tv Headline News RT June 23, 2013 12:00pm-12:47pm EDT
u.s. national security agent whistleblower edward snowden will spend the night in a moscow airport after arriving from hong kong parties reporter is following the border dash for political asylum. ecuador and diplomats reportedly met snowden at the airport but it's unclear exactly where he'll go next . already checked in on a flight to cuba from where he'll head to as yet unrevealed destination. as the hunt for snowden crosses continents n.s.a. leaks are piling up with new allegations that even barack obama. while he was running for senate. looks at the resemblance between the plight of snowden. and washington struggle to prevent a torrent of its secrets being revealed. international
news and comment live from a studio center here in moscow this is with twenty four hours a day whistleblower edward snowden who is wanted by the u.s. is in moscow after landing on a flight from hong kong airport sources say he'll spend the night there and wait for his next flight reportedly to cuba on monday afternoon it's then he'll fly on to a third as yet unknown destination let's cross now to pull scott paul so numerous sources giving very different accounts plenty of speculation what have you heard at the airport. yes lots of information has been bandied around all week.
that edward snowden. arrived fifteen. flight from hong kong and he was greeted by the ecuadorian. remain in the. building behind. told. he will be spending the night in the airport making the journey into the city center towards the ecuadorian embassy and if you have to ask yourself why would you risk it the rumor is that he's flying to cuba and around the time two o'clock monday afternoon moscow time he's. on a flight to. yourself why would he risk the journey from the airport to the ecuadorian embassy. watching him there were hundreds of journalists. waiting for his from the from the building and then you get to the embassy you have to do it all again. in the morning so it's looking increasingly likely that edward
snowden will spend the night here. with suggestions of his final destination. earlier today the rumor that his final destination would be. with another transit as we mentioned but. suggested. that they would be greeted. by diplomats. diplomats from the country will grant asylum. diplomats from any other country at the moment. thanks very much indeed for that we'll hear more from you as you hear more developments thanks very much and. now we know that paul was saying sent some diplomats to that airport a little while waiting outside the embassy here in moscow the ecuadorian embassy.
is combine would say to burn do you know any further what the ecuadoran diplomats were doing going there to the airport. hi bill well early on a run for all clock this often in moscow time where we were standing right outside here the i could go embassy in moscow as a the ambassador what looked like a diplomatic cause a form the ecuadorian embassy pulled out to be also where they were going and the investor had said i will not to be disclosing any information and he left now subsequently we now know that he is at the airport meeting snowden now there were rumors that there were other diplomats who were going to meet snowden as of course said that the third destination is still unknown as yet now early on our sources at the airport said that the ambassador of ecuador has indeed a ride as the airport and is a with a snowden but then there was another diplomatic collar diplomatic person or what we thought was a diplomatic person who was there who since went to end and then left the airport
now the reason why there's been so a speculation as to where snowden a will go next and particularly why ecuador is involved in all of this is because of one particular case that we've all been following here at r.t. around the world and that is the case of julian assange one of the world's of most famous whistle blower was just innocent of course was wanted by the swedish government on charges of sexual assault he has since denied and those are the charges he said trial in london of trying to extradite him to sweden he then decided that around june a twelve last year that he was going to us was silent from of the ecuadorian embassy aquittal government a did of course of granting that asylum of late in that they will of course felt that if he was to be extradited back to the united states he might face an unfair trial one and two that he might face a really uncomfortable and humiliating circumstances of course we know we could leaks editor julian assange there is a. those are really really big scandals of from the ministry and the diplomatic
cables that huey's it to the media has wanted by the us now cause we be getting all sorts of information today we. are trying to figure out where the final destination for snowden will be right now it's all speculation that perhaps it might be. via caracas we don't know yet we're still yet looking to speak to them bassett are looking for that information to bring to the rest of us a bill back to you thanks very much indeed for that. in. my colleague it was talking to journalist paul clearly a lot of speculation as to whether snowden will either go to venezuela or ecuador but lashmar believes that ecuador would be a good choice of asylum for snowden we don't know but it would make sense the cube . or the. door which is popular here for. us
in the. embassy in london for nearly a year now waiting to go to that country what do you think the odds are that he may actually follow his route and go to ecuador. i think it's reasonably high because their government have this position i think venezuela is a bit more unstable at the moment since the death of chavez and the nature of relationships with other countries isn't so clear but i could or i think is we are fairly firm about this sounds position so i would guess it would be good. for snowden over. well what of the reaction from washington u.s. senator charles schumer has criticized president putin for allowing moscow to become a transit stop for edward snowden but russia has said it wasn't even aware of his plans let's cross live now to washington and talk tardies got to take on a bulk reaction from washington what more do you know about the sentiments
