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tv   The Big Picture With Thom Hartmann  RT  June 14, 2013 10:00pm-11:01pm EDT

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longtime are going to washington d.c. and here's what's coming up tonight on the big picture. the n.s.a. is claiming that its domestic spying programs have helped to stop multiple terrorist attacks in the united states but if s. true why aren't n.s.a. officials and dish you know the details at least to the lawmakers on capitol hill that and more into nights big picture rumble and our addiction to cell phones tablets and other high tech gadgets has caused us to start living for the moment and to lose our sense of a past and future better adapt to a high tech world and strike a balance between living in the now and living with a past and future.
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revelations continue to surface regarding edward snowden and the extent of the n.s.a.'s domestic spying programs more and more americans are asking themselves why they should care about the n.s.a. domestic spying programs if they have nothing to hide and as we told you last night daily take that kind of blahs a attitude toward a government spying on its citizens can have very serious consequences for a democracy namely to end both political activism and dissent in a society and while that should be reason enough for people to start caring about domestic spying there are a number of other reasons why all americans should care about the n.s.a. and government surveillance that's not court regulated as required by the fourth amendment sean wintel science world report has compiled a great list of reasons why every single american should care about domestic spying
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and n.s.a. programs like prism first and foremost the mass surveillance of americans in the collection of day. u.s. citizens both serve both serve to topple the very foundation of the american legal system the presumption of innocence as are intel points out if there is a normalization in the public consciousness that there is a weakened presumption of innocence we have compromised the effectiveness of our legal system next mass surveillance programs like the n.s.a.'s prism take away our right to personal data control otherwise known as informational self-determination and other words we as american citizens have the right to decide what information about ourselves we want to share with the rest of the world for example as are intel notes we use curtains on windows and envelopes with letters we mail because we don't want the rest of the world to see what we're sending to a friend or family member or at least we want to be able to make the choice not because we have something to hide but because we like to choose what we will and
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won't show the world and when likewise in the digital world we have e-mail passwords and usernames in the belief that only we can see what we're sending across the world wide web violate americans need to care about domestic spying because if we allow security organizations like the n.s.a. to have expanded powers and capabilities with out the oversight of a government of we the people these security organizations ultimately end up with absolute power leaving that government and you and me with very little power and the democratic republic the greatest power should always rest with to quote jefferson the people themselves so enough of this frankly ignorant attitude of if it doesn't affect me why should i care if we don't start caring right now about a national security state spying upon us and the fate of our democracy society and culture are all in grave peril.
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it's friday are you ready to rumble join me for tonight's big picture rumble our marc harrold. libertarian commentator attorney and author ben cohen editor of the daily banter and founder of banter media group and chris allman conservative commentator and activist and welcome all back to all the great to have you all here with us let's let's start with the n.s.a. i'm getting a whole variety of different and very interesting feedbacks all week long from from libertarians from conservatives republicans and democrats you know. everybody it seems like we can we can slice this down to a couple of things couple of issues number one should our government be gathering all this quote method data on a cd if they're not listening to the details of our phone calls if they know if if an agency knows that somebody went to their doctor and then they called nine colleges and then they call the pharmacist you know you can or you know fill in the blank you know they they they called this political group in that political group
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and you know that you can you can pretty much figure out what people are up to in fact you can more easily do it with meditated than just listening to a phone call this is arguably more intrusive than actually listening to phone calls is this a good thing or a bad thing chris well i think. you know this is one of those rare times tom that we're going to agree but the lack of oversight with this data collection it does is very concerning that you know all this information on us without oversight can be misused by the government and that's why. a lot of conservatives are worried about the government just amassing all this data on citizens now liberals are too yeah we do need of course to be able to listen in on some of the known terrorists we do need to have court oversight but just blanket everybody yes i mean they all know i'm writing this nation can say we're not doing it but they're not going to be
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you know the administration forever and who knows who we're going to get next and who knows what they're going to do with it and god forbid another richard nixon comes along and one of us decides to become politically active on the tea party or for occupy and that nixon administration shows up and says you know six years ago you had this phone call you know with this with this lady or with this drug dealer or with this a political person who turned out later to be you know or whatever you know and we're we're prepared to you know smear you with this i mean is this is scary stuff it's pretty worrying do you think it's pretty funny that you know the republicans are coming out and blow snowballed of this when this unprecedented expansion under the bush administration these guys presided over a huge expansion of the security state so i say no to condemn what's going on in the barbershop but if there is a lot of progress you know way isn't it kind of a good moment though i mean yes bush in two thousand and one put an end to even going to courts asking for you know warrants and obama to his credit at least put
