted. your priorities ignored. >> indeed, nbc news is reporting that house democrats are now actively trying to convince vulnerable democrats to come over onto their side to oppose the impeachment articles. according to one imsource, republicans areg focusing on upwards of eight democrats who have indicated they may be undecided. earlier today, speaker pelosi was asked what she is telling members of her democratic caucus. >> i have no message to them. we are not within this legislation nor do we ever with something like this. people have to come to their own conclusions. they have seen the facts as presented at in intelligence committee. they have seen the constitution as they knowav it. they take an oath to protect and defend it, but they see the constitutional experts speak about it. they'll make their own decisions. i don't say anything to them.ma >> the white house is now looking ahead to the inevitability of a senate trial.
today, white house counsel pat cipollone met with senate majority leader mitch mcconnell on capitol hill. earlierl tonight, mcconnell spe about strategizing with the administration. >> everything i do during this i'm coordinating with white house counsel. there will be no difference between the president's position and our position, but we'll be working through this process, hopefully in a fairly short period of time. there is no chance the president's goingch to be remov from office. my hope is that there won't be a single republican who votes for eithero of these articles of impeachment. and it wouldn't surprise me if we got one or two imdemocrats. this is a reallyr weak case, a that's why i think you're going to see'r bipartisan opposition the articles over in the house. >> here for our lead-off discussion on an early friday morning, mayan wiley, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, the new school here in new york, kurt bardella, former
spokesman for the house oversight committee, also happens to be a former republican who left the party to become a democrat. he is now a contributor to "usa today" and to nbcnews.com. in washington, jonathan allen, our nbc news national political reporter, rick wilson, republican strategist, author of the forthcoming book "running against the devil." ron klain, former chief counsel to senate judiciary, former chief of staff to al gore,y, formerof chief of staff to joe biden who these days is an informal adviser to the biden o effort, and former u.s. attorney joyce vance, who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. sorry, everybody, that's all the time we have. thank you for coming. [ laughter ] just kidding. you do wonder what other broadcasts are doing since we have all the guests at this hour. we're going to make good use of them. ron klain, i'd like to begin with you with the last thing we just heard from mitch mcconnell. is there anything wrong with the white house counsel and the
majority leader in the senate, as you heard him, working hand in hand, step by step? is there anything ethically wrong with it that you can see? >> well, it's certainly not what the constitution intends. the constitution gives the congress, the house, the power to impeach the president, the senate the specific constitutional duty to try the president. and you know, you had peter baker on for. he's the expert in the clinton impeachment. i was in the clinton white house then. and what i'll tell you is that, basically, the democrats and the republicans came together to kind of come up with procedures to make the trial a reasonable and serious process. what we've seen here is a very partisan approach by the republicans, and i think what you saw in the house today in particular was an effort just to demean the process to diminish the process, to make it even more political, to make it even more partisan. and so, it is not surprising to me that mitch mcconnell's doing that, butmc it's certainly not what either the democrats or the republicans did the last time we hadd an impeachment trial. >> kurt, you have been madly
texting back and forth with folks you know inside the room where it happened tonight. what can you add to our reporting? >> well, i was texting with eric swalwell, member of the judiciary committee. asked him about this bankrupt decision to end the hearing. and here'ssi what he said. "i don't understand their complaints," the republican complaints that we d heard, especially doug collins atts th microphone. "they think we should vote in the dead of night. to see what we are doing. it's a vote on impeachment." and so, i think you hear from eric there this sentiment, they do not want to have the headline that, in the dead of night, late hours, no one watching, they took this historic vote. they want to do this during broad daylight. andg it's interesting that we' heard for days now republicans complain about the process being too quick. now they're saying it's too slow. we've seen them complain about not having enough say during these hearings, not having enough people watching and engaging. and they're saying we're going to do this in front of everybody in the daylight hours when people are paying attention.
