tv FOX News Sunday With Chris Wallace FOX September 13, 2009 9:00am-10:00am EDT
>> i'm chris wallace and this is "fox news sunday." >> i'm chris wallace and this is captioning made possible by fox news >> president obama makes his case for health care reform. now it's congress' turn. we'll talk with four senators at the heart of the debate, democrats claire mccaskill and kent conrad and republicans lindsey graham and orrin hatch. then his outbursts during the speech has got everyone talking. we'll sit down with a man who called out the president, congressman joe wilson, in a "fox news sunday" exclusive. plus, the road ahead in afghanistan. eight years after 9/11.
are democrats in congress prepared to block the president's plan for victory? we'll ask our sunday regulars, brit, mara, bill and juan. and our power player of the week, big labor's biggest voice, all right now on "fox news sunday." and hello again from fox news in washington. we'll talk with congressman joe wilson in a few minutes about his outburst during the president's speech and whether he will apologize on the house floor or face some form of discipline from the democratic leadership. but first, was mr. obama's speech a game changer in the debate over health care reform? and let's get right to it. senator orrin hatch of utah, you have a history of working with democrats on health care reform. did the president's speech improve his chances for getting his plan through this year? >> oh, i think it probably did. it was, in my opinion, long on rhetoric and very -- very short on substance. but, nevertheless, it was a very
good political speech. too bad that wasn't 2008 rather than 2009. no, it was a good speech, but i really believe the hard work has to be done and hopefully we can -- we can all work together and get it done. but i really don't see it with what they're trying to do. >> let me bring in senator lindsey graham of south carolina. did the president, with his speech, improve or hurt his chances of getting health care reform through this year? >> i thought it was a disaster. i thought it was combative. he -- he's obviously on the defensive. he's lumping every critic in with a demagog. he's accusing us of bickering when we're trying to have major policy discussions. he outlined a $900 billion proposal that doesn't make sense how you'd pay for it. politically, it made it very hard i think to find a middle. >> perhaps the president doesn't want the middle and senator claire mccaskill of missouri, let me ask you about that. did the president resolve the differences between liberals and moderate democrats in congress?
>> well, i think his speech, he was trying to speak to america and make sure that americans realize the kind of misinformation that has been out there. as we try to come up with a plan that works for most americans in terms of holding on to insurance and stabilizing insurance, there's give and take. but the president i think cleared the air about what is true and not true about what we're trying to get done here and why it's so important for america. i thought it was a strong speech and i think the polling indicated that after, that there were a lot of swing voters out there that said, hey, he's willing to compromise and be pragmatic. that's good. >> senator kent conrad of north dakota, are democrats in the senate how unified behind the president's plan? >> i think democrats are pretty much unified in the senate around a plan that brings down costs, because that's the central goal here, and i thought the president made a very powerful case that the course
we're on now is utterly unsustainable. anybody that says we just stay on the current course is not paying attention. we have got a circumstance in which cost has to be brought down. that's the number one issue i heard all across my state during the break. second, he said he's prepared to hear a better idea, so if somebody's got a better idea, bring it to him. third, he said, look, i am ready to move toward the middle. he talked about a plan that's very close to the bipartisan plan that's being developed in the finance committee. >> all right. let's break this down. there are obviously a bunch of issues here. the big issue, i think it's fair to say, going into the speech was whether the president was going to insist on the public option, government-run insurance, to compete with private insurers. here's what he said. >> the public option is only a means to that end. we should remain open to other ideas that accomplish our ultimate goal. >> senator conrad, some people
read the president as paving the way in this speech for dropping the public option. as one of the people, one of the leaders in the senate among democrats who's looking for another option besides government-run insurance, is that the way you read it, that the president -- do you think he's giving up on the public option? >> i don't think he's giving up. i think he made a very strong case for his support for a public option as an option. but i think he also said, look, i'm open to other ideas. in fact, he spoke favorably about the cooperative approach which would provide a nonprofit competitor, but would not be government-run. would be run by its membership, as all co-ops are. i thought he left the door open to a compromise really across the board in order to achieve the result of bringing down cost, expanding coverage and improving quality. >> senator mccaskill, as a practical matter, isn't the public option dead? >> i don't know.