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that back into place although the pfizer courts are impotent anyway but this isn't the sort of a nixon going to china thing i mean if there was a republican president it probably would be more more partisan and i think it's actually a good thing that the republicans are that we have a democratic president as cross it's all bringing in republicans and democrats together in a way where they're not a do you think you should be report there were some some things that. i see it is not being quite accurate about the reporting going on what the n.s.a. are able to do but i think it's very crucial that we get the story exactly what wall they. able to do what have they been doing and how do we go about road because they could be is i mean you know for example with. as much respect for things we were they were all i think they were also because slight exaggerations in the report about what they were able to do which is not to say that what they're doing is good but it's not entirely accurate like direct access to all of this guy was claiming that he had direct access to it and i wanted to be administrator and so
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yeah it's really a whole nother thing mark here thought so this is a moment in time look this idea that it doesn't affect me i don't have anything to hide that is one of the things that tyrants and in general of always counted on this idea that it's great that you know men don't think this sort of thing this also is a real part of the fourth amendment that's missing you know searches and seizures the what the fourth amendment is about historically and even now come down to usually next better an intrusion on an expectation of privacy or some kind of physical trespass the problem here is a lot of the surveillance and data mining don't do that what we need to do is add surveillance of the text of the fourth amendment move forward and have a reasonable innocent oversight standard court control of what they're doing in surveillance implicit in the fourth amendment and your purse in your purse and papers and there is but the applicability is really not there for the test that exists right now in the in the past has sort of made a comeback in the jones case but but but no look up look back at the early nineteenth century the u.s. mail was considered to be part of your papers your political paper absolutely so we deal with i mean when you open the mail there's a physical intrusion it's an intrusion into an expectation of privacy under that
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taste test just watching you in public if the police were just following you around wouldn't have been covered so this idea you might not have the same protections when it's general surveillance of people in public and data mining without substance i think if you add surveillance to the fourth amendment it helps to address some of these problems going forward there's a big this is a moment in time one thing i think we all agree on is transparency and government oversight they need individualized suspicion it's not what they're doing and if there's a they have a good probable cause reasonable suspicion of course the government needs to investigate you know we all want to block his advice is blanket idea that they can just collected as they go and then when they find something move forward that's backwards they need to. grout have some individualized suspicion and then move forward with these techniques you know absolutely you know. climate terrorists this this i find mind boggling speaking of the over use of of the word terrorist or even the powers as you know the patriot act changed american jurisprudence to change the way our law works so that if you attach the word
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terrorist to a person they actually lose a whole bunch of rights that they would still have if you attach the world the word drug dealer or criminal or you know car jacker or whatever and now according to documents obtained by bold nebraska trans canada which is the canadian corporation behind the keystone x.l. pipeline has worked with the f.b.i. in the d.h.s.s. in a fusion center nebraska to label nonviolent environmental activists as candidates for terrorism charges and other criminal offenses in the language and some of the documents is so vague that it could also label journalists researchers and academics as terrorists and criminals trans canada is also build a database this is a corporation building a database of names photos of specific individuals involved in organizing is the pipeline and. here we are i mean you know now this isn't. i
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don't have a problem with amazon dot com getting everything they can figure out about me so that they can send me a better product i if i may to choose to opt out by using a privacy browser or whatever amazon dot com does not have the power to come in put a gun to my head like a government does trans canada is a private corporation they don't have that power but by gathering information in a way like this and working with the f.b.i. they are working with that power i'm serious on like a libertarian i realize but mark your thought so well that definitely you know what i think the good thing is on these issues i think a lot of people do think libertarian they know for the best democracy. if any government can get in there and really label you or get this information they can slowly they stifle dissent so is this a dangerous thing absolutely it's a dangerous thing when you control the vocabulary you control the dialogue and sometimes you control the issue and if you can just call people terrorist and that gets you halfway down the field to where you want to go that's a pretty easy for the government in terms of the abuse of the definition of terrorism terrorism is a voyage not to fall into a terror used for
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a specific purpose for to create fear amongst the public know how i don't see how a nonviolent protest does any of that. this is aside from the from the civil liberties aspects of this that is that you but it comes out of the definition of terrorism which is being quite seriously abused over the last you know ten yeah the last decade this is incredibly worried that you can label nonviolent environmental activists as terrorists is the trouble you the transnational corporations working with their f.b.i. to spy on americans you know what i find really is there were a lot of call disorders is that is that the left is now all up in arms but ten fifteen twenty years ago when grandma praying outside of an abortion clinic she was labeled a terrorist they tried to use rico against pro-life protesters hey when they call i . don't know i'm not is not a legitimate pro-life community absolutely is against anyone killing a couple let's start with and let's stipulate to the boy is that what it's about
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what he has to do is that peaceful pro-life demonstrator is a. whole we all this was when i was there was a transnational corporations get but more. after the break. when you take three. three. three three. three. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects and free media and on to our t.v. dot com. welcome to the. science technology innovation all the latest m l m inst from around russia we've got the future covered.