washington has towards moscow at the moment. well as far as official statements we're getting reports that the u.s. embassy in moscow has notified russian officials that edward snowden no longer has a valid u.s. passport now we don't know whether they informed. before snowden flew out of there right now while at the airport in moscow he is in a transit area so he doesn't really need a passport but again we don't know where he. as far as. the white house reaction but there hasn't been any reaction from from washington here but we heard comments from some lawmakers senator chuck schumer was on this morning saying president putin has aided and abetted snowden's escape adding that and i quote here putin always seems almost eager to put a finger in the eye of the united states then you have another senator lindsey graham saying russia will face consequences if it harbors edward snowden world
first of all we don't know whether edward snowden is planning on staying in russia snowden said he would seek asylum in a country that would not be easily pressured by the u.s. we know that the u.s. has put a lot of pressure on hong kong to rest note and not to let he leave the country in this saturday president obama's national security adviser expressed some confidence that snowden would be extradited from hong kong but in a statement the government of hong kong says quote a u.s. documentation did not fully comply with the needle requirements under hong kong a lot but that statement also says snowden left quote on his own accord for a third country through a lawful and normal channel but also in the statement the government of hong kong as that they want more information about the hacking of computer systems in hong kong by u.s. government agencies something that was part of edward snowden revelations so in this official statement we see hong kong shifts the focus from the messenger from edward snowden to the message to the revelations that he has made and demanding an
explanation from the u.s. government. those revelations have been groundbreaking the u.s. government meanwhile is interested of course in focusing on the messenger and the obama administration has charged more whistleblowers with espionage than all previous administrations combined all the whistleblowers including snowden they maintain that they have made those revelations for the public good for the public to to be able to make informed decisions more about that in my report. america is split on edward snowden traitor hero mix in between but regardless of what anyone thinks about snowden his revelations have shed unprecedented light on the u.s. government's massive spying program even if you're not doing anything wrong you're being watched and recorded former n.s.a. employee william binney was prosecuted as a traitor when he blew the whistle on the government's sweeping collection of data and communications it's setting up a tele tarion state. when the government has that much information they can do
those things they can use the i.r.s. to intimidate people or anything else they can send the f.b.i. people what they did to me and some others bradley manning to is being prosecuted as a traitor although it's still his war logs that the public learned about the. collateral murder was committed in iraq the obama administration has prosecuted more whistleblowers under the espionage act than all previous administrations combined but it was a lower say it's not government persecution that they fear the greatest fear that i have regarding the outcome. for america of these disclosures is that nothing will change the administration is not trying to convince the american people that government secrets programs are a trade off they have to make in the name of national security they always have the same stories about you know science manning is known you know psychological stories what is wrong with these people cause them to do this i mean the real question is what is wrong with everyone else from who doesn't see what they can see but it was
a blowers are not the only targets there is an obligation both moral but also legal i believe against a reporter that was the chairman of the house committee on cutting teligent and terrorism peter king calling to punish the journalist who exposed the government surveillance programs in its hunt for meeks the obama administration has already targeted its it's trying to set the precedent for the communicating with the media is the same as communicating with the enemy and it's a death penalty offense the administration doesn't have to go after each other or he certainly it's enough to create an environment of fear but will that fear stop information from coming out here's edward snowden's answer to that question. conan response is simply build better whistleblower he said in washington i'm going to take on. a military contributor afshin rattansi believes no developing nation would agree to just hand snowden over. chinese american relations it just goes
to show how poorly those relations are going because that arrest warrant went out the complaint under the espionage act and under international law as the united states might have it and of course the hong kong government ignored it as most developing nations would they realize that the united states and the way it's been operating is something like a tallit arion strait and so many ways i suppose averse stub united states were using their back channels trying to get through to xi jinping saying what an earth is going in hong kong they released this espionage act complaint what is it an authorized communication of a national defense information and immediately the journeys government cooperates with edward snowden perhaps corporates with the russian government and everyone is trying to desperately spirit him away because we know president obama wants to get him by any means necessary. or to live here moscow will be back after a very short break with more on edward snowden story.
