tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC September 21, 2009 9:00pm-10:00pm EDT
and among democrats in mike ross' district, democrats were in favor of the public option by a walloping 74%. that's the hardball context in which the specifics of our new health care system women ill bed worked out among democrats. republicans are not a big part of the legislative process. even orrin hatch today offered an amendment to the baucus health care bill singling out and i quote, any state with a name that begins with the letter u to get special federal health care assistance. when your policy suggests could double as skits about the alphabet on "sesame street" it may be fair to say you're not doing heavy lifting in developing legislation. even as republicans become more and more irrelevant to the content of any health reform bill, they are launching new attacks on the whole idea of reform itself.
and they're scary. they said it was a secret plot to kill old people and take away veterans health care and a secret plot to deny health care specifically to republicans and even a secret plot to deny care to disabled children, that one was particularly classy. just when you thought they might be running out of groups of americans to scare about what secret plot lurks within health care reform, they found a new one. a new survey says health care reform is a plot to deprive you of health care on the basis of your race. and you know, the president is black. we don't want to give you any ideas but guess which race will be discriminated against? under the heading rationing and
restricting health care on this fund-raising fake survey from the republican party appears this question. are you concerned about health care rationing could lead to a quota system which would determine who would get treatments on the basis of race or age? we're not saying that's going to happen but hypothetically would that sort of thing concern you? they have been among the worst offenders in terms of scaring americans by making stuff up about health reform. the republican party is not exactly alone here. consider this letter that's been sent out from the health insurance company humaniaa to i customers. millions of seniors and disabled individuals could lose many important benefits and services. that's not proposed in any health care bills in consideration, that's fear mongering that may also be illegal. humana is being investigated
because the government pays humana to provide medicare coverage to medicare patients and by virtue of that humana agreed to abide by marketing rules. marketing rules that are in place to medicare patients won't be confused about who is sending them information about their benefits. confused between their insurance company and the government. now in this case humana says they don't think they broke the rules but are cooperating with the investigation nonetheless. an advocacy group called consumer watchdog on friday released underwriting guidelines from the industry that may clear just how sweet the deal has been for companies in the current system and how bad that system has been for those of us trying to use it to get our health care needs met. guidelines from 2004 said you could be disqualified from health coverage in certain circumstances if you had varicose veins. guidelines in 2006 said you could be denied coverage or charged higher premiums if you ever had treatment for toenail
fungus or allergies. you could be rejected from coverage if you were pregnant or if you were an expectant father. a group called pacific care in 2003 not only said that pregnancy or being an expectant father were grounds for automatic rejection of health coverage, they refused coverage to police officers and firefighters as a class. what's actually scary about health care is what passes for a health system in this country now. why again is anyone in congress fighting to preserve the industry that brought us the genius idea that police officers don't deserve health insurance in america? why is it so important to preserve that system? joining us now is wendell potter. he was head of public relations
for cigna. thank you for joining us tonight. >> i was at humana for a few years, too. >> that makes it more relevant to have you here. thank you. i have to say that i was sort of shaken up by these industry documents made public this weekend. internal rules that say you can't cover police officers. you can't cover firefighters. don't cover anyone who is going to have a baby. this pre-existing condition system was created by the industry. what was the purpose of it and how has it worked out. >> it worked out great for them. they avoided paying billions of dollars in claims because of the system it created. they could avoid anyone that might need health insurance. they had such a sweet deal over many years by avoiding or not having to accept anyone who applied for coverage who might have had an illness in the past. in fact, there are some professions in the industry that
in the past they have written do not quote. it's something -- in fact, health care workers are among those that health insurance companies would rather not cover if they had a choice. >> what about when someone already has coverage? do pre-existing condition clauses factor after someone has been granted coverage? >> absolutely. this is in the individual market where someone doesn't have access to health insurance through the workplace. you have to fill out an application. you are expected to try to remember everything that you can throughout your medical history throughout your life. if you miss something or if you forget something, then if you do get sick, if you do have medical claims, the insurance company will go back and look at application and they will have better memory -- they'll have better records than you will have memory and very often they will cancel your coverage even though you paid premiums year in and year out every month on time even if you had acne or
something like that. >> when we look at the prospects for reform right now, the idea of getting rid of pre-existing conditions is something that pretty much everyone seems to be on board with even the health insurance industry. they're willing to let the pre-existing condition thing go. if you put yourself in the mindset of yourself when you worked in the industry or executives there now, surveying the reform prospects right now, how are they feeling about what may happening to their industry? >> they would be willing to give up pre-existing conditions as a condition to deny coverage because they see this as a potential bonanza for them. they have gotten the president to go along or change his course and agree that everyone should be forced to get coverage and that would mean that if there's no public option, they would have billions of dollars in revenue accounting from new policy holders and for those who can't afford to pay overpriced premiums, taxpayer dollars into these companies and it would
come out in the other end in terms profits for shareholders. they would give up pre-existing conditions. they said this in 1993. they would go along with it because they can't avoid it this type and secondly in exchange for getting all of the new customers, you bet they'll go along with it. >> i think of my own health insurance coverage and my experience with health insurance coverage, i've been through a long period of life where i've been uninsured. i also know a lot of people who have health insurance right now but still feel that we are underinsured. still feel that we're being given unaffordable costs even after paying unaffordable premiums. do you feel like the sort of new regulation for industries including getting rid of pre-existing conditions and other things being proposed would make our insurance less bad if we'll all be required to have it. >> i think it will make it even more bad.