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i would rather ask questions for people in positions of power instead of saying on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on r.t. question more.
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on the back of the big picture rubble joining me tonight marc harrold ben cohen and chris allman let's get back to it yesterday a chemical plant in guy's mar louisiana exploded killing one person and injuring seventy three others it turned out that plant had not been inspected by osha occupational safety health administration in over two decades meanwhile the facilities at the workplace fatality rate in the state of louisiana is nearly two
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times higher than the national average not a lot of regulation down there the explosion comes just months after that one in in west texas that killed fifteen people injured over sixteen six killed sixteen. excuse me killed fifteen injured one hundred sixty and they hadn't been inspected in twenty years oceans affections now on average are happening every ninety nine years it wasn't this way back before reaganomics but you know now with budget cuts you know the ocean has to cut their budget by eight point two percent what's more important field republican austerity budget cuts are the wives and well being of americans. i'm really interested to see how these caused all of this was as really really fast and well i mean i think what you're forgetting here is a very key thing in that we had thirteen years of democratic administrations i didn't do any. inspections and eight years of republican so why i agree with you we've had reaganomics for thirty two years pretty much without interruption but
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there has not been and there is not been a progressive democrat as a president since jimmy carter is this a case for more regulation or less regulation you know what i think it is i think it's a case where when you have the government trying to do too many things they can't even do their core functions well in this this is what happens when government gets too big that it ends up doing nothing very well the blessing of this is not a example of the old president you know this is if you give an example of the exact opposite with governments being rolled by. for the last thirty years lack of regulation lack of funding i don't think how we've been leagues are on the front of us an example for four overreach of government is that if you have osha trying to to go in and inspect dangerous work places like this chemical plant versus is going in and inspecting some mom and pop store and saying you know what you're not offering your employee an ergonomic chair then the government has too many places too in a shack so they should increase regulation and elevation focus on the truly dangerous
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businesses and not try to you know he was for you all of you for government. where they can really she would have sort of that they are prioritizing like that and i think we all are going to be prioritizing when does anywhere that you have been in . to get a chemical plant this particular chemical is there's thousands of them around the united states there's not that many oceans and i sort of i have a quote we're going to market i promise of christmas argument is that inspections actually a good thing by the government and that would argue that one of the flaws of capitalism is that because the first value is making money rather than preserving the lives of workers there has to be government. participating in that marketplace to regulate that capitalism is doesn't that contradict your libertarian flaws i don't think it contradicts that i mean i completely agree part of the problem here is let's say you could but you have the absolutely regulation absolutely stifles the economy it absolutely stifles the economy it's very hard to start a small business your red tape the red tape let's just take this specific thing
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here and i completely agree with chris if there are very few things that the government should do and let's say let's say for argument's sake that safety is one of the new site safety inspections we wouldn't have if we had a smaller budget a more streamlined budget and focused budget on the very few things the government should be doing and they stopped doing all the things they shouldn't be doing it would have been ninety nine years or twenty years ago when what regulation unto itself is bad for business whatever it comes to when you see these come up in budgets why should we increase more for things like this for regulation libertarians republicans and said no this cut it this cut it when i said now for all to say i don't have all of this of the same for you. all for the both of you aside without something they should regulate before we get things done this is this is bad business for this factory they will do the marketplace this is bad business they will not want this to happen again it's a p.r. nightmare they will not create their own story is that demonstrates that the problem with that libertarian perspective is that you don't solve problems until somebody dies and why not instead want to vent somebody had it because you're assuming that because this happened here we can show that there were osha
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regulations in all the other places where there are i'm assuming there also not many inspections because they're ninety nine years or twenty years there's the majority of these five that's not happening at these plants or we would hear about it so what happens is when you're saying you have to wait till something bad happens. we're focusing the problem because something bad happened but overall the regulations are hurting this industry and i don't know that much about this particular industry regulation stifle capitalism they stifle our economy right now and over regulation that's like saying that the rule book the n.f.l. rule books football do you talk about the have how can you have what is in this without a set of rules for how business modes are and most because abortion operates with its own rules or your market always telling the rules with a market no markets are created by governments and to condition yes and absolutely they are very much reduced the laws they produce the courts and they produce the current some how many read their referee to have them go noble i don't know how many business how many industries were regulated by the government in terms of being protected by a bike by taxpayers every pretty much every industry every success was united
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states was built through government protection and tariffs and making sure the other companies abroad couldn't believe government has after they've picked winners they from zero to the winners they want other people gone out of business the employee the government game you're assuming that these goodly wouldn't grown on their own wouldn't we have no idea that what they got on that would have happened even the companies that wanted to hire twelve year olds have gone out of business because they're not allowed to have child labor what child labor laws are very specific subset of the regulation would have collapsed if it wasn't for the government i mean you've got this is and those you collapse when the government got out of the way because of phil gramm you have is picking winners and losers why do airlines go to bankruptcy and why do car companies get bailed out because of the way car companies look right now because the u.a.w. got bailed out not the car companies cover that we've heard about a billion dollar you didn't have any problem government will bail out b.m.w. they didn't go bail out in support of tennessee they didn't go what toyota they wouldn't build the u.a.w. out why did the airlines going to because they're not cleared by the isn't talking
