tv The Big Picture With Thom Hartmann RT May 31, 2013 10:00pm-11:01pm EDT
well i'm tom foreman in washington d.c. and here's what's coming up tonight on the big picture. unless congress has act quickly student loan rates will double starting july first the republicans do it's right for college grads or will they stick to their guns and let interest rates climb even higher die about that and more incentives big picture of them also in the wake of the arab spring the middle east is changing like never before how should the united states in gauge with a society and a region in flux i'll ask professor shibley telhami in tonight's conversations with great minds.
you need to know this it's graduation season and thousands of college graduates are beginning their lives in the real world and unfortunately a majority of them will be saddled with student loan debt for much of their adult life so this is thanks in large part to the high student loan interest rates in this country last year president obama worked with congress to secure a one year extension to keep student loan interest rates at their current three point four percent to prevent them from double way to six point eight percent that year is up july first and without congressional action the rates will double the president addressed the pending student loan crisis earlier today take a look since most of today's college students were born to asian and fees at public universities have more than doubled. these days the average student takes out loans to pay for four years of college graduates owing more than twenty six thousand dollars. how many people are on track here for twenty six thousand dollars.
and that doesn't that doesn't just hold back our young graduates and holds back our entire middle class because. the president's twenty fourteen budget propose that congress enact a long term solution that cuts rates and this year nearly all new loans ensures that all students have access to affordable repayment options and does not charge students higher interest rates to pay for deficit reduction of congress fails to act if for reduction if congress fails to act an incoming freshman who borrows twenty seven thousand dollars over the next four years is projected to pay over four thousand dollars more over the life of their loans without the president's proposal the house did act to address the situation but wants to tie student loan rates to the market meaning that they would increase and decrease with the market the way the old adjustable rate mortgages did back before two thousand and eight
that worked out really well didn't the americans deserve an affordable education and education that won't leave them in mountains of debt after graduation let's rumble. it's friday you ready to rumble joining me for tonight's big picture rambler marc harrold libertarian commentator and attorney ben cohen editor of the daily banter and banter media group and dutch martin advisory board member of project twenty one contributor townhall dot com thank you all for being here tonight as you're actually going into ok let's let's start off with the student loans you heard my intro rant shouldn't isn't this our most critical infrastructure dutch i mean we talk about rids roads and bridges but you know after world war two we invested in the infrastructure the intellectual infrastructure america with the g.i. bill after the civil war lincoln's of spouted land grant colleges in every state you know free education free college education we've done this numerous times now
we're just whack in our. yes well you it is a huge problem and personally i feel that you know of a bit a person must possibilities is in order on the part of the students and the parents granted a college education is very important i'm all for it but at the same time post secondary education doesn't necessarily have to be college it can be trade school it can be vocational guy throw them all into the same pot and say you know we should offer all of that and some months i personally feel that. he young person going to college can get just as good an education at an inexpensive state run school that costs about half as much as say a private four year college university why should it cost anything the fundamental being the public education that with the state university system being defunded where every everywhere i mean it's the look at what's happening at u.c.l.a. in from california the came to power u.c.l.a. was a totally free college a college in california which if you think only for
a show what is going to go up and you can make sure you're going to know nothing's free ok there's nothing free there's nothing wrong with it whether it's very it's the idea of who pays for it to say nothing is free somebody's going to pay if you actually not only is free it was more than free market because when people went to the university has to pay fees when people went to the university of california when they came out their earnings potential was so much higher potential their earnings were so much higher and their contributions to society i mean we invented the transistor and the integrated circuit that was the generation the did that the one who went to the one that once i went to college in california for free who invented computers don't think that if that remote or is that if your battery is lost about a problem why will they want to say it's socialized what it is so. we can be honest and say this is a socialized i mean it's collectivism but one thing here is that this is a big this is a vicious cycle and here's one of the reasons why the reasons to ition are up so high is because the government guarantee that to begin with got to intern rates have completely outpaced their market no product can do that why have the colleges been able to go up and up and up with tuition why it's been able to rise they would
have no consumers if no one can. afford it to it's risen because of these guaranteed loans to begin with well i don't disagree is there is that there is a dog chasing its tail here but the dog chasing its tail started with the reagan administration prior to that time for most of the history of the united states other than the exception like right after the civil war would all college was free all the langrune colleges and thomas jefferson starting university entirely free but but typically right up until reagan about eighty percent of all college tuition was paid for by the colleges the state or the local authorities eighty percent tuition was only twenty percent of the cost of going to college now it's exactly upside down eighty percent of the cost of going to college is paid for by jewish by now we've got for profit players in their toyota before i profit ones are just diploma mills banks figured out they could make money out of this they could make a lot of money out of this because it's sort of crucial for people coming up. into the job market to have a degree or mosses degree that it's almost mandatory if you want to get if you want