pre-existing conditions could be eliminated. they should be made illegal a long time ago. a lot of the legislation would still enable and sanction or enable companies to continue to shift more and more of the cost of health care to us. the so-called premiums might be more affordable comparatively but we would pay more out of our own pocket for coverage. the goal of making sure that no one has to file for bankruptcy because of medical bills is a pipe dream with the kind of legislation we see right now. >> wendell potter, thank you very much for coming on the show tonight, sir. >> thank you, rachel. >> last weekend in washington the conservative place to be was the oddly ill focused tea party held on the occasion of the 9/11 anniversary. now to be remembered forever in journalism school textbooks for
this scene of an associate producer at fox news rallying the crowd so the network could show images of a crowd that looked rallied. this weekend in washington the conservative place to be was the value voters summit where the crowd was told pornography makes you gay. i would never make something like that up. we have an eyewitness report to this guy saying that next.
his presidential itinerary. >> you ask who is responsible. they pull out their blackberries. >> this was his first visit as president to the late show. could someone toss me an eleven sixteenths wrench over here? here you go. eleven sixteenths... (announcer) from designing some of the world's cleanest and most fuel-efficient jet engines... to building more wind turbines
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let our strength and stability be the basis for yours. pnc. leading the way. progressive. call or click today. >> behold a missouri congressman, candidate for u.s. senate until recently the number three republican in the house telling what seems to be a really long meandering gut wrenching racist joke. >> supposedly it's the turn of the 19th century, the end of the
19th century, beginning of the 20th century, there was a group of british occupiers in a lush, very quiet, very peaceful, very uneventful part of india. this group of british soldiers who were occupying that part of india decided they would carve a golf course out of the jungle of india. and there was really not much else to do so for over a year this was the biggest event going on getting this golf course created. they got the golf course down. almost from the day the first ball was hit on this golf course, something happened they didn't anticipate. monkeys would come running out of the jungle and they would grab the golf balls. if it was in the fairway, they might throw it in the rough. they might throw it back at you. and i can go into great and long detail about how many things they did to try to eliminate the
monkey problem but they never got it done. so finally for this golf course and this golf course only, they passed a rule and the rule was you have to play the ball where the monkey throws it. and that is the rule in washington all the time. >> who is the monkey in washington in this story? republican congressman roy blunt who wants to be the next republican senator from the great state of missouri. mr. blunt performed his washington monkey at this weekend's value voter summit in washington which in addition to hosting much of the republican congressional leadership and candidates for president in 2012, it had strange stuff going on. you might recall on friday's show we warned you there would be a breakout session at the summit to define what they called a new masculinism like
feminism but for guys. here's how that went. >> it's been a few years but not that many since i was closely associated with pre-adolescent boys, 10 to 12 years of age, but it is my observation that boys at that age have less tolerance for homosexuality than just about any other class of people. they speak badly about homosexuals. they don't want to be that way. they don't want to fall into it. that's a good instinct. studies conducted by the national institutes of health to prove it's genetic, studies prove it's not. it's inflicted on people. >> inflicted on people. speaker there is chief of staff to united states senator named mike schwartz chief of staff to
the senator from oklahoma. he co-authored a book accusing gay people with aids to advance an agenda. this weekend he moved quickly from the gay being inflicted on people to some remarkable advice about pornography and preteens. >> all pornography is homosexual pornography. because all pornography turns your sexual drive ipwards. now think about that. and if you, if you tell an 11-year-old boy about that, do you think he'll want to get a copy of "playboy"? i'm pretty sure he'll lose interest. it's the last thing he wants. >> chief of staff to united states senator. how does a person have time both to be chief of staff to a united states senator and to develop complicated theories about how porn makes you gay and that's a
good thing to tell an 11 year old? under the same roof as that breakout session at the values voter summit, the most absurd award ceremony award was earned by the values voter summit organizers. bill o'reilly accepted the first ever media courage award. the ceremony to award mr. o'reilly his media courage award was closed to the media. courage. joining us now is the man who snapped that photo of that sign a reporter for "washington independent." thanks very much for coming back on the show. >> thanks for having me again. >> was the media award ceremony being closed to the press. did they followthrough on keeping reporters out? >> it was a surprise to everyone. reporters were ushered out at 5:00. we were supposed to be allowed back in at 7:00. when we showed up very bashful
staff informed us that mr. o'reilly just instituted the rule. someone inside the event with a camera was kicked out loudly seconds after i took that photo. it was surprising but the content of the speech was about why the media doesn't cover conservatives. up until now getting kicked out wasn't a reason the media didn't cover conservatives but o'reilly doing his part. >> after the breakout session, what was the crowds reaction to mr. schwartz's comment that porn will make you gay and we should tell preteens this? >> a door was open and they just discovered an answer to questions that had for years and years. it's not audible on that tape but there's a gasp and after he explains the truth in the story, some people started asking about where he heard this and what the
guy's name was and they wanted to know more about this theory. this cracked open a lot of theories that value voters as they define themselves at this conference had about why america keeps getting further from values they like and this was a very nice silver bullet explanation. you know that american el evangelicals talk about this. i heard people nudging each other to hear more about this. >> in addition to talking to people like tom coburn and his staff, senator coburn is on the far right end of the republican party. i was interested to see people like tim pawlenty turning up at this event. he's talked about as a moderate in beltway common wisdom. can you tell us what he was like before this values voter summit? >> the reason that governor
pawlenty is seen as a credible candidate to take down barack obama is he's a governor of a blue state that governorred with a democratic legislature and vetoed things he didn't like but close to the middle. before this audience he pushed every button. he compared what president obama was doing on foreign policy to what chamberlain did to appease hitler. he called the president out for debt he was imposing on our children and people angry about president speaking to schoolchildren, you should apologize for the debt you're leveling on them. he quoted from the chronicles that ronald reagan used in his inaugural and there's a moment where a big portion of the audience knew that passage and read it along with him. he sounded like a preacher. it was one -- something that elevated him to the number three position in this straw poll but two just something we haven't seen from this guy before.