why would republicans be against that. >> let me bebl devil's advocate. i know you're not their spokesperson, but why does it take youron text from eric swalwell to get that point out? where was a democrat at the microphones? where was justth a simple explanation from the chairman beforeom we heard the gavel and the audible gasps? that was the last we heard of the democrats tonight until tomorrow morning. >> i think they believe that ultimately the vote they're going to have tomorrow willti speak fore itself. they don't need to go before the cameras. it's interesting, republicans were up therere complaining tha this move was about getting tv cameras, this move was about trying to play to the media, yet they're the only ones actually in front of the cameras in this case. democrats weren't politicizing this. they made their decision. they announced when theis hearing's going to be, resuming tomorrow at 10:00 toa.m., and they're going torr let that vot speak for itself. they don't feel the need to come before the cameras right now and do that. >> john allen, same question. >> i've never heard anybody complain about a 14-hour hearing being recessed at 11:00 p.m.
before. and there's a bit of, you know, a situation here like the child who kills his parents, goes before thewh judge and begs for mercy because he's now an orphan. you know, there was going n to aner argument here whether they tonight, there was going to be an t argument if th had it in the morning. we've heard arguments from republicans about the process, no matter what the process has been. i think what garrett haake was reporting earlier tonight, what kurt's reporting today is absolutely right, that the democrats simply felt like it was better for them to do this into daylight rather than spend the next d year hearing about h they did it in the dead of night. all of us who have been on capitol hill before -- and that's certainly for a long time includes ron, includes kurt and garrett earlier tonight -- we know that the thing that gets talked about most as an unfair process move is any vote that happens after midnight. jerry nadler, obviously, had his eye on the clock and made sure he gaveled that before then. >> all right. joyce vance, bring us into the
law. did you hear any novel republican defense tonight? did youse hear a republican defense that they can throw in a wheelbarrow, take through the capitol toee the senate chamber and use it as part of their defense? >> so, short answer, brian, no. we didn't see anything new today. and still, the president has given the republicans virtually nothing to work with when it comes to a defense. i think they're essentially down to throwing spaghetti up on the wall and trying to make a mess that's so bad that no one can see through it. and if i couldn agree with ron little bit on this, i think shocking videotape that we have of mitch mcconnell on fox tonight, what we've now seen is the foreman of the jury fixing the outcome of the trial withof the thdefendant's lawyer. not only does it violate the separation of powers obligation in the constitution that the
senate engage in oversight of the executive branch, it will also violate the special oath of office that every senator has to take going into an impeachment trial, to try the case based on the facts. all that we've seen today fromat the republicans is an effort to disguise, to try to confuse the public, and at the end to make sure that they fix the outcome of the trial in favor of president trump. >> rick wilson, what is it about this committee that attracts, shall we say a different breed of a member of congress often? >> i mean, look, i don't want to say that doug collins is a screeching histrionic drama queen,am because that would insl screeching histrionic drama queens. but this whole thing is a bad-faith effort. it is performtive in every way. every one of these guys on this committee, they're out there waving their junk around to the maximum possible degree to distract from the fact that the president committed crimes, high and otherwise, in the course of
trying o to extort a
foreign por to manipulate a u.s. election. they know that. they get that. but they are very disciplined. they are very structured. they know exactly what they're doing. they're playing for the foxy cameras. they're playing for their siloed setth of media that the trump f base watches and listens to, and they're trying, as joy said, to basically frame this so that it goesis to senate and mitch mcconnell says my guys in the house said itte was unfair, so votes, you're out, you're done. that is going to beou an interesting legacy question. i think it really is an interesting point because mitch mcconnell as a political survivor is a very smart guy, and he may be buying his folks a problem, because this a isn't really over. we're going to learn more about ukraine. we're going to learn the defenses the republicans mounted in the house were all bs. we're going to learn that there's awe lot more here under the surface, as i like to describe it, with everything with trump, it's a fecal iceberg. you only see the really stinky part on the top. there's a lot more underneath the water still.