to get a job at the same paint job you have to have a degree much lotion we join the rest of the developed world all the other o.e.c.d. nations virtually all of them offer free or in some cases absolutely for you get a stipend for going in denmark or in norway and sweden to her going to college in germany in many of these countries if you in germany at the do a year of public service for the for the country why don't we do something like that you know a year in the military rank up to our country if we if we do that why build the how do you know what yours are things you why don't why don't want to college students through what all college students work and pay for their own education how about this not all of them that thirty years ago well they can do that today ok they can do that today over again ok over again my guess it excuse me excuse me but i mean i'm not knocking any particular college university i mean yes harvard has the big name but you can get just as good education at a house to go to versity for a fraction of the cost i already work your way through college ok but even just produce at ohio state is an expensive compared to what could it fair compared to
what used to be. virtually free and i think look i don't know absolutely i mean how it is lending college a college education is absolutely important absolutely i mean not just a bachelor's degree but a lot of places look for a master's degree but here's another issue a lot of people a lot of young people coming out of college with for lack of a better way of putting it on marketable college degrees ok a political science degree doesn't hold as much weight as far as having a. marketable important skill that i didn't maybe you know many years ago i mean i would rather i mean a mass to get from my house to university is going to have a lot easier time getting a job a math major than say a political science student well but at the labor market has shifted a lot of the a lot of employers are saying just a four year degree even for for any job at all that doesn't have to do with that degree the fact that person was able to do four years of college means that they're qualified to work in the workplace i mean is it is also depends on the patient i mean the skills that you're learning eccentrics but there's this that there's this
idea of well first of all anytime somebody asks you whether interest rates should be tied to the markets that's what an interest rate is the interest rate should be tied to the market all interest rates should be tied to the market that's how they should work but there's this other idea that obama's proposed the idea keep them fixed and they're likely to fixed rate mortgage interest rates should be should have to do with the market that's how interest works but the republicans want to do it like the adjustable rate and the like you know if paul volcker comes in and rates go up to sixteen percent good luck charlie all of a sudden he's doing a lot is going to cost twice as much and you can't discharge it with the bigger picture here too is one thing is who gave their government the right to take your money they come they take your money basically against your will and then they want to guaranteeing what in many cases are high risk loans for their citizens the governor government has no right to use my money to guarantee a loan for somebody else they just have no right to do that if that's the if it's an investment in the infrastructure of this country it seems like a reasonable there to it what about when the private citizen in their guarantee to leave and i do you know people have lobbying to put that dichotomy between how banks of banks and those corporations are treated in an individual students and
those corporations it get into federal court. it's on me to get the bad out that was one gigantic sixteen trillion dollars it's going here and i disagree with that i disagree with a bailout and i just want iran to happen a little bit but we have capitalism would deal with the interest rates would fluctuate with the market but just how interest rates or so but we realized we had to reinvest in blue st in the financial industry to get it working again what's the difference between not sure we didn't get we didn't manage it without income but there was no say we said we should not have bailed out and we should have bailed out a car company and let and make airlines go to bankruptcy everything be treated the same in the market so you destroy the entire global economy for some ideological propping it up artificially hasn't saved it i have to say that's where all countries buy stuff to have it is based on the government just on the end whenever the markets don't absolutely not is sort of it's based on completely different i should argue national in which i don't use regulation bottom line no not completely once you put the market out somehow relation has this force what something's going to do in the future government because markets not going to thing that we can't figure out the government is the only thing the only thing they're protecting us
from complete catastrophe from this completely insane economic system that is basically and that if you believe that the danger is there and all save us from the market yes i mean we could be further apart i mean that we're not even on the same level of our cold calls savage facts of how this is exactly not all capitalism a sandwich and it's not really about any dogs regulated yeah if you break it regulated but not not to the point where it's basically screwing everything up why we are getting too much for you to the free market bad thing that happened way way way to a show you know and they basically what we were just talking about right we saw it for the spectrum not what we are even talking about funding education we're talking about lending money to students that the federal money for and lend it to them at the same rate we lend money to the banks weiser right acquired the banks so much credit but not the year with the losing of the war if the government is the government can treat everybody equally the problem here is the government's involved at all the government should not be involved in this they're artificially propping up a market that has outpaced itself because of the very reason that involved in holding roads the government may in some ways that they should be proud most words
to be privatized. ok so fire departments police departments the actual road that they travel there is there so it would be something where there is a commons right as much there as i can there isn't and wizardry drive it is a non deal isn't an educated populace part of the commons is there that i'm not arguing that we're never babysitting at schools but what i'm saying is these you're talking on talking about how to it should work i'm not talking about the budget you're talking about actually taking my money and guarantee that somebody else is known but you can't do it ok but i can do it you do it so you don't believe it was a form of state education public education is that an intervention a market that's taking your money yes i did vesting it in people that you don't know is that it's not but it's not guaranteeing loans with that was guaranteed i did watch why would i would you would rather as a nation that just doesn't well wouldn't be invested in r. and b. star i don't know all the innovation as we'd rather we'd rather that we be a country where only people who are born into rich families go to go no no no no that is not what i wasn't born emerge from when i go to from boston university and carnegie mellon university yes i took off student loans but guess what i also hit
the books and also work part time i paid my way as well it wasn't just a student loan watching my ok does whoa and wore a big picture rubble right up to. the shoes. could you take three years for charges three. arrangement three. three. free. download free blog live video for your media project free medio don carty dot com.
