tv [untitled] October 31, 2011 3:30pm-4:00pm EDT
live from moscow with you twenty four hours a day top stories this hour and historic day for palestine which has achieved its full membership to a u.n. agency the recognition comes at a price with u.s. code using nearly a quarter of its funding which the u.s. cut in response. for impact syria's president claims a protest campaign against his regime is being funded from abroad the west not to get involved and the head of nato has ruled out imposing a no fly zone over syria with which some demonstrators in the country have been calling for. clash of the russian tycoons two of the world's wealthiest men for
a man of them over chin bodies but his office he take their place had to speak to a london court and spent no money on the flight but as aussie accuses every move a chip robbing him of five and a half million dollars and once sit back. i'll be back with more news stories more developments in this the hof an hour from now in the meantime october the thirty first signals a landmark in history after the global population officially reaches seven billion but cannot plan it really handle this many people let's all cross talk about it shortly. stay with us for that. live. live live live live. live. live. live. live.
hello and welcome to crossfire computable as the world reaches still another population benchmark the debate continues as to whether the planet can sustain such levels as well as the future of global consumption is the world overpopulated and if it is what should be done about it. live can. still live. to cross-talk population levels i'm joined by bobby to into our sitting here in berlin he's the executive director of united nations population fund in washington we crossed the martha madison campbell sees a lecture at the school of public health at the university of california berkeley and in gainesville we have matthew conley he's a professor of history at columbia university all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want me very much encourage it but first marcia where does the world stand right now seven billion people and still counting today's world population is double what it was in one thousand nine hundred sixty
seven and seven times what it was only two centuries ago but not century and projected growth put that figure at nine point three billion people concerns are mounting that such sustained expansion of humankind threatens to run dry this planet's already overstretched resources. the business as usual scenario predicts that humanity will be using renewable resources and land at the rate of two planets each year by twenty thirty and just over two point eight planets each year by twenty fifty in addition to medical progress and higher agricultural productivity fertility is thought to be the main driver of population interestingly enough worldwide population continues to grow despite the fact that the growth rate itself has been steadily declining the reason for this is the fact that there are still more people living in countries with a higher birthrate these countries are also some of the developing world poorest such as niger some. afghanistan and congo which means more people born into
dire poverty there are seven billion for citizen will be born into a war go country contradictions we have planned to for. us to start all social and economic equity as of the crux of the phenomenon because not only does overpopulation worth the hardest against the planet's most vulnerable groups but it is the developed countries that are currently enjoying the biggest share of the resources this has led many to argue that altering consumption patterns in tandem with improving access to family planning are essential elements of the population discourse but then again a really pressing crisis all that's going to be my first question thank you very much for that much my first question for matthew is the world facing a population crisis and you know i don't want to betray my age too much here but this is i've been hearing this for forty years so you know i'm going all the way back to like you know the will there was a book in one thousand nine hundred the age sixty nine population you know we've been every decade we've been warned that you know that their population has been
growing too fast for the world's resources but it continues on if i go first to you matthew. well that's right peter you could almost set your clock to it it reminds me a little bit about some of the preachers that we have here in the united states i happen to be in florida and florida is full of preachers who will tell you that the world is coming to an end and you might even believe them itself that they were predicting that last year before and ten years ago and twenty years ago the kind of figures you just heard were the same kinds of figures that people used thirty years ago forty years ago you know according to the club of rome we would have been using five planets now so if you believe those kinds of numbers and sure you should be frightened but if you want to focus on the real problem here you have to get past the numbers what do you think about that martha i mean it's a seven billion people is a lot of people on the planet but i'd like to point out that it's someone inform me before i did a program that if you took all of those people but i'm a shoulder to shoulder you could put them into the city of los angeles so i kind of