and i think the public option in some ways has become a distraction. the meat of this matter is that we're losing 14,000 americans from health insurance every day. the meat of the matter is that most middle class families are worried that they won't be able to afford health insurance next year. and the bottom line is we -- any deficit hawk cannot look you in the eye and honestly say we can do anything about the deficit if we don't bring down health care costs. so i think what the president tried to do is shift the emphasis of the debate to the vast majority of the provisions that are going to accomplish some of those things. reduce the deficit, bring down costs, make health insurance available and affordable and secure for most americans. that's really the meat of the matter. not the distraction of whether it's a co-op or a public option. that's a small part of this. and i think he did a good job kind of reprioritizing our debate in that regard. >> well, senator graham, let me ask you, because when they start
talking, democrats do about it as a distraction, it certainly increases my feeling that we're not going to end up with a public option. republicans have been fighting that. why not take yes for an answer and work with democrats to find a compromise? >> well, i think the public option is dead. it's probably been dead a long time because the public is very afraid. 85% of the people with private health insurance like what they've got and they understand if the public option is part of any reform measure, private insurers cannot compete against the government over time. i think one thing we can say if the deficit matters, which i'm glad to hear it does, and the public option's unacceptable, then the house bill is dead, we should just throw it in the garbage can, because it's $239 billion added to the deficit. it has a public option. it looks like all the action now is in the senate. >> i'm going to get to this question in just a minute. the president praised you for the fact that you worked with
ted kennedy to pass children's health care and schip, as it's known, is government health insurance. so if you can accept government health insurance for schip, why can't you accept some form of it for all the rest of american? >> it was a block grant to the states where the states ran it. that's why it worked. if we would do that in federal health care, i think we'd be a lot better off because we'd have 50 state laboratories developing their own plans for their own demographics. utah isn't massachusetts and massachusetts is not utah. you can say that about every other state. you know, we're talking about 306 million american people, 85% of whom basically think their health insurance is better than anything they can get. do we need to reform? yeah. but think about it. if you deduct -- they say 47 million people. the president said 30 million in his speech. if you deduct the 6 million who basically work for companies that provide health insurance but they don't buy it, if you deduct the 11 million people who
really qualify for chip and or medicaid, you deduct the 9 million who can afford it and deduct the 6 million of undocumented workers, it comes down to 15 million people. so we're going to throw out a whole system because of 15 million people who we could subsidize and help without ruining the whole system and we're going to save money, we're going to save taxes and have less spending, we're going to have the greater choices. come on, we're living in the real world here. >> all right. let me go to another issue, and i think we all have talking about that. that is cost. the president pledged that this huge new government program will pay for itself. let's watch. >> i will not sign it if it adds one dime to the deficit now or in the future, period. >> senator conrad, you're chairman of the senate budget committee, let's take a look at
the numbers and let's put them up on the screen. the non-partisan congressional budget office projects the main house bill will add $239 billion to the deficit in the first 10 years, but that includes 10 years of taxes and six years of services grew. the lewin group looked at the second 10 years of the plan and they said it would add a trillion dollars more to the deficit. senator conrad, how do you get from a trillion dollars plus to not adding a dime to the deficit? >> because that plan is a plan out of one committee in the house and it's not going to pass. what -- the only thing that has a prospect of passing is what is happening in the senate, in the finance committee, where three democrats and three republicans have been given the responsibility to come up with a proposal for our colleagues, and the proposal that we are developing is fully paid for, bends the cost curve in the right way, extends coverage to 94% of the american people, not everybody, but 94% is a big
improvement over where we are now, dramatically improves the insurance market because it reforms it, improves the delivery system by providing big incentives to adopt the best practices that are out there. those systems that we know are working like intermountain out in utah, which is outstanding -- >> let me ask you a question. you talk about the gang of six, which is six leaders, you're part of it, on the senate finance committee. are you going to reach a compromise this week that republicans and democrats sign onto? >> we hope to. we meet again on monday. we have people working all weekend, a number of us have worked through the weekend, we think we're very close to an agreement, and i want to repeat the agreement that we have, the congressional budget office has told us is fully paid for, bends the cost curve in the right way and does extend coverage to 94% of the people. >> let me bring senator hatch into this. first of all, do you believe that they've got a deal that's going to pay for itself?