back to the big picture rubble joining me marc harrold ben cohen and dutch martin let's get back to it a report was issued earlier this week revealing that women are increasingly becoming the breadwinners in their households while many are applauding the news there are of course those on the far right who are stuck back in the one thousand nine hundred eighteen hundred six hundred twelve hundreds i don't know and don't think women should be much more successful than men take a look at what erick erickson added say about the news. eric your thoughts on this on the study and and what cans lou i'm so used to liberals telling conservatives that they're anti science but in a way that this is the liberals who defend this and say it's not a bad thing are very anti science when you look at biology look at the natural world the roles of a a male and a female in society and other animals that the male typically is the dominant role the female it's not antithesis or it's not competing it's a complimentary role we as people of
a smart society have lost the ability to have complimentary. lucian chips in nuclear families that it's tearing us apart of that it would actually be interested in the survey is that three quarters of the people surveyed recognize that having mobs is the primary breadwinner is bad for kids and bad for marriages in reality shows is this the truth even fox so-called news is meghan kelly last eriksson's mind boggling really chauvinist or comments. thanks for being here thank you so i'll start with you eric what makes you dominant and me submissive and who died made you scientist in chief in this country and in the fifty's and sixty's there were huge huge numbers of people that believed that the children of interracial marriages were inferior were by and logically inferior and that is why it was illegal for blacks and whites to marry in some states in this country up until one nine hundred sixty seven i am base and with the science and it was fact if you were the child of a black father and a white mother or vice versa you are inferior and you are not going to set up for
success tell that to barack obama. so we know conservatives have been waging a war on women for a while now but it is the official belief of conservatives that women belong in the kitchen with aprons caring for their children while they're making sure tables dinners on the table for their husbands barefoot and pregnant right here earlier i said ok we four guys are going to discuss women i think it's been said what could go wrong or could possibly go over there was a huge market was going to i heard it and. she got the thing what those numbers basically portend is this it didn't say that at all it didn't say the forty percent of all women well they did but here's the thing you have to break those numbers down ok malarious of all households households that's correct but break those numbers down a roughly about twenty two to twenty three percent of those households involved married women who are in their husbands i don't have a problem with that but the line i'm sure of that number of that forty percent of women who are the primary households involves single mothers. single parent homes
where the women are not just the primary but they're the sole breadwinner so that begs the question over the years i mean what motivates what has motivated women over the past thirty forty fifty years since the women's movement to make the choice to have children and raise them alone that's the issue of husband had married. there is a difference between a single mother who single because of divorce her husband passed away or her husband abandon the family those women who make it in spite of those certain moments absence. i applaud when it comes to when it comes to women who have been i'm going to get in trouble for saying this but i'm going to say it when it comes to the modern woman who have been brainwashed by the film nazi movement to believe that i don't need a man ok they can raise their children by themselves well guess what you may not need a man but what your children need fathers bottom line. ok in trouble for that
yeah well. first of all i think that we can stipulate that having two parents is probably a good thing but as meghan kelly pointed out there is and she had a stack of she said here's the real science gay couples are doing just as well raising their kids as straight couples having two people raising a child is better than just having one generally speaking half this nation's kids come home to an empty house that's not a good thing just in general but setting that aside back to the original question what about all the sturm and drang coming mostly from men about the fact that women are breadwinners in their homes just it seems to me that this is very much like this goes back to the whole bronze age god all the gods you know had penises they were all men and it's just it's like what. it's seems to me that we're starting to wake up from some of this stuff i mean first of all i think it's pretty funny. quote science is an idiot he doesn't even understand every sherry biology. about
men have a dominant road in nature i mean first of all about a little boy yet so that's what will tell us what you know queen bee even if. you know it was pretty embarrassing very soon given a new job he was on his side for the most ball grew up a whole list of species where the female was is the dominant once a pheasant doesn't that he's talking about second of all where's it coming from where they come from of course he fit you know erickson and dogs for that they've you know they feel that they've being a musket i think by by the women's right movement and they you know they're threatened by a pretty clear mark this is my this is my theory tell me if i'm crazy on this men live shorter lives than women men are more i believe more emotionally fragile than women and and there's actually a fair amount of data to back that up more in secure than women could it be that and you look at societies that have had like thousands and thousands of years to
work this stuff out like the iroquois confederacy been here ten thousand years they figured this stuff out four out of the five year did not allow men to vote only women could vote. they kind of figured out who was who does a better job of running things the majority of prisoners are men the majority of criminals are men the majority of wars are started by women in their fought by men i mean is and in those countries where you have large percentages like norway and iceland of women in parliament you tend to have more functional countries that don't get into trouble economically politically warlike could it be that what's going on is that we've got seven thousand years of massaging in male domination because men are basically insecure weak the weaker sex and they're dominating women out of that fear. but i think some of this is reactive i mean what he said doesn't make any sense to me the one thing you know i look at it it's interesting that who brings home it still in this day and age the where there's various roles people play various roles the two parents and hopefully two parents and this idea that
