tv [untitled] January 28, 2011 7:00pm-7:30pm EST
multi-step stories the egyptian president says he will dissolve the government but remain in power as tens of thousands defy teletubbies to clash with police and the country's fourth day on. a person is already being made between them dressed in the arab world and become ever below shows and post soviet countries over the last decade. russia's state duma is considering tighter security measures including a new one to terror warning system after monday's suicide bombing don't identify airport in which thirty five died several at the professionals have already been fired of the failures that is linked to the outrage. on the key media allstar to adoption treaty between moscow and washington is signed by president been vetted the fund such agreement in two decades is a loss expected to come into force at the start of next month cutting weapons by.
up next debate show cross talk with people about whether he's going to discuss what the documents and palestinian israeli relations recently unearthed by al jazeera have close to show that on the middle east peace process. and you can. still. welcome across an archive you know a little a huge embarrassment for
a last historic opportunity the release of over sixteen hundred documents covering a decade of negotiations between the israelis and palestinians show a pattern of deceit powerlessness and despair. kate. to discuss the meaning of these leaked documents i'm joined by omar badar in washington he's a political scientist and promotes human rights in miami we go to each eye flasher he is the host that israel national radio and director of cooma and in tel aviv we cross to my one mary she's a freelance journalist and writer and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right folks cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want if i go to my in in israel in tel aviv i'm going to be very blunt here after reading these leaked documents it seems they mean one of the biggest lies of the last decade has been exposed for what it is is a lie and that is is that we have heard repeatedly in mainstream media from the
state department all the way to the government in tel aviv successive governments that the israelis have no partner for peace in the middle east that's a blatant lie and we know what now by these authentic documents my goodness the palestinians were willing to give away not just a kitchen sink but the whole farm for peace and the israeli said no. yeah i think that the papers prove without a doubt that really it's the palestinians that had no partner for peace the palestinians were more willing to go the lie all and nothing seemed good enough for as are all but land land land land that's what it comes down to the israelis don't care about peace they want as much territory as they can get and so you know what we've been seeing is the israelis dragging their feet and building settlements at the same time they're building facts on the ground so the more they have on the ground you know the less they have to give away and that seems to have been the
strategy. you know what this shows is that the it's very interesting i almost want to say that seems to me the leak must have come from the p.a. that appears trying to distance itself from these papers but really they will serve the p.a. and the out to international community because it makes the p.a. you know it runs the risk of making the pay look pathetic at home while sympathetic abroad and it's one more piece of evidence that israel is not really a partner in the peace process and that the world needs to step in and help the palestinians build a state just like the one helped israel build a state in one nine hundred forty seven you know with the u.n. vote in one nine hundred forty seven that established that helped to establish the homeland for the jewish refugees now we have palestinian refugees that you know need a state desperately and israel is not going to get someone mention the fate of the
peace maybe the fate of the palestinian people when it comes to international community but he said if i go to you in miami how do you reflect upon what my just said because you know we've always heard i mean american so i grew up always being told that the powers these released have no real partner i mean these these documents certainly say to tell a completely different story how do you reflect upon the documents and what in our what our first guest had to say. well i think the documents definitely show that when israel demands to own its capital the people believe it and that even our challengers will say you're right this is your capital city and i think that israel should continue to say that about all its land the land that was given to it by the way out of the land that is our historical homeland the land that we were dispossessed from and therefore we just have to be strong and tell the truth which is this is our land and we should not give it away and i think the proves that the palestinians will back down if you just say the truth which is this that it's yours
but if you look at the documents used to you let me say jack if you look at the documents these were negotiations if you read the documents these are negotiation so then again that's being disingenuous because if you don't believe in these negotiations why are you pretending to be involved in these big oceans you can't really have it both ways so go ahead me go ahead go ahead agree with you one hundred percent i didn't do it if you want to just know you really. there is no claim to. really know. what. you think. and that's why. folks like you just like international law don't talk about international law and the minute omar you've been listening to this discussion going on crosstalk early on in the game omar jump in. well i mean look what you said is absolutely correct there is a peace process that is based on the idea that israel would withdraw from the occupied territories to facilitate the creation of
a palestinian state that's the entire idea behind the two state solution now i'm hearing rabbi fletcher correctly then he's basically saying that he opposes the entire idea of a two state solution which actually puts him outside of the mainstream consensus internationally on how to resolve this conflict and that is perfectly fine i mean if he wants to say that we don't want to state solution this is a big terms like international consensus i know that the arabs as in the streets of the arab countries are very upset and i know radical leaders the risk you know that . have said over what is their size they want to have the palestinian state bill green brings us a very interesting home i know there to write another interesting point i think it was probably no gentlemen tired of that. freedom you should please release another thing that was brought up in these here and and it was mentioned earlier like we have in israel what's ok ok what kind of role the palestinian authority was playing here because it looked like it was very much