>> wow. bringing the imagery very early in the morning t on a friday. rick, i don't know how to thank you for that. >> i move, to strike the last word, brian. >> gentleman will be recognized when i'm ready. maya wiley -- >> you're really coming to me after that? >> no, well, this touches on a legal conversation you and i were having. >> oh. >> having nothing to a do with icebergs, junk, or histrionics. and that is, the fact-gathering process, that continues. >> yes. >> beneath the surface of the water, to go with the iceberg. >> yes. so, first of all, we have to remember that the house has a number of investigations that are unrelated to these articles of impeachment. >> right. >> that are ongoing. a that's why the earlier conversation we had about the ongoing litigation on subpoenas matter, because if we get
confirmation from the supreme court that, yes, in fact, you can't just tell a former senior aide, yeah, no, you can't go testify, you can ignore a congressional subpoena, or if you can impose what is one of these articles of impeachment, an absolute, unequivocal we won't give you a thing congress because we don't want to, that not even actually saying here's our privilege. we just don't want to. that's the kind of thing that will continue to be an issue. and as we'vee seen and as we know, adam schiff has said, we continue to investigate. is there sufficient evidence? absolutely. have we seen a congress, republican party in particular, raise not one objection, not one objection to a president that has stolen their gavel? that is crowning a king. >> ron klain, i need an honest
answer before we need
to fit in a commercial and keep this whole gang around. when democrats get together, what do you do with the kind of -- the end-of-the-day knowledge that we all know where this thing is heading and we kind of all know how this thing is going to end up -- how do you stay up and stay in the game, because this is obviously important to your party? >> look, i think they're doing the right thing, which is trying to play it straight, do their jobs,t, talk about the facts, tk about the law, and let both, ultimately the voters, this coming fall be the judge, and history be the judge, and let their consciouses be the judge. they can't -- you know, it's interesting. we have in politics, oh, this proceeding is a circus. usually you're talking about the other side. republicans in theut house trie to make the thing into a circus enough that they were willing to put on clown suits themselves to make the thing into a circus. and i think the democrats need
to defend the process. the republicans cannot defend the president. they're demeaning the process. democrats need to defend the process, go about this in theo proper s,way, and i think that' thean thing that will do them t best as this unfolds. >> allth of our guests nice enoh to be with us at 12:20 a.m. on a friday, have 20agreed to stay wh us over this break as we talk about where a this process head next thexactly, as "the 11th hour," make that closer to the 12th, continues.e ser to the 12th, continues.
you've had quite the career. yeah, i've had some pretty prestigious jobs over the years. news producer. executive transport manager. and a beverage distribution supervisor. now i'm a director at a security software firm. wow, you've been at it a long time. the thing is, i like working. what if my retirement plan is i don't want to retire? then let's not create a retirement plan. let's create a plan for what's next. i like that. get a plan that's right for you. td ameritrade.
we can imagine, trying to influence our elections with foreign interference. that takes power away from the american people. >> this president has chosen to put his personal interest ahead of the national interests. >> no president has ever, ever, ever obstructed congress in the manner that we've seen from president trump. >> that the president abused his power and is a continuing threat, not only to democracy but to our national security. >> new reporting from "the new york times" gives us a glimpse into how this president is handling this kind of pressure. maggie haberman and peter baker write -- and we quote -- as the house moves toward even what he says is an inevitable vote to impeach him for high crimes and misdemeanors, mr. trump toggles between self-pity and combativeness. he looks forward to a senate
trial that he seems sure to win and thinks that it will help him on the campaign trail when he travels the country, boasting that he has been exonerated after the latest partisan witch hunt, but he nurses resentment over the red mark about to be tattooed on his page in the history books as only the third president in american history to be impeached. joining our conversation is our longtime political analyst and veteran journalist jonathan alter. still with us tonight, kurt bardella, jonathan allen, rick wilson, ron klain, and joyce vance. the few, the proud, the brave. mr. alter, a, i haven't seen you in a long time. b, you're new to this conversation tonight. i want to get you on the record with what we have just witnessed today and where you think we're headed. >> well, this is what accountability feels like, and this is what the process is supposed to do. i actually think it's an inspiring night. we're about to hold this criminal president accountable. you know, you see those signs
"curb your dog." wurz cu we're curbing him. a leash is about to be put on him, a collar. does that mean he is going to be removed from office? no, but he is being called to account. there is a reckoning that is taking place and it is a very positive thing for this country. >> let me hold you to that and let me quote again the work of maggie and peter. are you going to be cool with it when -- you heard him doing doo it right after the mueller report came out. he got air cover from his attorney general, total exoneration, no collusion, no obstruction. are you going to be cool with him on the husting saying he has been cleared, exonerated, it's a badge of honor? >> of course he'll say that. that's what he says about everything, so that won't be a surprise. but remember, we have a great economy going on right now. he should be at about 65% in the polls. he's at about 41%. most of the country isn't buying it anymore.