put it in different perspective people take up a lot of space however because they also need food they. are culturally very very important water is poured you wouldn't be able to live in los angeles in fact you can crowd everybody in there but i think that it's dangerous to say that we should let go of the numbers and look at other things the numbers are extremely important in terms of population is going to be like what life is going to be like even even thirty years ok if i go to you know our guest in berlin i mean today i mean really it's down to maybe not numbers but what's a good sound to use the type of lifestyle that people want to be able to have and if we look at the rich north of the rich west they consume most of the world's resources and we have emerging middle classes all around the the developing world the emerging world and they want to live like their european and american peers isn't that really the issue here is how you distribute resources divided by seven
billion nine billion ten billion and so forth. i think it goes beyond i think the real concerns in some developing parts of the world where population is growing fast economies can sustain and i think that you know if he is working with those countries you know that we'll be able to ensure that we've been young girls to take advantage of the new technologies that are available education and ensure that they come to the choices in their lives to have children going forward so it is first about demographic transition in those countries but beyond that i agree with you that the level of course the level of consumption of this morning is also syllable and we must then kora developing countries to adopt a different cause on from so that we can have it ok what an interesting point i
mean to a lot of people rich west that need to change its consumption matter you want to jump in there go ahead but i did it's because i was curious to ask about attend if the u.n. f.d.a. would also help empower those women who'd like to have more children instead of fewer i mean in africa it's more than fifteen percent of women who are aren't able to have children because they're very easily treatable and even preventable diseases reproductive tract infections and so on so what's a priority for helping the infertile this year and actually. no the issue about. production health is that we go beyond just family we provide services to ensure that. the child where she wants to have it and how this person so for those of them how many women is a huge population fund helping with infertility how many women are receiving
infertility treatment the way they're receiving hundreds of millions of them contraception from the u.n. do you have a figure for that. quite a number i do or how they would be right in saying it's zero is it your home but to the extent that we see it sexually transmitted infections we provide expertise to assure that they do not get to that point because most of the way you talk about actually do so far from these gentlemen let's let the woman on the program yes or some of this to martha in just being go ahead with jump in we have to obviously have a difference of opinion here got more of it going to. look after i think i think that looking at infertility is missing the point completely there are more women in africa who want to use contraception but can't get it there and then there are women who are using contraception and the unmet need for family planning is absolutely huge in africa and other very poor countries too and when i.
have. fifty million women wild why did fabulous money then i'll get in it but i think that that should be above the women who'd like children it was handled you know then as well. matthew jumpy and go ahead. i'd like to know you know if you're keeping count of the women who'd like to have children and can't because in fact that's the specter of the future i mean you're counting seven billion people and it just so happens to fall on what an amazing coincidence i mean i think you want us all to believe that this is some kind of horror story but for some women for many couples in the real problem is think you have children it is a. sure thing this focus like a laser the drugs over the five do they have their child where she wants it. to be working with the good all the other just used for sure that.
the child when she wants to are good and i think of these not holding. back martha jumping ahead matthew you are missing the point here the point here is population on a very huge scale and we are headed toward great trouble if this if the world goes up to sixteen billion people and stead of six billion people when you get certain billion friday the end of the century that is the high level of the united nations population division equate could be anywhere between sixteen and sixty million people at the end of this century twenty one hundred and so you're looking at the nine years into the future martha. it's high as you can see anyhow years into the future. now. you read on in the story and historians can even agree on what happened ninety years ago but you have crystal clarity about the world and twenty one hundred these kinds of warnings and so didn't really radical and in many cases wasteful spending on the wrong priorities and that's the point i wanted to. know
the more i thought it was released but martha replied to the no no let martha reply go ahead. it's extremely important to recognize that we're headed for here when i was born we had all we were taking fish out of the ocean it is taken out eight times that amount. that we have eight times the amount that we had then what's happening to the fisheries what's happening to the forest but it's happening to agriculture well people have enough to eat it is very very difficult even if you've each nine point three billion people by twenty fifty that is a serious problem because it means we're headed toward the medium to higher levels of numbers of people on the planet later i think we're heading for a catastrophe in fact if we do not slow probably one hundred ten from the most important thing. i think.