whoever brings home the money is. is dominant and that's what makes you dominant in that that's what i see here we're talking about the breadwinner we equate who brings home more of the money is being the dominant person relationship i'm not one hundred percent that that's always across the board going to be true there may be a situation where the woman brings home more money but she's still not the dominant one of the relationship vice versa or vice versa this to me is information it's a study it came out people really make a lot of it of course you know religious organizations private organizations people the best thing here is that people can react to it i hope it spurs other articles so it's you know to test the boundaries of this dialogue i don't think you're completely nuts on that i think there's no way everything ebbs and flows and certainly what you describe is a long history of a male dominated society and i think we do see reactions to that but i'm interested in the fact that dominance here is sort of equated with who is the breadwinner and i'm not sure that's always true just for anybody who wants to follow you know to chase down this rabbit hole and if any you guys are fascinated by it. try to mind wonder shlain has now passed a law passed away but he wrote a book called the alphabet versus the goddess in which he documented there's about
a three hundred year period europe where mary was worshipped far more than jesus it was the huge mary called and and then literacy came along and they started burning women at the stake and hanging them and massage reappeared it's just a fascinating look at the stuff in a larger context but it goes way beyond this conversation but the book is called the outdoors is the goddess i think it's still in print it's really a great read food stamps earlier this month the republican controlled house agriculture and lunch line is a neuroscientist she was a brain surgeon actually really good earlier this month the republican controlled house agriculture committee approved probably twenty this is the republican controlled house agriculture committee approved probably twenty and a half a billion dollars in cuts over the next year or two snaps up with one on nutrition program over the next ten years this is the food stamp program basically the senate wants to cut four billion i think and then the democrats are only going along with
that because they need to do that to get republican votes this. this seems crazy to me yet congressman steven venture the republican from tennessee who made over three million bucks three point four million dollars in farm subsidies saying that people which is coming out of the same farm bill saying the people on food stamps are stealing from the rest of us i mean is it really stealing to take money from hungry children i don't know about you have to look at this in the proper context granted this economic recession not a lot of people on their backs so it is understandable that people who are normally earning a living basically got the rocks now stuff from under them as a result of this recession and it's understandable that many had to seek public assistance in order to basically you know keep the lights on keep roof over their heads etc etc i totally get that ok amy and every humane society should have a safety net to take care of those who are for whatever reason unable to take care of them because one of the safety of this rug because there is a big difference between a safety net and a way of life ok the fact of the matter is yes our economy is slowly but surely
recovering but when you when you're eating too much of the government changes to our addictive cancer of the dollar ninety cents yes personal to the. dollar and i didn't see very very typical right wing smear tactics used against the poor i don't know the specific dates in america bottom aware of what's happening in england about welfare abuse there's a whole big thing with the conservative government about those of us in the world let's throw in the welfare queen let's find the welfare queens and actually study over the last forty years showed well for abuses that historic low in britain right even though it was at the forefront of the government's agenda they were talking about well for abuse all the time did they talk about banking abuses they talk about corporate welfare abuse no they don't talk about these things right it's always you targeted poor people who are minorities and you claim that they're the problem there is a way of life these people these people want to be very good at and say there was a problem i didn't i didn't say they were the they were they were they were the
problem the problem is this when you're so. deuced bad government handouts that's what happened seductive of. ok here's the thing ok i'm going to use myself as an example all right i tried to start a business a few years ago ok out west it didn't work out the recession was very very bad i couldn't find a job to save my life ok the option was for me to apply for welfare and food stamps ok i came this close to doing it some say i should have done it because i had a wife and we had just had a son ok we had a newborn child but you know what in the back of my mind i said no i can't do it you know why is long as i am an able bodied person who is still living and breathing is long as i can go out there and work a job i am going to do everything i can to find a job to put food on the table for my family i personally do not want the government to take care of me that i knew or is for yourself are enough to make it through two different colleges i mean you know not everybody is it's not about a college education ok it's about a work ethic personal responsibility like i said if you've been knocked down by
this recession and many people have got it maybe have a tip or are just trying to measure to get back on your feet i'm all for that i got that i want to get mark in here because i'm guessing that you're opposed to stephen fincher getting his three million dollars in welfare as much as you are for kids getting their food stamps well there it is there is there is fraud it's not as high as reported sometimes you know this is a much bigger question but yeah i have a good when you talk about how much this is going to get cut it's only because it's ballooned so far and the ballooning of it's the fault of both parties it's because of the farm access to two thousand to two thousand and eight it got so large that we talk about cutting it you know it's already such a thing to do i think the economy did have to do with the numbers of people on the rolls of course are carol ben cohen dutch martin thank you all for joining you going up stories in the arab world are all over the news but how much do americans really know about the people behind the headlines ask professor shibley telhami into nights conversations with.