>> certainly not part of the national common wisdom but a side of himself he cultivates with people. thanks for joining us tonight. >> thank you so much, rachel. today's big intrigue in washington is who leaked the new war plan to bob woodward at "the washington post" and was that leak designed to push president obama into doing something in the war effort that he wouldn't otherwise do? the reporter who today said that what the bush administration did in iraq is being treated as a template for error by this white house joins us next. money when you make money," tdd# 1-800-345-2550 he neglected to mention tdd# 1-800-345-2550 he also makes money when i lose money, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 withdraw money or do nothing with my money. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 tdd# 1-800-345-2550
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>> until i'm satisfied that we've got the right strategy, i'm not going to be sending some young man or woman over there beyond what we already have. >> beyond what we already have. so the 68,000 americans who are there now have to stay even if we don't have the right strategy? last night "the washington post" published to its website something that had been talked about for a long time in d.c. but so far had been kept secret. the top military commander's review of what we're doing in afghanistan and what we ought to be doing. conventional wisdom said the report was leaked to push the president into doing something sooner than he might have otherwise done it. the report by general stanley mcchrystal raises the possibility over and over and over again of a u.s. military
failure in afghanistan. "failure to gain the initiative and reverse insurgent momentum in the near term risks an outcome where defeating the insurgency is no longer possible." "continued underresourcing will likely cause failure." "any of these risks in turn are likely to result in mission failure." over and over and over again this leaked report raises the spector of failure of defeat in afghanistan. even as it defines what's going on in afghanistan right now as "not a war in the conventional sense." it's not a war but a thing that's not a war that we can lose. even though president obama inherited this whatever you choose to call it from george w. bush, no president wants to be the president who loses the not
war in afghanistan. in its ninth year. of course no one quite understands what it would be to win this not war either but fear of losing is perhaps politically stronger than the dread of doing something indefinitely that just can't be won. general mcchrystal has not requested additional troops yet. it's expected that he will. his report indicates that a strategic change is more important than more resources. he defined the goal of resources as creating an afghanistan in which the insurgency never threatens the viability of the state. he says u.s. forces must prioritize responsive and accountable governance. the current government is described as incompetent officials, power brokers and criminality. also high level abuse of power and low level corruption. while the goal of creating a afghan government worthy of its people is admirable and well
intentioned, we're all left to wonder as the number of americans in afghanistan pursuing that lofty goal doubled in the course of the last year, we're left to wonder how exactly how america can get the afghans that awesome sounding government and how long it's expected to take and how much it will cost? joining us now senior correspondent for "the washington post" reporting today on how general mcchrystal's report is being received at the white house and also author of the book "imperial life in the emerald city inside iraq's green zone." thank you for coming on the show. you say that the bush administration's iraq policy is the obama administration's template for error. what did you mean by that? >> what i meant and what my colleague who wrote it with me meant is that what the obama administration doesn't want to do is simply give cart blanch to
