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tv   Hardball With Chris Matthews  MSNBC  October 16, 2013 7:00pm-8:00pm EDT

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and i talk about how adversity's a lesson in life. shakespeare said the sweet use of adversity can make you stronger and more firm if you're not weak and one to run from standing up for what you believe in. "tonight show"s that. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. unacceptable. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. if it were just a supreme waste of time which this government shutdown was it would be disg t disgusting enough. but look at this beloved country of ours. did the world look up to us? did it? does it now?
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does it appear we've avoided a colossal defeat? we've just witnessed a historic disservice. our political system has endured a minority of members in the house. isn't it worse that a majority of those who have taken the oath to defend the country and its confusion have been driven to the very edge of the cliff in a clown car, that they've allowed their loyalty to the country to be if loyalty is worthy of that word to the loudest mouth at the next town hall. or is this the end of the nightmare. by allowing these clowns to promenade across the national stage we have wheted their appetite for more. they will wrangle for more talks over the budget cut. they will threaten us until
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january saturd15th, they will d again come february 7th. only a few will relax at how this ended, because it hasn't. i don't see any reason for applause or hot dogging. a small group of right-wingers led by ted cruz has basically taken over our national attention, ground the government to a halt and taken us to the edge of national, fiscal and economic embarrassment. how can you say they lost. >> i spent the day on the hill, and i can describe the mood there as a grim exhaustion. and it took the entire collective will of the congress and the white house for that matter to stop one man. and that one man was ted cruz. and ted cruz came out into the hall outside the senate after the deal in the senate side had
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been announced. and far from seeming cowed. far from seeming defeated, he seemed empowered. and within the ranks, perhaps dwindling, but within the ranks of the tea party, he's a new hero. he may be the emperor of a dwindling kingdom, but he is out there taking it to the grassroots from now until the end of the new year. >> does he still have the power to ignite government terrorism? can he terrorize members of congress and say all i have to do is point my finger at you and threaten you with a primary opponent and you'll do what i tell you to do? >> no. i think not. i know he's going to be out there for the next couple month, and i agree we're going to be facing similar scenarios in january and february, but i got a sense that the senate as a whole is going to surround ted cruz. and they're going to say either you play ball to some extent or
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we're all going to come after you. that's sort of what happened now. he's got an enemy in mitch mcconnell. mitch mcconnell has a tea party opponent. and he's a pretty smart guy. if he decides he wants to make life miserable for ted cruz, he k but on the other hand, he's not there to legislate, he's not there to be a member of the club. he gets his power from his martyrdom. >> so well said. i tell you, almost every demagogue has used righteous indignation as their plea. i've been screwed. they weren't strong like i am. righteous indignation. he's got that hurt, evangelical look in his face. >> he said we could have won this fight if if hadn't been for all those wimps in the senate, that the house stood strong.
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and so, as howard said, he is unbowed here. the good news is, is that for everybody else, other than ted cruz, every other republican who went along, was pushed along, there is no reward for this carjacking. there is only pain. at the end of the day, the republican brand is at an all-time low. the internal tensions, the civil war within the republican party has not been resolved. i think it's been exacerbated and will continue as we get to these other deadlines and into the 2016 presidential race, and i think the most prominent leader in the land, john boehner has been proven to be politically impoe tent. so you put that all together and the whole republican establishment and even part of the tea partiers they all realize this went astray.