they know that he doesn't tell the truth, he doesn't have credibility. when he calls it a witch hunt, his 25% solid support will say, yeah, it was a witch hunt. another 15% will be, we like the economy, we're not so sure it was a witch hunt. most people get that something bad took place here. if a democratic president had done this, you can bet the republicans would have been all over him. and by the way, if hunter biden had done something so terrible and joe biden, why didn't they investigate when they had complete control of the congress? hunter biden went on that board years ago. if this was so terrible, so in need of investigation, why didn't they do it? it was trumped up, brian, so that he could go out on the campaign, and after zelensky made this announcement, he could then have his crowds chant "lock him up" about joe biden. and then he would do just what they did to hillary clinton with those emails. he would take that all the way to the election that biden was a crook, and that was a message
that the ukrainians might have helped him drive. he can't do that anymore. >> hey, ron klain, let me posit this. i could make an argument that it's donald trump who owns the bidens' family story now, that everything we know about brizura and hunter, including what may be his monthly salary as a board member -- may not -- everything we know we've learned from the other side. let me further posit that joe biden doesn't have an answer that is serviceable, that he can return to, and this has been the source of much of the trauma the biden campaign has been suffering and will continue to until they finalize an answer. >> i think that's just completely wrong, brian. first of all, hunter biden sat down for a long interview where he answered every single question about this, so he has answered the questions. as for the vice president, he also answered questions the last two debadz about this and on the stump when he gets asked by
journalists, not so much about voters. they see what this is. they see that this is just an effort by trump to distract from his misconduct, from what he did wrong, just as jonathan was saying a second ago about the fact that if the house republicans were so concerned about this, they could have done something about it. they aren't because it's fake, it's phony, and this is just a trump effort to distract from his own conduct. as for its impact on the vice president and his campaign, i think there are two things. one, the hearings in the house intelligence committee featured trump appointees, one after the other, coming up and saying vice president biden did his job. not democrats. republican trump appointees acknowledging the vice president did his job on ukraine appropriately. i think that's a great credit to the vice president in how he handled this. and in terms of its political ramifications, you know, the vice president's doing just fine, thank you very much, in the polls and in the campaign. and so, i think democratic voters see this for what it is, a smear job by the president, an effort to distract from his own
misconduct and his own wrongdoing. >> rick wilson, same question, including the suggestion, my assertion that the story of the bidens has been stolen by one donald trump. >> i think ron is largely correct on this, that they've started to push back on it, but i do think it's incumbent upon them to keep returning the focus on what 2020 has to be, which is a referendum on trump. and i think joe biden showing some righteous anger about the way trump has gone after hunter biden has benefited him somewhat politically, and it continues to illustrate the risk factor trump seems to feel that biden presents to him. i will say, though, that you've got to constantly be on offense with trump. you can never try to defend yourself or try to get your message out or try to clarify it. you always have to go back right up into his grill. you always have to keep kicking. the minute you start attacking trump, you have to stay at it. republicans learned that lesson the hard way in 2016, where they would go on stage with one
canned trump joke and then he would do his insult comic thing for half an hour. you know, you've got to always be on him. and i think that bidens -- it's incumbent upon biden to keep turning this back on to trump and turning the attack back on to him. >> our guests are all going to stay with us. anyone i didn't get to, i will get to in the next segment. we're going to fit in another break. our conversation continues on the other side. break. our conversation continues on the other side attention! the enrollment deadline is this sunday. healthmarkets compares your current plan with thousands of options nationwide from national insurance companies.
funny thing about health insurance, you don't think about how much you need it until you need it. he's not going to be okay. with so many changes to health insurance plans, are you still sure you have the right fit? having the wrong fit can cost you thousands. new plans are available that can save you money. that's why i love healthmarkets, your insurance marketplace. they guarantee you won't find a lower price anywhere for the plans they offer. their new fitscore instantly compares thousands of plans, both on the government exchange and off, to find the one that best fits your insurance need. call or visit healthmarkets to find your fitscore today. in minutes, you can find out if your current plan is the right fit or if there's another one that can get you extra coverage or help save you money. best of all, their service is completely free. their new fitscore makes it easy to compare your plan to new ones that could lower your costs and save you money. try the new fitscore today.