a pond of the united states as well and i want to talk about the fate of the palestinian authority later but again you. brings a very good point i think the arab street is angry in the greater middle east and they should be upset because all of america's dictators are in trouble right now ok good let him rise up let them have democracy and the palestinians should have a little lot more democracy too so it really kind of belies the point here is if it usually doesn't want to have. a radical arab rule you know i think what this will be one thing here we all have to agree with and which is really seem to require all i have to do with their own go ahead i'm going to get a lot of the right i'm going to get it i will be running or are you saying we're not going to get it under israeli occupation and we're not changing the subject you know what i was going to do with all sides and you're going to get they're not going to get it under palestinian occupation either they're not going to get another pal. so you know occupation you mean i mean i was there i guess the russians any american has to be occupied by the israeli i mean i mean i mean why
what is there i love this time there if i wanted to i was going. to turn that and she did and some merrier. i'll tell you how well you know if they have national liberation movements and friends who are going to not interfere with these areas since you've been here you are you just. have to jump in go ahead you have the floor look if if if you're going to invoke historical terms and you're going to invoke thousands of years of history to say that some sort of. religious connection to the land from two thousand years ago justifies returning to it then certainly that should apply to the palestinians as well now i don't think that the rabbi actually supports palestinian refugees right to return to their homes in haifa and elsewhere and that's the double standard here is that if you don't want to two state solution i suppose when i say israel the reality is i look at it so i saw out the arab world the arab countries would let arabs live normally in their countries you know it's so funny how you folks are talking about arab rights to these i'm not saying that as i said if anyone they don't how are you doing there who don't have
rights and on give them arab rights throughout the arab world stop this issue where john lewis designed it on this road when we're talking about who was on his progress and i listened and i took our nation for the jewish i was listening out and we're not going to give them up we have right he said i really wish and we still have the rights meson fellow student almost everybody else's territory has this is this is their lives there is also you see how denying it now mr feist are you listen for a second don't you see how denying the palestinian rights of its arms and. equivocal to denying the gym's right to self determined how can you say that this group over here cannot self-determined but the jews can it danger is the jewish right to help determine oh i was so nice when i was a regular that instead i don't see we're doing ok argentina's least you know this is not on this show and they will speak we this cannot be reduced to a competition between religious claims based on who you think god gave this land to
you know it's pretty clear to any fair minded person that if that's what you reduce it to you're going to have internal conflict not. there are extremists who don't mind but i think most of us sensible people want to come to some sort of reasonable peace agreement between both peoples in which case the proper framework is not religion and history but actually international law and international law is extremely clear about the fact that the palestinian territories the west bank and gaza and east jerusalem are illegally occupied and israel has no title to them whatsoever that's the simple reality that has to be acknowledged now if you don't like it if you want to say omar jews should be able to live anywhere you want to seem to be if you are one of them out of the fact that. i think that it's very important to not you know state the case in such unequivocal terms when really a lot of the things you said are simply not correct you know the last adjudication of the international monitoring of those friends and family are iraq which created iraq which created led by small excuse me last finish please iraq syria and lebanon arab states and all it also created
a jewish state you see it's fair to have twenty three arab countries in our region and one jewish each and this has sent the same time to listen program historically has nothing to do the least progress is an absolute disgrace i think that you have already in doing so for the united nations will never give up our claims to our homeland and there's a double standard i didn't understand but i knew i was on the one hundred one so i said we managed to misread some of those are my clear i don't know you don't want to answer anything there is no such thing as a legal thought about the one as it which one is that no i mean if you're going to some united nations creation of israel you have to accept the state of the united nations pentagon they are terrorism legally or not it is the country that gives arabs the most freedoms i wish that egypt and syria would give a little bit of freedom to arabs like you are selling if you want these young people you know what i am really getting are it's not easy. this program we're talking about the palestinian papers that have been leaked we've been talking about to behavior of the israeli government and the palestinian authority so can we stay
on that topic. you know my can you going to get off the paralegal on the interstate or marching today and then we're going to rake concert i don't know i am like every every every human rights situation every human rights organization in the world documents very thoroughly the flagrant abuse of the palestinian rights under israeli occupation the idea that palestinians living under occupation have more rights than are arabs living in other arab countries that's completely laughable i mean look at the situation in gaza where you have one point five million all going to prison i wish you would be in touch with some of the people that i know in beirut who taught talk to me about the life of fear that they live over there on their cars and the iranian right i'm sure to be right here we go to the break when we come to the break we'll continue our conversation on these leaks documents i hope they would. keep.