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and so, the interesting thing will be after, you know, this settles, whether john boehner is able to look at these 40 or 50 firebrands again and say you know what, guys? we're not doing this again. we're not doing this in january. >> i want that tape. we'll play it over and over again if he actually does it. >> he has yet to hammer them. at the end of the day today i think it was all exhaustion. boehner still is going to have to stare these guys down and say no more. >> he's not going to do it. >> what we've agreed to do is not bring down the government. that's an exciting accomplishment for three or four weeks. they announced a deal today to reopen the government through january 15th. and raise the dead limit through february 7th. that's all. before any of these deadlines hit, a committee would be required to try to hammer out a
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deal by december 13th this year. there was no significant changes to the affordable care act. in a radio interview, john boehner said he has agreed to bring the bill to the floor even though republican support will be far from unified. >> we've been locked in a fight over here trying to bring government down to size, trying to do our stop to stop obama care. we fought the good fight. we just didn't win. >> and earlier today, ted cruz agreed not to hold up the senate vote. he claimed victory. and of course, as always, bashing his colleagues. >> there's nothing to be gained from delaying this vote one day or two days. the outcome will be the same. every senator. every member of the house is going to have to make a decision where he or she stands. but there's no benefit. i've never had an intention of delaying the timing of this vote. i would point out that had senate republicans united and supported house republicans, the outcome of this i believe would have been very, very different.
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>> let pea get back to howard on this. it seems to me what he's calling for is the unified right wing republican party, in order, forget the center right. i want the entire republican party on capitol hill to be right-wingers like me. that's the call to arms right there. you just harold eard it. >> and he'll be taking the vote in the house that will be coming up later, which i think will pass substantially with democratic votes, not republican votes. he'll take that as a symbol of the corruption and the weakness of the existing republicans. >> is that a knife in the back of boehner? >> yes. he'll say that kind of thing, if not publicly, privately. and the fact is that boehner has done this before. boehner's been forced to do this before, which is to put up a bill that essentially passes with more democratic votes than republican. ted cruz, as i say is not there to legislate. he's there to build a grassroots
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movement. congress of the united states is merely the backdrop for what he's a and the more he's criticized. the more he's ostracized, the more he's surrounded, the better it is from his point of view. >> and the grassroots groups who drove this, they came out this afternoon, and they said we want people to vote no on this. so heritage action, jim dement. this whole grassroots energy that cruz is trying to exploit is not going away. as john boehner puts this on the floor, he is now defying and turning against the true energy in the party. >> nationally the tea party's numbers are going down as fast as the republicans are going down. cruz is the emperor of a dwindling king dollar. it isn't clear to me however much they were able to hold up action here uselessly for a
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couple weeks here in washington, how much that's going to translate to any kind of national mainstream popularity. >> it won't. it won't. >> you want to talk about the iowa caucuses in 2016, maybe. but the country as a whole, i doubt it. >> being the alligator in the river is a big deal to the alligator. any way. mick mitch mcconnell had a clear miss and for his fellow republicans. it's time to move on. >> throughout this debate, the public has rightly focused on obama care for good reason. the refusal to -- republicans remained determined to repeal this terrible law. but for today, for today the relief we hope for is to reopen the government, avoid default and protect the historic cuts we achieved under the budget
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control act. this is far less than many of us had hoped for frankly, but it's far better than what some had sought. >> david, let me be brutal here and suggest that mitch mcconnell, obviously a smart guy. john boehner a somewhat -- well, you have to empathize on him in some level. he always looks like he's in distress. these two gentlemen knew all these weeks that they had the chance to pull the plug. they could always do it. and yet all those weeks when they knew they could do it, they threatened this country with downfall economically. i think that's a problem. if they had just told the country, you know, in the end we can talk, talk, talk, but in the end we're not really threatening the country. we're going to come together and have a deal and put all this stuff aside. no. they played the game. they played like they were going to threaten the government with shutdown, but the government with economic failure. what do you think of that? >> well, in the meantime, you
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know, millions of americans did suffer. kids were thrown out of head start. people were denied cancer treatment, all the things we've talked about the last two weeks. mitch mcconnell for two weeks here basically hit, took a powder. he's up against the tea party candidate and republican primary. and at the end of the day i think he made a calculation, that hey, if i'm the one guy, if i'm the catcher in the rye, i've got to step up and do this, and maybe he can be the guy who tells the tea party, all right, enough already. i'll take you on while still calling for the repeal of obama care. it was in some ways a gutsy decision. but at the end of the day they ended up where a lot of people, where all the smart money, the conventional wisdom was right that this would not work out. they'd have to retreat at some point. so boehner takes more of a hit obviously, because he looks perilous, not able to do
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anything. but at least in washington, i don't know how it's going to play in kentucky, looks like a guy who stood up at the very end to keep the rest of us from going over the cliff. >> people say i'm tired of these bs-ing politicians who play games. it seems like they figured out ahead of time how they're going to do it and we suffer. this is how democracy fails. this is what it looks like. >> i wrote about mcconnell today. because i started in kentucky i keep an eye on all that. i think mcconnell's calculation is that the republican brand has been damaged. he may have a substantial democratic challenger in the state too. now he's more worried about his left than his right. and you're right, he doesn't deserve high marks for statesmanship if only because as you say he could have done this weeks ago. instead he let it play out. i asked daryl issa, what did you guys get? did you get anything out of this? and he said no.