secondly, the president says, look, even if it doesn't, we're going to have a deficit trigger, so if we don't get all the savings we think we're going to get from medicare, we will automatically cut savings. why isn't that enough for you? >> that also pushes us into a public plan even more so that the federal government can control. looks, you said there aren't going to be any increases in taxes. how about the the 25% of seniors on medicare advantage? they're going to cut medicare advantage by $130 billion as part of raising revenues. they're going to have an employer mandate, at least a form of employer mandate that's going to hurt low-income employees. they have an individual mandate that if you earn more than 300% of the federal poverty level, you'll be paying up to $3800. you can go on and on how even with all the work that i and fellow senators worked for in the senate finance committee,
you're talking about almost a trillion dollars. that's one year after the presidential election of 2012. interesting, isn't it? i can go on and on. all i can say is i just do not believe that they're going to have the republican support on this type of an approach. and i can tell you right now people all over the country don't want this. >> all right. you mentioned medicare. it brings us to the president's claim that he can squeeze hundreds of billions of dollars out of medicare without in any way endangering or cutting services to seniors. let's watch. >> the only thing this plan would eliminate is the hundreds of billions of dollars in waste and fraud as well as unwarranted subsidies in medicare that go to insurance companies. >> senator mccaskill, do you really believe that that's possible, that you can take hundreds of billions of dollars out of medicare without cutting services to seniors? >> well, i don't know how many ads you've seen for scooters on
cable tv, but i see a lot of them. those are scooters paid for by the american people and a lot of them are going to folks who don't need scooters. it's one example of many examples where we are paying for services or things instead of outcomes. and i think it's very important that we start focusing on the patient and what's good for the patient rather than five or ten or eight cat scans in one week so docs and hospitals are trying to pay for those machines. there's lots of things we can do without cutting any of the services and, frankly, medicare advantage, with all due respect to orrin, we just transferred a lot of taxpayer money to insurance companies. it hasn't brought down the cost of medicare. >> senator mccaskill, this is a question i get a lot in e-mails. if there is already hundreds of billions of dollars of waste and fraud in medicare, why would we want to trust government with an even bigger role in health care? >> you got that right. >> well, part of the problem is
that we've had the private sector come in and get congress to do things. a great example is medicare d. for gosh sakes, where are all the fiscal conservatives, five or six years ago, when they passed the program without any way to pay for it. it has not produced the kind of result the american people deserve. we need to pay for this. >> let me bring in senator graham, because jim cooper, one of the so-called blue dogs who teaches health care policy, says that between private and public health care, we waste about $700 billion a year, so it should be easy to find these kinds of savings. >> well, no one's found them before, and the only way you're going to find them now is to do something that no one's been willing to do, and that's get in here and change the system. you're not going to find $300 billion in medicare, medicaid
savings. this trigger idea that at a certain point in time we'll stop spending and go back and cut things has never worked anywhere else, so the trigger is a phony baloney idea. they said the same thing in tennessee about tenncare. listen to what the governor of tennessee had to say about that. i voted against medicare part d for the very reason we don't pay for things around here. seven republicans and seven democrats is revenue neutral. i'd like to talk to the president about it. here's one thing we've learned from this show today. the house bill is dead because deficit politics apparently not in the public option is unacceptable so that's a good start. if we can kill the house bill, let's sit down with kent conrad and others and see if we can do something reasonable. but it's not reasonable to assume we're going to cut medicare and medicaid costs to cut other people's insurance and have a trigger that works in washington. neither of those makes sense to
me. >> look, we have negotiated with medicare providers, hospitals, nursing homes, home health, hundreds of billions of dollars of savings. why are they really to come forward and negotiate those savings? because they know with more people covered, they're going to have more business. they're going to have fewer circumstances in which they don't get compensated, they don't get paid. so we have gotten hundreds of billions of dollars of savings from medicare providers because they know they're going to get more business. >> all right. we are almost -- >> can i add something? can i add something? what about the doctor fix? are we going to let it go into effect? it's supposed to go into effect every year. we never let it go into effect. that's exactly what's going to happen with these other cuts. >> we have really less than a minute less. i just want to ask senator graham one final question.
we're about to have joe wilson on the show. should he apologize on the house floor and end this controversy? >> i think joe needs to clear that what he did is wrong. he has apologized to the president. it's enough for me. it's good that the president accept it. i'd like to see this end. joe's a good man. he made a mistake. this needs to come to the end for the good of joe, south carolina, the country. i'll leave it up to his good counsel as to what to do next. he has apologized to the president and i appreciate that very much. >> senators, we're going to have to thank you all so much for coming in today and joining us. and we'll see how the fight over health care reform shakes out over the next few weeks. up next, our exclusive interview with joe wilson on the shout heard round the world. i'm ed whitacre, the new chairman of general motors.