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that's why it went up so we didn't bail out a german corporation that otherwise was doing fine we didn't bail out of but the reach of the we pick the winners and losers there's also a lot of union people were those airlines but the u.a.w. the teacher we need is knowledge and we need intelligent is that we never should. down there to your country no i mean all right my pay several billion people in their jobs no you're not going to bankruptcy reorganize it's not screwing there wasn't a bankruptcy here and they're not going out saying they did what i say every twenty years we build chrysler out it's a pattern it's something we do every want to do with my code and we did it again people need help sometimes companies need help companies go bankrupt but people who study these are people's lawyers you call dispute you've got an industry you destroy a town you destroy a city you could detroit detroit is a complete it's a ghost town house don't have a bailout it's about to go under now it's about to go back into bankruptcy it had to solve the thing are you saying it is ticklish what is detroit the success story now for you know actually john cases bragging about how is the success story for the bailout and he's the republican governor of ohio you know there's many auto workers in ohio is there outright but any of this is this today today is the six
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month anniversary of the newtown shootings in connecticut and the n.r.a. has released a new ad attacking joe mansion for all those dead all joe mansions laws suggested and by the way. pat toomey the republican you know was his collaborator in this and all this law would have said is that the same rules that everybody likes and sets all the gun owners of america that apply to background checks if you walk into a gun store will apply to a gun show if you walk into it well not just private sales their laws have to be at least seventy five vendors for constitute a gun show so if it's just you and me or even ten or twenty of you and me it doesn't count seventy five betters so here's the. remember this. i'm your man. you're seven you're all protect our second amendment
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rights that was a commitment but now manchin is working with president obama mayor michael. and reject. the national right. sounds to me like wayne la pierre's gone off the off the rails here anybody want to . i'm good sport i was racing from the from the overreaction to sleep he did i don't know that he still will in the next go around you know let me in sandy hook why do some one hurt my knee with what they proposed afterwards was already illegal under connecticut law what in today's eleventh and twelfth of june this month a couple days ago there were twenty five shootings in new york chicago is completely off the hook we can see forty eight hundred people killed since newtown why is the n.r.a. fighting closing a gun show loophole thing all over the last should they pick the better battles this is something everybody like here's this thing you want another law but yet i
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also want to know the law i want the existing law to cover everybody right here existing law doesn't cover everybody is it law until fairly a lot of the gun violence that has happened since newtown people were violating the existing law and so i'm still with that doesn't mean you're not going to stop it because if you're a criminal and you want to show heidi you don't care you're going to find somewhere to have weeks ago somebody brought a bank in maryland shall we just do away with bank robbery laws after all it doesn't stop criminals no but i don't see why i think it's sending a false message of security to say one more law is going to stop this because it's not because if i have a gun shot it and i'm a federal firearms licensee i have to do a background check no matter who i sell to no matter where i sell it even out of my kitchen so if i'm a gun seller i have to do everybody. that's all those laws so just make it that way for everybody i mean that's a logistical nightmare you're not going to be able to do anything and then a lot more guns are going to be sold to people who don't get it i mean that's the
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deal with regulations and the left you don't understand the unintended consequences in just this very light go astray it was a bit musk here in tasmania australia. it was assault rifles. have read it was already banned in this country we got it we got a got to move along here. quick one quick for on yesterday's episode of morning joe on m.s.n. b.c. joe scarborough talking of the sad accuse the n.r.a. of shading president obama's face in a recent attack ad against senator joe manchin here's what joe scarborough it is for the obama ideal. he shaded all fully all fully i think shaving is rather dramatic his face yeah i don't know he said just say we remember when o.j. was when time magazine shaded o.j. in that mug i think this is let's use so you know what let's just look at this and
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just let it breathe for a few seconds this picture and the photo shopping brought to you by the national rifle association of wayne la pierre so the question did the n.r.a. shade the picture because they are racists or because they're appealing to race you hear me make a said yeah bloomberg to both of those photographs had the shading they were black and white they were they were green was a black guy yeah but even mika said they did the same thing to bloomberg come on guys are that it's not just. you know prominent liberal media. just i want to go to the right. mark ten side and i don't know for sure what they did here but if they were trying to play on racial stereotypes that's wrong and the president still the president you know whether you like him or not he should not take steps to disrespect in this way and if it was meant to be racist or to appease to racist the mess just wrong i mean it's just wrong. on the market old thank you
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for being with me and. coming up in the age of the internet and high tech gizmos our society is learning more in the moment and in the now than ever before but how do we strike a balance between living in the now and also considering the implication. our actions will have on the future a stocker dog that was rushkoff into its conversations with very. wealthy british style. sometimes privately. markets why not come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's cancer for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to kaiser report on our. mission free accreditation free
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transport judges free. range mentioned free risk free just to tide free. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects and a free media dog r.t. dot com you.