yes i think i think it is impossible to make the point clear that this is also about this is about trying to make sure that everyone can have a child when she wants to have it. she can access all the technologies that she can have the way she was driving without because i think it is the right that is going to do that and we're going to call to talk to. the child was here the sound. would that include ultrasound scan if they choose to have boys instead of girls no no just didn't know we've been on unity how that makes all the n.r.a. now not only mean here and there just a regular going to a short break after national radio continue our discussion on global population stay with archie. to.
to the. game. the same. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the world's population. the same can slow. ok matthew before we ended a first part of the program the c.u. word came up coersion and now and this is i want to talk about is that we look at population decline in the rich countries of the of the of the north and of the west because you could certainly have countries in europe that are dealing with that
issue and then we have some countries in the world that have their growth is much faster than they can sustain what role do governments play in this what role does the united nations play in this because you know what kind of incentives do you give people to have more children and what kind of incentives you give people not to have children because different countries have different experiences and different expectations i'd like to point out as well and that goes back to the other c word in this program and that's consumption. that's right peter and if i leave you with one idea it's the fact that we don't have a population crisis we have a consumption crisis there are real challenges from over using resources for a depleting fisheries and so on but if you want to see where the problems are it's not from looking at whether there are millions of people starving the fact is there are but it's not because there's too much or too little food in the world quite the opposite you know there's more than four pounds of food per person on this planet and when people go hungry it has nothing to do with population it has everything to do with power and inequality and unfortunately for too many years for decades
international non-governmental organizations allied themselves with wealthy countries they told poor people in poor countries that if they were poor if their people were starving it's because they kept having children they had too many babies and that's a legacy we're still living with that's the reason why in so many countries including nigeria in my country about to turn to its origin that is a country where many women don't trust or like i do not exist designed so you can because i think the other thing that i think. you should talk about experience is that you know about walks on the ground for forty years as a doctor and i can tell you that the lowest quintile the most societies in the developing world have children that they cannot look after it is not just the wealthy it is a housing is that what is our plan it's about it's about their ability to look after these children and also what i write and cheney asking lou when i was
asked how many people who he says to this was in your footsteps this is too big to exist which they want to make if you ask them they would rather. have let me just a little more as a sarkozy but i think is this is this a political crisis not a population crisis i mean maybe drop on the some of you just said. i say because there there isn't a dearth of food in the world but there is starvation there is that there are people living in massive poverty but there's the world the planet is very rich i mean what math is getting at is it's a political problem because of inequality now because we have too many people. i think it is a very much a crisis about population itself but he is right that is consumption is very important we consume much too much there's a huge unmet need for family planning but unfortunately there is no unmet need for wanting to consume less it's vertical much harder to deal with but we must do that
. there are probably ten day is absolutely right that there are very large numbers of women who have children who have babies pregnancies that they do not want we know this because of the huge number of unsafe abortions for example in many countries where women just are desperate not to have another child we should not have coercion there is no need for who are actually at all and there should be no incentives by the way incentives are not necessary what's really important is letting women have the means and the information they need to be able to manage whether and when to have a child when you think about their family so you agree with that i believe that that is what we should do is the rights that we should we should all do to of course they're sure though. yes of course said the word but you know produce exists both in the region the focal interest says. this the you know could see
exist everywhere but where you where you took a particular national state or you look at it the last quinto of of all of those things actually do have access to these things. you want to hold lists. and we should make it possible for them. to be. here for adelaide and equally matthew i would absolutely agree with morris are about to turn to when they say that every woman should be able to have the children that she wants but what i would add is simply that if the family for any community has always focused on those women this dog wanted children they have. i would like to have fewer children than they have but i'd like to know is when they're going to wake up and realize that there are hundreds of millions of women who are having difficulty having children it would like to have some help and in fact the biggest countries in the world china and india especially are countries where yes there are still incentives