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- ( crowd gasps ) - ( chirp ) joint custody. - phew! - announcer: get work done now. communicate in less than a second with nextel direct connect. only on the now network. deaf, hard of hearing and people with speech disabilities access www.sprintrelay.com. >> here now to talk about his outburst during president obama's speech is south carolina republican joe wilson. congressman, welcome to "fox news sunday." >> and, chris, it's an honor to be with you. i'm just grateful to be here. >> well, let's get right to it. house democrats have changed their mind. they decided they are going to
make you choose early this week either you formally apologize on the floor of the house to all of your colleagues for calling the president, saying you lie, or they are going to formally discipline you. what are you going to do, sir? >> i'm a civil person. i believe on civility on the floor. additionally, on wednesday night, i had just completed town hall meetings, 1700 in colombia, 15 in beaufort. people were passionate. they do not want government control of health care. so on wednesday night i had one of my sons said was a town hall moment. after the speech, i stayed for the whole speech -- >> let me just interrupt. we will get to wednesday night. i want to ask you first of all, though, what are you going to do this week? >> i am not going to apologize again. i apologized to the president on wednesday night. i was advised then thank you. now let's get on to a civil discussion of the issues.
but i've apologized one time. the apology was accepted by the president, by the vice president who i know. i am not apologizing again. in fact, i've been proven correct on the issue of citizen verification. the senate adopted it on friday and i'm very grateful on friday night the white house has now -- is now going to include it in their bill. >> let's -- we'll get to all of that, i promise. let's get to this question of the apology. you say you've apologized twice. >> no, no, once, once. >> you issued a statement, then you called the white house. why not apologize to your house colleagues? they say you broke the rules. >> my view is that the apology to the president, to the white house, his acceptance, the vice president's acceptance, people know my civility, they know that this was a one-time event and was out of frustration. i believe in the truth. what i heard was not true. >> so how will you feel? because that means that they're
going to vote, and they certainly will vote to rebuke you, some form of discipline, how are they going to make you feel when they make you stand in the well of the house and house speaker pelosi formally disciplines you. >> it's politics. this is exactly what the american people do not want to see, do not want to hear. they want to get, as the white house advised, let's get to the issues. let's discuss the issues. the bankrupting cost. the threat to senior citizens by the reduction of medicare. >> when you say politics, you think the democrats are playing politics? >> the democrats are playing politics. this is a way to divert attention from a bill that would cost 1.6 million jobs according to the national federation of independent business. it's a diversion from people looking at the bill and the concerns about this bill. >> let's go back to wednesday night and let's show the moment as it happened as the president of the united states was addressing congress. here it is.
>> the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegal. >> you lie! >> what do you think when you see that? >> well, i have respect for the president. i have respect for the office of the president. i would never do something like that again. >> but you did do it. >> yes. and i -- i just felt so provoked because i am on the committee, education and labor, i know the amendments that were on -- at ways and means and energy and commerce that the democrats voted down for citizenship verification. so i knew what he said was not true. i read the bill. i read all -- >> let me ask you because we're going to get into the details in a minute. do you think when the president said what he said there that he was lying? >> i believe he was misstating the facts. >> you didn't say that. you said you lie. >> i truly would have said it in a different way if i'd had time. i respect again the president, but what he said was not accurate and that's why i'm glad
they've now agreed to having citizen verification on friday. >> now, in today's "new york times," i have to bring this up to you, columnist maureen dowd says that the shout she believes suggests, the shout was based on race and she wrote this. wilson clearly did not like being lectured and even rebuked by the brainy black president presiding over the majestic chamber. question, is mr. obama's race an issue for you? >> no, no, hey, i respect the president. actually, there's a relationship in a way, his wife -- her family's from georgetown. my family's from next door in mcclellanville. i have a great respect for the obama family. >> afterwards, as we said, you issued a written statement which seemed to be an apology. you called the white house and certainly there apologized. since then you have said, look, i was following the directions of the republican party. you also, if i may, put up this
video. take a look. >> on these issues, i will not be muzzled. i will speak up and speak loudly against this risky plan. >> congressman, if you're fundraising off the incident, are you really sorry? >> i would never do this on purpose. but i have been by national democrats, by moveon.org been named the number one target for the elections next year. i appreciate the overwhelming response from people to be involved. i will not be muzzled. i will be speaking on behalf of the american people, but i will be doing it very civilly. >> since wednesday, you've raised over a million dollars in campaign funds. do you think this has helped you or hurt you in your home district? >> in the district, it's been overwhelming, chris. people have just been loving, actually, and very wonderful, calling my wife, roxanne, our
sons, our whole family. our office has been overwhelmed with phone calls, letters and contributions. i'm grateful for each. >> let's get to the issue that got you so riled up. i promised we would do that. are illegals banned from the president's reform plan or not? let's take a look at house bill 3200. perhaps the main house bill. under the title, no federal payment for undocumented aliens. it says, nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments for affordability credits or subsidies on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the united states. congressman, as you read that, wasn't the president right and you wrong? >> no, because there's no enforcement and that's why they've agreed and so did the senate on saturday -- on friday adopt enforcement provisions and then the white house itself on friday had said it will be changeded to have enforcement provisions. i read the bill. i was familiar with the amendments. i knew it didn't have any meaning at all.