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welcome to our conversations of great minds with dr douglas rushkoff dr rushkoff is an author teacher documentarian who studies the way people cultures and institutions create share and influence each other's values world renowned media theorist and counter-culture figure is the originator of ideas such as viral media social currency and screen agers he's going to the forefront of digital society from its beginning correctly predicting the rise of the net the dotcom boom and bust as well as the current financial crisis and is a familiar voice on n.p.r. a face on p.b.s. and writer and publications from discover magazine to the new york times to rushkoff newest book is titled present shock when everything happens now and explores the always on always connected got to have everything right now society in
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which we live after rush joins us now from our new york studios dr rushkoff welcome . it's great to be with the long time listener first time caller oh thank you that's great. i love your book i. let's let's start with this whole you actually on page thirty nine you're talking about how joseph campbell you know the first images of earth the important a myth and fall of g. and how are paradigms changed and we saw that marble in the sky and all these other things tell me of the. the importance of story in narrative and how time has changed for us over time. well i think we've been using stories for a long time certainly since you know aristotle's age to teach people and motivate people you know we've we've got stories with clear beginnings middles and endings and you know we've used them. to motivate people to go to war you know let's just
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go get those guys and then we'll win to have religion you know keep believing in you'll be rewarded in heaven or someday moshiach will come you know keep your eyes on the prize the ends justify the means and we'll make it through to the end. so stories on the one hand they help motivate people and keep us directed but on the other hand they can be rather exploitive you know whether it's a movie that's teaching us you know that oh. the values in arnold schwarzenegger's values are the ones that we should adapt adopt or a commercial you know that puts us into a state of anxiety and the only way out is to buy that pimple cream so that you can you know make it to the prom and i feel like the advent of digital technology has given so much interruption so many opportunities for pause whether it's the remote control through which we can just change channels or the d.v.r. through which we can fast forward or rewind through through a show or are just our reluctance at this point to submit to the captive spell of
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a storyteller we don't really have that same bias in a sense in our culture where it's not the central structure through which we really organize our experience of life and we're much more in a present based style of storytelling or narrative you know one that's much more like a video game where we move in real time from choice to choice to choice and even the shows we watch whether it's you know game of thrones which is kind of like a soap opera or the simpsons or south park where we're making connections between things we don't really care how these things end where we're much more willing to move into a kind of a story structure but it's more about about sustainable models how do we keep the story going rather than how do we just get to that ending and feel relief is that a good thing or a bad thing or well it's both i mean i think if we use it appropriately it's a great thing we end up liberated from all of this you know two thousand years of
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stories that have been used to coerce people into some submission to tell you the story that oh you're going to work at this job for thirty years and there's a pension waiting for you at the end or you. going to believe in this religion and then somehow you'll be rewarded in some afterlife so on one sense we get to liberate ourselves from that and start to look at well what's actually going on right now in my life what's my what's the quality of my experience rather than putting off everything i can start to look at what's going on right now you know from the the more negative side i suppose is it can feel rather rudderless if you don't find other ways of navigating the path i've just. the the the concept of mindfulness you know the buddhist concept of being in the present and it's exists all religions of the buddhists are probably most well known for but of of. being aware of what you're aware of or even going to if
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you know no to seen your own awareness being aware of the world around you it seems to me that the more i'm involved in digital media the harder it is to just pause for a second step back and notice that i'm noticing i just get lost in it i mean the irony here is that when digital technology first came around it was actually one of the first opportunities to pause you know in the in the old days the telephone rings you've got to go answer it then in there whatever you're doing is interrupted you've got to go get to it and you've got to be available to that that person calling you know when the internet first came around i thought it was going to be giving us time you know when when you get an email you don't have to answer it that second you can get to it in your own time the beauty of the time shifting quality of digital media was you would get to your email at the end of the day you'd see something from an intelligent person and you'd have hours you'd have all night to craft a response i remember those early bulletin boards you know you would download the
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entire conversation and then you would read it then you'd think about how you would respond kind of like almost like chess by mail and the response is that you would craft that one or two pair. graphs that you would enter into the conversation or you would your best you know the internet was a place where people sounded smarter than they did in real life but you know something odd happened on the way home from wired magazine you know when when human attention became the new commodity you know we ended up strapping these devices to ourselves and we have them interrupt us they paying us away every time someone updates or wants an answer to something or or tweets about us and we end up in this state of kind of perpetual emergency interruption doing doing the equivalent of crisis management and we end up sounding really stupid and impulsive and we can feel like we can never catch up and i would argue this is not the fault of technology but the fault of the way we've chosen to employ this technology yeah and