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the simple answer is no. >> why did nixon keep us in vietnam for four years when he could have maid the deal that he made in '72 and '73? because he wanted to get reelected. that's why we've come to hate many of them. we'll be back with much more after this. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ banker ] sydney needed some financial guidance so she could take her dream to the next level. so we talked about her options. her valuable assets were staying. and selling her car wouldn't fly.
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we helped sydney manage her debt and prioritize her goals, so she could really turn up the volume on her dreams today... and tomorrow. so let's see what we can do about that... remodel. motorcycle. [ female announcer ] some questions take more than a bank. they take a banker. make a my financial priorities appointment today. because when people talk, great things happen. conservatives in the house of representatives are backing up house speaker john boehner saying that there's no talk right now of dumping the guy. >> i've actually been really proud of speaker boehner the last two and a half weeks. i don't think i should be ashamed of anything that he has done. so if anybody should be kicked out, it's probably those republicans, not speaker boehner, who are unwilling to keep the promises that they made to the american people. >> absolutely no talk of anything along those lines. no talk. >> we'll see how many of those
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house republicans vote with boehner tonight, "hardball" back after this. the recent increase in cafeteria prices is not cool. when you vote for flo, we'll have discounts. ice-cream discounts. multi-cookie discounts. pizza loyalty discounts! [ kids chanting "flo!" ] i also have some great ideas on car insurance. [ silence ] finding you discounts since back in the day. call or click today. i like her.
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welcome back to "hardball." this entire debacle of shutting down the government came down to a gamble that ultimately president obama would cave. the hill newspaper was told, i think the president's too weak to shut the government down. i think we will win. syria has hurt him significantly. it is a factor in the debt ceiling. and ted cruz rallied republicans in his words, not to blink. >> what happens next is president obama and harry reid are going to scream and yell those mean, nasty republicans are threatening to shut down the government. what has to happen after that is we've got to do something that
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conservatives haven't done in a long time. we've got to stand up and win the argument. if you have an impasse you want to know one side or the other has to blink. how do we win this fight? don't blink. >> well, the gamble failed of course, and a caucus in disarray. we are seeing how badly they underestimated their opponent, president obama. senator amy is a democrat. here's what i never liked about the approach. in this case they went to the president, we know your his storic accomplishment. we know how proud you are of health care. think have worked for it for a century. give it back. give me that back as part of the
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debt ceiling. i think that was an outrageous personal assault on the man, the country and his party. and the achievement of this country in the last presidency. and to ask for that, give me that was never a negotiation. it was a personal insult to the president. >> well, i think what the president did here was to say i'm going to govern. and yes, we need checks and balances. and he in fact met with republican senators all through the summer on the budget and has clearly showed at the end of last year in his negotiations with speaker boehner that he wants to do something long term on the budget to bring the debt down, but it has to be a balanced approach. but this time, as you pointed out, this was all about partisanship, whether it was delaying the affordable care act just as it was about to be launched or putting on things about birth control on a budget. i mean, that just was the wrong approach. and i think what is most significant here is the american people saw it, as you point out, and also you have independents.