you may even qualify for free health insurance with no monthly premium. don't get stuck using the government exchange either. healthmarkets can find you the right health plan and make sure you get all the subsidies you deserve without all the hassle. they even have new alternative options most don't even know about that can save you thousands. they work to help you and do it all for free. don't assume that your plan is still the right fit. the healthmarkets fitscore makes it easy to find the right plan for you. having helped enroll people in millions of policies with an a+ customer satisfaction rating, you can trust healthmarkets. for this free service, go to healthmarkets.com or call right now. your insurance marketplace healthmarkets the enrollment deadline's this sunday! call healthmarkets to see if you qualify for $0 premiums. call the number on your screen now. what are you doing back there, junior? since we're obviously lost, i'm rescheduling my xfinity customer service appointment. ah, relax. i got this.
their defense or excuse is that president trump wanted to investigate corruption. now, that's just laughable on its face. if you want to -- if president trump wanted to investigate corruption, he can start at 1600 pennsylvania avenue, look in the mirror, or he could look around the cast of criminals that have been indicted from his circle. >> a little louisiana common sense from a member of congress tonight. "the new york times" reporting the trump campaign thinks impeachment is helping with voter enthusiasm. annie carney and our friend maggie haberman report "while mr. trump himself has ruled the fact that impeachment might tarnish his legacy, his top political advisers presented the unfolding proceeding as nothing but a boost to the campaign in every metric it measures, from volunteer recruitment to small donor donations. it lit up our base," mr
mr. parscale said. "they see their vote is trying to be stolen from the 2016 election." kurt bardella, jonathan allen, rick wilson, ron klain and joyce advance. joyce, counselor, is there a rabbit on the legal side that the democrats can pull out of the hat in the well of the senate, including but not limited to witnesses' tactics that perhaps we haven't thought of, or isn't being discussed at this stage? >> you know, the real problem that the republicans have is that the time to come one that defense has already passed. so, when these allegations first surfaced, they should have come forward with the defense, whatever it was. anything that comes up this late in the game looks manufactured. and we've seen that happen along the path as trump began to try and float trial balloons, like the fact that he withheld aid because the europeans weren't
paying their fair share, which, of course, is not true, or the defense that you previewed here, this sort of notion that he withheld aid because he was concerned about corruption, which, of course, flies in the face of the fact that in 2017 and in 2018 trump gave aid, that there was no concern about what joe biden was doing in ukraine while he was there, that, in fact, many republicans in congress signed on and applauded what he was doing. and i think most importantly, that they didn't make any effort to investigate hunter biden until joe biden was on the verge of announcing his candidacy. so, the timeline works against trump, and coming up with new defenses at this stage as you say in the well of the senate will just look like exactly what it is, trying to manufacture an excuse after the fact for what was clearly an effort to subvert the election with bribery and with the effort to engage a foreign country in one of our elections. >> jonathan allen, we've
established it's late, no one watching at home can hear you. give me a straight-up prediction, how many democrats are pulled over to the other side in the house? and give me a ballpark prediction on the final senate vote. >> well, this will end up in a clip on someone's website at some point. you know, at the risk of that, look, i think you're talking about no more than midsingle digits of defections of democrats. you know, they're at a point now -- you saw the two that voted against their party in the house when this moved forward. for most of these democrats, they felt comfortable then that they would probably vote for impeachment. each of them even in difficult districts knows that they risk losing their base, core democratic voters, you know, if they are to vote against impeachment at this point, that there will be plenty of people happy to go out and vote against donald trump and then not vote
for their house member, if that house member has not voted to impeach him. as far as the senate goes, it's too early to predict how a senate trial goes. who knows what other information comes out. but i do want to address something real quick, brian, which is i do think there is an unexplored piece of this that hasn't really been talked about, which is the president's argument on this -- one of his arguments on this, one of the many arguments on this, has been that the ukraine never knew that he was withholding the money. and most of us sort of take that as ridiculous. obviously, they knew, there was testimony about that. but if, in fact, he was interested in corruption in ukraine and wanted to withhold money from ukraine to see if there were reforms there, the first thing he would have done was told ukraine. he also would have told congress that he was doing that and he would have said it publicly, and he would have said, i'm withholding this $391 million until i see the reforms that i want in ukraine because that would have been perfectly appropriate to leverage that money for reforms in ukraine if
it was broadly about corruption and not about joe biden and not about that crowdstrike russian disinformation campaign. and it is very unusual that he would make the argument that ukraine didn't know, because what it does is it shows that he wanted to keep a secret here. it's one of the many things that shows that. and it's really been unexplored because it hasn't been treated as a serious argument by a lot of people, in terms of the president having wanted to not tell ukraine. but i think it goes to the motivation there, because obviously, you could make that trade legally, and you would want them to know. >> well, thank you for getting that on the record because that point did come up more than once today. kurt, final question for you. if we're talking about ukraine, it's because of joe and the bidens. we talk about joe biden because he is the front-runner. have the bidens missed an opportunity here in any stage of this? >> i think they have missed an