the clips of the team speaking to the screen. to the land developed by cossacks in ancient times. now wattie goes to the center of russian defense production. with christianity and shamanism existed signed by signed for centuries . with people in remote villages accountable from the basics please take for granted the complete lutein republic russia close up on r.t. . welcome to the. need to survive and speaks see shampoo and don't think a lot more regenerative life support seems just from our own waste special exercise equipment flights to flight and sink a logical prep keeps the stream off the brain during
a trip to one noisy update. here on r.g.p. we. covered. the strangest attempt to take out. the u.s. president trying to overthrow a foreign country's government but his strategic games. recognized its defeat. if cuba managed to cope with its victory. in the cuban missile crisis games in reality. welcome back to crossfire comes to mind you were talking about documents from the
middle east peace process. but first let's see what russians think about the conflict. changes to talks the release of palestinian documents might change the course of negotiations between israelis and palestinians over sixteen hundred documents detail more than a decade of negotiations between the sides the documents reveal posting in the go cheaters were willing to accept israel's annexation of old news jerusalem the public opinion agency live out of russians to which side of the israeli palestinian conflict they have sympathy sixty four percent said two neither fourteen percent sided palestinians and the nine percent israel is many believe the leaks good rearrange future negotiations. ok and i did change gears
a little bit and i had to go to omar here we've talked about israel or tried to talk about israel's involvement in these negotiations in make mix much success on the first part of the program so let's take a look at the on the palestinian authority what do you think needs to happen here because of read the papers very carefully it's the israelis and the palestinian authority basically trying to undermine hamas a good a great deal of it it talks about that there and in some of the very nasty activities on the part american intelligence british intelligence as well i mean what do the palestinians have to do now because when i pointed out you know maybe the palestinian authority will come out on top on this i tend to think not and considering now i will invoke the greater middle east considering tunisia egypt and other places the palestinians deserve better like so many other people in the in the arab world don't we need now to pursue a election a new election for a new leadership among palestinians that include gaza and get a leadership that can actually speak about the right because i mean even during
these papers with the right of return the palestinian negotiators just threw that away as well i mean we need to get a new slate a real government real negotiators they can really express the interest under international law and the palestinians. look at may very well be actually time for new elections tonight and i'd like good on my answer to go to ok it may very it may very well be time for new elections and i do think that some of the revelations are actually damaging to some extent to the credibility of the palestinian leadership i mean we all knew that there was security cooperation we did not know that it went to the extent of actually targeting some hamas members we all knew that there would be territorial compromises but we did not expect that at the time when the palestinian leadership would be publicly criticizing israeli settlement expansion in certain areas that would they would have privately conceded some of those areas so that is damaging to their credibility but i think it's unclear whether this would actually in itself lead to the collapse of the palestinian authority i mean many people have actually suggested that i don't think that's actually quite sufficient what it does is emphasize the need for
a game changer it restricts their political space for maneuvering so they cannot can no longer afford to keep bending to american pressure to offer more concessions and more negotiations in the face of israeli intransigence so i think what is needed at this point actually is pressure preferably american you know from from american policy makers on israel to be more flexible and to take the peace process more seriously have to actually be willing to allow for the creation of a viable palestinian state i think that's where the pressure ought to be focused it's very optimistic i knew i could never happen i had imagined i would tell of even like to go to you now you said you wanted to jump in and say yeah yeah i don't think that we're going to see what large scale protests are riots rise up in the west bank and part of the reason is because palestinians now that israel would be happy to go back and re occupy the west bank and that would pave the way for more settlements and a longer occupation and that will just maintain the status quo what i think we're going to maybe see happen here and you know the piers are the laying the groundwork
for this is that the theory is going to start turning towards the u.n. that the arab countries have just sent in draft u.n. resolution draft. seeking to condemn the settlements you know he has a. no secret that they hope to see a palestinian state declared this year by september you know ireland has just upgraded the palestinian diplomatic mission there following france and spain it's in the latin american countries you know recognize go ahead and recognize a state if they can use this new. and they can use it while then they might change the game but not as far as you know they might be turning to the u.n. if i go to you i mean is it possible i mean let me can i ask a question please if you think it's possible way that these these leaks these leaked documents is that could turn into israel's greatest nightmare because at the most pliant palestinian leadership they would do anything it wanted for virtually
anything except become zionist i mean israel may regret its negotiating stance of the last decade because by intransigence they actually destroy whatever party they have and some of the things we just heard that you actually might get. palestinian government authority that could actually do much better than what we've seen over the last ten years i don't think that that's really what the documents are showing i think that they're showing that there's a great divide in palestinian society and there's really a good cop in a bad cop i think you have. zero backs hamas and they're interested in leaking these documents you have. who have you know staged approach to kind of getting rid of israel and therefore you really have a conflict between two ways to kind of get rid of israel and israel showed itself as being a tough negotiator that's what we do it in the middle east but i want to agree with my colleague omar that i really think that american involvement is not a good idea what i don't understand is why omar says now let's use the americans on our side i say forget it let's push the west let's have direct negotiations