military commanders to define what they need and how the war should be fought. there's a belief in the white house that what happened in the latter part of the bush presidency in iraq is that general petraeus was simply allowed to define the strategy as he saw fit and bush repeatedly said i'll listen to what my commanders tell me they want and give it to them. the white house -- this white house believes that the appropriate way forward in afghanistan is to consider a whole number of inputs and they view general mcchrystal's assessment as one input in figuring out how to move forward in afghanistan. >> i have one big disconnect reading the mcchrystal report today. i was struck by how frequently it mentioned the possibility of us failing in afghanistan and there's political ump behind that but also how it says the
government is corrupt and abusive and all these other things. if what winning means in afghanistan means the afghan government has credibility that we fostered and can stand up on its own two feet, aren't we undoing that by defining them as the problem. shouldn't we promote the credibility of the afghan government? >> it would be fine to promote credibility if there was a credible government. that was the assumption going in when obama administration took over and they sat on a policy back in march to move forward with an integrated counterinsurgency plan but what happened along the way were presidential elections last month in afghanistan that was just riddled with fraud. a together fee atal fiasco. ballot box stuffing by incumbent president hamid karzai.
he'll stay in office under a huge cloud of il legitimacy. how do you promote good governance helping to connect the afghan people to the government if at the top you have a leader who has won election through fraudulent means? >> briefly, is leaving one of the options that's being considered right now? obviously there's a lobby in washington right now that not only wants more troops but wants a lot more troops but is one of the options on the table not only just adding more troops but actually taking the ones that are there and bringing them home? >> that's one option. it's not a full just pack up bags and leave but a drastically scaled down mission that would involve perhaps special operations forces and aerial drones to go after al qaeda
operatives that may seek to come back to afghanistan and the people that support that view say that's the truest approach in keeping with the goal outlined by president obama which is fundamentally to keep al qaeda from returning to their safe havens in afghanistan. >> senior correspondent for "the washington post," thank you for your reporting and for joining us tonight. >> as always. pleasure. >> if you think there's something notable about the saudi national security adviser owning a customized dallas cowboys silver and blue private wide bodied jet, you're not alone. it's not just people that root against the cowboys think so. [ moos ] [ man announcing ] if you think about it,
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enhanced interrogation techniques that people have considered torture for centuries like water boarding and stress positions have long been considered illegal. they've long been considered to be immoral and now they've been proving in terms of biology to be counterproductive. in a new report in the scientific journal, scientists looked at the ways that bush era interrogators tortured people and looked at the effects on the brain. not only doesn't courture coax usable intelligence out of people, it physically inhibits memory and distorts it and mixes false memories with actual possibly useful information. torture is "biologically counterproductive to eliciting quality information." the mixing of memory with false memory is known as
confabulation. also, the dallas cowboys debuted their new stadium this weekend with a big texas style last second loss to the new york giants. the cowboys amenities include the owner's club boxes where for $500,000 a year, you get access to a bar, a private elevator, guards and a nice view of the game. but the team's owner has one of these boxes and so does the saudi national security adviser. and a really, really, really big dallas cowboys fans. like so many sports fans, the prince likes to wear his team colors. i have a number of new england
patriot t-shirts but the prince has a airplane that's the focus of a british corruption investigation of a massive arms deal between the brits and the saudis. this exact plane was allegedly a bribe to the prince from a defense contractor. now they are denying the bribery charges. i suggest we repaint the plane in patriots colors while we're waiting.