children from war financial system have a special faith that's how important. i am just mama. the child should live in an orphanage for a long child should be raised in a family with the during these years only go eleven children have been returned by adoptive families. of the one thousand eight percent of the children from zero or more from each place to be found. on the child has brought us so much happiness. show me. let me let me respond or don't let me ask you a question. i missed that morning is what we're having the break we have our knives
of the. joining me for tonight's conversations with great minds is professor shibley telhami me is the anwar sadat professor for peace and development at the university of maryland and a senior fellow at the sub on. center at the brookings institution we're now an expert on the arab world he has previously served as the advisor to the u.s. mission to the u.n. and on the board of directors for human rights watch his new book the world through arab arab public opinion and the reshaping of the middle east is essential reading for anyone who wants to understand the middle east during this period of political upheaval and social change professor thanks for joining us my pleasure it's an honor to have you with us. first of all let's talk about you what what provoked you to write this book well it's interesting because you know just two weeks ago
we lost my mentor one friend professor at berkeley by the name of kenneth waltz he was one of the the giants in the field of international relations but he was known for the realism for power politics of focus on the states so it's not natural for a scholar coming out of that school initially to be studying public opinion but i could tell you how it got there it was really one thousand nine hundred i mean very specifically just before iraq invaded kuwait and i had taken a break from the university through the council of foreign relations to advise them congressman lee hamilton who chaired the house subcommittee on europe in the middle east and this is the time when the cold war was ending and i went to the middle east in the spring to write a report on how the end of the cold war was luck live influence regional politics. on that trip i made
a stop in baghdad just exactly two months before iraq invaded kuwait my hostess was then ambassador. april glaspie who obviously became part of the history related to the story she took we were there that evening to the house of the talian ambassador in baghdad because it was italy's national day and there we learned that yasser arafat's the palestinian leader with whom the u.s. was not communicating at that time was still in baghdad and she suggested that i meet him because i'm up obligated to adhere to official policy of the united states and she thought he might want to send a message to washington i may want to convey to him how washington feels the meeting was arranged next day it was a long meeting it was interesting you know it was about their relationship but one thing that really stuck with me was arafat's interpretation of arab public opinion that it was important he thought saddam hussein was popular he thought broad
american leaders will weak and in fact i even wrote ultimately an article following the war saying that saddam hussein actually misinterpreted not american intentions but he thought that our public opinion would prevent the saudis from allowing american troops on saudi soil and therefore the u.s. would feel it didn't happen and the saudis stayed and so after that i scratch my head and said well here's a case we're certainly rulers behaved as though public opinion was important we had a case of the saudis going apparently against the public opinion but prevailing we had a case of the king of jordan who was a close ally of the united states for same going against the u.s. because he was fearful of public opinion and i asked myself what's going on here and from then on i undertook a project to study public opinion particularly as the media revolution expanded
with the advent of a just so i designed a poll. over a ten year period where i feel you know we didn't have many poles we were just sort of guessing what public opinion was so i didn't write asking leaders asking leaders asking elites asking journalists asking so i was sure that's an important segment of society but then tell you about mass public opinion so that was one of the reasons i wanted to do it is the wrong maybe i wasn't getting it right and so what i thought i would do is as the information revolution has expanded and public opinion was likely to become more important and governments have less control over public opinion then we really need to follow year by year to figure out how this information revolution is influencing public opinion what is public opinion and even more importantly in a centrally how people define themselves as a changing their view of themselves of the first arab first muslim first gyptian
first game in all of that was bound to be affected by this information revolution and that's what this book is about and it's and it's brilliant in and you talk about polls that you've commissioned in here and also your own on the ground experience where you were writing about being in in as of libya during the during the live in one could argue was true i wasn't a leader of what i did in libya i think you're right about getting the information about libya what i was i went to other places while the libyan revolution is under way as easy as egypt tunisia in egypt to tunisia and egypt during that time but i did also document beyond you know the public opinion polls the conversations that were ongoing not only in my interviews but the electronic conversations about how people were seeing the crisis and how they were interpreted your as ever close eight things about gadhafi there were people got it wrong and you know the reasons why he actually had to go and at its absolute look let's take some of the larger
things here first of all. in in many americans minds were were whoa whoa. awfully inadequately. wise about that region of the world most americans conflate arab and muslim first of all they don't even realize that iranians don't and don't consider themselves arabs or aren't arabs or they're persian sort of rightly or so and and and that there are many arabs are of the world you know asia and in the americas there's. so can you talk a little bit about the arab identity and the muslim identity particular in that region of the world you know with which dominate it with what's what's important for us to know it's really a big question because you know i know we use this term the muslim world one point two one point five billion muslims around the world there are a lot of muslims around the world obviously but it's not a world and they're different and they're different cultures and different