he's continues here in fifteen minutes past the weather a fresh turns in the global spy scandal whistleblower russell tice who released his secrets during the george w. bush era says former cia head general protests petraeus and even barack obama were once the targets for n.s.a. snooping he confirmed that danger was being stored james corbet based independent journalist believes his revelations didn't get the attention they deserve. while the snowden drama unfolds something that's being swept under the rug are these new revelations from n.s.a. whistleblower russell tice who is in fact one of the people who was one of the
sources for the original two thousand and five new york times story on the n.s.a. wiretapping scandal at that time but now russell tice to step forward with more information into explosive interviews from the last few days he talked about how they're the n.s.a. is in fact storing not just the metadata which has been the talking point in the newsroom so far but the content of all electronic communications that are going across the u.s. servers from e-mails to faxes to phone calls all of it being stored now at the new data center and in utah he also went on record to name names of some of the specific targets of n.s.a. spying on with the implication that this information was being used for blackmailing purposes on including senator then senator barack obama including general david petraeus and others who he mentioned by name including supreme court justices and top ranking military and republican congressional officials so this is being specifically avoided right now and the implication is that the news outlets are as we've seen with the snowden story and other stories collaborating with the
intelligence agencies behind the scenes to repress this information but this is this is absolutely explosive and again coming from a key n.s.a. whistleblower who is right now being ignored with these allegations. and laws canaider of the u.k. parra party believes the u.s. will try to convince the public that edward snowden is a traitor to distract attention from his revelations. what we can be sure of is the united states will continue to tar him with the brush of being a traitor whatever his final destination is but we have to remember that that is a distraction what we need to focus on is actually the core of this story which is his read the revelations about mass surveillance remember this is about whistle blowing it's not espionage it's about actually revealing. a mass surveillance which is potentially illegal and is certainly has been happening behind closed
doors without proper democratic debate without proper democratic oversight we're told all the time that if we've got nothing to hide we've got nothing to fear but that has now been blown out of the water by edward snowden's revelations and the fact is that the more that's collected about us the more we have to fear. be deterred sure who is a u.k. human rights activist says u.s. surveillance tactics are outrageous and beyond all legal. i'm sure the united states will be doubling its efforts to try and intercept him and to get an extradition from whatever country they can i think the context of this is that the united states spies on its own citizens it also spies on the citizens of millions of other countries i mean millions of people in other countries and this is done without the permission of those countries it is technically illegal and what is
extraordinary is that it would snowden was employed by the united states as a spy yet now they are seeking to arrest him for spying it seems complete enough pocket see when the united states is spying on its own citizens and citizens around the world on a massive scale without proper governmental interest oversight either within the united states or other countries around the world the unwavering support of many u.s. companies for the government surveillance program is leading to some difficult questions coming up looks at what might be in it for those firms. we know now that thousands of companies have been sharing sensitive information with the u.s. government in exchange for various benefits now this raises concerns about the extent of the private sector collaboration with the u.s. government not to mention questions about what exactly those benefits were now the
details may be murky at this point but let's go over exactly what information we have companies who did hand over data to the government got a big thank you that's according to michael hayden who used to head the cia as well as the national security agency which runs of course the prism program and mr hayden told bloomberg this if i were the director and had a relationship with a company who was doing things that were not just directed by law but were also valuable to the defense of the republic i would go out of my way to thank them and give them a sense as to why this is necessary and useful all right well what kind of thank you exactly are we talking about here well again not a lot of details but anonymous sources did tell bloomberg that leaders of the companies who handed over data to the government were showered with attention and information by government agencies in fact in some instances that meant quick warnings about the threats that could affect their bottom line for example serious internet attacks and who's behind them of course this exchange of information is
supposed to be voluntary and while at this point we don't exactly have evidence that this is not the case but while most of the companies seem to have participated simply because the government asked them for help one former c.e.o. paints a slightly different picture in two thousand and one when some telecom giants allegedly were asked to participate in an n.s.a. information sharing program one company qwest initially refused to play ball and according to court documents filed by its then c.e.o. joseph nacho as a result of that decision the company was denied lucrative n.s.a. contracts he believed to be worth fifty to one hundred million dollars retaliation he says for refusing to partake in the government's spy program. so to sum it up companies that share data earned government goodwill information about threats possible classified information and of course there's concern that those who did not play along could could have been left out of lucrative government contracts
course we don't have more information on this but that's per syslog the point the lack of transparency about this data swap is a major concern now it's done in the name of security but at what cost and to whom this account for not reporting for our team in moscow. or james petras he's from new york's being hampton university he's written extensively on issues involving latin america and joins me live to discuss edward snowden's flight to safety james let's first of all assume that he is heading ultimately for venezuela what is in it for caracas to hard to shelter one of washington's most wanted men what's in it for them. i think this been a history of us and tag an ism to venezuela which has encouraged venezuela to adopt a very independent position of venezuela has very close relations with a number of countries which have been in some ways in conflict with the united
states with iran it has good relations previously with gadhafi it recognizes the palestinian state it has very good relations with russia and china and it is a firm latin america as a independent continent and has encouraged regional organizations which exclude the united states so it's very clear that snowden's presence in venezuela he will receive protection and refugee status political refugee status. let me just tell you that as you know there's been an interesting development whereby ecuador and diplomats actually visited snowden. perhaps read into this that he could ultimately head to quito instead of course.