>> since the incident, and you're quite right, the white house has said the president is going to put even stronger enforcement measures in his plan to make sure that illegals do not participate, the senate finance committee has said it's going to do that as well. do you feel that your outburst is responsible for that? >> i do think i brought the issue up. yes, i do. and i'm grateful even for recognition in the "new york times" as they discuss this particular issue. it was -- the lead editorial in the "wall street journal" friday about truth and what was in the bill. i think i've really -- i think, and i didn't mean to do this, but i believe i've certainly brought attention to all the issues, but one that's, again, crucial to me is jobs. and this bill will cost jobs at a time of high unemployment. >> so let's go back, because you say you are not going to apologize again, and that means that you're going to be brought to the house floor sometime this
week in front of all of your colleagues, stand there on the house floor in the well of the chamber and speaker pelosi is going to read out a discipline, a rebuke of you. is that going to be tough for you? are you going to feel proud? are you going to feel embarrassed? >> it's going to be tough. i respect my colleagues. i support civility. as my son said, this was a town hall moment. but i respect civility and i promote civility in every way, particularly on the house floor. >> but you're not sorry you did it in the sense that you think you did the wrong thing. >> well, i did. i apologized to the president one time and it was accepted by the president, the vice president, and so i -- i believe that the american people know that i'm a civil person, a person who respects the institution of the house. i have apologized to the president. i believe that is sufficient. >> congressman wilson, we want to thank you so much for coming in today. please come back.
it will be an interesting week for you. it's been an interesting few days already. up next, tea party protestors come to the nation's capital, but did their march through washington resonate through the halls of congress? could someone toss me an eleven sixteenths wrench over here? here you go. eleven sixteenths... (announcer) from designing some of the world's cleanest and most fuel-efficient jet engines... to building more wind turbines than anyone in the country... the people of ge are working together... creating innovation today for america's tomorrow. thanks! no problem!