languages and different geography and so forth and most arabs as you pointed out most muslims as you pointed out there are roughly three hundred fifty million arabs now one of the things about that one thing that binds them beyond a common history and beyond the institution of the arab league which is modest by the way is the language and language as you know is central it's central and buying people together even politically and certainly in the era of the information revolution when edges erase broadcasting is broadcasting an object and people are sharing that information so what is happened you know this is one of things we sought to study over the past decade are people defining themselves more as arab or more as muslim or more as a gyptian is or do do is now there was no question that what happened over the decade among the arab people is their affiliation with the state as we can they were more likely to say i'm muslim first on our first than they were likely to
say i'm a jordanian first or saudi first. there's a variation from cunt. the country but they are arab and most likely when you focus on their issues when you ask them what are their issues what are the what is it that they follow most what one of the priorities they focus mostly on arab issues yes they care about what's happening in pakistan it's a muslim country yes they care about what's happening in afghanistan or turkey or iran but above all they care about what's happening in baghdad in syria and palestine particularly so they focus on our beaches but here's one thing about the islamic character if you look over the decade you would say that islamic identification has increased most over the decade and there's a good question as to why did that happen in part you can argue it is that islamic groups were the only ones who had grassroots support in an era when governments you
know blocked political at the evangel had advantages for sure the evangelists i mean they had people out saying yes we're people i'm not easy in promoting tunisia but there are. there are muslims promoting this law before sure but they also had the organizations more important is the last i mean you know governments could have caused the loss they could cause a political party but they can't close the mosque so that's a big asset but there's another reason i think why islam grew over the beyond the information revolution and transnational issues i happen to believe the two somebody else's words that you are what you have to defend you are what you have to defend and in some ways if you look at that decade and we've see that in the polls . arabs and muslims probably felt that is slim itself was under assault and sometimes when they identify themselves as a muslim there it's not necessarily saying i'm religious not even necessarily
saying i believe in political it's them they're saying i don't have to apologize for who they are i don't have to apologize for the fact i'm a muslim. and they were responding in some way so it's a it's a feature of the decade in addition to obviously the gorn was long the groups which which was sign of things by i get in these conversations with neo conservatives. more on my radio show where you know they go through all these you know we've got to bomb them they hate us because of our values and you wrote about that i want to get to that but but and all and i'll say well and this was back during the bush administration what would you say if canada looked at us and said you know george bush is gauging a war crimes and he's lied us into a war only he's a terrible president let's invade the united states event him and dick cheney from office will put our guy in the white house what do you think the average american would do even even liberals who hate george bush and that moment the penny drops you know and they suddenly go well even liberals who hate george bush would
probably be out in the streets shooting canadians and yet they never make that association with the united states dropping bombs all over the middle east or am i just completely outside the no i think we you know one of the things that we've studied again over over the whole decade you know as you know the the book is really looks at a number of things not just identity in the media but it looks at attitude to what the u.s. attitudes toward iran but particularly when you look about out of used to with the u.s. it's very clear it's not about values it's about policies and what i mean what do i mean by that they are people there is a clash of values among some minorities undoubtedly you've got fanatics in the arab world the muslim world people who don't want democracy or people who are ideological just as we do i mean there's no question and they were reinforcing each other in this clash of civilization faeces they both had a stake in it but most people when they resent the paul power they're looking at policies and very specifically they're easy to identify most of all they were
frustrated with the issue that i call the prism of. saying that the israel of the palestinian israeli conflict which is i think the prism through which i see the world more than any other. those two were the big issues of the decade that framed their attitudes let's let's dig into both of those a little bit deeper right after the break if we can more of tonight's conversations with great minds with professor shibley after the break. download the official. language stream quality and enjoy your favorite. if you're away from your television just doesn't matter now
it was the magic conversations with great minds i'm speaking with professor shibley telhami the anwar sadat professor for peace and development of the university of maryland and the author of the new book the world through arab eyes arab public opinion and the reshaping of the middle east professor. the the you mentioned as we were going into those last break through the prism of pain in particular the arab israeli conflict. what is the what is the state of the perspective of the arab world and what are your thoughts i think this is one of the least understood issues despite the fact that it's always center stage in our discourse and the reason for it is that when you look at if you if you're an egyptian and you wake up in the morning you don't think policy is really you don't think america actually or russia or what you think is i want to put food on the table i want my my kids to grow up you know happy i want you know their you