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in fact you know speaking to that you made. i thought it was just a remarkable comment. trying to find it here i actually flagged it you sort of may see it you are talking you said the earth reaches maximum state of openness which is really a dimension of what you're talking about here at least so far as september tenth two thousand and eleven and then you say it may be seem glib any and then you talk you had talked about you know p.r. disasters and terrorism and you say it may seem glib to equate a terrorist attack with a public relations snafu but from the perspective of the institutions now under seemingly perpetual assault it's the same challenge can you speak. well it's interesting you know the nine eleven in some ways like the y2k bug sort of represent this turning point from a very future focused society to one that's much more present based and i feel like in the ninety's we were leaning forward into something that was the dot com boom in
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the long boom the idea that the markets were going to keep expanding you know the internet became kind of the poster child for nasdaq and we were going to just keep growing and growing now because we had this new. and of territory we didn't have to colonize some other place we could colonize people we could colonize human attention and get more eyeball hours out of people but when when nine eleven happened it kind of flipped things we sort of saw oh my if we're just going to give everybody all this technology and decentralize everything all of a sudden well well now there's a problem with that now who's all these people that are in power with technology and the sort of massive centralization of power is being diminished it's under threat and then we see you know government you know no longer has a common enemy it's not like we can go look at those guys or the russians we're going to get them or this is now it's just something that seemingly comes from everywhere all the time so just as you and i might be always on with our devices getting vibrated the government is in that state on what's happening here what's
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happening there you know it kind of shifts the sensibility all together you it does it does back to the just for a second back to the concept of mindfulness and presence and being present. how does one reclaim the ability to be mindful or to be present in a society that's always now and yet you never really have a sense that sense of it's now it's just always it's just happening so drinking out of a firehose moment i mean there's a few ways i mean it depends you know we could do it on an individual level and we also then have to sort of talk about how to do this on a structural level you know as individuals i think it has to do with realizing it's not the technology so much as the expectations of the people on the other side of that technology right your e-mail inbox is not attacking you it's someone who's sending an e-mail and expecting that now you're going to respond in real time to that thing as if they haven't relegated it to the timeless zone of of the internet
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you know i think it's also a matter of of being able to parse and really distinguish between the activities that you do that don't happen in time like all of this internet stuff. and the real life experiences that you have that are really within the human rhythm you know there's there's a day and there's a night there's a moon with different phases there's seasons the human body human society and our culture we live in time we know what the ancient greeks called kronos says or rather it's sort of human timing that's very different from what they called kronos which is time of the clock it's like time of the clock kronos is like for a one i crashed the car but what's the best time to tell dad you crashed the car for zero three you know the best time to tell him is more like timing right it's after he's had his drink and before he's open the bills you know so i feel like it's a matter of people reconnecting to the sense of real time the sense of human timing
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in which we live and in fact in the book you pointed out that there are times literally different times of day when we're better at different things some people are really really fresh in the morning for the for a week and then the next week there are fresh in the afternoon we have daily cycles we have monthly cycles the all of the seems to be subsumed in a digital when the digital world takes control of us well yeah i mean we've done it differently with different media you know over the centuries whether it was text giving us the calendar or the mechanical industrial age giving us the clock we're now the digital age giving us the sort of sequenced pulsing digital time each one of these. kind of almost tell us to forget that there are very natural underlying rhythms to human awareness to human consciousness and activity you know jetlag used to be looked at as folklore until major league baseball managers
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started to notice that pitchers did worse going from the west coast to the east coast than they did going from the east coast to the west coast and that's because their biological clocks were were more more challenged by the shortening of the day you know. now you know new research is showing that there's a lunar cycle that seems to dictate the neurochemistry is in our brains you know so in the first week of a new moon we tend to have more acetylcholine in the second week we've got more serotonin the third week we've got more dopamine in the last week we have norepinephrine well if you know that i mean whether you're a person or a business you know it's acetylcholine week people are going to be open to new ideas good for meeting people sara tonin week they're going to be working really hard don't mean week they want to party you're not going to try to get anything done then norepinephrine week they're going to get analytical and cold and be good at doing structural analysis if you start to recognise these underlying patterns rather than accepting the kind of digital premise that all time is the same you end up really connected to human power rather than trying to circumvent it that's
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absolute more of tonight's conversations of great minds with dr douglas doug douglas rushkoff absolutely. i would rather as questions for people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find i feel larry king now right here on r.t.