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>> that was a taste of the tea party protestors, tens of thousands of them marched on washington saturday and made their voices heard on the national mall. it's time once again for our sunday regulars and, yes, the gang's all here. brit hume, fox news senior political analyst and contributors mara liasson of national public radio, bill kristol of "the weekly standard," and juan williams also from national public radio. brit, welcome back from your summer vacation. we missed you. >> thank you. >> we're going to put you right to work. what do you make of the taxpayer march on d.c.? what does it say to the obama white house? what does it say to the republicans? >> it is a further reminder that on this issue regardless of what the polls say about who favors what, almost all the intensity is with the people who are resisting the president and the democrats in congress on this issue. even i would say congressman wilson whom you had a very interesting interview with, you see what kind of a man he is. this is a man most of us had not
heard of, i think it's fair to say in the country and to many of us in the media. he's a pretty quiet guy. his outburst, these town hall meetings were held with this same sort of atmosphere you saw on the mall yesterday, you add it all up and what you have is all the intensity on the issue is resistance, and that's something that all these blue dog democratics and others who are considering voting for this bill have to worry about because we're now dealing with an electorate who -- the opponents among whom will vote against you on this issue alone. people are for the bill, are for other things, it's not a single issue, make or break. >> mara, do you agree that it's not just health care. i think we're talking about the whole obama agenda with a lot of big government and a lot of big spending. do you think all the intensity is with the opponents? >> i think that when you look at polling, the thing that's changed the most as the president's numbers has gone
down is the intense of the opposition has gone up. that's true. what we don't know and what we'll know soon when there's a plan with details people can look at, whether this is a small but extremely intense opposition to this or whether this is a big, broad reaction to the government interventions in all sorts of parts of the economy. and i'm not sure yet what it is. there's no doubt that the intensity is very fierce against this and certainly some blue dog democrats are going to be worried about it, but i do think what the president did this week is he moved health care farther to the center, made it a little more comfortable for moderate democrats to vote for it. >> before we get to the president's speech, i want to stay on the so-called tea party movement, if you will. is it all good for the gop or is there a risk for republicans that some of the more extreme protestors could turn off moderates, could turn off the
center? >> i think there's always that risk. people have said about a serious piece of legislation, i don't think we should underestimate the importance of health care itself. this is a huge effort to transform something very important to people's lives. 1/6 of the u.s. economy. this isn't a tax cut. tax cut, you ram it through, make some squirrely arguments, taxes go up, go down. it has consequences on people's job. but it's only monday. this is health care. that this thing is being rammed through offends people. i talked to people who went to town hall meetings. they went because they thought this was their one chance to stand up and say wait a second. you haven't read your own bill. mara said we'll wait 'til we see the actual plan. there's no plan yet with details. the thing has to be passed within a month. it's a total outrage. it's never happened in american history. it's something that will change every family's life. it's the biggest piece of
domestic legislation, what do you think, 25 years, 35 years, and if this thing -- they wanted to jam this through before the august recess. that's really wrong. just from the point of view of how a democracy should work. and that's what's most upset people. >> it's not jamming through to the point that it is democracy at work when people are having debate and discussion about the particulars of the bill. that's the good of people turning out in large numbers yesterday, people who were saying they have specific concerns. i'm all for that. i think people should be involved in the country. but the question is if you don't know what you're talking about exactly, how can you have a protest? the big criticism against president obama, he has not spoken out until now. he has not made it clear what he believes in. even the speech he gave this week, there are details missing. people have every right to say give me the details. at this point, what are you protesting against? that's why there was a flavor to yesterday. >> you don't think we have a
pretty strong sense of what the president's calling for? >> now we do. now we have a clearer sense after the speech on wednesday that he wants everybody to either be covered, to have -- you have to buy your own insurance or be covered or pay a penalty, he wants employers to do it, we understand that and we understand he favors the public option, but as you revealed in your interview, it's not likely to stand by and allow it to block final passage. but that's not -- i don't think that's what the people who are here and there were passionate people here yesterday were out here about. i think they were still talking about death panels. >> is that what you think this is about, death panels, unreasoned opposition? >> well, no, i don't. i think that the core elements of the proposal including its cost have been a matter of record for some time. there are varying estimates. but there are no estimates that say any of these measures are not going to add to the deficit. senator conrad was talking about producing a bill that won't do that, but he hasn't done that
yet, nor have the other committees that work at that in the senate. what you have is the possibility of the entry of the federal government into the insurance market which worries a lot of people. it is not hard to understand why people believe that that so-called public option will lead to employers by the thousands, maybe millions abandoning the health care coverage they now provide, paying the fine, which will be less, and leading inevitably toward more and more people getting their insurance from the government, a single payer system. they're afraid of the cost. they don't like the direction it's going and they don't like the substance of what they're hearing. they don't like the details they have heard. they don't like them a lot. and i think the striking thing about the president's speech, chris, was that there was very little outreach to the center and to the right on this issue. it seemed to me from what he was
saying was he was trying to keep things together in the house of representatives where it was thought a bill would pass. >> it seems to me that what the president was trying to do was not -- he doesn't expect to get many, if any, republican votes. he's trying to bridge the divide in his own party, reassure independenting and reassure seniors. >> yes. >> on that basis, how did he do? >> i thought he certainly did a lot of good for his own party. they only think they can get one, maybe two republicans. i think -- >> in the senate. >> in the senate. i think he is saying this is not going to have a public option in it. i think he did rev up his base by big pugnacious against the republicans. that's what they wanted him to do. at the same time, he kind of threw a couple olive branches to the republicans, not very meaningful, but substantive ideas of theirs that he adopted.