think about jobs you think about dinner you think about life as everyone else but the central. issues underestimated because what it is it is what i call the prism through which arabs you the world it is part of their core identity it's not even about the palestinians as such why because it is representative of core sense of humiliation particularly in relationship to the outside world from the inception of the political system after world war one and even their dislike of the rulers they disliked the rulers because they were authoritarian and dictators who was doing israel israel know the rulers of the governments they dislike the government we live in the arab. dictatorships of course they do you know who like to ships and obviously everybody wanted to have control over their lives they don't they had a humiliating relationship between them and their government but they also despised
their government because the governments were seen to be subservient to the outside world because their governments were seen to project policies that went against the very interests and we see in fact over the decade that preceded the arab uprising if there was more anger it wasn't because there were fewer jobs there were fewer jobs there were. angry over that but the added value over the decade came from the information revolution that gave them more information and gave them more instruments through of wool and from the anger that came with a humiliating humiliating decade starting off with the collapse of israeli policy in negotiations in two thousand. the violence that ensued between the two then the tried our own tragedy of nine eleven and how america responded the war on terrorism the afghan war but particularly the iraq war the two thousand and six war between israel and lebanon in the two thousand and eight war between israel and and and how
massive and they see the governments on the able to stop it do anything about it or even worse many of them were seen to be collaborating with the enemies of their interest so that made them more angry with the government and they were already angry with the governments that made them or. is the solution to that. resolving the you know i've heard so many people say it's all simply say we could resolve the palestinian or the student israeli palestinian issue we would you know take the center of the boil out or you know pick your metaphor and take the cancer out i happen to believe that from at least from the american point of view but really from the international point of view this feature of the arab israeli conflict is such a complicated feature that puts the arab world and the u.s. in constant challenging the relationship with the palestinian through the policy israeli conflict now if that's resolved of course things will be wonderful in the sense that you know one america doesn't have
a pasta israel conflict and they're angry with the u.s. and some parts of asia but the intensity of their anger to the point of wanting to do something about it is certainly would be reduced so this is something that at the very least should be at the top of the policy agenda for the united states and pretty much every other country in the world that might have any influence in that region there. and in fact you know if you asked last week when when secretary kerry was visiting the region he was asked why you focus on this issue you've got all these other things you know why you do in this particular issue said everywhere i go around the world when i go foreign leaders tell me why aren't you doing more on this issue because it's a global issue it's beyond even the american strategic interests remarkable the the arab spring right the the the arab spring isn't quite what we all thought of this what is your analysis of the so-called arab spring i don't recall that the arab spring i've called it the arab awakening or the arab uprisings and the here and
here is why it's not a value judgement what is the you have to ask yourself what is the most. important feature of the recent wave of uprising unprecedented in the history of the modern arab world and i would say it is about public empowerment on a scale we had never witnessed before as a function of the information revolution which focused attention of the power of the individual to do something directly both in terms of choice of information and in terms of ability to communicate with someone else without the government preventing it from happening as happened in the in the lead up to the to the revolt and so that this public of our much you know we talk about historically when you look back at what happened in europe people talk about the industrial revolution what did that do there was a complete change in the political economy were gaining wages gave power to the individual moved toward more individual power in democracy and that really is the
genesis of what happened politically in europe over the years what we're seeing in the arab world of course the economy still matters and economic empowerment still matters but we're seeing with the information revolution it's having an impact of its own that is leading to this empowerment i was in saudi arabia and. for you went to a women's college and director of the college said to me that young women who are coming from very sheltered private homes one of the first thing they teach them is how to do research on the internet they'll learn to tweet before the end of the year and they start tweeting asking questions why aren't we getting a share of the pie and so this is this is this dynamic of empowerment is with us to stay there's no going back because the information revolution is only going to expand now this doesn't mean however that the outcome is predictable because all it means is that we have a new major factor in politics it's the beginning of