in their embassy in london. well i think the possibility will depend on the perception of political stability. president correa was recently elected with the resounding majority while the president in venezuela was elected with a small majority and the country is fairly polarized the us has operatives in venezuela people who've been active in trying to destabilize the government colombia across the board has recognized this opposition so it may be the case that even though venezuela would grant refugee status to. feel more secure in a government in a state where the opposition is very weak and most of the opposition actually is
from the left ardley likely to pressure the government to deny him refugee status and i think president correa has demonstrated with the case of asuncion that he's willing to stand up to pressure from the us in a very forthright way. will escape. the us and they seem to be some to the. same thing to getting stranded in in the moscow airport really is there anything they can do to stop him from getting away well we can't underestimate the clandestine operations of the us i'm not saying that they would actually kidnap or assassinate him but they've been known to engage in that kind of violations of sovereignty of a state. and i think we cannot exclude that option the question is how much security the russian state will provide him in his an exodus and i think in
that case putin is highly unlikely to allow for a u.s. clandestine operation the question is once he's in the air it depends on the flight if it's a cuban airlines or a venezuelan airlines anything could happen to us could send to intercept this as it crosses the atlantico i don't exclude that washington is notorious with obama violating sovereignty with the drones in pakistan in yemen. bomb ing libya now arming mercenaries since syria i think the question of the. flight and non-rival in venice were lower ecuador this is something we have to keep our eyes on but just briefly would not cause a huge international scandal if they were to divert
a commercial. in order to get this man to just briefly obama thrives on scandal thrives on violating international norms he seems to relish the fact that he's an outlaw and the presents himself and most moralistic charms is simply upholding us security so he's put a price primacy on planks of the retrograde forces in the united states rather than the niceties of international law james really interesting to hear your thoughts change petrus from being hampton university thank you very much indeed for joining us live in the states thank you for being with. well as whistle blows such as snowden revealed governments have to tied for personal data we're interested in how you feel about your private information being collected by security agencies and this is how you've been voting so far on a website auntie dot com it's on the home page or online poll the overwhelming
majority we can see seventy three percent think that collecting private data without any warning is totally unacceptable and then we can see that significantly less people are saying they really called provide their own says online because they could be easily tracked by security agencies being snooped anyway and seven percent of you are sure that it's totally justified in the case of spying on terror suspects and averting terrorist atrocities and finally a minority just three percent of the state of the date say that people have done nothing wrong why should they be warred go ahead with the surveillance it's all in the interests of national and personal security so do get involved cast your vote at all dot com good to him from me i'll be back right after this break.