i think he tried to do a lot in the speech. i think the biggest black hole in there is he didn't say how he was going to pay for a good half of the cost of this, and that's what people are worried about. they don't believe it's possible to cover 30 million more people without -- >> all right. >> he is leading his party off a cliff and speaker pelosi is going to lead her party off a cliff if they rebuke joe wilson. he's already apologized if they try and humiliate this man. i hope a lot of democrats say slow down, let's take a look at this bill. >> we have to take a break. when we come back, are democrats ready to give up on afghanistan eight years after the 9/11 attacks were launched from that country? our panel's thoughts after the break. ve the american lifestyle without energy. we have all this energy here in the u.s. we have wind.
we have solar, obviously. we have lots of oil. i think natural gas is part of the energy mix of the future. i think we have the can-do. we have the capability. we have the technology. the solutions are here. we just need to find them here. (voice 2) how bad is it? (voice 1) traffic's off the chart... (voice 2) they're pinging more targets... (voice 3) isolate... prevent damage... (voice 2) got 'em. (voice 3) great exercise guys. let's run it again. >> on this day in 1814, francis
>> the larger our own military footprint there, the more our enemies can seek to drive a wedge between us and the afghan population. >> i don't think there's a great deal of support for sending more troops to afghanistan. in the country or in the congress. >> senator carl levin and speaker nancy pelosi this week, just part of the growing opposition in the democratic party to the president possibly sending more u.s. troops to afghanistan.
and we're back now with brit, mara, bill and juan. so, juan, if the president decides in the next few weeks to send tens of thousands more u.s. troops to afghanistan as apparently u.s. commanders on the ground want, how much resistance is he going to face in his own party? >> he's going to face substantial resistance. he's already sent 21,000 more this year. we're now up to 68,000 americans there. the whole question is what is this intended to accomplish? senator russ feingold said let's set a timetable. if the surge had impact in iraq, would a surge in afghanistan deal with the problems there or mean we are entrenched in a war where victory seems difficult. the recent elections seemed to have fraud and corruption.
i was at the white house this week, and you still hear a language talk about this being a war of necessity, not the war of choice. if iraq was the war of choice, this is the one we've got to win to stop the taliban and al qaeda -- >> speaking to the veterans of foreign wars last month, president obama called afghanistan a war of necessity. this is an issue you've talked about a lot since he became president. do you think barack obama will take on the left wing, the anti-war wing base of his party on afghanistan? >> i think it's doubtful that he will, but listen to me and what senator levin says. it sounds very familiar, if you remember what democrats and other critics were saying at the time of the surge in iraq. what we learned i think from iraq is that a counter-terrorism strategy relies initially on the suppression of the violence, and
in that atmosphere other good things can take place. but that's job one. if you don't have enough troops to do it, you can't do it and you can't succeed. the question for barack obama is democratic resistance or not, is he willing to fail in afghanistan, and i worry that he may be. >> what do you think about specifically this question, because so far the president hasn't shown a lot of stomach for when it comes to it taking on the left wing of his own party in a variety of issues. is he going to do that on afghanistan? people talk about that marker, war of necessity. >> i think he has no choice. the other question is the left going to be in full revolt against him. i don't think that will happen either. i think carl levin is saying let's not send more troops until we see if the afghan troops can step up. i think this president has to, quote, win, however he defines it, the war on afghanistan.
he said george bush made a mistake. he drew the front line in the wrong country. he has to listen to the generals, do what they say and succeed in afghanistan. i don't think he can afford to leave afghanistan to the taliban. i just don't. >> i think he's going to accept the recommendations of the generals, that we can't win with counter-terrorism. we need counter-insurgency. when he makes that tough decision and a lot of people like nancy pelosi just wants to get out and senator levin wants to gradually get out, maybe who's supporting president obama? john mccain and joe wilson. i said -- i've known joe wilson a long time. he's been saying to his conservative friends, some of whom are going south on afghanistan, we have to fight and win there.