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question more. it's.
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all about your conversations with great minds with dr douglas rushkoff to rushkoff is an author teacher and documentarian who studies the way people cultures and institutions create sure and influence each other's values he's the author of the recent book present shock when everything happens now let's get back to it dr rushkoff page one forty seven of your book i found this a way you would he had just been kind of getting into this thing of of how money came about and how our economies came about and. this was one of the most eloquent . ways of summarizing this you were talking about flow based economies and i'd like you to address that just a second you said the beauty of
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a flow based economy is that if favors those who actively create value kind of you know channeling adam smith and then you said the problem is that it does favors those who are used to reaping passive rewards and then he talked about how the the earth stock received didn't watch like that you know that kind of a system the wealthy needed to. a way to make money simply by having money so what one by one each of the early monarchies of europe outlawed the kingdom's local currencies replace them with a single central currency how did we go and then and then you talk about money as time and in time as a new form money can you give us that riff can you can you summarize that for us it's such a really great and i don't want to talk about it much funnier honestly and this is not just to bribery or that you know wrote this book and the one before it with your books on my desk right because we're talking about a similar thing from two different sides really. industrial age money. is an invention it was invented at the same time as the clock it was it was the same time
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that we decided to pay people for their hours rather than the value they created back in the in the late middle ages the thing that crashed feudalism but the thing that led to the rise of a merchant middle class was the marketplace was a real time peer to peer marketplace where people made goods and exchange them directly and they used local currencies to do this because local currencies were based in grain that was just brought in right from the fields it was just a receipt and it tended to really it was biased very much towards transaction it was a great peer to peer act of a commie the problem with this was that the wealthy weren't participating in it right the wealthy haven't created value in centuries they didn't know how to make anything so they changed the law they they invented central currency and outlawed all the other kinds and the brilliance behind central currency is that it had a built in clock rate that was the time bias of it you lend it out at interest so it has to be paid back in the future more than you more than you put in so that's
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how we ended up with an economy that has to expand right the economy has to grow in order for it just to stay still and this khana me it was great for colonialism right it was great for expanding economies because it was growing but what do you do when you reach the twenty first century and there's no more room to grow that's where we use. digital technology we've turned human attention human time into the new really into the new commodity into the new growth area and that's why we're all online all the time maybe online in ten different places at once if you're not connected then you're not producing in the economy with the real opportunity of the digital age and we're seeing the beginnings of it in things like x. c. or kickstarter were the real possibility here is to restore or retrieve the peer to peer economy that we lost before is to look towards an economic rule set that instead of just favoring those who want to accumulate capital it starts to favor those who want to transact who want to actually create value and exchange value
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themselves so. how would how does this relate to things like time based currencies when i lived in vermont we had the green green mountain hours they were called dollars and and each one was worth one hour of a person's time whether that person was a dentist or whether they were a farmer or whether they were a plumber we all just traded and you know the local businesses would take the locally owned local business we did and donald wouldn't take them but the locally owned businesses would take them and it kept that money in the economy and kept people in the economy is there a digital analog to that and is there a lesson we can learn from that sort of thing. there absolutely is i mean local currencies have tended to be local because you have trust when you know who that other person is or there's the candle maker there is a massage therapist there's the babysitter and now we can all exchange value and
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you have. a bit of responsibility right there's some liability and accountability because you're living in the same community you know how do you make those things work in a more long distance fashion well the cell phone is a great tool for that because now we can authenticate digitally right now the beauty of these things is you know when we have it. problem we end up with the president saying well now we've got to figure out how do we get the banks to lend money to companies so they put a factory in the town so the factory can give a job to people so people can work hours and that get that money so they can go and buy stuff from other people who are working at wal-mart distributing goods that are made in china you know that's the long way around if you have a place where there's people with needs and people with skills you have the basis for an economy all they need is a means of exchanging value that's a little bit more complex than barter and that's where peer to peer currency start to come into play and that's where our devices give us the ability now to seek out
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people with reputations that we can verify to do transactions in a way that we can trust because it's being it's being recorded in a way that gives has just as much if not more authority then then the printing press of the of the federal government now. i've worked in several african countries most recently in south sudan and one of the things that i've noticed over the last few years in particular the last decade half a decade decade is that people who. pretty much don't even have checking accounts i mean they're you know they're they're living on you know ten twenty thirty forty dollars a month or some cases the wealthy once a week are buying things with their cell phones they're using their cell phones as ways to transact you know i mean literally they'll just punch in some buttons and boom it happens the money transfer happens there's nothing like that to the best my knowledge happening in the united states or is there and if there isn't why isn't