their intention was. towards the ecuadorian embassy. which is looking increasingly likely that he's going to do. is because he has. one of the things we're hearing which is. it looks increasingly likely that he's going to be spending the night inside. the room. to cuba. ok paul thanks very much indeed for that. live following events there in moscow and
of course if we get any further developments then we'll keep you informed of all of those well we're not going to get to the views of michael parenti and he's a journalist based in vienna michael thanks very much indeed for joining us live. now snowden he's going to be prosecuted if he is caught but of course if he isn't caught then he faces the prospect of never going home these are very tough alternatives is it really worth it for him i think it is worth it for him it would be worth it for me if i was in his position it was worth it for bradley manning it's been worth it for julian a songe it's been worth it for daniel ellsberg it's been worth it for very many with blowers people you know make a calculation of what's important to them and then they act based on it so i think it's that edwards fully aware of what what it means we're just hearing now on the
lines that the ecuadoran foreign minister has tweeted saying he has indeed received an official request of asylum for ecuador so clearly then snowden is asking to go to quito does that surprise you because there's been a lot of speculation about him going to venezuela. well i think that i'm a bit surprised i have to admit i mean there was a little bit of smoke and mirrors about him going to iceland but obviously wiki leaks and julian have been acting behind the scenes to see that snowden got the same sort of treatment that julian's gotten so it's a it's a welcome development what is this man going through at the moment here he is he's at the center of an international manhunt. i bet he's just smiling i think that he knew this was coming and i bet he's happy that people are helping him to get along his way i could imagine that but insist growing when i was talking
to an analyst earlier saying the u.s. will do all they can to get their hands on and indeed even perhaps the commercial jet throwing which it could be flying through the atlantic in no particular international airspace and actually perhaps capture him that way and the jet and make it land where they can actually get a hold of him so he's not safe here who were so scared are we i mean ok it's in the public's eye we're all watching people are tracking his movements online with flight tracker the world's eyes are on edward snowden and america's on the stage right now doing what it is that they do best repressing and oppressing transparency and persecuting whistleblowers in front of the whole world so. i think it's a wonderful thing but he's not home yet is he and there is every chance that they could catch up with him home is where the heart is home is where your beliefs are and edward snowden is living in his heart and his beliefs i congratulate him for that what about these revelations though they targeted countries all across the
world including countries in the e.u. and in particular in germany and yet we're not hearing much from these countries are we at the moment well all of these countries are linked to american multiple different ways i mean we're going to see everybody acting in a different way based on what their other relationships are what their other political agendas are with america we don't know how many contras america are sitting on we don't know how many countries are in bed with america. this is the state of the world today. none of us really know how people are going to react other than the way that the public is reacting you have people all over the world right now watching what's going on for the first time actually i mean this kind of interest was really not shown with bradley manning scase i mean the press has been absolutely silent on him right up to this day so this is a this is a new development that we have a full international manhunt like a movie basically. for for
a whistleblower so the idea of whistle blowing is being planted in people's heads and they're looking and they're investigating more what that means he said he was heading to a democratic country why would he choose a latin american country plenty of all the choices full and well i think that latin america has shown that it doesn't want to be america's you know client state anymore many of those countries down there are are taking the opportunity to to assert themselves in multiple ways and ecuador has already shown that by granting julian a sign just siloam in the embassy in london so these are i think many latin american countries are asserting their own independence now which we didn't see last century let's talk about whistleblowers themselves manning snowden they face very difficult few choose their fates did they not put off potential future whistle blows or is it just simply going to encourage more. i think it's simply going to encourage more.
to be honest i mean well look at look we have we have we have it growing up and up it up step by step and step you have somebody that's inside the national security state who's known fully what happened to bradley manning and if you talk to people who are in the military if you talk to people in the navy if you talk to people in the army you know that there was a real chilling effect that was intended by how they treated manning so you know that and taking taking the chance that he did anyway shows that people are red x.'s stand up to the national security state to the surveillance state ok thanks very much and just going to listen yet we're out of time actually michael thanks very much indeed for joining us live. a journalist in vienna so just to confirm with you the latest developments and that is that snowden is now staying at the airport overnight in moscow but he has indeed applied officially for asylum to quito ecuador is latest news here on r t do stay with us for
a chat with trailblazing whistleblower william benny binion i should say just about how full of the tendrils of u.s. intelligence extend and the consequences for the general public that special interview next with more of those developments in about twenty minutes from now stay with us altie in moscow. little.
i think in the propaganda machine is extremely powerful but the question is about others and you are sometimes aiding in yourself the most it's devastating to gun down laws from the surrounding countries especially from the likes of qatar and saudi arabia. well. among high tech means good health whether it be the latest laser cutters a lifesaving heart rushing innovators are working hard to keep you healthy for some companies it's been a winding road from car simulators to cutting edge streaming systems for others it's been a life time the words along the mysteries of the cell take it all out on technology we've got the future ever.