i think president obama will do the right thing. his chief of staff, rahm emanuel is nervous about it. >> what's at staple -- stake in afghanistan? juan brings up the point it appears we had rampant election fraud in the presidential election last month. what are the chances we'll ever get a viable state there? >> the chances that we can suppress the taliban are very great. the chances of a decent viable state are pretty good. the chances if we do suppress the taliban and pakistan not falling apart, is great. and the cost of defeat is unacceptable. the fact that the taliban would drive us out of the place from which 9/11 was launched, i think the consequences around the
world, throughout the middle east, the islamic world, the message would be disastrous. >> there are some conservatives who are very much opposed. let's not make this into democrats and liberals are opposed. brit, i think you're out of step with president obama. president obama has taken on his left wing, in fact, sending more troops already to afghanistan and in bombing the drones over pakistan. i don't think there's any question, this is a man engaged in fighting a war on terror. to say he's weak-kneed or whimpish on this war effort -- >> i didn't say he was, juan. i agree with you. i hope you're right. i just fear that when it gets down to it politically, he won't do it. he won't send the extra troops. i hope you're right. i'm glad to hear you say what you said. >> i think the key thing is that he wants this somehow to be
resolved before you get into a primary process going into the next presidential race. that's fair to say. >> all right. thank you, panel. see you next week. good to have you back, mr. hume. don't forget to check out the latest edition of panel plus where our group here continues the discussion on our website, foxnews.com/fns, shortly after the show ends. please check out our blog, wallace watch, at foxnewssunday.com, where we have a number of interesting features. he ran off with his secretary! she's 23 years old! - oh, come on. - enough! you get half and you get half. ( chirp ) team three, boathouse? ( chirp ) oh yeah-- his and hers. - ( crowd gasping ) - ( chirp ) van gogh? ( chirp ) even steven. - ( chirp ) mansion. - ( chirp ) good to go. ( grunts ) timber! ( chirp ) boss? what do we do with the shih-tzu? - ( crowd gasps ) - ( chirp ) joint custody. - phew! - announcer: get work done now. communicate in less than a second with nextel direct connect. only on the now network.
♪ i always feel like somebody's watching me. ♪ (announcer) it's right here. it's easy. >> as president obama pushed congress the other night on health care reform, there were all kinds of forces at work behind the scenes. and none is more formidable than our power player of the week. >> i think it starts the final phase, you know, of this process, which is taking votes. >> that was andy stern, the morning after the president's speech to congress. stern is head of the service employees international union or seiu. with two million members, it's the fastest growing union in america, which makes him one of labor's most powerful voices. >> there are 435 people down the street that have to make a choice about the future of our country. >> stern is using that voice, but he seems to understand why the president is hedging.
were you disappointed by what the president said about the public option? >> he's not the dictator here. he's part of the american process. in the end there will be a vote in the senate on the public option. >> stern knows all about votes. he showed us the war room where two dozen people mobilize seiu workers across the country. so if you hear congressman x is wavering -- >> you send work out to the district. >> seiu, which represents health care workers, public service employees, private security guards and janitors, worked hard last year to elect democrats. they spent $71 million putting 100,000 volunteers in the field. and making 13 million phone calls, and it paid off. how much clout does seiu have? >> i think we're heard. >> if you make a phone call to a top white house official, does it get answered? >> we feel like we have a lot of access.
>> in fact, while we were talking, people from seiu were at the white house helping the president sell health care reform. andy stern was a social service worker in 1973 when he got involved with the union. >> i was the last one in a room at a meeting i went to because they were serving pizza and i was elected unanimously as the assistant shop steward and here i am. >> he sees unions as a way to help working people lead better lives. and his current effort is part of that. the fight for health care reform is personal for you, isn't it? >> yes, it is. >> seven years ago, his daughter cassie died from complications after spinal surgery. >> do you think about cassie often during this debate? >> she'd be 21 # next week. and i really think about, you know, what would have happened if we'd had a health care system that really could take care of people a lot more effectively. she'd still be here with me. >> stern says unions must adapt to a global economy, but the
basic mission is the same. >> it's about seeing millions of people have a chance to live their dreams. and it gets me up every day, excited and believing that america again can face the challenges we do in a 21st century and build a new economy that makes dreams come true. >> stern says after health care reform the president has promised to push the employee free choice act or card check. but acknowledges they may have to find other way to make union organizing easier without taking away the secret ballot from workers. and that's it for today. have a great week. we'll see you next "fox news sunday." captioning by captionmax www.captionmax.com