opportunity in defining the relationship -- >> the biden camp. >> the biden campaign, the biden camp, the family. they've missed the opportunity of defining to the american people really the introduction of the biden family in the political context. so far, it's just been all trump's side of it and all of the republicans' side of it that we're hearing. and when you allow other people to define for you what the relationship was, what activities were happening, even if they're flat out lying about it. right now, they're only hearing one side of what happened and one interpretation of what happened, and i think that at some point very soon, once we get through the actual impeachment process, biden as a candidate's going to have to stand on the stage and explain thoroughly what actually happened with his son. does he agree with what happened? is there something he'd like to see differently unfold? and i think that he will do that. i think that we're seeing the first stage really was the indignant anger that we saw from biden. i agreed earlier with what was said that it was a good thing that biden showed that emotion. the one thing that the vice president has in his favor here versus trump is a reservoir of goodwill with the american people. people view him as authentic, as genuine, as trustworthy. this is the time where that's
going to come in handy as he puts out there what he thinks of what his son did. and all he really has to do is repeat the words that his son has said, which was, you know what, i showed some bad judgment. if he shows that, this thing moves on and trump will not be able to spend the next year relentlessly trying to paint joe biden's son as some sort of criminal. so i think that's what we're going to see. also, people in california right now are watching. for the bills and karens out there, they're paying attention right now. >> absolutely right. it's not 12:43 a.m. in california. our thanks to our wonderful slate of guests agreeing to stay up way too late here on the east coast after midnight. jonathan alter, kurt bardella, john allen, rick wilson, ron klain and joyce vance. coming up for us, fresh from his recent trip, fact-finding, remember, in ukraine? rudy giuliani is back on camera, back to talking about what he thinks about the fbi, of all things, of all people, when this special edition of our broadcast
you may have heard just a mention of this -- president trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, has recently returned from a fact-finding trip to ukraine. he was conducting interviews, you see, as part of his investigation into -- wait for it -- the bidens. during an interview earlier today, giuliani had this to say about the fbi. >> the fbi and law enforcement has become intimidated by the press. they're afraid of the press. so, unless i'm a courageous prosecutor, i know that if i investigate rudy giuliani, "the new york times" is going to love it. >> back with us, maya wiley, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. what do you make of that? >> i make of that a man who knows the fbi and knows that
worrying about the press is not something the fbi does when it's conducting an investigation. >> why would he say a thing like that? >> because he has been the person who has been a recidiv t recidivist -- i know that's a word we used -- >> it's a big word to be throwing around that many syllables. >> but let's face it, if there is literally an investigation, in this case in the context of impeachment of the president for the very kind of conduct that rudy giuliani has now gone back to doing, and rudy giuliani himself, himself is apparently under investigation for his connections and work in ukraine in his own right. so, again, it's almost like he's ripping a page out of donald trump's playbook, which is distract, distract, distract. >> as our friend, ron pope heel made face, but wait, there's more. do we have the headline of the
article on lev? the "wall street journal" has been reporting that rudy friend lev parnas, the southern district of new york has gone back to court and said this guy should have his bail revoked. he hid a million bucks from a russian account that went to his wife. reminds me of the old jim croce song, people gotta learn this lesson -- you don't tug on superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind. you don't lie to the feds. you don't, if you can help it, withhold information from the feds, because this guy could be in even more trouble now. >> oh, absolutely! not to mention that this is a man who said, i can't afford 200 -- i can barely pay the $200,000 i have to put down for bail. then he has $1 million? i mean, that's -- that is -- >> how people view this. >> that's how people view it. and remember that prosecutors make decisions about whether or not they want to deal with you or whether they're just going to throw the book at you. and these are the kinds of
behaviors that make them say, yeah, deal, mm, maybe we're just going to pick up our big book, which is getting heavier and heavier, and throw it at you. >> boy, that's chilling. it's real-world stuff. >> that's just real-world stuff, because you don't make deals with people you can't trust to tell you the truth. >> maya wiley, thank you. >> thank you. >> always a pleasure. coming up for us, thursday was a history-making day in the united kingdom. what happens there next is a big question. we'll go there live right after this. estion we'll go there live right after this
these folks, they don't have time to go to the post office they have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps.com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the amazing services of the post office only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/tv and never go to the post office again!