discussions between the tribe of the jewish people the tribe of the arab peoples we are middle eastern peoples we are really cousins we are related we don't need the west to get involved. i think that they are not interested in regional news and i'm going to tired of the borders has not all these countries and this whole you know new occasional market i see it when i go to you know i mean one of the biggest problems is when this is legal or if i could go to. mars about people who won peace on both sides versus extremists who are happy to continue this fight on both sides this is not about jews versus arabs and it's not actually you can say that you should do well if that was the worst i don't see where all sides are actually it's not even you don't have a balance of power that allows for both sides to negotiate on their own you have one party israel which has control over everything and you have the palestinians who are relatively powerless in the face of israel's military superiority on the ground so to say that they should be left for themselves to negotiate obviously will produce no more incentives really on the nation is
a very convenient to frame the issue that nobody would be very interesting asian if you frame it in any way issue if you can dream it that way you shape means you don't want any involvement of international law all right you want you want just to have a brawl and really to push these people out of the way saying to me i don't really only want and that's what you really want to do because you don't want anybody watching what you're doing right now not not at all. i think that i think that little statements are fallacious i think that you know israel has a tremendous success with its arab minority i lived with arabs and i was young i still live with today i think that the arabs that want to stay in israel are going to be welcomed in our country but nobody's going to destroy our country from inside nobody's going to be on the record when i go to mars no matter what we do we have to go from here we're doing here or anybody else quite quite process quite quite frankly people like rabbi fleischer are about you know i hear him talk a lot about israel's enemies and i think people like him are actually the most dangerous people for israel because the people who are keeping israel from coming
into the us i will agree with the palestinians in which peace would last are the ones who are actually endangering the long term interest of israel exum to a peaceful agreement and the occupation allow the palestinians to exercise their right to self-determination that is what is needed so quite frankly the only thing that there is to say at this point about the peace process this is that unless there is a game changer there is no new you know the right wing coalition government in israel has proven that it is incapable of coming to a sensible peace agreement with the palestinians voluntarily so there has to be a game changer there has to be some shift in the equilibrium locally domestically regionally or internationally that forces israel to take these negotiations more seriously and to understand that there are consequences to continuing the occupation of the domination of the palestinian people my if i can go to you i mean we want you we are in line for you in the television. and it's right now you can have netanyahu and abbas have gone out and shake hands and start talking i mean after all of these documents right now i mean what is the game changer because i mean i can't imagine that right now and i can't even imagine the same negotiating
team i think i mean she get on an airplane and go back to washington d.c. he made a complete ass out of himself scuse my language ok and so did the united states i mean where do we go here now that's why i can't saying that you know the palestinians are going to turn to the u.n. because that's the only possible option i'd say i think the peace process is that i don't think that we're going to have a. warlike some people have been saying. i don't see any other option certainly neither the israelis or the palestinians are ready to build a binational secular democratic state like i personally would like to see. so i think that the only option now is for the international community to step in just like it did in one thousand nine hundred forty seven with the un vote that helped establish the state of israel i don't understand why the israelis keep saying that the only way we can find an agreement to make a palestinian state is through the peace process because that's not how israel was me there was no peace process here in one nine hundred forty seven that made israel
the arab states did not agree to the un vote there is no you know the palestinians weren't consulted there was no agreement so why not go ahead and establish a palestinian state now when it's so clear that this current israeli government is never going to make demands that this government is hell bent and now excuse my language how bent on continuing to build i don't see it any other way. you say what do you think about all this i mean your country is run out even if it's ok if you showed a lot of things behind the scenes israel is a little embarrassed but it still does got what it wants right i mean it gets land and it just keeps saying we need to keep the process going process going that's the plan though isn't it. i think i think that you're right that it's embarrassing that we continue this process which really is a continuous failure of forty years i think that we should stop ask the people the regional peoples what they really think is right i think the jewish people will say
we have a claim to this land it's not biblical only it's a story that's archaeological it's legal it's international law and i think we should make a simple claim this is our land let's live with that with us so it doesn't happen to me it can actually start our claim is let's remember i mean when they also those men are logical and i want them and i want to one time. i want to make one point the difference between me the difference between me and my colleagues on this program is that they believe in a new form of imperialism they think that the world should get together and for solutions on the region i say look if well you know i really would like to do you that was actually here i said i mean i know if you use them is a very good word for this program here many thanks my guest today in washington miami and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk.
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