so-called and not only that but there are disincentives there are severe penalties in china and for forty years here the u.n. population are thirty years rather the u.n. population fund has spent in china so i'd like to know over all these years you know this whole time the population fund has been claiming that they're ending the one child policy why is it after thirty years thirty years if you and support why is it we start a one child policy in china when i see you and finally going to callous it was a lot of the art of the course and. yes the thirty years to work on this isn't wrong information we have been there in the states in which you have worked we have been able to work with this authorities to liberalize what is up with that and we continue to work with the government of china we ought paused to watch thirty years brought so he knew pretty good dictions what is the kind of filing and the one time see. the truth of the matter is that we. believe
that you know. we should not leave it alone we should going to the kids for the rights based approach to say you'd rather be advice. you would rather help china's population control program which you say is having the effect of liberalizing the population control program and you like to do it all the year what are you going to be there for another three thirty. this morning i was in germany and here i was very supportive of the market is going to jump in and right now going to. do. the name of the word poverty hazard here is your idea it's very very important matthew weight please know what we really haven't looked at all where i we cannot find any country that has gotten out of poverty while maintaining a high average family size except for a few oil rich states this is very important what really means is that people
cannot get out of poverty they cannot be educated they cannot the health system cannot catch up with the fact that there are many more children born here than the year before in the high fertility countries is exceedingly important to make sure that women do not have babies that they do not want to have so that they can give the advantages to their own children that they otherwise cannot. i think this is if you would rather there is a problem that we have to assure that when a concert is that have to because of those seriously. choices for their lives they have come out not only out of quality video also girls who demographic transition. for more prosperous i mean if it is about and i think that this is what we continue to talk to. as sure that we would have access to form
a commission choice ok matthew you want to jump in there because what i think one of the things i'm kind of curious about is that if we do all the right things with family planning then what kind of population will the planet finally settle on is there is that populations go through these three demographic transition because at what number do we get out with a sustainable for the world's resources. well it's a very good question and in fact economists not just economists many others have been debating this for centuries there's been a discussion and debate over centuries about how many people the earth can support and over the centuries there are some of said that the earth can't support more than two billion or perhaps it's four maybe six or maybe eight and the fact is it's not just about the number of people on this planet it's what kind of people we will be yeah you know if we're going to continue wasting our resources if americans for instance are going to continue throwing out more chicken has eaten in the entire
indian subcontinent then know that care to one but that's why i would say that the real issue here is not the numbers of people on this planet especially not the numbers of poor people in this crowd because they're not the ones the countries that still have relatively high fertility are not the countries where people are over consuming and depleting the world's fisheries and burning up our fossil fuels and creating greenhouse gases the real problem here is consumption there is a consumption crisis it is not a population crisis and to say that the solution to the world's problems by such a solution to the world poverty is to get poor people to stop having so many children is worse than a distraction is worse than a distraction in later i think most late of what it is it is it is not one of the other it is it is both and to the extent that. person in the world sure how delightful dignity and should be to have quality to their lows that is what we're talking about so we're ask was on sean should be we should look out and shoot.
we do not consume the. planet's resources we should also help the poor women who have absolutely no access to education or to her of the choices. quality of their lives that that to confront you know when i want to go to matthew day we're almost out of time with you it seems to me it seems to be at the at the end it is program it's the problem of the west too willing to consume less the rest of the world consume or is there any political goal for specially in these hard times. i think that's what we all have to focus on and that's what i'm trying to say as long as we're looking at brown and black people and saying there are too many of them and that's the fault of the planet that's the specter of the future and that this halloween and every halloween we have to be frightened of a world of billions of people and that's for how long we're going to lose sight of what really matters you know the real crisis we're facing which is that yes we are
overconsuming resources and we are depleting the world's fisheries the planet is getting warmer but it has nothing to do with whether a poor family is going to have three or four children instead of two it has everything to do with what rich people are doing in the richest countries in the world well fascinating discussion thank you very much many thanks my guest today in berlin washington and in gainesville thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember prosecutors. wealthy