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chevy malibu going about 40 miles an hour. if there's a fundamental dividing line and one way to tell conservatives from liberals, it's the issue of regulation. liberals think the market doesn't produce the best results for the country or us as individuals and families so sometimes government needs to step in and set ground rules and limits. conservatives classically believe the market should be left alone and companies should do what they want. the free market produces the best outcome and government regulation interferes with that. >> government is not the solution to our problem. government is the problem. >> that's one way to#9%h- loo. here's another. this is what 50 years of safety regulations forced on fridindus looks like. which car would you like to be in? the '09 malibu or would you rather be in this one? it does have nicer upholestry.
protect consumers and a new agency to enforce the rules. after that was his weekly address in which he said again what he plans to do. remember as you hear this, try to imagine who would be part of this. there will be a quiz. >> i called on congress to put in place a series of tough, common sense rules of the road that will protect consumers from abuse, let markets function fairly and freely and help prevent a crisis like this from ever happening again. central to these reforms is a new consumer protection agency. we need clear rules clearly enforced and that's what this agency will do. >> the proposal here is akin to an fda for financial services. the fda makes sure that nobody bottles antifreeze and sells it as baby formula. baby formula is regulated so as to protect babies and parents. in that spirit, banks and lenders should be prevented from bottling financial antifreeze and calling it a mortgage.
now for the quiz, who is the active opposition to the president's plan to stop banks from gouging consumers? if you said wall street, you definitely do not fail but you're not quite there. if you said republicans, you have to go back and count seats in the house and senate. it's not really them. the answer is actually democrats. specifically blue dog democrats. the same crowd that's holding up health care reform right now. freshman democratic congressman from idaho, a member of the blue dog coalition, says he'll proposal an alternative to regulate wall street and his unfinished bill would eliminate the president's proposed consumer financial protection agency. congressman prefers an advisory committee of existing consumer agencies that will house the power of suggestion. not power of enforcement. you know who thinks that stinks? congressman barney frank on whose committee he sits. mr. frank he said about
opposing the consumer protection agency. number one, ouch, getting smacked down by barney frank hurts particularly as a freshman congressman. number two with guys like this who needs republicans, right? joining us now is a man who was just named to be the head of the nation's largest federation of unions the afl-cio. thanks for joining us here tonight. congratulations. >> thank you. thanks for having me on. appreciate it very much. >> in washington right now it's not just republicans versus democrats but a battle of liberals versus conservatives within the democratic party on important policy issues. how does labor factor into that today? >> we're going to try to keep them honest and make them live up to their promises about health care, try to make them reregulate the financial economy and give us a consumer protection agency that isn't a hobby as it is right now to four other agencies but actually protects consumers.
i talked to a woman in atlanta. she was making $1162 a month on a fixed salary and they gave her a $900 a month mortgage. that type of predatory lending should have been picked up by any of those agencies. it wasn't. what we're going to do is make sure they live by that. we'll educate our members, mobilize our members, and i think our members will hold them accountable on election day. >> when labor is active on big, contentious policy issues like health care, like this regulation is going to be, you get denounced from the right as bullies. you get denounced, the word "goon" arises. what do you think about the way that union members have been caricatured by the right? >> it's totally unfair. they can't answer us on the issue itself so they try to demonize us. we don't care what they say. we know what we're doing is right and standing up for health care with a public option that will break the stranglehold of insurance companies is the right thing to do.