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we have a situation where karl rove commissioned a poll. 58% of independents said they didn't think we should shut down the government over the affordable care act. so i think this was the president standing up and saying we've got to move forward. and then also, the most significant thing here is because of how extreme they were, how extreme ted cruz was, moderate republicans finally stood up and found their voice, whether it was people willing to go on tv and talk about it. or whether a group i was a part of who said let's find something to get us through the short term and set the stage for a much more reasonable budget negotiation. >> what is the future of ted cruz? >> i don't know. that is up to his supporters and what happens. he is one senator from the state of texas. but, you know, a lot of his supporters think it's very cool. he stands up and gives a speak for himself in the senate for 24
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hours. i think it's good to stand up for people they don't always agree with for the betterment of this country. at least we stood up to that kind of extremism, and the president clearly led the way. >> do you think the president's out of the woods in terms of this happening again if the budget talks don't work in december? the next deadline is in december and january. and then you have another budget ceiling coming up or debt ceiling coming up in february. it just seems to me that these are all opportunities, like a steeplechase. any one of those chases, times in the race, they can use it again. slam that door again and do this all over again. >> well, chris, i think this has been brewing for a long time. it's been under the surface, and now it blew up. i think it almost had to happen. none of us wanted it to happen, in order to stand up and say we're not going to let you keep doing this. maybe they'll try again. what the american people
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thought, i think that makes a difference. and you also have with january 15th where over $20 billion more of these sequestration cuts take place. you have a group of moderate republicans that really don't want that to happen that will join forces and say let's bring our debt down. but let's do it in a balanced way. and that will be the real test. >> you don't have to make a criticism of the president. he certainly doesn't deserve criticism today of all days. he's been hit over the head saying he doesn't spend enough time working with the members of the congress. and yet, i've never seen such unity. the party has been incredibly united. why? what's made it work so well as a unit this time? >> well, i think first of all, i can speak more to the senate, but we're a big tent. we have people that are
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conservative democrats like joe manchin. and we have people like bernie sanders. we have all worked together to say this is so extreme to talk about taking the health care away from $25,000 a year staff members. and it really united people in a way that we hadn't seen. and then finally, we have the fact that the president, since his last election, did say, you know, i've got some work to do in working with congress. and i think he has reached out. he's really made an attempt to work with republicans as well, to try to work on a budget. >> i think he deserves a congratulations on your side of the aisle. >> thank you very much. joining me now, david axelrod. you've got the keen eye. and you know what's going on now. what is this going to do in terms of the president's prestige? what's it going to do in terms
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of his track record? a lot of the people on the weenie right have been saying he doesn't have the guts to stand up to this thing. he did. he didn't blink. i hate that word, blink, because even the cuban missile crisis required a blinked. i'm glad there was a blink otherwise we would have will nuclear war. where's he stand now in terms of prestige and power? >> well, look, i think it's, you know, they did test him. he was very, as you said, he didn't blink. he was resolute, and he was resolute, chris, not because of himself, but because there was a principle here that was very large, which is if you yielded on this part, then why not three months from now, six months from
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now. why not in future presidentsies in both parties would see this as a legitimate tool of negotiation or extortion, really. >> yes. >> he felt very, very strongly about this. so this was bigger even than the issue of the health care law. it was bigger than the issue of his particular standing. the question now is what happens after. i would not, and i don't think he will, and i think the white house signaled that. this is not a time for spiking the ball in the end zone because all it did was open the possibility that in the next few months that there could be some rational budget discussions that will yield some solution. in answer to the question you asked the senator, though, i think everybody has stared over the abyss and they don't like what they sigh. standard & poor's said this was a $24 billion hit to the economy. would reduce the gdp by six