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there. i mean there's the beginnings of these things there's lots of efforts at local currencies in new york there's a local currency and there's a famous one and there are some successful ones in michigan it tends to be that you know people don't want to adopt something like this while they still think they have x. . to real money right to the dollar you know the issue with local currencies is they're not really they don't really help you save right the with the local currency you just kind of want to stay near zero you want to be providing as much to your community as you're taking out you can't really accumulate them the same way they don't get interest you can't stick in them back in the bank you can't you know invest in intel stock with one of them so people start worrying about the future you know where. i think what we start what local currencies can do what these real time currencies can do is lead people to start looking to alternatives to the kind of security that they've imagined before so that your security may have
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less to do with your four a one k. plan than your ties to your community you know if you're in a real community of people who care about each other that should be worth more than a couple of hundred thousand dollars in the bank to buy stuff at the supermarket and it may take you know unfortunately may take the economy getting worse before people find this what i think is a much more profound and stable form of economic activity i think you're right and i think it's going to get worse personally but that speaks to a more egalitarian community and economy or and or a more human based one hundred we do that in an age that is a watch in digital notice and particularly in one where the digital knows in many cases is run by giant corporations or people who can cloak their identity. you know it's very tricky you know most people today the only way they can imagine
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getting to something like that is and i talk about it in the last chapter of the book in apocalypto you know they have to imagine a zombie apocalypse you know they have to imagine the utter destruction of everything we know in order to get to the simple lifestyle and the sad thing about it is you know people look at the zombie apocalypse almost as wish fulfillment right over to something they want because at least there's no twitter there's no phone ringing there's no job to get to you just you know sit on a hilltop with your family and a shotgun and. you know knock down slow moving zombies you know the i think the real way through is are people to learn how to use their technologies in ways that that are consonant with what they actually want in their lives do you really want to be on facebook is that is that worth the price you know these technologies aren't free you're not paying with money you're paying with your data that you're paying with your data trail we people seem so surprised the government's looking at your data what did you think was going on google's just giving you this stuff
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because they like you do you think facebook is out there just to help you make friends you know they're there harvesting your data because that can be used in a. simple term that can be used against you know they know who's going to get pregnant before you know yourself whether you're going to get pregnant because your data is being mined and you're being delivered ads and you are being influenced on the basis of stuff you don't yet know about yourself you know so i would argue the answer is to feel free to not use your devices at their default settings you know my phone i have it only rain when it's it's my wife or my best friend and they're on v.o.i.p. setting everybody else goes into voicemail because i don't have to be available to them i don't have to be available to everything all at once and the less you are in those devices in the less you're available to the board. if you will the more available you are to the other people who are actually around you you know and
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that's where we gain our strength both as humans on a spiritual level and as actors on a political level it's people who are in concert together conspiring literally breathing together. you know it requires human beings in space is together because terror of fear but you know the real world is the only place where human beings have the home field advantage out on the net i'm sorry to say that's not the human turf that's an abstract art that's where corporations that's where abstract entities have the home field advantage and you can use it you know you can be empowered by it but you can't live there and consider yourself a native we have a little less than a minute left how can you connect with people around you after you've disconnected yourself for the v.i.p. setting when they don't. it's tricky you know i try to engage with people i ask you know if i'm having it sometimes very simple i mean dinner with somebody it's like
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do you really need to be available to your phone right now is your grandmother dying is there something to remind people that it used to be that the an emergency interruption was the operator breaking into the phone call because someone in your family was dying you know now the emergency interruption is that you know you know britney spears popped is it so a.p. news is going to be throwing you an alert like well wait a minute do you need to be in that state of anxious always on availability or can you be with other people right now really an absolutely brilliant dr douglas rushkoff thank you so much for being with us tonight oh thank you for what you do and for writing this brilliant book present shock when everything happens now to see this and other conversations of the great lines go to our website conversations with great minds dot com. and that's the way it is tonight friday june fourteenth two thousand and thirteen and don't forget democracy begins when you get that active tag you're it.
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let me let me let me ask you a question. here on this network as we're having the debate we have our knives out if. but if you feel the slightest bad thing ever get here in a fixed rate will be i'd like to talk about surveillance me. cold . mission free
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accreditation free transport charges free. arrangements free. three stooges free. download free blog plug in video for your media projects a free video dot com. larry
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king now meet laura ingram the queen of conservative talk radio if you're going to play a bidding war for various constituency groups the democrats will always build out video sounds all about the reason why the scandals and the concern is if you if you ask too many questions if you dig too deeply if you're a whistleblower then look out for people to say it's like it is like nixon and her stance on immigration it can't be that anyone who manages to sneak across the border is suddenly an american i don't believe that for all next on larry king now . my guest today laura ingram her old friend the most listened to woman in political tall brady a host of laura ingle show and.


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