a new politics not the end of politics and politics was never even in democracies only about the voice of individuals or public opinion it is about you know there are institutions there are militaries there are. rich and poor that have a say in what happens their corporations their people their governments there are all kinds of entities that are going to still weigh in and when you say about people empowerment people aren't all the same so you going to have the empowerment of the left and the empowerment of the right the empowerment of the radical empower the moderate the bomb of the religious and they have power over the secular and the more diverse society is as we're witnessing in syria the more unpredictable doubt on this wall and it seems that with this technology that you're talking about there are three we could define them either as hardware or software as both i mean you have television and al-jazeera and you write about your al-jazeera in the impact of
it then you go telephones and twitter and facebook that people have on their smartphones and facebook's. smartphones i phones and then you've got the internet and the ability of people to access information the world wide web what is the relative importance of each of the three of those in the in the arab world you know this is interesting because. if you asked ten years ago or even just five years ago as i did you know what is your main source of news by far television was the main source of over ninety percent of you know something and ninety five percent say television and of those by the way nearly half say a just zero is their first choice for news so it's really dominant despite the market but what has happened over the past three years alone. is that a larger share of the public says they're getting their new their first source of news the internet we have we particularly among the young in some segments of the public up to thirty percent rapid change in fact i see that the biggest threat to
others here is not competing television stations and what they have to worry about is this rise of the internet as an important source of news and there are understanding that actually they're putting a lot of money into their internet site into their own so anyway it's you know some some of it we already see here in my in my own classes that i teach at university of maryland when i asked students what's your main source of news most of them say the internet already here and that's already happening in their old world we just have three minutes left which is nowhere near enough to really talk about syria but i'd like to at least get into it. world war one began because our stew ferdinand was assassinated in syria a vote and all the countries had interlocking agreements with each other so that you attack my country so i go and then it just i mean to this day people are still sitting around trying to figure out why did world war want to happen beyond that. it seems to me between the various alliances you know the united states and you've
got israel involved you get russia involved you've got hezbollah has has gotten into the all these all these actors that are in many ways using syria's proxy for other things that syria could be an archduke ferdinand moment it could be one of those things that just causes it all to start coming unraveled am i being alarmist . i think of course it has the potential expanding there's no question about that whether you know it leading to war that i don't see that but i see it expanding but the point that you made the central point is that what happened in syria started as just like any other revolt against a big author a tearing of them and it was a real you know attempt that revolution but by now what happened is you've got all of the elements with sectarianism syria's society but more damaging is the intervention of so many outside players who have a stake in what happened in syria and and then in addition to that the refugee
problem that is spilling out into. the neighborhood countries particularly lebanon jordan and turkey that's bound to influence the politics of those countries and with so much at stake and russia seeming to want to make its return you know from being sort of dormant in the post cold war into a player i don't want to say we turn to the old war i think it's bigger than syria for it is that they want to assert themselves and they don't want the u.s. to russia was particularly frustrated with how the libya issue was handled russia and china both felt that you know libya was that they were deceived on libya that this was a much more thought to be much more modest intervention into being big they were going to allow that to happen in syria they're making a stand so i don't think either russia or the u.s. wants a conflict to come out of it it's is
a test of wills for sure and they will you know give and take i don't think the game is as you are some for them its side game in syria itself is almost zero but they have bigger fish to fry and both by the way are worried about one outcome particular and that is that radical islamists end up being the dominant force. in in syria you want to go there it's a problem here with nine eleven or with russia with chechnya exactly the russians particularly a word about it but washington is worried about repeating what happened in afghanistan or where you helped them to get rid of a development in the you end up with al qaida professor thank you so much for being with us tonight my pleasure appreciate it professor shibley thank you see this in other conversations the great minds go to our website conversations with great minds. and that's the way it is tonight friday may thirty first two thousand and thirteen don't forget democracy begins you get out there get active your.
children from war financial system a special faith that's how important. this mom and. the child should live in the north french for a long child should be raised in a family with the during these years only go eleven children have been returned by adoptive families. ninety eight percent of the children from zero or more from each place to the silence. of the child has brought us so much happiness.
good afternoon to welcome to prime interest i'm perry and boring here and washington d.c. let's get to our headline. demarco opinion friday made headlines back in september of two thousand and eleven when he got the f h f a to sue a seventeen banks and broker. transgression they were bilking the taxpayer well they recently settled with citi group but they've declined to tell a federal judge much less to taxpayers how much the settlement is worth or any other details for that matter bloomberg inquired as to why it was told that the f h f a might never disclose that's her well i guess we'll have to see if mel watt bring some transparency to the agency when demarco leaves but we're really not holding our breath on that and the jobless rates and seventeen.