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tenths of a point. this is not a game. it's not go positioning. it's not about poll numbers. ultimately, there are real life consequences to this. the american people are the ones who bear them. i don't think people want to go back to this. so can you take advantage of this moment and make some progress? >> let me ask you. when you put your head on the pillow at night and you were thinking the last three days or so, what do you think the president would have done if they had jammed him and said we're taking your baby away. we're taking away health care, rip some of its legs off, would he have said i'm not going to deal with you on that basis? we're just going to have to go to default? what would i have done faced with the dismemberment of his main achievement and default? what would he have done? >> i don't know what he would have done in spiecific. he was resolute about this, though. and at any time, if you did not,
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if you were willing to yield at any time and sort of pay ransom, then you're really opening the door to a rekurns of this again and again and again. he was very aware of that i now it was a tense, it was a tense prospect. on the other hand, you know, one of his great virtues is that he does think long. and he was thinking about the long-term implications of this. and i think i did the right thing by hanging tough on it. again, now the question is what happens moving forward. and my sense is what he's thinking about is can we take advantage of this window here. for the first time, chris, they've, in five months, the republicans in the house have agreed to appoint kfys to discuss the budget. so that's progress right there. >> final ted cruz hasn't stopped that one. finally, do you wish you were
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back in the huddle last week? >> the truth is i did not. because it looked like a lot of sleepless nights -- i spoke to my colleagues frequently, and none of them sounded like they were having a great time, i must say. >> these are the burdens of life and the burdens of office. up next, sing along with ted cruz, the wrecking ball of washington. not funny times, but we can make fun of some of this stuff. [ male announcer ] campbell's angus beef & dumplings. hearty cheeseburger. creamy thai style chicken with rice.
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♪ [ male announcer ] more room in economy plus. more comfort, more of what you need. ♪ that's... built around you friendly. ♪ yesterday president obama helped make sandwiches at a soup kitchen for the homeless. and by homeless, i mean people who work for the federal government. the white house rejected a plan from house republicans. yeah house republicans september
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up a plan, and they rejected it. apparently the republicans offered to end the government shutdown if the democrats would go back and lose the presidential election. >> that was on the ridiculous demands coming from the gop in the last two weeks. david letterman took the debt limit fight to an absurd new level on the late show last night. >> how do you do. i'm dave. >> hi. i'm from the congressional budget office. >> is everything okay? >> i've got bad news, dave. >> oh, no. >> we can't raise the dead ceiling. the good news is we can raise the roof. hit it, paul! ♪ ♪ raise the roof ♪ everybody raise the roof
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♪ well, that happened. and if it wasn't far out enough, just take a look at this new ted cruz mashup of miley cyrus's video, wrecking ball. it's beyond creepy. ♪ you're not coming down ♪ now i came in like a wrecking ball ♪ ♪ all i wanted was -- >> occasionally this job asks
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too much. t ted cruz says he's not giving up. is it time for republicans to give him up? ions. ions. i need to rethink the core of my portfolio. what i really need is sleep. introducing the ishares core, building blocks for the heart of your portfolio. find out why 9 out of 10 large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs. ishares by blackrock. call 1-800-ishares for a prospectus which includes investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. read and consider it carefully before investing. risk includes possible loss of principal. congestion, for the smog. but there are a lot of people that do ride the bus. and now that the buses are running on natural gas, they don't throw out as much pollution into the air. so i feel good. i feel like i'm doing my part to help out the environment.