they can call us whatever they want. it's not going to deter us. maybe it has in the past but it won't now. this re-regulation of the economy, we know wall street hasn't learned its lesson and unless we re-regulate them the same thing will occur again and again and so we'll push for that regulation regardless of what they say. >> think about right now the power of labor, the power of really the middle class, the hopes for the future of the middle class in the united states. think about the proportion of the work forcexdar&dóz
passed before the end of the year. it will allow workers to form a union and get a better share. here's the thing. it's necessary if we're going to build a sound economy over the last 30 years, because workers' wages have stagnated we've had to borrow our way into the middle class. that doesn't work. we'll bring the union to people. they'll be able to bargain their way into the middle class, get more money, spend more money rather than borrowing it and create an economy that really does work for everybody. >> are you going to be able to count on conservative democrats to support you on the employee free choice act? >> well, here's what i think. i think we'll have plenty of votes to pass it in the house and enough votes to get it by in the senate and i think everybody is onboard because they know that the system really is broken. it needs to be changed. there needs to be a count balance to the power of corporations and the power of wall street and the only way to do that is to win power workers. >> air on the record. plenty in the house and enough
in the senate. congratulations to you again. good to see you. >> thanks, rachel. coming up on "countdown", late-late show host craig ferguson joins keith to talk about sarah palin's big secret foreign policy speech in china. next on this show my friend ken jones reports on the newlywed game and the newly legally wed.
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i never really thought i would make money doing what i love. robert shapiro: we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. we turn to our matrimonial recreation correspondent mr. jones. this is intriguing. >> good evening, rachel. a poll in iowa said 92% of iowans said same sex marriage had no effect on them whatsoever. it didn't apparently cause the apocalypse so now there are little marital victories happening all over the place.
the next one? game shows. take a look. once again "star trek's george decay" boldly goes where no man has gone before. he and his husband brad will be the first same sex couple on the new newlywed game hosted by carney wilson. fire torpedos! of course any time gay people get to do anything they never got to do before the usual suspects make the usual noises. quote, they're trying to use tv and the movies to set the gay agenda and make it main stream. yeah. imagine that kind of thing in the main stream. of course for me the newlywed game will always be the classic hosted by bob eubank who quizzed young couples about how well they really knew each other. guess what? not that well. >> what would your husband say is his favorite thing to squeeze in the supermarket? jane? >> i think meat.
>> gentlemen, how many decades has your mother lived? >> i don't know what a decade is. >> george, brad, congratulations for joining the long list of couples who have appeared on "the newlywed game." this is progress. >> what will your husband say is his favorite condiment? >> oh, i would say his pool table upstairs. >> his favorite condiment? his pool table. yeah. >> spectacular. spectacular. i have to say, the idea of mr. sulu being married is so unsulu to me. i'm happy for him but i think of him as mr. sulu. >> i have a hard time thinking of any of the people on "star trek" being married. >> it's very futury. >> not so much. >> thank you. thanks for watching tonight. we'll see you tomorrow night.
"countdown" with keith olbermann starts right now. have a good night. which of these stories will you be talking about tomorrow? the 80% solution despite 564 proposed senate amendments, the president thinks that's the overlap of agreement in all health care reform bills. he's now done 80% of all tv programs. >> the key is now just to narrow those differences and if i don't feel like it is a good deal for the american people, then i won't sign a bill. >> if there's 80% agreement, there's also 20% disagreement and we all know who the national distributor is for disagreement. >> it's really time for the president to hit the reset button. >> you think the plan is dead? >> i think it is. >> good thing boehner says obama is not a socialist even though he's disagreeing with himself. beware the military industrial complex. eisenhower validated again in
afghanistan. >> i am now going to take all of this information and we're going to test whatever resources we have against our strategy. >> the president hesitates on more troops to afghanistan so somebody promptly leaks the forecast of the nato commander in afghanistan. no new troops equals likely failure. the ethical failure of the year, the protests in d.c. completely organic except for this person here egging on the crowd to make more noise. she happens to be a fox news channel associate producer. how did abc, cbs, msnbc and cnn miss this story? we covered it. we got out of your way after we saw that you were fabricating it. and the value summit on friday gave billo a media courage award and neither he nor the voters had the courage to allow the media in. what values does he represent exactly? blaming kidnapped children and in