to get brexit done! >> nice touch, having unzipping elmo there behind him. british prime minister boris johnson celebrating his party's apparent victory at the polls a short time ago. exit polls showing johnson remaining at 10 downing street, picking up a much larger majority inside parliament. a look at the morning papers from the uk. the left-leaning "daily mirror" declares "nightmare before christmas," "guardian" with just the news "exit polls predicts huge majority for johnson." on the right, the "daily mail" "rejoice! boris set for thumping win." bbc reporting the tories are preparing a ferocious acceleration in efforts to get brexit done, to crash england out of the eu. jeremy corbyn also spoke after the resounding win for johnson, announcing, "i will not lead the party in any future general election." luckily for him, the party
probably would have arrived at that same conclusion. up early for us in london with the very latest is our own cal perry. and cal, i've got to say, it appears from here like most of the charges of malpractice are going right to left, right to jeremy corbyn. this is from larry sabato at the university of virginia, mind you. "just one question for labor -- how could you have been stupid enough to think that jeremy corbyn could ever win a general election?" and that's the question that pays tonight, cal. >> reporter: yeah, and they're saying it is the worst defeat since 1935, and a lot has happened in europe since 1935, and they're blaming, as you said, jeremy corbyn. he is an incredibly unpopular leader. on the scale of popularity, he was at a minus 44, and that is what people are talking about. we're here in itv news
headquarters, this is election hk. and at 5:45 a.m., it looks as you would expect, weary and dreary staff. they're probably going to break this around me as we go. the polls were wrong, brian. not a surprise there, i suppose, if you look at recent election history. boris johnson's party was supposed to win somewhere between 300 and 330 seats. it's looking right now like around 360. as you said, brexit is basically a done deal now. january 31st, the uk will crash out. the question now is what are the more reverberating effects? scotland, the national party, about 45 seats. there will be likely a referendum on scottish independence in the coming year. so, the story here is partly what will happen to the united kingdom. you mentioned jeremy corbyn. look at what a landslide earthquake election looks like. steve kornacki will be very jealous. we're looking at these swings here. it looks like what you would see in the u.s., for example, in 2010, when we had those house seats swing away from democrats. that's what happened.
and the geography is very similar to what we see in the u.s. we're talking about london was a place where labor did well, but in the countryside, we saw the conservatives make major gains. this is one of those elections where you redraw the map in the united kingdom. and again, i can't put a fine enough point on this. the maps in your children's bedrooms are likely to be to be wrong by next year if scotland splits away. that's going to be the story in the morning papers, brian. one other thing worth mentioning, the press here in this country, the attitude, the environment of this election was incredibly ugly. and boris johnson tapped into a simple message -- get brexit done. you heard him finishing his speech tonight, get brexit done. a lot of people said it was dull. a lot of people said it was a simple message. it worked. >> boy, of course, saying that and doing that, as you point out, cal, perhaps two very different things. a lot of questions about scotland, even some fears that the troubles could start back up in the north. cal perry in the itv newsroom
tonight where they are just coming off, again, an endless election night. cal, thank you for your reporting. that's going to do it for our extended version of our broadcast of "the 11th hour" from what started as thursday and is now friday out here in the east. for whatever day it is where you're watching, thank you for being here with us. goodnight from our nbc news headquarters in new york.
new developments overnight in the impeachment probe and a surprise move that seemed to infuriate republicans. house judiciary committee chairman jerry nadler abruptly delayed a vote on articles of impeachment late last night. now lawmakers are scheduled to reconvene at 10:00 a.m. eastern. plus, british prime minister boris johnson leads his party to a historic general election win, paving the way for britain's exit from the european union early next year. and as we head closer to primary season, senator and 2020 candidate elizabeth warren is ramping up the criticism of her fellow democratic presidential candidates. ♪