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with some breaking news, the senate is voting to avoid the default on the national debt. it is the first of two votes tonight. the second one is the vote on final passage, and it is expected to pass. the house of representatives will take it up later tonight. we're also expecting the senate's democratic leadership to hold a news conference once that is complete. and we will bring that to you when it happens. let's get you back to chris matthews and "hardball." welcome back to "hardball,"
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does anyone want to be identified with the republican party these days? has the republican party improved its image and shortcomings among voters? no. is it in a stronger position to win elections than it was a year ago? no. and the man responsible for the gop becoming so self-destructive, ted cruz couldn't care less. listen to one republican candidate last night. >> where i don't agree with the national republican party is long and hard. i am pro choice. they are not. i am pro gay rights as well as marriage equality, they have not. i have been outspoken about these issues other and over again. do not lump me with the national republicans. it's unbecoming. >> that was republican candidate for new york mayor, joe lhota, not just running but sprinting away from identity with the
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republican party. republicans have blindly followed cruz, their supreme commander as he sends them out on the kamikaze mission. he's laid the foundation for his own presidential run while his party burns. susan, i want to hear your fresh thoughts on this, which is why would you ride or chase after this pied piper when it's clear he was making a demand to the president that the president could never meet, ever, and still be able to be president, knowing he would face defeat, knowing it would fog weeks and weeks of government shutdown. he knew it would end this way. it had to, or is he dumb? what's going on here? >> i don't think he's dumb. i think he's smart or he's book smart. i don't think that he really quite understood the politics of the situation. i think he vastly underestimated
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the president's resolve on this. it was like in that second debate with romney, when romney was digging in and saying he had never used the word terrorism. and i had this face during this entire thing with the shutdown. he knew he was going to win this. so now you have cruz who i think is just listening to his own echo chamber of tea party people and so convinced that he's right and so convinced that all of america is behind him and has not only damaged any chance he has to run for president but damaged the party nationally. they had a good chance of taking the senate back, and now that doesn't look so bad. and i think he's damaged speaker boehner with all this. so it will be interesting to see how much more they distance themselves. >> what a perfect point. cruz stepped off the senate floor to speak to reporters, and he took a parting shot at the affordable care act. >> my focus is, i think, where
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the american people's focus is, which is what are we doing to provide real relief to the people who are hurting because of obama care. and unfortunately, today, the united states senate is doing nothing to help the american people who are hurting because of obama care. >> there is so much of joe mccarthy in the way he threatens people. and now he goes around in that sort of what's the right word -- crusade. demagogues don't last long in the united states senate. four years for mccarthy, that was a long run. how long is this roman candle of a dem goiagogue going to burn? >> they said they regretted making the move. if he keeps going the way he's
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going, losing support and losing support back home, there's no way he can win reelection. but in that clip that you showed when he talks about listening to the american people and the people who are being harmed, the people who support him most are the people who really, really hate the affordable care act, they really, really hate obama care. so they supported him 100% what he was doing. and ted cruz may not look at the polls, the nbc new, wall street journal poll showing that the republican party's support has tanked. for him, that's all that seems to matter. >> it me, it's not about belief. it's fine to be a conservative or a liberal. it's about tactics. it's the way you attack your fellow people, the way you deal with reality and your country. and at some point you say i have a decent respect.
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here's the houston chronicle editorial you alluded to. when we endorsed ted cruz we did so with many reservations and with one recommendation, that he follow kay bailey hutcheson's example. obviously he has not done so. he has been part of the problem in situations where hutcheson would have been the solution. it's pointing the finger at your fellow republicans. it's pointing your finger at chuck hagel, the nasty tactics that he uses. and that's why mccarthy was the villain, the odd guy out, and they basically got rid of him. >> but there's a lot of people out there who kind of like that. we've had this general corseting of our culture. with wanting to be a malcontent when you're a voter, you about
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you can't act that way when you're working with other people. you had it right. he's on a crusade. he's on a mission. i really think he doesn't see or hear any other voices as he goes on this mission. >> i'm not sure what he's doing positively. he's only doing negative. up next, the republican fantasy of gutting the affordable care act has been an and jebt failure. so have republicans learned their lesson? or will they go back at it in january? with an innovative showerhead plus wireless speaker, kohler is the proud sponsor of singing in the shower.
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mitch mcconnell's tea party challenger in the kentucky primary is on the attack. he said this in cutting a deal. when the stakes are highest, mitch mcconnell can always be counted on to sell out to conservatives. mcconnell just kboernegotiated gop to harry reid. we'll be right back. mine was earned orbiting the moon in 1971. afghanistan in 2009. on the u.s.s. saratoga in 1982.