more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. showing operations around the day. i'm sitting here with mr william benny he's a thirty two year veteran of the n.s.a. who helped design a top secret program he says broadly changed american personal data and he actually helped crack those codes and enter into this he is now a whistleblower mr benny thank you so much for joining me so first of all let's talk about the latest information that has come out from this n.s.a.
spying on americans well first of all the the pfizer warrant that was issued to the f.b.i. to get data from verizon. that's that's been going on according to the paper anyway since not a two thousand and seven. and this is like being renewed every three months so if you look at the top corner top right corner of that order it's thirteen dash eighty that means it's the eightieth order since in this year of two thousand and thirteen so when you start say well what are the other seventy nine orders you can figure other companies in and this is like the second order of two thousand and thirteen for each company so you know that maximum you would divide eighty by two and maximum number of companies that could be involved in this kind of order would be forty or so but i'm sure that there are other other things that they have other orders that they're issuing other than just this kind for the service providers or
the telecoms so let's talk about the nine internet companies that said that they are part of this this prison program should americans really be surprised at this but i'm not that's for sure but i would point out that. the n.s.a. had deployed naris devices and it's in court documents submitted by mark klein documenting the n.s.a. room in the file in the san francisco bay t.n.t. building where they had naris devices in a splitter that basically duplicated if i brought declines and would send him down to pass all the information went down two directions one of them went to the nearest devices in the n.s.a. room and so those nervous devices could take everything off that fiber optic line. which meant they could get one nearest insite device can do ten gigabits a second which meant it could reassemble a quarter and a million and a half and a quarter one thousand character e-mails a second and that's the kind of input they would get from one device now i'm sure
they have multiple devices at multiple sites in the country as well as other places in the world so that's an awful lot of data to try to manage and so they need to do things like build bluffdale to plan for the future so they have lots of storage for all this data coming in so how far down the rabbit hole are we are we really just that the temp of the iceberg in terms of their spying with this prison program coming out in the horizon records tim clemente who is an ex f.b.i. agent came on c.n.n. about a week or two ago and he said that any digital data wasn't wasn't safe and that the intelligence community f.b.i. had ways of getting back to it and he was specifically talking about that phone call between one of the tomorrow of brothers and his wife and if his wife didn't tell the f.b.i. what they talked about in that phone call that they had ways of getting back to that and transcribing and getting that information so that's telling you what they've got recorded then the extent of and how digital data means. all kinds of
e-mail all kinds of twitter kind of things and the thing going across the fiber optic lines as well as the public switch telephone network so we're not talking billions of pieces of information here are we are talking truly talking trillions my estimate with phone calls and emails jointly would be on the order of twenty trillion for the last twelve years how can we even manage that sort of thing they're saying with this present program for instance they have one lawmaker after another supporting it saying that it helps ward at least one terrorism attack how would trillions of emails and trillions of bits of data help find one terrorist attack my personal view is that the intelligence community is bamboozling congress and the administration they are telling them that we have to do this in order to find the bad guys in the networks and i just absolutely false you don't have to do that there were ways and means to do that and i left that ability and capability with them and they just threw it away so instead they opted to collect every but
everything they could about everybody in this country and one of the reasons is that that they would want to do that the only one i could think of is they wanted to be able to leverage anybody in this country for example. we could take the case of the i.r.s. and the and the tea party and the harassing they're doing there one of the one of the people who is being harassed was giving testimony in front of congress and they said. which i thought was quite revealing that they had a question from the i.r.s. that said what is your relationship with this other person and they gave the name well how would they know that unless they knew this these the community communications community of that person so that means you're getting back to this program where they're pulling all the records of phone call and e-mails and everything together and seeing who that person worked with in an on top of that it gave them the ability to pull together the entire tea party. so you would know
everybody that's involved in the tea party perfectly or centrally now this new president program says that if the agents who are an employee and his have a fifty one percent confidence that it's a foreign agent a foreign person can you talk about that accuracy how can we even guarantee you this fifty one percent really enough well that's another joke ok. these are all jokes i mean they expect people to believe this i mean there are two parts one is the public telephone the public switch the p.s.t.n. public switch telephone network and then the other is the internet or the world wide web. on the one side you have phone numbers now these phone numbers whether they're whether they're your landline phone or your mobile phone or your satellite phone all connect into this public switch telephone network and those numbers are in the world and you're talking about switches that are routing these communications from one point the earth to another and they have to know.