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look at the wall street journal poll. they are not a liberal organization. look at the poll this mornings. 24% of the american people approve of republicans. that's approve of the republicans, that is an all-time low, you better wake up. we're in a serious situation right here, we better wake up and try to come to an agreement, salvaging something out of this. >> welcome back to "hardball." that is an upset john mccain imploring his party to wake up. that is a call for looking at the numbers, as he said, 27% in the wall street journal poll. their negatives are almost as higher as the positives in the political party. what have they learned? that they can either decide they failed because they overreached. or others may conclude they didn't go far enough.
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steve ratner, former economic adviser to president obama, reaching across the political spectrum from where you sit, where do you think they will sit? when they re-consider their approach or make it hotter, with the government shutdown near say, january, or as near as february? >> well, i think the issue is there is not only one day, multiple forces within the republican party. obviously, we have the deal we have because moderate mainstream conservatives in the senate really led the effort to do the business of governing. and compromise the democrats and do kind of the rational course here, the big challenge is what are the house republicans going to do? in 1995 they saw they made a huge mistake and didn't
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re-litigate the issues again. they just tried to put it to the side and move on. i think it would be the best course for the country. because just the last few weeks has been horrible for our economic growth. we have lost hundreds of thousands of jobs from the gop shutdown. >> why do you think that women -- i agree with you, observing -- it is obvious. why do you think that women republicans in the senate, maybe not all the moderates were trying to find some way to broker this thing, effectively, why do you think that women are better at this than men, or seem to be. >> women meet on a bipartisan basis, at least once a month, regularly. they have bipartisan bills. so they have that kind of new relationship that is ongoing. seeing that the democrats and republicans are not enemies,
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they were put there to find a solution. >> let's talk to steve now, why do you think so many are hard-nosed. the fact they would take a lead from ted cruz, there is something in the water. they are either afraid of the guy, they think he is hot politically, why would they listen to a guy that is sort of the outlier, renegade -- >> first of all, i don't know of i want to get into the discussion of men versus women -- >> i didn't bring it up. >> i just stated the facts. >> why did the 599 members of the charge of the light brigade follow their general into the massacre? i do think this is a teachable moment for the republicans and for the country, i think they learned that they cannot litigate obama care.
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certainly through the debt ceiling and probably not even through a government shutdown. i think they learned that the debt ceiling is politically toxic. americans get the idea they should not default on their debt. whether they choose to use the shutdown in january, we'll see. i don't think you will see them trying this playbook again. >> i agree with that analysis, i think people know the debt ceiling is for real. threatening us internationally. but the government shutdown caused pain and hurt people. i think people looked into the eye, wait a minute, we're going to pay all of these people for not going to work? we're punishing them by telling them to stay home, and chicken out, saying we're going to pay them, of course. and two, three, four weeks, it is absurd, not symbolic, but wasting workers and time. the fiscal conservatives should be most concerned about that. >> and i think who really broke the fever on this was "the wall
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street journal" poll, which showed a collapse in the gop brand. that was driven a lot by the government shutdown, people didn't understand what they were trying to accomplish. people didn't really understand what this was. other than what they hate most about politics, which is you know, bitter, unending partisan ideological fights. >> steve, that is really the fault line texhe grass rights, people like the coke brothers, how about that division? will that be important between the haters and the wealthy? >> well, how about the wall street journal? you had the wall street journal which is the bastion of republican politics, editorializing against these guys day to day. there is a clear fault line
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between the business establishment republican types, and the ted cruz types. and of course, you saw ted cruz' own hometown newspaper unendorse him. which is something i have never seen. >> thank you, i have my heart in that place, reaching across the ideological spectrum for analysis. thank you for bringing that back, steve ratner, of course, we'll be right back after this. thrusters at 30%! i can't get her to warp. losing thrusters. i need more power. give me more power!
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